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| A book of parody songs updated in 2012 and circulated privately by members of the Ohio State University marching band included a sendup of the Holocaust with joking references to furnaces used in Nazi concentration camps and the train cars used to transport Jews to their deaths. The Holocaust song, called “Goodbye Kramer,” whose lyrics haven't been previously disclosed, includes lines about Nazi soldiers “searching for people livin’ in their neighbor’s attic,” and a “small town Jew…who took the cattle train to you know where.” [...] But a second, more in-depth investigation of the band, commissioned by the school in late 2014, mentioned that the updated songbook contained a “highly offensive song regarding Jews,” although it didn't disclose the lyrics. “Head to the furnace room, ‘Bout to meet your fiery doom,” one line of the song reads. “Oh the baking never ends, It goes on and on and on and on.” [...] Lee Auer, the former band member who wrote the 2012 songbook’s introduction, said: “I don’t think you are going to find many 19-year-olds who don’t joke about those things.” |
https://twitter.com/mrauerhms
At least two others come to mind. Maybe three.
They started with new leadership last year, I believe.
Too bad because they got alot of popularity from those youtube videos.
Bottom line, kids and adults don't always use their heads. Shame
FYI, google Stamford's band, crazy stuff there too
Joey, WTF? Go see a fucking counselor, because you have issues. And maybe use at least half your brain before posting sometimes.
Holy shit, that's probably the dumbest thing I've seen posted here.
Except for lumpy calves...
Bravo, asshole...
There will always be idiots and assholes in the world. Life is better when you aren't bothered by every single one.
Quote:
Team songs came to light, the world would puke on itself. These are playful stupid joking songs that teenagers laugh about. No one is marching anyone into an oven ffs. Enough with the outrage over every little thing every single person does, my lord when does it end?
Holy shit, that's probably the dumbest thing I've seen posted here.
Except for lumpy calves...
Bravo, asshole...
He still has lumpy calves you nitwit and he still sucks.
Awful though. Bad day for the Buckeyes with the Bosa suspension, too.
I gotta agree with you on this one...and I don't think I'd just laugh it off if I heard one.
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Team songs came to light, the world would puke on itself. These are playful stupid joking songs that teenagers laugh about. No one is marching anyone into an oven ffs. Enough with the outrage over every little thing every single person does, my lord when does it end?
Joey, WTF? Go see a fucking counselor, because you have issues. And maybe use at least half your brain before posting sometimes.
A counselor because I think knucklehead teenagers who are already stupid saying something stupid is nothing to really get all worked up over? Go look at the guy's twitter account that was posted, he's a beloved band teacher in his native OH, hardly a Nazi or a bad guy. He was an idiot when he was 19, big deal.
I don't think is actually making fun of those deaths or the tragedy, I really don't. I bet if you ask every single one of those kids now, they would tell you it was stupid and they didn't mean they were giddy over the holocaust. People that age DO NOT GET IT, they just don't realize what they're saying half the time especially in the petri dish that college is. Do all of you calling me stupid or saying I'm in desperate need of help REALLY think that these are Anti-Semites running rampant and causing destruction? They are stupid words song by stupid people and you think it deserves this level of just "oh my god I can't believe it" outrage?
Let's use our brains here since so many of you claim I'm not doing that currently. Do you think the magnitude of what occurred is what's going through some fat band dork's mind while he's rhyming things to sing on a bus? The Rugby team at JMU sang songs about rape and blowing people up IRA style. It's a fucking parody about something terrible that people half wittedly sing about to be rude or edgy or offensive. This happened 8 years ago on a bus between teenagers, why is it treated like they OKd the drone attack of a village of Jews or are out stoning gay people? Was it stupid? Sure. Do they deserve to be told it was stupid? Sure. Does the entire world need to spun up about teenage stupidity? No, never has, never will. Teenagers are idiots, they say and do idiot things often with no idea what they are saying or doing.
Quote:
In comment 12394275 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Team songs came to light, the world would puke on itself. These are playful stupid joking songs that teenagers laugh about. No one is marching anyone into an oven ffs. Enough with the outrage over every little thing every single person does, my lord when does it end?
Holy shit, that's probably the dumbest thing I've seen posted here.
Except for lumpy calves...
Bravo, asshole...
He still has lumpy calves you nitwit and he still sucks.
And you're still a fucking moron for saying it...
Quote:
In comment 12394275 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Team songs came to light, the world would puke on itself. These are playful stupid joking songs that teenagers laugh about. No one is marching anyone into an oven ffs. Enough with the outrage over every little thing every single person does, my lord when does it end?
Joey, WTF? Go see a fucking counselor, because you have issues. And maybe use at least half your brain before posting sometimes.
A counselor because I think knucklehead teenagers who are already stupid saying something stupid is nothing to really get all worked up over? Go look at the guy's twitter account that was posted, he's a beloved band teacher in his native OH, hardly a Nazi or a bad guy. He was an idiot when he was 19, big deal.
I don't think is actually making fun of those deaths or the tragedy, I really don't. I bet if you ask every single one of those kids now, they would tell you it was stupid and they didn't mean they were giddy over the holocaust. People that age DO NOT GET IT, they just don't realize what they're saying half the time especially in the petri dish that college is. Do all of you calling me stupid or saying I'm in desperate need of help REALLY think that these are Anti-Semites running rampant and causing destruction? They are stupid words song by stupid people and you think it deserves this level of just "oh my god I can't believe it" outrage?
