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Some observations from Sunday practice

YANKEE28 : 8/2/2015 4:43 pm
Some observations from todays practice

Giants fans have to be concerned about Newhouse and Mosely at RT. Neither looked good and Newhouse looked worse. Only good news (but it was against the 3rd team), was seeing Bobby Hart in at RT. He was very impressive.

LB Tony Johnson put huge pressure on a punt, and clearly would have blocked it in a real game

A lot of fun watching Mark Herzlich and Jerome Cunningham battle each other on numerous special teams drills. Clearly 2 guys who really want it.

Tom Quinn on a few occasions had to coach up both Geremy Davis and Corey Washington on the skills of blocking gunners on punt returns

Bennett Jackson started at left safety and was impressive. He is also the blocking back and calls the punt plays when Weatherford is in

Devin Unga caught my eye for his intensity on specials

Kerry Wynn looks really big and moved well. Ditto Jordan Stanton

Canadian Center Brett Jones was giving great effort, but seemed beaten on at least 2 plays by DT Dominque Hamilton

Jonathan Casillis broke thru from the right on a blitz. He would have crushed Nassib if allowed.

Ereck Flowers held his own today. He did a lot better handling Damontre Moore, actually swallowing him up on a few plays. Flowers matchup with starter George Selvie was worth watching. Lots of effort from both. Slight edge to Flowers.

Daniel Fells just always seems to find a way to get open. Impressive

Biggest raw from the crowd today was a nice over the middle completion-Manning to Cruz

Orleans Darkwa should a great burst on a fun right up the middle. Was 20 yards down field in an instance

Chykie Brown with outstanding coverage on a long pass down the left side

Preston Parker with a great burst on a punt return

Shane Vereen with 3 nice runs today
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RE: BB56  
Big Blue '56 : 8/2/2015 6:22 pm : link
In comment 12399222 YANKEE28 said:
Quote:
sorry, put I would respectfully disagree.

When you see a player with his hands in the right position, and one who fires off the line and aggressively engages the DE, I think you do have something worth mentioning. Hart can only play against the player the coaches put in front of him.

I also talked about C Brett Jones. He is on the 3rd team as well, and I just don't think he has the height or mass needed for the task.

If I could keep 1 Giants OL reserve, it would easily be Hart over Jones, IMO, and based only on today's work.

Another point worth making, I would to give some credit to Hamilton. He is a very big DT that showed a quick first step to beat Jones.

I hope we get to see what both Hamilton and Bobby Hart can do against the 2nd team next and take it from there.


Fair enough..Some salient points to be sure..
YANKEE28  
Phil in Joisey : 8/2/2015 6:24 pm : link
Thanks for the report. Much appreciated.
I was having lunch just a mile and a half or so away on Route 3 when I suddenly realized I could have just as easily gone to practice. At least the restaurant was air conditioned.
By the way, excellent wings at Anthony's Coal Fired.
Thanks 28  
Fred-in-Florida : 8/2/2015 6:31 pm : link
I miss all the Albany reports!
Thanks YANKEE28  
Emil : 8/2/2015 6:34 pm : link
Great observations.

Question for the BBI braintrust, at what point do the Giants say enough is enough at RT and make a trade to upgrade the position. I know I know, trades are rare in the NFL but if there is one area on the team that needs improvement and could derail the entire season is the gaping hole at RT.

Like many I hope that the Giants are able to sign Jake Long who be a huge improvement if healthy, but if that does not happen I just can't see the team going with Newhouse or Mosely as the starting RT. If by the end of the first preseason game, the RT question doesn't seem to be on the way to settled, I think the team would have to consider either signing Long or another veteran, or even trading away a late round pick. If it fixes the OL, I think they have to do it.
Thank goodness  
Phil in LA : 8/2/2015 6:35 pm : link
we have time for the RT situation to get solved or solve itself.
Man I hope we swing a trade.  
bceagle05 : 8/2/2015 6:41 pm : link
Wasn't Mankins traded around this time last year? This offense could be lethal if they upgrade that spot. We're so close...
Man, its early but we don't need to be hearing  
Jimmy Googs : 8/2/2015 7:04 pm : link
bad reports out of this restructured O-Line already.

