CINCINNATI & #8208; It wasn't the greatest day for the Giants defense. They had trouble keeping the Bengals tight ends and receivers from doing major damage... Link - ( New Window )
"Rookie defensive end Owa Odighizuwa has made quite the impression. Veteran defensive lineman Robert Ayers went as far as saying Odighizuwa "is going to be a monster." "
is going to really help propel us I think. We are going to benefit from this and it may be the difference maker we needed for a jump start on the season. The film alone from these practices is going to help us.
I agree with you: NYG used the available resources - particularly the top four draft picks - very efficiently. If the value had been at CB, things might have shaken out differently. The value was at OT, S and DE - also positions of need - so that's where the resources went.
The UFA options were few and pricey. Can't really fault the Giants for passing on them.
may be like the baseball hitter who "cheats" by starting his swing early in order to catch up with fastballs, and then can't handle other pitches.
He is still too damned light to both hold his corner on running plays and get pressure on passing plays, so he guesses one or the other, and gets beat when he guesses wrong.
Jerry Reese always drafts for value and there's nothing he can do about it if a position has a lack of depth or quality players because that's how the draft fell and he didnt want to overpay in free agency.
Meanwhile he was panned for the contracts he handed out to special teamers like Castillas, Harris and a nobody LB in JT Thomas.
RE: Isn't it a little strange that Hosley is being utilized on the outside
That is the thing, he is listed as the 3rd corner but he wont play unless DRC or Prince miss a game...
Mcbride and Jackson will play the nickel...
and ODB stop with the Giants signed just special teamers...
Dwayne Harris is going to have a big impact on this team and yes it may just be on special teams but that impact is going to be felt, i think people forget how much impact tyree had on this team and he didnt even return kicks...
JT Thomas is a starting LB on this team, he was not signed just to play specials and Casillas has been used in the nickel and can play any of the LB positions...
so please stop with the they only signed special team players...these guys will all have an impact and i think you forget just how bad the special teams have been...
if the special teams can change the average start for the opposing team from the 20-18 that small a difference can help the defense...
Damontre Moore: not the biggest, fastest or quickest DE IMO
I shudder when I remember how scared and defensive the Giant STs seemed to be when having to deal with Harris or the few similar kr/pr around. God forbid that the punter overkick the coverage--we were dead meat. So, we not only got beat on long punts, but had to punt and kick directionally, reducing the potential for a really good result.
You're not supposed to over extend yourself for the impact these three players will have.
The things they bring should be brought in with mid rd draft choices. Not precious free agent dollars.
JT Thomas starting for the Giants doesnt mean he's good. It means they have nobody else on the team worth a damn. It's not a bible but look where PFF ranked the two LBS the giants signed.
It's just my opinion but this is a team lacking depth at a lot of key spots. We could have spent or money more wisely.
Now everyone tell me I'm a douche and a troll because I have a different opinion. I'll continue to respect the opinions of others. That's why we're here, right? Castillas Thomas - ( New Window )
BB'56 - I love the Spags, but the personnel were better, across the board, back then. Certainly, there is a learning curve for this group with his scheme, but I'm not looking for or expecting miracles.
Klaatu, maybe the point is that given how consistently bad Hosley has been (seen it with mine own eyes, and I had hopes when he was drafted, given the official spin), had the Giants cut bait, the FO would have been more focused, had the slot, had the $$ to bring in a better player, not a Revis, but a better player. And you're right, I don't have a name for you. But JH has been darn awful, 4 years and counting.
Same with Moore.
My oft-repeated refrain: Reese's picks who don't see the field significantly in their 1st or 2nd year.....
I jsut think your minimizing how big of an impact special teams has on a game..you are forgetting how bad special teams has been and how bad the coverage has been...
and JT Thomas is starting because he had 88 tackles last year 2 ints and 2 ff...he is no slouch...
and hosely is not going to play in the slot...
you are forgetting Jackson and Mcbride(who had a very good year 2 years ago)..also according to reports trevin Wade is having a very good camp and Chykie Brown will be back...
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 3m3 minutes ago
@njgiants80 @MGiants11 Would not surprise me if they shift McBride to the outside to create more depth there if BJax can handle the nickel.
BB'56 - I love the Spags, but the personnel were better, across the board, back then. Certainly, there is a learning curve for this group with his scheme, but I'm not looking for or expecting miracles.
Was the personnel really that much better?
Yes the defensive line was beastly with Tuck Strahan and Osi...
But the LBs were ehh Pierce, Mitchell and Torbor...Pierce was already slowed by the ankle and his gut, Mitchell was good that year but not a world beater and Torbor was ok...
the DBs were a rookie Ross, aging Madison and Mcquarters, James Butler, Gibril Wilson and a rookie Michael Johnson...
I mean the only positional group that stands out is the DLine
Special teams is losing it's impact on the game. They've essentially eliminated the kickoff.
Punt Coverage and Returns are important but how much money do you pump into that?