Let's use our brains here since so many of you claim I'm not doing that currently. Do you think the magnitude of what occurred is what's going through some fat band dork's mind while he's rhyming things to sing on a bus? The Rugby team at JMU sang songs about rape and blowing people up IRA style. It's a fucking parody about something terrible that people half wittedly sing about to be rude or edgy or offensive. This happened 8 years ago on a bus between teenagers, why is it treated like they OKd the drone attack of a village of Jews or are out stoning gay people? Was it stupid? Sure. Do they deserve to be told it was stupid? Sure. Does the entire world need to spun up about teenage stupidity? No, never has, never will. Teenagers are idiots, they say and do idiot things often with no idea what they are saying or doing.
That is, without a doubt, the dumbest fucking explanation/justification I have ever read. But coming from you, it's no surprise...
--Being comfortable enough with this type of garbage to internally publish it; and
--Assuming that everyone else who comes in contact with this kind of behavior is supposed to either giggle and go along or stfu.
If you want to be offensive in consort with others who are equally offensive, have at it. When you rub the noses of Jews and others who are offended by this type of material into your shit, that takes it to a whole other level.
Joey, you really think it's ok to force others to giggle and go along, after putting this kind of stuff into a book?
Holy shit.
However, there are things to joke about and then there are things we should probably refrain from joking about in such callous manners. Yes, we get it, Rugby songs are pretty freaking bad, just like jokes that young Marines laugh at. Most will see them for what they are and will laugh it off in an uncomfortable manner (most likely). With that being said, there is a danger of it promoting an environment of certain mindset that may lead to group-think where an individual or a small group of members complaining about the callousness of songs or chants or whatever may be shouted down or ostracized as being overly sensitive pussies when a self reflection should be the proper course of action.
Sometimes our words and thoughts "for fun" become mindsets, which then may lead to actions that are problematic and regrettable.
I don't think is actually making fun of those deaths or the tragedy, I really don't. I bet if you ask every single one of those kids now, they would tell you it was stupid and they didn't mean they were giddy over the holocaust. People that age DO NOT GET IT, they just don't realize what they're saying half the time especially in the petri dish that college is. Do all of you calling me stupid or saying I'm in desperate need of help REALLY think that these are Anti-Semites running rampant and causing destruction? They are stupid words song by stupid people and you think it deserves this level of just "oh my god I can't believe it" outrage?
Let's use our brains here since so many of you claim I'm not doing that currently. Do you think the magnitude of what occurred is what's going through some fat band dork's mind while he's rhyming things to sing on a bus? The Rugby team at JMU sang songs about rape and blowing people up IRA style. It's a fucking parody about something terrible that people half wittedly sing about to be rude or edgy or offensive. This happened 8 years ago on a bus between teenagers, why is it treated like they OKd the drone attack of a village of Jews or are out stoning gay people? Was it stupid? Sure. Do they deserve to be told it was stupid? Sure. Does the entire world need to spun up about teenage stupidity? No, never has, never will. Teenagers are idiots, they say and do idiot things often with no idea what they are saying or doing.
Joey, this entire post is outrageous.
First off all, you're characterizing of them as teenagers and not college students is fucking stupid. Teenagers are children. College students, particularly college students who are part of such a cherished and respected group, absolutely should be held to a higher standard.
If you want to split hairs and say many of them are 18 or 19, then this whole dialogue is a lost cause. These aren't knucklehead teenagers, as you put it.
I'm not trying to come from some self-righteous position here. I went to Ohio State. Of course I said stupid shit... I still do. I've played beer pong back in college, had a ball go in and out of the red cup and say something stupid like "ugh, I got Jew'd." I'm sure everyone on this board has said dumb stuff in college. That's really not the point.
You are drawing some black and white line in the sand, where if it's not an atrocity where people are "being stoned", then it's not worthy of backlash. Yes, you said they should be criticized, but that's what's happening... so what the hell are you arguing?
Lastly, what is your gripe with accountability? Again, this isn't some party where a racist comment was made. This was in the damn song book and students were instructed to never share it with anyone, so clearly there was an awareness that what was happening was reprehensible. So if they're smart enough to realize that, why aren't you?
--Being comfortable enough with this type of garbage to internally publish it; and
--Assuming that everyone else who comes in contact with this kind of behavior is supposed to either giggle and go along or stfu.
If you want to be offensive in consort with others who are equally offensive, have at it. When you rub the noses of Jews and others who are offended by this type of material into your shit, that takes it to a whole other level.
Joey, you really think it's ok to force others to giggle and go along, after putting this kind of stuff into a book?
Holy shit.
Nicely stated, george.
Meh...my Marines were huffing and puffing too much to actually do cadence when I led platoon runs. That was during my Platoon Sergeant's slow runs.
I will admit that I was that jackass 2ndLt, who ended up with half his platoon falling out of the run on his first platoon run. Got into a heated discussion with my squadleaders and platoon sergeant about me demoralizing my Marines (I also threw in four rounds of O-Course and an hour of ground fighting) during this first platoon workout. So I compromised by making sure every single one of my Marines (even those in BCP) were able to complete a half marathon by the time our seven months in GTMO was complete.