Difficult enough to insert a rookie LT if everything else was decent, but if the guys around Flowers don't hold up then this team is in trouble.
Thank you YANKEEE28  
wgenesis123 : 8/2/2015 7:36 pm : link
I enjoyed reading your observations.
Big Blue, Your point is well taken.  
bigfish703 : 8/2/2015 8:17 pm : link
Question: Is it really "worth noting" when Hart or anyone else does "well" against a 3rd team..What does it really show or tell? Nothing imo..
Could never understand through all the years the, "I know it was against 4th stringers, but he really looked good," mantra..It says nothing really..


However, is it fair to the player in question if his efforts are dismissed due to the lesser competition? He does not choose who he goes against & should be given credit if he looks good, even if it is against 4th stringers. How else can he catch the coaches' attention?
Perhaps they will notice & put him up against 3rd stringers down the line. Of course that opportunity was never given to Washington last summer no matter how well he did. Oh, well!
yankee  
nygirlie : 8/2/2015 8:47 pm : link
How did Jerry look at RG?
If Long passed medically,  
Simms11 : 8/2/2015 9:14 pm : link
We need to get him in, because it will be another long, no pun intended, year with Newhouse or Mosely at RT!
Jerry  
YANKEE28 : 8/2/2015 9:16 pm : link
was playing opposite Cullen Jenkins. I thought Jenkins won the battle on running plays, but Jerry did keep his man away from the QB on passing plays.

Regarding Newhouse and Mosley, I have to give credit to Ayers, Wynn, and Odighizuwa, who were the reasons for the problems at RT. The biggest mismatch at RT was Ayers vs Newhouse.
on the plus side that means Ayers is looking healthy  
WeatherMan : 8/2/2015 11:37 pm : link
hopefully one of the group at RT manages to step it up this month.
If the problem at RT is not resolved eventually...  
NYRiese : 8/3/2015 1:04 am : link
Coahes and FO people should be fired...including the HC...it means that too much "hoping" was going on instead of sound planning.
RE: Jerry  
dpinzow : 8/3/2015 1:14 am : link
In comment 12399356 YANKEE28 said:
Quote:
was playing opposite Cullen Jenkins. I thought Jenkins won the battle on running plays, but Jerry did keep his man away from the QB on passing plays.

Regarding Newhouse and Mosley, I have to give credit to Ayers, Wynn, and Odighizuwa, who were the reasons for the problems at RT. The biggest mismatch at RT was Ayers vs Newhouse.


How good does O2 look? I've heard they're already giving him 1st team reps so apparently Spags likes him. That looks like a very good sign
Quinn coaching  
santacruzom : 8/3/2015 3:26 am : link
How to block gunners on punt team eh? Oh boy.
If Hart (no matter vs whom) looked so much more impresive  
BlueLou : 8/3/2015 3:45 am : link
vs the 3s, how long before he moves up the depth chart? funny thing is in their draft pressers all the Giants FO people talked about Hart playing guard, didn't they?

Can you imagine the team starting 2 rookies at OT?

This will be very, very interesting to follow. Thanks Yankees28.
Jerry is important  
grizz299 : 8/3/2015 7:03 am : link
Without a trade or someone falling to us Jerry is your fall back and it's not that bad.

Pugh or Scwartz can go to tackle and we have an experienced pro ready to fill the guard position. And for all the criticism he is still an excellent pass blocker.

I wonder if Jerry doesn't have the feet and length to go to tackle himself.
RE: Jerry is important  
jingle_jangle : 8/3/2015 8:21 am : link
In comment 12399569 grizz299 said:
Quote:
Without a trade or someone falling to us Jerry is your fall back and it's not that bad.

Pugh or Scwartz can go to tackle and we have an experienced pro ready to fill the guard position. And for all the criticism he is still an excellent pass blocker.

I wonder if Jerry doesn't have the feet and length to go to tackle himself.
you.cant just move guys from guard to tacklen. Pugh was a below average tackle and Schwartz has been garbage. Plus you will.just open up.a hole at giard. The giants need to make a move at the tackle posotion. If they dont they will not be the offense we all know they can be.
And whats that move JJ?  
Jimmy Googs : 8/3/2015 8:27 am : link
What quality Right Tackle is sitting around these days. It doesn't absolve Reese but what is the path for a better plan right now?
RE: And whats that move JJ?  
jingle_jangle : 8/3/2015 8:44 am : link
In comment 12399600 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
What quality Right Tackle is sitting around these days. It doesn't absolve Reese but what is the path for a better plan right now?
I dont have an.answer. I am hoping those who get paid do.
Schwartz is not garbage.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/3/2015 8:45 am : link
Silly statement..
We have to sign Evan Mathis  
JFIB : 8/3/2015 8:45 am : link
And bump Schwartz to RT. No choice in the matter. Pay him what he wants and just get it done.We are not going to get anything from JPP this year so lets spend some of that money where its needed.
RE: Schwartz is not garbage.  
jingle_jangle : 8/3/2015 8:49 am : link
In comment 12399621 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Silly statement..
I agree. He has been garbage for Giants due to injury. You are correct I am.over simplifying. Would you go.for Mathis?
RE: And whats that move JJ?  
Klaatu : 8/3/2015 9:03 am : link
In comment 12399600 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
What quality Right Tackle is sitting around these days. It doesn't absolve Reese but what is the path for a better plan right now?