Also, throwing out tackle stats to me dont exactly impress me. I could be wrong about Thomas but everything I've read about him makes it seem the Giants over extended themselves with him.
We'll see. Hopefully I'm wrong. Pumped for tomorrow.
Special teams is losing it's impact on the game. They've essentially eliminated the kickoff.
Punt Coverage and Returns are important but how much money do you pump into that?
Also, throwing out tackle stats to me dont exactly impress me. I could be wrong about Thomas but everything I've read about him makes it seem the Giants over extended themselves with him.
We'll see. Hopefully I'm wrong. Pumped for tomorrow.
Wait so what stats do you look for for a LB?? 88 tackles shows that he is always around the ball...
How about a guy like Brandon Browner? Who is on a 3 yr 15 million deal?
Fair enough, however...
He'll never see $15 million, just like he never saw anything close to the full deal he got from the Patriots...who got rid of him after one year. Besides, after twice leading the league in penalties and serving a suspension for substance abuse, I don't see how he'd possibly be on the Giants' radar.
Quote:
How about Kyle Arrington who signed a 3 yr 7 million deal.
Another ex-Patriot who wore out his welcome in New England. We'll see if he can stay healthy in Baltimore.
Quote:
Proven veteran commodities with experience instead of Jayron Hosley?
Hosley is no lock to make the team, for all of the talk about his "resurrection" under Steve Spagnuolo. Regardless, after spending big bucks on DRC last year, and with an eye on re-signing Prince next year (if there are no questions about his durability), I wouldn't have expected the Giants to do much in free agency above the Gordy-Wade level. Next year may be a different story if the Giants don't re-sign Prince.
As for the draft, the Giants had much bigger priorities in 2015. In 2016, I expect CB to be high on their list.
2007 Tuck, Osi and Strahan would be the best player on this giants defense.
ANd those lbs were better than the currents lbs. Dont see how you could disagree with that.
I am not even discussing the DLine because of course they were better...
But if Beason is healthy i would take this years Lbs in a second over 07...
Beason is much better than Pierce was that year...
Kennard is better than Mitchell and much more versatile...
Thomas vs Torbor/Kiwi is the debate and i will take Thomas because he is more athletic and can cover tight ends something neither Torbor or Kiwi could do...
In comment 12415536 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
BB'56 - I love the Spags, but the personnel were better, across the board, back then. Certainly, there is a learning curve for this group with his scheme, but I'm not looking for or expecting miracles.
Was the personnel really that much better?
Yes the defensive line was beastly with Tuck Strahan and Osi...
But the LBs were ehh Pierce, Mitchell and Torbor...Pierce was already slowed by the ankle and his gut, Mitchell was good that year but not a world beater and Torbor was ok...
the DBs were a rookie Ross, aging Madison and Mcquarters, James Butler, Gibril Wilson and a rookie Michael Johnson...
I mean the only positional group that stands out is the DLine
Fair question, but I think you underrate the year and the impact Mitchell has on that group; and Torbor was a complementary piece, not a stud, but it all worked. Pierce, even with his limitations, worked.
You also underrate the year Madison had; he was on the tail end of his career, but he was a solid, reliable part of the back 7. Johnson stood out for the big plays he made, Gibril too
I am hopeful about our safeties this year too, but many questions; with DRC and Prince, I worry about their ability to stay on the field; the LBs are a bunch of ??s, other than (hopefully) Kennard. DL, not in the same league except for Hank and we'll see about the DEs
The giants had one of the worst defenses in the NFL last yr.
Our best defensive player blew off a finger. We signed JT Thomas and have inexperience at safety and questionable depth at CB.
Are you really trying to argue this defense vs the 2007 defense? Lol cmon bro.
Bringing up last year in this argument is absolutely pointless...how many different faces are on this defense that didnt play last year?
you bring up questionable depth umm who was playing corner in teh dallas game in the playoffs??
how can you bring up last years defense when 1 it is a different coordinator and 2 last year the defense was without Beason, Prince, DRC was playing at 80%, didnt have Collins...
In comment 12415536 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
BB'56 - I love the Spags, but the personnel were better, across the board, back then. Certainly, there is a learning curve for this group with his scheme, but I'm not looking for or expecting miracles.
Was the personnel really that much better?
Yes the defensive line was beastly with Tuck Strahan and Osi...
But the LBs were ehh Pierce, Mitchell and Torbor...Pierce was already slowed by the ankle and his gut, Mitchell was good that year but not a world beater and Torbor was ok...
the DBs were a rookie Ross, aging Madison and Mcquarters, James Butler, Gibril Wilson and a rookie Michael Johnson...
I mean the only positional group that stands out is the DLine
Fair question, but I think you underrate the year and the impact Mitchell has on that group; and Torbor was a complementary piece, not a stud, but it all worked. Pierce, even with his limitations, worked.