Quote:They are stupid words song by stupid people and you think it deserves this level of just "oh my god I can't believe it" outrage? ot things often with no idea what they are saying or doing.
Do you mean the "oh my god I can't believe it" outrage" you demonstrated on another thread today in response to Greg from LI?
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RE: Do people go apeshit over jaguars the way they do lions?
Joey in VA : 2:28 pm : link : reply
In comment 12394010 Greg from LI said:
Quote: Because, if not, you could entertain yourself by shooting a bunch of jaguars.
What the fuck are you talking about? You just dreamed up shooting jaguars as a fun activity in a disease ridden shit hole of a country?
--Being comfortable enough with this type of garbage to internally publish it; and
--Assuming that everyone else who comes in contact with this kind of behavior is supposed to either giggle and go along or stfu.
If you want to be offensive in consort with others who are equally offensive, have at it. When you rub the noses of Jews and others who are offended by this type of material into your shit, that takes it to a whole other level.
Joey, you really think it's ok to force others to giggle and go along, after putting this kind of stuff into a book?
Holy shit.
manh,
I guess I don't see them rubbing it in anyone's noses. I'm in no way saying what they did was fine, it's disgusting but consider the source. Idiots doing idiot things doesn't shock or surprise me I suppose. If it was never meant to get out, then clearly they knew it wasn't right to do in the first place. Someone squealed, now they all look stupid and that's that.
What do you think should happen to them? Would you go after their careers now? Do you want the band taken apart and never to play again? What's the remedy for this? There are things happening on this planet that are downright evil every single day. There are evil, calculating people planet wide who deserve scorn and arrest and imprisonment and exile. Compared to what goes on daily around our own country and in our world, this doesn't upset me. If I was Jewish perhaps it would, maybe that's my disconnect here.
I do however respect the right to be offended, it's maddening to see people do it but for me it comes down to..what are we going to do about it and what was really harmed? Does their singing a terrible song and putting it in print materially affect you? I just don'[t see what the net effect is I guess. I'll be happy to listen, and I appreciate you actually discussing and not jumping to name calling like some of the halfwits on this thread (there I did it too).
For me it comes down to what I said above, what is the real impact of it? Who was harmed? Who was wronged, how will it negatively impact your life? Should they pay for this in some way? Issue an apology, admit you're stupid and move on (them not you obviously). I guess I'm assuming they know it was wrong and stupid and wish they never did it.
What's the point of releasing this stuff to the world? So people can elbow each other out of the way in the race to the top of Mount Outrage?
Yeah, I had ancestors who were cooked in Nazi ovens, but I should just get over it and have a good laugh about it. Maybe next they can write a song about how funny slavery was...
Joey, you're a fucking idiot.
So you're offended. Good. I don't know if I am, and I've got some tribe blood in the family. I would suggest it's an opportunity for a discussion on how people feel about this. Obviously they have something to learn, but that's all. This isn't hate speech. Far far from it.
Was it more a sacrifice by the jewish community or was it the deliberate killing of a particular ethnic group?
This came up again in discussion this week with some friends and I had little to contribute to the discussion. I guess I had never bothered to ask the question.
WideRight : 4:52 pm : link : reply
So calling him an idiot is dumbing down the dialogue just as those band members have.
Joey has been an angry lunatic on this board for a while now.
History And Meaning Of The Word ‘Holocaust' - ( New Window )
One major difference: The Oklahoma frat did not have any African American members, so they were racist xenophobes. While I don't know for sure, I would bet the OSU band had some jewish or part-jewish band members, so it was parody in poor taste..
People who joke about the Holocaust usually fit into two categories: the ignorant, who can be helped, and those who would have joined the fun at Babi Yar, given a chance. There are far more of the first group, and I think the kids in the band were mostly - probably all - in this category. Once they understand what they've been joking about, they will stop joking. A screening of Shoah will do them a lot more good than public excoriation on the Internet.
Antisemitic attitudes are very much on the rise throughout the US and Europe, as are antisemitic acts of violence. To see this as just kids being kids is amazingly lacking in both empathy for Jews and also suggests a lack of knowledge and concern for this increase in antisemitic violence.
Just because he may know something about football, doesn't mean he can't be a complete idiot in other subject areas.
As another poster said above - he's been an angry lunatic for quite some time...
Quote:
Signing about hanging nigg***s from a tree a few months ago at Oklahoma. There's stupid, but then there is behavior that outright can't be associated with a university.
One major difference: The Oklahoma frat did not have any African American members, so they were racist xenophobes. While I don't know for sure, I would bet the OSU band had some jewish or part-jewish band members, so it was parody in poor taste..
Maybe. But it could also be that the Jewish members of the band (if there were some) were almost expected to accept or at least not complain about it if they wanted to still be in the band. Sometimes the desire to be part of a group or better yet, the fear of being left out of a group is pretty freaking compelling. Compelling enough for one to swallow their pride or disgust to be part of something they see as being worth it.
Antisemitic attitudes are very much on the rise throughout the US and Europe, as are antisemitic acts of violence. To see this as just kids being kids is amazingly lacking in both empathy for Jews and also suggests a lack of knowledge and concern for this increase in antisemitic violence.