Two years ago I wanted the Giants to sign Anthony Collins (CIN). He'd been a very good backup/spot starter with the Bengals and I figured he could easily start for us at RT. Collins re-upped with Cincy for one year and played well enough to get a nice deal from Tampa Bay...where he promptly crashed and burned. He lost his starting job to a UDFA...the Bucs tried to trade him but couldn't...they eventually released him and drafted Donovan Smith and Ali Marpet in his wake.

Well, Collins is still out there, but at this point I don't know if he'd be an upgrade from Newhouse, which is scary.

It's possible that someone capable of playing RT for us might shake loose from another team, but I don't think it's probable. I figure we're "going to war with the Army we have," and I hope that one or two of our younger O-Linemen show enough in the preseason to keep Newhouse and Jerry on the bench where they belong.
How QUALITY does someone have to be to beat out the likes  
Curtis in VA : 8/3/2015 9:07 am : link
of Newhouse or Mosley?? Come on.

We need an upgrade here.
RE: RE: Schwartz is not garbage.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/3/2015 9:32 am : link
In comment 12399627 jingle_jangle said:
Quote:
In comment 12399621 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Silly statement..

I agree. He has been garbage for Giants due to injury. You are correct I am.over simplifying. Would you go.for Mathis?


I've wanted Mathis from the get-go..His price hasn't come down all that much, if at all, according to a report I saw yesterday or Saturday..
RE: How QUALITY does someone have to be to beat out the likes  
Klaatu : 8/3/2015 9:33 am : link
In comment 12399660 Curtis in VA said:
Quote:
of Newhouse or Mosley?? Come on.

We need an upgrade here.


Give me a name, Curtis.

As I said to Joey in another thread, there's a dearth of OL talent in the league, which is why guys like Charles Brown, James Brewer, and J.D. Walton all have new teams, not to mention our own Marshall Newhouse.

Would you bring in former first-round pick Gabe Carimi? He's underachieved for three teams so far. Do you want to sign Gosder Cherilus? Now that I think about it, he might better on one leg than Newhouse is on two. Are you riding the Jake Long bandwagon? He's a walking - err, limping - M*A*S*H* unit.

I agree we need an upgrade. I just hope we can find it in-house, because as of now there are slim pickings on the outside.
Y28, thanks for posting  
JonC : 8/3/2015 9:42 am : link
For those wanting a RT upgrade ... we also need an upgrade at DE, SS, potentially both OLB positions, could use stronger weapons at TE, and depth at CB. Welcome to the modern NFL and its salary cap, rosters are rarely complete let alone deep.

The ship for each has sailed, unless another team cuts a worthy player, which is rare. Coaches will get these dudes ready to contribute, have faith.

Thanks, Yankee  
nygirlie : 8/3/2015 9:42 am : link
Keep em comin.
Doesn't make sense to resign Eli to an expensive extension  
Headhunter : 8/3/2015 9:45 am : link
and allowing him to get killed
Herzlich...  
trueblueinpw : 8/3/2015 9:54 am : link
Hate to write it but I'm a little tired of him. I get it, he's got heart and a never quit always work hard ethic. But is the talent there? It seems like we would have seen a few good plays from him by now. Is there really no one more talented than Herzlich who we could give a try? Or is the hope that he's going to mature into something more than what we've seen so far?
RE: Y28, thanks for posting  
nyynyg : 8/3/2015 9:56 am : link
In comment 12399712 JonC said:
Quote:
For those wanting a RT upgrade ... we also need an upgrade at DE, SS, potentially both OLB positions, could use stronger weapons at TE, and depth at CB. Welcome to the modern NFL and its salary cap, rosters are rarely complete let alone deep.


It is academic at this point because as you say, the ship has sailed. There are not many improvements floating around.