You also underrate the year Madison had; he was on the tail end of his career, but he was a solid, reliable part of the back 7. Johnson stood out for the big plays he made, Gibril too
I am hopeful about our safeties this year too, but many questions; with DRC and Prince, I worry about their ability to stay on the field; the LBs are a bunch of ??s, other than (hopefully) Kennard. DL, not in the same league except for Hank and we'll see about the DEs
Oh dont get me wrong there are plenty of question marks with this team and Health is the biggest one...
My argument is that on paper it is comparable to the 07 defense and to a degree the 08 defense
may be like the baseball hitter who "cheats" by starting his swing early in order to catch up with fastballs, and then can't handle other pitches.
He is still too damned light to both hold his corner on running plays and get pressure on passing plays, so he guesses one or the other, and gets beat when he guesses wrong.
Just a guess on my part.
Not a bad analogy. But, they also may use him situationally, so there may be less guessing involved.
ouch on the LBs; I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree; the only candidate I'd be inclined to sub a '15 for an '07 would be Torbor. Mitchell and Pierce were solid. Would you really take the high risk Beason for the years the former two had? I wouldn't.
Safeties, total crap shoot, we agree, and we agree on the DL
can they consistently rush the passer? I still remember Romo having time last year to count the fans in attendance before throwing the ball.
Second, can they handle the QB option run? Remember Russell Wilson and Blake Bortles?
If not, then it's the same old Giants D.
Hopefully, we'll see some QB option runs in the pre-season to have some idea as to whether the D has improved against such plays. Seems they made some progress in rushing the passer, having sacked/pressured Andy Dalton over the last two days.
ouch on the LBs; I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree; the only candidate I'd be inclined to sub a '15 for an '07 would be Torbor. Mitchell and Pierce were solid. Would you really take the high risk Beason for the years the former two had? I wouldn't.
Safeties, total crap shoot, we agree, and we agree on the DL
Hey i will be the first to admit Beason is a risk and that is why i said if healthy...
But yes if Beason is healthy i wiould take him over Pierce every day of the week...
the reason i didnt have mitchell in there is because i think Thomas is a better coverage LB and will be able to cover TEs better than mitchell could...Remember that team was killed by Tight Ends....
Kennard over Torbor or Kiwi is no argument which we agree on...
can they consistently rush the passer? I still remember Romo having time last year to count the fans in attendance before throwing the ball.
Second, can they handle the QB option run? Remember Russell Wilson and Blake Bortles?
If not, then it's the same old Giants D.
Hopefully, we'll see some QB option runs in the pre-season to have some idea as to whether the D has improved against such plays. Seems they made some progress in rushing the passer, having sacked/pressured Andy Dalton over the last two days.
Kennard is hopefully going to help with the pass rush...
I think i read that Spags went and studied with Urban Meyer trying to figure out ways to stop the read option...
I will build the defense based on 07 and this year and i will show how the talent is comparable
DE Osi 07
DT Tuck 07
DT Hankins 15
DE Strahan 07
LB Kennard 15
LB Beason 15(if healthy)
LB Thomas 15
CB DRC 15
S Collins 15
S Wilson 07
CB Prince 15
SCB Ross 07
You would take Torbor or Kiwi over Kennard?
I siad if healthy with Beason if he is not then yes it is PIerce obviously...
People will take Mitchell over THomas because they really have not seen THomas play...I think Thomas ends up being better because of his coverage ability...
I've been curious why Hosley is getting the starter reps ahead of McBride, wondering if this is his big shot at seizing reps before they go with McBride as he's proven himself capable, and he plays with some bite.
Kuhn isn't long for the NFL, imv. That's one spot I'd like to see a Bromley seize the reps and KO Kuhn to free up a roster spot.
Nygiants16 and Semipro: aren't we putting Collins awfully high?
I have very high hopes for Collins but hopes are all they are at this moment because he's never even played in a pre-season game let alone a regular season game.
RE: Nygiants16 and Semipro: aren't we putting Collins awfully high?
I have very high hopes for Collins but hopes are all they are at this moment because he's never even played in a pre-season game let alone a regular season game.
Of course it is all hope but he has the talent and he has the leadership ability which you need at the safety spot...
I've been curious why Hosley is getting the starter reps ahead of McBride, wondering if this is his big shot at seizing reps before they go with McBride as he's proven himself capable, and he plays with some bite.
Kuhn isn't long for the NFL, imv. That's one spot I'd like to see a Bromley seize the reps and KO Kuhn to free up a roster spot.
I think they are giving Holsey every chance to win the job. Unfortunately, he isn't taking advantage of the situation.
You're taking a huge leap of faith in thinking this defense has the potential to be anything close to the 07 defense.
Simply put it doesnt have the disruptive difference makers that defense had.
and again my argument is did you think the 07 defense was going to be as good as it was going into the season?
and i will argue that yes that the Dline is not comparable...
BUT
Kennard, Beason If healthy, DRC, Prince, Collins, Hankins all can have an impact and have game changing ability on the defensive side of the ball..
I will also argue that Spags has Corners on this team that he can trust on the outside to play one on one and can be even more creative with blitzes which will help in getting the passer...