I dont agree anti semitism is on the rise. But whether it is or isnt, the holocaust, along with slavery.are two of the most.disgraceful events in human history. Joey apologizing for that is a joke.
Last year was one of the worst in a decade for violent anti-Semitic incidents, according to an annual study released Wednesday that tracked reported instances of threats and violence against Jews all around the world.
The report by Tel Aviv University’s Kantor Center for the Study of Contemporary European Jewry tracked thousands of incidents of anti-Semitism and counted 766 violent anti-Semitic acts including attacks, vandalism at cemeteries and religious sites, and direct threats against persons or institutions such as synagogues, schools, community centers and private properties.
Most of the incidents came in Europe and the United States.
Another article on an ADL study:
In Western Europe the survey found that 24% or 79 million adults out of a population of 332 million harbored anti-Semitic attitudes. Greece tops the list with 69% holding anti-Semitic attitudes (6.3 million out of an adult population of 9,168,164), followed by France with 37% (18 million out of 49,322,734 adults) and Spain with 29% (11 million out of 37,966,037). At the bottom of the list is Sweden with 4% (300,000 out of 7,446,803 adults), and the Netherlands 5% (650,000 out of 13,095,463). In Eastern Europe, the average level of anti-Semitic attitudes were 34% with Poland at (45%), Bulgaria at 44%, and Serbia at 42%, Estonia at 22%, and Slovenia at 27%. The Czech Republic registered the lowest at 13%.
In the Americas the ADL survey found lower overall levels of anti-Semitic attitude among adults than in Europe at 19%. Panama, where a wealthy Jewish community exists, 52% of adults harbored anti-Semitic attitudes (1.3 million out of 2.4 million), followed by Columbia 41% (12 million out of 30,461,308), and the Dominican Republic 41% (2.6 million out of 6,302,522. At the bottom of the list was the USA with 9% of adults harboring anti-Semitic attitudes, found most prominently among college age adults. 21 million Americans out of an adult population of 237,042,682 were identified as harboring anti-Semitic attitudes. Canadian adults with anti-Semitic attitudes amounted to 14% (3.8 million in a population of 27, 168,616 adults). Brazil was the third lowest with 16% (22 million in an adult population of 135,545,027).
The Middle East and North Africa registered the highest level of anti-Semitic attitudes among adults in the world with 74% of the total adult population – translating to roughly 200 million of an adult population of 275,147,371. The West Bank and Gaza Arabs scored a whopping 93% (1.9 million out of 2,030,259). Ironically, Iranian adults had the least anti-Semitic attitudes with 56%. Still, In Iran, 29 million in an adult population of 52,547, 264, expressed anti-Semitic views.
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By Jonathan Soch - The Washington Times - Wednesday, April 15, 2015
Last year was one of the worst in a decade for violent anti-Semitic incidents, according to an annual study released Wednesday that tracked reported instances of threats and violence against Jews all around the world.
The report by Tel Aviv University’s Kantor Center for the Study of Contemporary European Jewry tracked thousands of incidents of anti-Semitism and counted 766 violent anti-Semitic acts including attacks, vandalism at cemeteries and religious sites, and direct threats against persons or institutions such as synagogues, schools, community centers and private properties.
Most of the incidents came in Europe and the United States.
Another article on an ADL study:
Quote:
An Anti-Defamation League (ADL) 2014 survey found that more than a quarter (26%) of those surveyed in over 100 countries was infected with anti-Semitic attitudes. 54% never heard of the Holocaust. These are only some of the frightening headlines of The ADL 100: An Index of anti-Semitism. 53,100 adults in 102 countries and territories were surveyed. ADL estimates that 1.09 billion people out of a total adult population of 4,161,578,905 are deeply infected with anti-Semitic attitudes.
In Western Europe the survey found that 24% or 79 million adults out of a population of 332 million harbored anti-Semitic attitudes. Greece tops the list with 69% holding anti-Semitic attitudes (6.3 million out of an adult population of 9,168,164), followed by France with 37% (18 million out of 49,322,734 adults) and Spain with 29% (11 million out of 37,966,037). At the bottom of the list is Sweden with 4% (300,000 out of 7,446,803 adults), and the Netherlands 5% (650,000 out of 13,095,463). In Eastern Europe, the average level of anti-Semitic attitudes were 34% with Poland at (45%), Bulgaria at 44%, and Serbia at 42%, Estonia at 22%, and Slovenia at 27%. The Czech Republic registered the lowest at 13%.
In the Americas the ADL survey found lower overall levels of anti-Semitic attitude among adults than in Europe at 19%. Panama, where a wealthy Jewish community exists, 52% of adults harbored anti-Semitic attitudes (1.3 million out of 2.4 million), followed by Columbia 41% (12 million out of 30,461,308), and the Dominican Republic 41% (2.6 million out of 6,302,522. At the bottom of the list was the USA with 9% of adults harboring anti-Semitic attitudes, found most prominently among college age adults. 21 million Americans out of an adult population of 237,042,682 were identified as harboring anti-Semitic attitudes. Canadian adults with anti-Semitic attitudes amounted to 14% (3.8 million in a population of 27, 168,616 adults). Brazil was the third lowest with 16% (22 million in an adult population of 135,545,027).