However, it the academic conversation, I think a solidification of OL if I had to pick one and only one upgrade area, that is where I would do it. We are going to win/lose on the back of this offense. This year anyway. That much is clear.

The Giants can win with a stand out offense and a defense that can hold its own. Adding a DE or S on this defensive unit is not going to be a material difference. And that includes adding a solid JPP which is why I am 100% fine bagging that whole thing and saving the money.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 8/3/2015 9:59 am : link
I agree nyynyg - flawed football teams consistently win Super Bowls. And an elite offense can make a mediocre defense look okay, like the Cowboys did last year.

I think I'd focus on forming an elite unit (offense) than patching up holes on defense at this point.
RE: RE: Y28, thanks for posting  
jingle_jangle : 8/3/2015 10:00 am : link
In comment 12399749 nyynyg said:
Quote:
In comment 12399712 JonC said:


Quote:


For those wanting a RT upgrade ... we also need an upgrade at DE, SS, potentially both OLB positions, could use stronger weapons at TE, and depth at CB. Welcome to the modern NFL and its salary cap, rosters are rarely complete let alone deep.




It is academic at this point because as you say, the ship has sailed. There are not many improvements floating around.

However, it the academic conversation, I think a solidification of OL if I had to pick one and only one upgrade area, that is where I would do it. We are going to win/lose on the back of this offense. This year anyway. That much is clear.

The Giants can win with a stand out offense and a defense that can hold its own. Adding a DE or S on this defensive unit is not going to be a material difference. And that includes adding a solid JPP which is why I am 100% fine bagging that whole thing and saving the money.

Great logic. Dont let the o line derail the season with the weapons we have. Ah if only beatty didnt get hurt.
As for what can we learn from camp practices  
JonC : 8/3/2015 10:03 am : link
Perhaps not always definitive in terms of who will ultimately be successful or not, but coaches are looking for players who are prepared in terms of mentality, technique, conditioning, attitude, want-to, positioning, demonstrate knowledge of assignments when bullets are flying, the list goes on and on. In football, so much goes on in terms of preparation in every practice that you may only be aware of if you've played the game, or watched a number of practices. The ultimate team sport, countless moving parts ...
RE: Thanks Y28..  
Matt M. : 8/3/2015 10:29 am : link
In comment 12399200 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Question: Is it really "worth noting" when Hart or anyone else does "well" against a 3rd team..What does it really show or tell? Nothing imo..

Could never understand through all the years the, "I know it was against 4th stringers, but he really looked good," mantra..It says nothing really..

Nothing personal about you, my friend, just a general observation about a yearly observation..:)
In and of itself, Hart looking good against 3rd stringers means nothing. But, perhaps it gets him more reps with the 2nd unit or even starters. What it may do is make the lose of the Newhouse/Mosely battled expendable and get him a spot on the roster instead of the practice squad.
RE: If the problem at RT is not resolved eventually...  
Matt M. : 8/3/2015 10:30 am : link
In comment 12399541 NYRiese said:
Quote:
Coahes and FO people should be fired...including the HC...it means that too much "hoping" was going on instead of sound planning.
There was sound planning. We drafted one of the top 2 OL with the expectation of him starting at RT. You can't plan for your starting LT tearing his pectoral muscle while working out before mini camp even begins.
I'm actually getting quite tired of the misconception that Reese  
Matt M. : 8/3/2015 10:33 am : link
didn't plan or address the OL. In the last few years, we spend 2 1st round picks and 1 2nd round pick on the OL and all 3 players will be starting at their respective positions this year. In addition, he has signed some veteran OL who were deemed as decent options. Not all the FA signings worked out, but the OL has NOT been ignored as too many people spew here.
Well said, Matt.  
BrettNYG10 : 8/3/2015 10:34 am : link
We all got very excited over Cruz when he had his 3 TD performance against backups and third stringers. Sustainable outperformance will likely push the player up the depth chart, or help secure a roster spot if they're on the bubble.
Agreed on the OL as well.  
BrettNYG10 : 8/3/2015 10:36 am : link
He's invested plenty over the years. I believe the Giants were 2nd in cap space allocated to the OL in 2011 when the OL was a dumpster fire until the playoffs. Reese has gotten unlucky in some cases, but also missed up until this point.
I agree  
nyynyg : 8/3/2015 10:41 am : link
I don't think the OL has been ignored, it is simply the place if we could I would pour more investment to deal with the current state. Nothing more. I don't ping Reese at all on this, he's made the investments, he's spent money to bring a guy like Schwartz in.
In the current salaary cap system, it is simply unrealistic  
Matt M. : 8/3/2015 10:58 am : link
for a position like the OL to have adequate depth and still have adequate talent elsewhere. Now, the argument could be made that they don't have adequate talent elsewhere. But, again, in the cap, there is only so much to do.