Kennard is going to be a huge player for them in rushing the passer...
BB'56 - I love the Spags, but the personnel were better, across the board, back then. Certainly, there is a learning curve for this group with his scheme, but I'm not looking for or expecting miracles.
Was the personnel really that much better?
Yes the defensive line was beastly with Tuck Strahan and Osi...
But the LBs were ehh Pierce, Mitchell and Torbor...Pierce was already slowed by the ankle and his gut, Mitchell was good that year but not a world beater and Torbor was ok...
the DBs were a rookie Ross, aging Madison and Mcquarters, James Butler, Gibril Wilson and a rookie Michael Johnson...
I mean the only positional group that stands out is the DLine
This is one of those things where it's hard to argue against you because you're just projecting a lot of players to have big seasons.
It's possible but highly unlikely this defense plays anywhere near the level of the 07 defense.
You said only the DL unit stood out about the 07 team. What unit stands out on this team? We have virtual unknowns at all three levels.
There were three players on that team who would be the best player on this current defense. Last years defense was one of the worst in the NFL and it's best player lost a finger. We are thin at CB, inexperienced at safety. Sorry if the acquisitions of JT Thomas doenst get my dick hard.
I'm not going to say what you're saying is outlandish but it certainly seems to be a leap of faith. Could I be wrong? Sure, but the odds are in my favor that I'm not.
In the 1978 Cotton Bowl, Notre Dame played a powerful Texas team that relied on the QB option run.
Notre Dame won 38-10 because its defense keyed on the FB- Dan Devine figured out that if you stopped the inside hand-off to the FB, you stop the option QB because there really is no option. Golic and Mike McCoy stopped the FB.
Easier said than done, but wonder if Meyer told Spags that if you stop someone like Beast Mode you stop Wildon's option run?
In the 1978 Cotton Bowl, Notre Dame played a powerful Texas team that relied on the QB option run.
Notre Dame won 38-10 because its defense keyed on the FB- Dan Devine figured out that if you stopped the inside hand-off to the FB, you stop the option QB because there really is no option. Golic and Mike McCoy stopped the FB.
Easier said than done, but wonder if Meyer told Spags that if you stop someone like Beast Mode you stop Wildon's option run?
The best way IMo to stop the option is everyone has a role and a key guy...as long as everyone is on the same page you can stop it...
You just can not get to cute with it...
If your defensive end has the QB and he crashes your fucked...everyone has to be on the same page...
I remember in HS we use to play Morris Knolls and they ran the triple option our coach was a moron and basically had our MLB play every single part of the option...meaning he had the dive guy, QB and pitch guy...we got smoked....
If i was Spags i would do it this way...DTs and MLB callapse on RB...
Defensive end and outside LB have Qb....
if it is triple option...Safety and CB have pitch guy....
I think Hosley is going through a Sinorice Moss camp program
They are thinking about cutting bait, so they will give him a lot of time in preseasons to see what he can really do. If its more of the same he's gone, if he surprises he sticks. However I think the Giants believe its time to make a decision on him. So I wouldn't read much into Hosley getting a lot of playing time now, its his final exam (so to speak).
First, I still believe the Giants will cut bait with JPP when the bell rings for final cuts. I just don't see how you can pay him big money this year given his health; his lack of camp time; and so forth.
However, if they do hold onto him, lets hope he can be a 3rd down pass rush guy to start the season and works his way back into being a solid player for the second half of the season as he acclimates. If he isn't a bonafide bull rusher by mid-season, well, we won't do much for the stretch.
Second, how will our safeties perform? We are awfully young back there. It looks like Collins and Jackson will start right now with Taylor a backup.
Third, how long will it take for them to master the new scheme? It took the 2007 Giants a few games and I believe the same will be the case here, maybe longer as the safeties are so young.
Health: we have minimal depth at CB and maybe even LB now that veteran McLain is hurting. This is a team that needs a healthy year since we've been the league's most injured team for 2 years running. An NFL record.
Finally, who will rush the passer with JPP likely out?? I say Moore, Ayers from the outside and Hankins and Jenkins from the inside on 3rd downs. JPP may rotate in if kept but he won't be football ready early in the season.
I see Dallas blowing our doors off game 1 in their house. I just don't think the defense will have it together that early against that OL. A lot can happen from now until that game (ex. Injuries) but I just don't think we have the kind of OL we need to protect Eli and the defense has "average" talent at safety (youth makes them average at best right now); average talent at LB; and below average pass rush until proven otherwise.
I'm hoping for 9-7 at this point, had a better year slated before Beatty and JPP were hurt.
they are learning a new defense and are 2 weeks into camp. him detailing the defenses miscues right now are irrelevant. only thing that would matter is if they are getting blown off the ball.
Kuhn's status might hinge on injuries and roster allocation.
He's most likely the fifth DT. Hankins and Bromley are on the team; Ellis and Jenkins are pretty close to locks too. If the team carries five, Kuhn likely makes it, though I guess Hamilton has a shot. Of course, the players have some degree of control over the math: if five DTs show that they are worth keeping, the staff is more likely to keep five and go thin elsewhere (e.g. at RB or DB).