The Middle East and North Africa registered the highest level of anti-Semitic attitudes among adults in the world with 74% of the total adult population – translating to roughly 200 million of an adult population of 275,147,371. The West Bank and Gaza Arabs scored a whopping 93% (1.9 million out of 2,030,259). Ironically, Iranian adults had the least anti-Semitic attitudes with 56%. Still, In Iran, 29 million in an adult population of 52,547, 264, expressed anti-Semitic views.
I don't think there is much upside in classifying someone as anti-semetic. Most people struggle to love themselves and those closest to them. Life is damn hard for all of us most of the time. Struggle breeds frustration and eventually the impulse to blame (ourselves and others). Whomever happens to appear to either be responsible for that frustration or who appears to be untouched by it are likely to become the explanation.
The way we have lived as a race since we started writing things down isn't ideal and it doesn't encourage selflessness as often as it encourages the drawing of lines in the sand.
I'm proud to say that so far I don't dislike any identified group of people more than another. We are all equally challenged the best I can tell.
Here is a link to Mark Twain's article (written in 1898) on the subject of antisemitism....
"Concerning the Jews" - ( New Window )
But still, it would be in poor taste and stupid.
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Struggle breeds frustration and eventually the impulse to blame (ourselves and others). Whomever happens to appear to either be responsible for that frustration or who appears to be untouched by it are likely to become the explanation.
There are people who are quite well off that are racists and antisemites. Henry Ford and Walt Disney were two of the most famous antisemites and they were hardly struggling. And I don't think the people who join the KKK do it because they think blacks are responsible for their struggles or that blacks appear to be untouched by whatever is causing their particular struggle.
Here is a link to Mark Twain's article (written in 1898) on the subject of antisemitism.... "Concerning the Jews" - ( New Window )
I can name a dozen people I know who have never struggled for food, shelter or any superficial thing in their entire life and yet they are miserable, angry and frustrated people. Our ability to adapt may be our greatest strength but it is also our greatest flaw in many ways. We will find a way to long for something we don't have no matter how much we do have, and we will too often blame another for it.
I don't find it helpful to focus on any one group no matter how often that group happens to be targeted. Pick any place on the planet and you will find the same struggle with only the colors and sounds to change the story.
Mark Twain re: jews....
What a world.
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Funny how no Jewish person who had relatives die in the Holocaust would write a song like that....why not, if it's all in good fun? And why try to hide the song if these guys didn't recognize how distasteful and hateful it was?
Antisemitic attitudes are very much on the rise throughout the US and Europe, as are antisemitic acts of violence. To see this as just kids being kids is amazingly lacking in both empathy for Jews and also suggests a lack of knowledge and concern for this increase in antisemitic violence.
I dont agree anti semitism is on the rise. But whether it is or isnt, the holocaust, along with slavery.are two of the most.disgraceful events in human history. Joey apologizing for that is a joke.
For the record, I am not apologizing for slavery or the holocaust and to suggest that is ridiculous. I'm not OK with what they did, I just don't get the point in getting so worked up over some stupid teenagers. Stupid people don't deserve attention, good or bad.
And before anyone plays the racist card, my late father in law was Jewish and I sat by that man's bedside day and night for a week as he failed and died. I carried his body to the hearse, I laid him to rest and I cried for him harder than I cried for any of my own family. So yes clearly I'm an anti-semite. In fact, he was one of the people who taught me that it wasn't smart to get all riled up about stupid people and what they dd or say.
And as for slavery, I have 2 black brother in laws and 6 biracial nieces and nephews who are the world to me, but yeah me not flying off the handle at what some band nerds think is funny makes me a slavery and holocaust apologist. The horses some of you ride in on would make falling off fatal.
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Team songs came to light, the world would puke on itself. These are playful stupid joking songs that teenagers laugh about. No one is marching anyone into an oven ffs. Enough with the outrage over every little thing every single person does, my lord when does it end?
Yeah, I had ancestors who were cooked in Nazi ovens, but I should just get over it and have a good laugh about it. Maybe next they can write a song about how funny slavery was...
Joey, you're a fucking idiot.
This is precisely my point and you proved it. There ARE songs about slavery and lynching black people, SAE in Oklahoma got busted for just that. It's the same fucking thing, yes it's outrageously stupid but that's what outrageously stupid people do when they get in groups.
NOWHERE did I say you should laugh about it, your reading comprehension is fucking awful. I said THEY laugh about it, they are stupid, why let it get you so riled up? People who are clearly stupid should not get to you, regardless of what they say. People get all worked up over the KKK, just laugh at them for being stupid, if you give in to their brand of hatred and return fire they got the exact response they want. Words give people power over you if you let them and I refuse to do that. You want a bunch of fat nerdy band dorks who are 19 years old to determine your mood because they don't have the common sense to know what is and is not OK to joke about? Stupid kids said stupid stuff, film at 11. Why is this so shocking to anyone? Why is this so frightening to you? You actually think I'm advocating them or what they said? Again, poor reading comprehension is your problem not mine, just like getting all whipped over some fuckhead teenagers is your problem, not mine.
Antisemitic attitudes are very much on the rise throughout the US and Europe, as are antisemitic acts of violence. To see this as just kids being kids is amazingly lacking in both empathy for Jews and also suggests a lack of knowledge and concern for this increase in antisemitic violence.