Like him or not, Eli is a franchise QB. He may be paid more than some people like, but that is the only way to keep a franchise QB. When you combine him with a the WR trio of OBJ, Cruz, and Randle, as well as the 3-headed RB monster, they have the talent on offense to put up points. With their current system, the OL really only needs to improve to decent, which is very doable. They likely have upgraded themselves at LG and OC, and if Schwartz can stay healthy at RG. They need decent play from both OT positions.

Defense is a big question to me. I love Collins at S. Even as a rookie, I think he is an immediate upgrade given how poorly Rolle played last year. the problem is a lack of depth overall at that position. I honestly think Collins could be the best player on the entire D by season's end. I am not in love with Spags' defense the way many are here. But, I see any change as an upgrade over Fewell. They have some talent, but will require several guys to play up, so to speak, along the DL and LB. They also NEED to stay healthy in the secondary.
RE: Thanks Y28..  
Jersey55 : 8/3/2015 11:05 am : link
In comment 12399200 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Question: Is it really "worth noting" when Hart or anyone else does "well" against a 3rd team..What does it really show or tell? Nothing imo..

Could never understand through all the years the, "I know it was against 4th stringers, but he really looked good," mantra..It says nothing really..

Nothing personal about you, my friend, just a general observation about a yearly observation..:)


I think it would say a lot more if it said he was beaten badly by 4th stringers, everything I've read says that Hart has looked good....
RE: RE: How QUALITY does someone have to be to beat out the likes  
Jimmy Googs : 8/3/2015 11:54 am : link
In comment 12399692 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 12399660 Curtis in VA said:


Quote:


of Newhouse or Mosley?? Come on.

We need an upgrade here.



Give me a name, Curtis.

As I said to Joey in another thread, there's a dearth of OL talent in the league, which is why guys like Charles Brown, James Brewer, and J.D. Walton all have new teams, not to mention our own Marshall Newhouse.


Reese indirectly made an upgrade by making sure James Brewer wasn't on the roster any longer.

But I agree Klaatu. Pickings are slim and all come with hair on them. But the idea is to find the one with least amount or most developmental potential. That simply may be Newhouse and Mosley in the eyes of the men in blue caps.
Thanks YANKEE28  
nicky43 : 8/3/2015 1:13 pm : link
I'm sure Reese and company are watching the wire for another Tackle. It's obvious we're going to need an upgrade there. I'm not a fan of Beatty but this situation really hopes he heals fast!
RE: Herzlich...  
fbdad : 8/3/2015 1:59 pm : link
In comment 12399744 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:
Hate to write it but I'm a little tired of him. I get it, he's got heart and a never quit always work hard ethic. But is the talent there? It seems like we would have seen a few good plays from him by now. Is there really no one more talented than Herzlich who we could give a try? Or is the hope that he's going to mature into something more than what we've seen so far?


Didn't PFF give Herzlich the team's second highest grade against the run last year when he started the last 6 or 7 games?
If you could only sub in Herzlich  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/3/2015 2:08 pm : link
specifically to fill a gap in run support, he'd be fine.

The minute you need him to track and pursue sideline to sideline it falls apart.
RE: RE: Herzlich...  
trueblueinpw : 8/3/2015 9:35 pm : link
In comment 12400210 fbdad said:
Quote:
In comment 12399744 trueblueinpw said:


Quote:
Didn't PFF give Herzlich the team's second highest grade against the run last year when he started the last 6 or 7 games?


Maybe. But, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement considering our run defense was so terrible. Still, I get your point. It just seems like we keep some of these marginal players around too long. Whether or not we're missing out on something better is probably very difficult to say. I like the young man, his story is terrific. I hope he gets better in coverage.
Herzlich is a liability on defense, and  
Jimmy Googs : 8/3/2015 10:50 pm : link
any offense that is organized enough will take advantage of his presence on the field.

And if you care to debate, go re-watch the first Redskin game or the SF game last season when he was exposed by players he had in man-to-man or zone coverage. Watching his RBs come out of the backfield in passing downs is particularly eye-opening as to his recognition skills.

Making tackles 4-5 yards past the LOS tells me you care but are not talented enough to help the cause.
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