Thank god we signed those special teams players though!
Thank god we signed those special teams players though!
Who would you have signed in free agency? Who would you have drafted?
I get a real kick out of the "Don't just stand there - do something!" crowd who never, ever offer any specifics.
How about Kyle Arrington who signed a 3 yr 7 million deal.
Proven veteran commodities with experience instead of Jayron Hosley?
I agree with you: NYG used the available resources - particularly the top four draft picks - very efficiently. If the value had been at CB, things might have shaken out differently. The value was at OT, S and DE - also positions of need - so that's where the resources went.
The UFA options were few and pricey. Can't really fault the Giants for passing on them.
He is still too damned light to both hold his corner on running plays and get pressure on passing plays, so he guesses one or the other, and gets beat when he guesses wrong.
Just a guess on my part.
Meanwhile he was panned for the contracts he handed out to special teamers like Castillas, Harris and a nobody LB in JT Thomas.
That is the thing, he is listed as the 3rd corner but he wont play unless DRC or Prince miss a game...
Mcbride and Jackson will play the nickel...
and ODB stop with the Giants signed just special teamers...
Dwayne Harris is going to have a big impact on this team and yes it may just be on special teams but that impact is going to be felt, i think people forget how much impact tyree had on this team and he didnt even return kicks...
JT Thomas is a starting LB on this team, he was not signed just to play specials and Casillas has been used in the nickel and can play any of the LB positions...
so please stop with the they only signed special team players...these guys will all have an impact and i think you forget just how bad the special teams have been...
if the special teams can change the average start for the opposing team from the 20-18 that small a difference can help the defense...
Nice having that on our side for a change.
The things they bring should be brought in with mid rd draft choices. Not precious free agent dollars.
JT Thomas starting for the Giants doesnt mean he's good. It means they have nobody else on the team worth a damn. It's not a bible but look where PFF ranked the two LBS the giants signed.
It's just my opinion but this is a team lacking depth at a lot of key spots. We could have spent or money more wisely.
Now everyone tell me I'm a douche and a troll because I have a different opinion. I'll continue to respect the opinions of others. That's why we're here, right?
Castillas Thomas - ( New Window )
Klaatu, maybe the point is that given how consistently bad Hosley has been (seen it with mine own eyes, and I had hopes when he was drafted, given the official spin), had the Giants cut bait, the FO would have been more focused, had the slot, had the $$ to bring in a better player, not a Revis, but a better player. And you're right, I don't have a name for you. But JH has been darn awful, 4 years and counting.
Same with Moore.
My oft-repeated refrain: Reese's picks who don't see the field significantly in their 1st or 2nd year.....
and JT Thomas is starting because he had 88 tackles last year 2 ints and 2 ff...he is no slouch...
and hosely is not going to play in the slot...
you are forgetting Jackson and Mcbride(who had a very good year 2 years ago)..also according to reports trevin Wade is having a very good camp and Chykie Brown will be back...
@njgiants80 @MGiants11 Would not surprise me if they shift McBride to the outside to create more depth there if BJax can handle the nickel.
Was the personnel really that much better?
Yes the defensive line was beastly with Tuck Strahan and Osi...
But the LBs were ehh Pierce, Mitchell and Torbor...Pierce was already slowed by the ankle and his gut, Mitchell was good that year but not a world beater and Torbor was ok...
the DBs were a rookie Ross, aging Madison and Mcquarters, James Butler, Gibril Wilson and a rookie Michael Johnson...
I mean the only positional group that stands out is the DLine
Punt Coverage and Returns are important but how much money do you pump into that?
Also, throwing out tackle stats to me dont exactly impress me. I could be wrong about Thomas but everything I've read about him makes it seem the Giants over extended themselves with him.
We'll see. Hopefully I'm wrong. Pumped for tomorrow.
I take DRC Prince Mcbride Jackson Collins Miles over the 07 secondary....this seconday is a lot younger and more athletic...
I am not going to even touch the DL because well yeah the 07 line shits on this one..
I'd say it was a significant talent differential.
That team had 56 sacks!
Punt Coverage and Returns are important but how much money do you pump into that?
Also, throwing out tackle stats to me dont exactly impress me. I could be wrong about Thomas but everything I've read about him makes it seem the Giants over extended themselves with him.
We'll see. Hopefully I'm wrong. Pumped for tomorrow.
Wait so what stats do you look for for a LB?? 88 tackles shows that he is always around the ball...
I'd say it was a significant talent differential.
That team had 56 sacks!
How is it significant if it is only 3 players? so your saying if Spags doesnt have OSI Tuck and Strahan the team is going to suck??
That team was lacking Talent at LB and Dbs...
I can argue having better more athletic LBs and DBs will help spags be more agressive and they will still get a ton of pressure on the QB
Fair enough, however...