We clearly disagree and you're way off base on me. I have empathy for plenty of people who have been wronged, what I am suggesting is that kids don't really get that. I have no empathy because I think children are capable of thoughtless stupidity? That's quite a reach.
For someone I sort of considered at least a BBI friend, don't address me any further. You called me a raving lunatic not too far up the page, a real helpful addition to the discussion.
No one (at least not I) is saying you are anti-semitic or a racist.
But in this thread you have shown to be rather remarkably insensitive to, frankly, quite blatant anti-semitism.
Quote:
You're clearly not racist and don't share these thoughts. Accusing you of such is irresponsible. But I just don't see how you don't think this is a huge deal. It's hurtful, racist, and worst of all, institutionalized within a backwards program (till about a year ago).
For someone I sort of considered at least a BBI friend, don't address me any further. You called me a raving lunatic not too far up the page, a real helpful addition to the discussion.
First off, I'll address whomever I want. If you choose not to reply, that's totally up to you. Second... BBI friend? The reason I said you've been a raving lunatic for a while is because literally every exchange I've had for you for God knows how long has been you hurling insults at me. The only difference now is, this behavior is in many many posts these days. Not just me and select others. And it's not just insults... it's shit like this. What the Hell are you doing on this thread?
Even if you believe this shit, did you really think it would go over well? Did you think shrugging your shoulders at institutionalized Holocaust jokes was going to work out?
Yeah, I get it. You don't care about it working out... you're just speaking your mind. But this is just vile shit (what these kids did, not you), and defending it in any capacity just does nothing for yourself or anyone else.
p.s.-- Trying to explain racism and antisemitism with a one liner that can fit on a fortune cookie is what isn't helpful.
No one (at least not I) is saying you are anti-semitic or a racist.
But in this thread you have shown to be rather remarkably insensitive to, frankly, quite blatant anti-semitism.
Lou, kinda the point though, people don't really get what they don't see. Is Ohio chock full of Jews? My guess is that people singing those songs haven't met Jew one and haven't sat down with people who lived through that (for the record I have on several occasions) nightmare. Their lack of understanding is probably what drove this, not unmitigated antisemitism and hatred. At least in my view, stupidity and ignorance usually help pile up on the wrong side of an opinion.
I'm in no way exonerating or saying it's ok, that idea has to be put to bed quickly because it's just wrong. I think reacting to stupid teenagers with such vitriol and incredulity is a disservice to anyone with common sense. I guess I've seen enough racism and hatred up close that nothing surprises me and I've found that getting all bent out of shape doesn't help me. My former brother in law called my father in law a Jew within earshot of me..."I'm not painting that Jews house just because I'm living here"..I promise you those words were never uttered by him again after what I said to him in private. BUT he, as a grown man with a family whose own family was saved by this Jewish man, he had perspective and he was still hateful. A group of yokels on a bus as teenagers thinking they're clever isn't something that gets my dander up, because stupidity at that level is usually not worth anyone's time.
I may be a complete idiot for thinking it's not intentionally a bunch of Jew hating white kids, but rather some idiots with no perspective just trying to be edgy and cute.
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In comment 12395004 Mike in Long Beach said:
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You're clearly not racist and don't share these thoughts. Accusing you of such is irresponsible. But I just don't see how you don't think this is a huge deal. It's hurtful, racist, and worst of all, institutionalized within a backwards program (till about a year ago).
For someone I sort of considered at least a BBI friend, don't address me any further. You called me a raving lunatic not too far up the page, a real helpful addition to the discussion.
First off, I'll address whomever I want. If you choose not to reply, that's totally up to you. Second... BBI friend? The reason I said you've been a raving lunatic for a while is because literally every exchange I've had for you for God knows how long has been you hurling insults at me. The only difference now is, this behavior is in many many posts these days. Not just me and select others. And it's not just insults... it's shit like this. What the Hell are you doing on this thread?
Even if you believe this shit, did you really think it would go over well? Did you think shrugging your shoulders at institutionalized Holocaust jokes was going to work out?
Yeah, I get it. You don't care about it working out... you're just speaking your mind. But this is just vile shit (what these kids did, not you), and defending it in any capacity just does nothing for yourself or anyone else.
I'm shrugging my shoulders at a bad tasteless joke that I've heard about blacks, asians, africans, europeans, cubans, americans, whites, indians...it never ends. I've heard the N songs and jokes, every bad asian accent and hackneyed nursery rhyme people think is funny. Yes, I'm shrugging at it because I've heard it, you've heard it, the outrage isn't there for me because we live in a shitty world full of shitty people.
What am I going to do about it Mike? Should I launch a campaign to get the guy fired who wrote it? Should I force him to watch the holocaust films I saw in history class that made us all sick? Should I hold his head in the toilet and give him a swirly for all the mean things he said? You can't fix stupid brother, and I may be a lot of things but I am not that. Does that mean I condone it? Give me a break here. And fix it? Fix what, stupidity? Good luck doing that. The school will address it, purge it from the program hopefully and that will be that. WTF am I going to do about it? This WILL happen again, somewhere with some group and 99% of us will never know it's going on. Will you be outraged at what you can't see but know exists?
IDK, but I'd assume Ohio State and Columbus have plenty of Jews around, like many college towns. And knowing the Jewish proclivity to music, there were surely plenty of Jewish band members; it's mentioned in the linked article from the WSJ. One of my best friends from HS, a Jewish kid who was a terrific trumpet player, went to a big 10 school (Indiana U) for their excellent music program and the scholarship they offered him.