He'll never see $15 million, just like he never saw anything close to the full deal he got from the Patriots...who got rid of him after one year. Besides, after twice leading the league in penalties and serving a suspension for substance abuse, I don't see how he'd possibly be on the Giants' radar.
Another ex-Patriot who wore out his welcome in New England. We'll see if he can stay healthy in Baltimore.
Hosley is no lock to make the team, for all of the talk about his "resurrection" under Steve Spagnuolo. Regardless, after spending big bucks on DRC last year, and with an eye on re-signing Prince next year (if there are no questions about his durability), I wouldn't have expected the Giants to do much in free agency above the Gordy-Wade level. Next year may be a different story if the Giants don't re-sign Prince.
As for the draft, the Giants had much bigger priorities in 2015. In 2016, I expect CB to be high on their list.
Nickel back will be on the field just as many plays if not more.
Nickel back will be on the field just as many plays if not more.
and hosely will not be the nickel CB
ANd those lbs were better than the currents lbs. Dont see how you could disagree with that.
ANd those lbs were better than the currents lbs. Dont see how you could disagree with that.
I am not even discussing the DLine because of course they were better...
But if Beason is healthy i would take this years Lbs in a second over 07...
Beason is much better than Pierce was that year...
Kennard is better than Mitchell and much more versatile...
Thomas vs Torbor/Kiwi is the debate and i will take Thomas because he is more athletic and can cover tight ends something neither Torbor or Kiwi could do...
Our best defensive player blew off a finger. We signed JT Thomas and have inexperience at safety and questionable depth at CB.
Are you really trying to argue this defense vs the 2007 defense? Lol cmon bro.
Quote:
BB'56 - I love the Spags, but the personnel were better, across the board, back then. Certainly, there is a learning curve for this group with his scheme, but I'm not looking for or expecting miracles.
Was the personnel really that much better?
Yes the defensive line was beastly with Tuck Strahan and Osi...
But the LBs were ehh Pierce, Mitchell and Torbor...Pierce was already slowed by the ankle and his gut, Mitchell was good that year but not a world beater and Torbor was ok...
the DBs were a rookie Ross, aging Madison and Mcquarters, James Butler, Gibril Wilson and a rookie Michael Johnson...
I mean the only positional group that stands out is the DLine
Fair question, but I think you underrate the year and the impact Mitchell has on that group; and Torbor was a complementary piece, not a stud, but it all worked. Pierce, even with his limitations, worked.
You also underrate the year Madison had; he was on the tail end of his career, but he was a solid, reliable part of the back 7. Johnson stood out for the big plays he made, Gibril too
I am hopeful about our safeties this year too, but many questions; with DRC and Prince, I worry about their ability to stay on the field; the LBs are a bunch of ??s, other than (hopefully) Kennard. DL, not in the same league except for Hank and we'll see about the DEs
Our best defensive player blew off a finger. We signed JT Thomas and have inexperience at safety and questionable depth at CB.
Are you really trying to argue this defense vs the 2007 defense? Lol cmon bro.
Bringing up last year in this argument is absolutely pointless...how many different faces are on this defense that didnt play last year?
you bring up questionable depth umm who was playing corner in teh dallas game in the playoffs??
how can you bring up last years defense when 1 it is a different coordinator and 2 last year the defense was without Beason, Prince, DRC was playing at 80%, didnt have Collins...
Quote:
A nickel back is more important than a staring OLB on a team playing a 4-3.
Nickel back will be on the field just as many plays if not more.
and hosely will not be the nickel CB
Right. And he'd rather sign Brandon Browner to play nickel? That makes sense?
Quote:
In comment 12415536 ColHowPepper said:
Quote:
BB'56 - I love the Spags, but the personnel were better, across the board, back then. Certainly, there is a learning curve for this group with his scheme, but I'm not looking for or expecting miracles.
Was the personnel really that much better?
Yes the defensive line was beastly with Tuck Strahan and Osi...
But the LBs were ehh Pierce, Mitchell and Torbor...Pierce was already slowed by the ankle and his gut, Mitchell was good that year but not a world beater and Torbor was ok...
the DBs were a rookie Ross, aging Madison and Mcquarters, James Butler, Gibril Wilson and a rookie Michael Johnson...
I mean the only positional group that stands out is the DLine
Fair question, but I think you underrate the year and the impact Mitchell has on that group; and Torbor was a complementary piece, not a stud, but it all worked. Pierce, even with his limitations, worked.
You also underrate the year Madison had; he was on the tail end of his career, but he was a solid, reliable part of the back 7. Johnson stood out for the big plays he made, Gibril too
I am hopeful about our safeties this year too, but many questions; with DRC and Prince, I worry about their ability to stay on the field; the LBs are a bunch of ??s, other than (hopefully) Kennard. DL, not in the same league except for Hank and we'll see about the DEs
Oh dont get me wrong there are plenty of question marks with this team and Health is the biggest one...
My argument is that on paper it is comparable to the 07 defense and to a degree the 08 defense
They may have faded but the 08 defense was much much better all around defense than 07....