These are college kids - not HS kids where it might be more easily brushed off as puerile humor.
I simply think you are taking this too lightly, even making excuses for these kids that frankly don't deserve them. It's a bad argument to make IMO, and prolly not worth the time we've (BBI) has put into it.
But no shit it's anti-semitic.
But it boils down to this:
Joey in VA : 3:06 pm : link : reply
Team songs came to light, the world would puke on itself. These are playful stupid joking songs that teenagers laugh about. No one is marching anyone into an oven ffs. Enough with the outrage over every little thing every single person does, my lord when does it end?
This was your introduction to this thread. It had virtually nothing to do with the actual offense and everything to do with marginalizing any negative reaction here and everywhere else. I could be wrong, but I think the majority of BBI isn't saying these kids deserve a life-long banishment from their college or the music industry.
But you took it a step further and said not only is it not that big of a deal, but told people who could potentially be deeply offended by it "enough." That's why you've gotten flack for me and everyone else. Not necessarily for defending the action, but dismissively judging others for not reacting the way you did.
I have slight disagreement with you on "how bad it is." I do think it's worse than you say... simply because it wasn't at some house party one random Saturday night, but rather, an on-going joke within what's supposed to be one of the most respected groups in the American college experience... the Ohio State marching band.
But our disagreement there is small. The bigger disagreement is when you told others how to feel about it.
Personally, I think it's stupid what these band members did, but I'm not going to call for their heads. However, that also doesn't mean that I'm going to just chalk it up to "kids will be kids," as acts like these have the potential to instill in the group a certain mindset that some of the more impressionable members will take with them beyond this particular act once they leave the group. Racism and bigotry don't survive because there are such overwhelming number of racists and bigots in our nation. They survive because these racists and bigots are allowed to carry on their ways with people condoning it as something that isn't "so bad" or whatever other rationalization that people may hide behind.
There used to be lines in comedy that were not crossed as certain issues were just not to be joked about. Somewhere along the way that disappeared for certain people and all topics became an equal ground. It's all fair game or none of it is. I hope this comes across the right way. I am not saying it is right, and I am not appologizing for these kids (and they are kids) I'm trying to understand where it comes from inside them.
There used to be lines in comedy that were not crossed as certain issues were just not to be joked about. Somewhere along the way that disappeared for certain people and all topics became an equal ground. It's all fair game or none of it is. I hope this comes across the right way. I am not saying it is right, and I am not appologizing for these kids (and they are kids) I'm trying to understand where it comes from inside them.
That is precisely the comparison I thought of when I heard this come out. The stuff that is sung is not meant to be mean spirited no matter what it sounds like, I took this in the same vein.
But it boils down to this:
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If Rugby
Joey in VA : 3:06 pm : link : reply
Team songs came to light, the world would puke on itself. These are playful stupid joking songs that teenagers laugh about. No one is marching anyone into an oven ffs. Enough with the outrage over every little thing every single person does, my lord when does it end?
This was your introduction to this thread. It had virtually nothing to do with the actual offense and everything to do with marginalizing any negative reaction here and everywhere else. I could be wrong, but I think the majority of BBI isn't saying these kids deserve a life-long banishment from their college or the music industry.
But you took it a step further and said not only is it not that big of a deal, but told people who could potentially be deeply offended by it "enough." That's why you've gotten flack for me and everyone else. Not necessarily for defending the action, but dismissively judging others for not reacting the way you did.
I have slight disagreement with you on "how bad it is." I do think it's worse than you say... simply because it wasn't at some house party one random Saturday night, but rather, an on-going joke within what's supposed to be one of the most respected groups in the American college experience... the Ohio State marching band.
But our disagreement there is small. The bigger disagreement is when you told others how to feel about it.
On your last point I concede. It really is something I believe in, that telling people how to feel is NEVER OK and I guess I did that and for that I am sorry. My initial post was more of a "here we go again" with months of dissection, people's lives being disrupted who did something when they were stupid teenagers and the invariable outcry and eventual virtual beatdown they will receive.
Perhaps I was too hasty in my statement, but as BigBlueKeys just alluded to, my first thought was the Rugby songs we used to sing and how vile they were but not one person really meant any of the words.
Some people will take it in stride and chalk it up to nothing more than "kids being kids." Others will take exceptions to such despicable things being said, especially if we are to believe that these are kids saying them. Why are we condoning kids saying such callous and stupid things and letting it pass because it's been done before in various rugby or whatever else competitions or lockerrooms? Have we become so lackadaisical about teaching proper respect and values that we just chalk it up to some right of passage for kids just being stupid?
I'm just throwing out what the other side may be thinking with regards to this topic of discussion.
At first, because I don't see it as hateful and because I don't take it further I wouldn't think others would. But you are right that a few may end up taking it way too far as they see it as acceptable. I would be more concerned at truly being offensive before thinking it was recruiting racists.
On a serious note, if you were a rugby coach would you be worried about your job because you heard your kids sing these songs? Do you have to stop them now?
As Ronnie pointed out upstream there is the potential for a mindset creep to occur where the reprehensible becomes accepted or tolerated when left unchallenged.
One courageous student standing up and demanding this stupidity be ended might have stopped this early on. Then again maybe that courageous kid would have been "shunned." what greater honor than to be shunned for doing the right thing?
He's talking about empowering an idiot or idiots by reacting too strongly to the fact that they're idiots or extremely immature. Chide them and move on.
Unless they drink out of your beer. Then you kick their ass.
For the record, I'm not sure I agree with him, but I certainly understand his point of view.
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By Jonathan Soch - The Washington Times - Wednesday, April 15, 2015
Last year was one of the worst in a decade for violent anti-Semitic incidents, according to an annual study released Wednesday that tracked reported instances of threats and violence against Jews all around the world.
The report by Tel Aviv University’s Kantor Center for the Study of Contemporary European Jewry tracked thousands of incidents of anti-Semitism and counted 766 violent anti-Semitic acts including attacks, vandalism at cemeteries and religious sites, and direct threats against persons or institutions such as synagogues, schools, community centers and private properties.
Most of the incidents came in Europe and the United States.
Another article on an ADL study:
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An Anti-Defamation League (ADL) 2014 survey found that more than a quarter (26%) of those surveyed in over 100 countries was infected with anti-Semitic attitudes. 54% never heard of the Holocaust. These are only some of the frightening headlines of The ADL 100: An Index of anti-Semitism. 53,100 adults in 102 countries and territories were surveyed. ADL estimates that 1.09 billion people out of a total adult population of 4,161,578,905 are deeply infected with anti-Semitic attitudes.
In Western Europe the survey found that 24% or 79 million adults out of a population of 332 million harbored anti-Semitic attitudes. Greece tops the list with 69% holding anti-Semitic attitudes (6.3 million out of an adult population of 9,168,164), followed by France with 37% (18 million out of 49,322,734 adults) and Spain with 29% (11 million out of 37,966,037). At the bottom of the list is Sweden with 4% (300,000 out of 7,446,803 adults), and the Netherlands 5% (650,000 out of 13,095,463). In Eastern Europe, the average level of anti-Semitic attitudes were 34% with Poland at (45%), Bulgaria at 44%, and Serbia at 42%, Estonia at 22%, and Slovenia at 27%. The Czech Republic registered the lowest at 13%.
In the Americas the ADL survey found lower overall levels of anti-Semitic attitude among adults than in Europe at 19%. Panama, where a wealthy Jewish community exists, 52% of adults harbored anti-Semitic attitudes (1.3 million out of 2.4 million), followed by Columbia 41% (12 million out of 30,461,308), and the Dominican Republic 41% (2.6 million out of 6,302,522. At the bottom of the list was the USA with 9% of adults harboring anti-Semitic attitudes, found most prominently among college age adults. 21 million Americans out of an adult population of 237,042,682 were identified as harboring anti-Semitic attitudes. Canadian adults with anti-Semitic attitudes amounted to 14% (3.8 million in a population of 27, 168,616 adults). Brazil was the third lowest with 16% (22 million in an adult population of 135,545,027).
The Middle East and North Africa registered the highest level of anti-Semitic attitudes among adults in the world with 74% of the total adult population – translating to roughly 200 million of an adult population of 275,147,371. The West Bank and Gaza Arabs scored a whopping 93% (1.9 million out of 2,030,259). Ironically, Iranian adults had the least anti-Semitic attitudes with 56%. Still, In Iran, 29 million in an adult population of 52,547, 264, expressed anti-Semitic views.
I don't think there is much upside in classifying someone as anti-semetic. Most people struggle to love themselves and those closest to them. Life is damn hard for all of us most of the time. Struggle breeds frustration and eventually the impulse to blame (ourselves and others). Whomever happens to appear to either be responsible for that frustration or who appears to be untouched by it are likely to become the explanation.
The way we have lived as a race since we started writing things down isn't ideal and it doesn't encourage selflessness as often as it encourages the drawing of lines in the sand.
I'm proud to say that so far I don't dislike any identified group of people more than another. We are all equally challenged the best I can tell.
Gotta go play 18 now!
Gotta go play 18 now!
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Southern Poverty Law Center (decidedly not an arm of the Israeli govt.) but just grabbed the first two links I googled. The Premier of France discussed this same rise in antisemitism in France last year, and came down hard on it -- although it hasn't stopped the acts of violence against Jews and Jewish institutions, synagogues, etc.
Gotta go play 18 now!
good luck!
Mark Twain re: jews....
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By his make and ways he is substantially a foreigner wherever he may be, and even the angels dislike a foreigner. I am using this word foreigner in the German sense - stranger. Nearly all of us have an antipathy to a stranger, even of our own nationality. We pile gripsacks in a vacant seat to keep him from getting it; and a dog goes further, and does as a savage would - challenges him on the spot. The German dictionary seems to make no distinction between a stranger and a foreigner; in its view a stranger is a foreigner - a sound position, I think. You will always be by ways and habits and predilections substantially strangers - foreigners - wherever you are, and that will probably keep the race prejudice against you alive.
This is actually interesting given the oft repeated injunction in the Torah to remember "you too were strangers in Egypt" and many laws that require humane treatment (and inclusion) of the strangers or sojourners among the Israelites.
This association is hardly unique to German. Consider the French étranger, which hardly conveys a positive view of foreigners.