DE Osi 07
DT Tuck 07
DT Hankins 15
DE Strahan 07
LB Kennard 15
LB Beason 15(if healthy)
LB Thomas 15
CB DRC 15
S Collins 15
S Wilson 07
CB Prince 15
SCB Ross 07
I have a feeling this turns out to be a good year. I think the Giants are on the rise.
He was the field corner in college, meaning he was the main CB and played the wide side of the field.
Michael Strahan almost didnt come back because he thought the team was going to struggle and he didnt want to be part of a rebuilding team....
No one thought that team was going to be as good as it was...
He is still too damned light to both hold his corner on running plays and get pressure on passing plays, so he guesses one or the other, and gets beat when he guesses wrong.
Just a guess on my part.
But I still think you're way off base in your comparison.
But I still think you're way off base in your comparison.
Guess we will see then...
But if you were wrong about 07, which we all were...why cant you be wrong about your opinion this year?
and i am not even saying this team is going to win the super bowl, all i am saying is this defense is going to be better than people think...
Safeties, total crap shoot, we agree, and we agree on the DL
But I still think you're way off base in your comparison.
and just for reference, michael strahan who was on that team thought the team was rebuilding and needed a lot of work...
Second, can they handle the QB option run? Remember Russell Wilson and Blake Bortles?
If not, then it's the same old Giants D.
Hopefully, we'll see some QB option runs in the pre-season to have some idea as to whether the D has improved against such plays. Seems they made some progress in rushing the passer, having sacked/pressured Andy Dalton over the last two days.
Safeties, total crap shoot, we agree, and we agree on the DL
Hey i will be the first to admit Beason is a risk and that is why i said if healthy...
But yes if Beason is healthy i wiould take him over Pierce every day of the week...
the reason i didnt have mitchell in there is because i think Thomas is a better coverage LB and will be able to cover TEs better than mitchell could...Remember that team was killed by Tight Ends....
Kennard over Torbor or Kiwi is no argument which we agree on...
Second, can they handle the QB option run? Remember Russell Wilson and Blake Bortles?
If not, then it's the same old Giants D.
Hopefully, we'll see some QB option runs in the pre-season to have some idea as to whether the D has improved against such plays. Seems they made some progress in rushing the passer, having sacked/pressured Andy Dalton over the last two days.
Kennard is hopefully going to help with the pass rush...
I think i read that Spags went and studied with Urban Meyer trying to figure out ways to stop the read option...
DE Osi 07
DT Tuck 07
DT Hankins 15
DE Strahan 07
LB Kennard 15
LB Beason 15(if healthy)
LB Thomas 15
CB DRC 15
S Collins 15
S Wilson 07
CB Prince 15
SCB Ross 07
Quote:
I will build the defense based on 07 and this year and i will show how the talent is comparable
DE Osi 07
DT Tuck 07
DT Hankins 15
DE Strahan 07
LB Kennard 15
LB Beason 15(if healthy)
LB Thomas 15
CB DRC 15
S Collins 15
S Wilson 07
CB Prince 15
SCB Ross 07
You would take Torbor or Kiwi over Kennard?
I siad if healthy with Beason if he is not then yes it is PIerce obviously...
People will take Mitchell over THomas because they really have not seen THomas play...I think Thomas ends up being better because of his coverage ability...
Kuhn isn't long for the NFL, imv. That's one spot I'd like to see a Bromley seize the reps and KO Kuhn to free up a roster spot.
Of course it is all hope but he has the talent and he has the leadership ability which you need at the safety spot...
Kuhn isn't long for the NFL, imv. That's one spot I'd like to see a Bromley seize the reps and KO Kuhn to free up a roster spot.
I think they are giving Holsey every chance to win the job. Unfortunately, he isn't taking advantage of the situation.
but the hope is with the talent they do have that they become a good defense...
my whole argument is based on health and how this group comes together....
if Beason goes down, Ayers goes down, DRC goes down, Prince goes down then yes this defense is going to suck...
Simply put it doesnt have the disruptive difference makers that defense had.
Simply put it doesnt have the disruptive difference makers that defense had.
and again my argument is did you think the 07 defense was going to be as good as it was going into the season?
and i will argue that yes that the Dline is not comparable...
BUT
Kennard, Beason If healthy, DRC, Prince, Collins, Hankins all can have an impact and have game changing ability on the defensive side of the ball..
I will also argue that Spags has Corners on this team that he can trust on the outside to play one on one and can be even more creative with blitzes which will help in getting the passer...
Kennard is going to be a huge player for them in rushing the passer...
Again make an argument...i gave my reasons why is that so outlandish?
Beason over Pierce if healthy...how is that outlandish??
Kennard over Torbor or Kiwi how is that outlandish?
the only argument is Thomas over Mitchell and i even admitted that i am more hopeful than others on Thomas...
As for the secondary who would you take over DRC and Prince from the 07 team??
I will take COllins based on his talent over Butler...
I gave you why i chose the players i did...
Quote:
BB'56 - I love the Spags, but the personnel were better, across the board, back then. Certainly, there is a learning curve for this group with his scheme, but I'm not looking for or expecting miracles.
Was the personnel really that much better?
Yes the defensive line was beastly with Tuck Strahan and Osi...
But the LBs were ehh Pierce, Mitchell and Torbor...Pierce was already slowed by the ankle and his gut, Mitchell was good that year but not a world beater and Torbor was ok...
the DBs were a rookie Ross, aging Madison and Mcquarters, James Butler, Gibril Wilson and a rookie Michael Johnson...
I mean the only positional group that stands out is the DLine
Don't forget Kevin Dockery! He was a beast:)
It's possible but highly unlikely this defense plays anywhere near the level of the 07 defense.
You said only the DL unit stood out about the 07 team. What unit stands out on this team? We have virtual unknowns at all three levels.
There were three players on that team who would be the best player on this current defense. Last years defense was one of the worst in the NFL and it's best player lost a finger. We are thin at CB, inexperienced at safety. Sorry if the acquisitions of JT Thomas doenst get my dick hard.
I'm not going to say what you're saying is outlandish but it certainly seems to be a leap of faith. Could I be wrong? Sure, but the odds are in my favor that I'm not.
I have maintained the entire time that my argument is based on health and i have said if Beason gets hurt or DRC or Prince then this team will suck...
My entire argument is based on the LBs and DBs being more athletic than 07 allowing SPags to be more creative which in turn will help the pass rush...
Of course my argument is based on hope it is the off season everything we discuss is based on what we THINK will happen...
Never once did i say i was right or wrong...i am just giving my opinion...never once did i call you a troll for your opinion..
In the 1978 Cotton Bowl, Notre Dame played a powerful Texas team that relied on the QB option run.
Notre Dame won 38-10 because its defense keyed on the FB- Dan Devine figured out that if you stopped the inside hand-off to the FB, you stop the option QB because there really is no option. Golic and Mike McCoy stopped the FB.
Easier said than done, but wonder if Meyer told Spags that if you stop someone like Beast Mode you stop Wildon's option run?
In the 1978 Cotton Bowl, Notre Dame played a powerful Texas team that relied on the QB option run.
Notre Dame won 38-10 because its defense keyed on the FB- Dan Devine figured out that if you stopped the inside hand-off to the FB, you stop the option QB because there really is no option. Golic and Mike McCoy stopped the FB.
Easier said than done, but wonder if Meyer told Spags that if you stop someone like Beast Mode you stop Wildon's option run?
The best way IMo to stop the option is everyone has a role and a key guy...as long as everyone is on the same page you can stop it...
You just can not get to cute with it...
If your defensive end has the QB and he crashes your fucked...everyone has to be on the same page...
I remember in HS we use to play Morris Knolls and they ran the triple option our coach was a moron and basically had our MLB play every single part of the option...meaning he had the dive guy, QB and pitch guy...we got smoked....
If i was Spags i would do it this way...DTs and MLB callapse on RB...
Defensive end and outside LB have Qb....
if it is triple option...Safety and CB have pitch guy....
However, if they do hold onto him, lets hope he can be a 3rd down pass rush guy to start the season and works his way back into being a solid player for the second half of the season as he acclimates. If he isn't a bonafide bull rusher by mid-season, well, we won't do much for the stretch.
Second, how will our safeties perform? We are awfully young back there. It looks like Collins and Jackson will start right now with Taylor a backup.
Third, how long will it take for them to master the new scheme? It took the 2007 Giants a few games and I believe the same will be the case here, maybe longer as the safeties are so young.
Health: we have minimal depth at CB and maybe even LB now that veteran McLain is hurting. This is a team that needs a healthy year since we've been the league's most injured team for 2 years running. An NFL record.
Finally, who will rush the passer with JPP likely out?? I say Moore, Ayers from the outside and Hankins and Jenkins from the inside on 3rd downs. JPP may rotate in if kept but he won't be football ready early in the season.
I see Dallas blowing our doors off game 1 in their house. I just don't think the defense will have it together that early against that OL. A lot can happen from now until that game (ex. Injuries) but I just don't think we have the kind of OL we need to protect Eli and the defense has "average" talent at safety (youth makes them average at best right now); average talent at LB; and below average pass rush until proven otherwise.
I'm hoping for 9-7 at this point, had a better year slated before Beatty and JPP were hurt.
Bromley didn't do anything last year.
Moore cannot play the run
Yet Kuhn is the Whipping Boy?
Quote:
I was just highlighting the linebacker silliness. I didn't want to spend energy dealing with the secondary silliness.
Again make an argument...i gave my reasons why is that so outlandish?
Beason over Pierce if healthy...how is that outlandish??
Kennard over Torbor or Kiwi how is that outlandish?
the only argument is Thomas over Mitchell and i even admitted that i am more hopeful than others on Thomas...
As for the secondary who would you take over DRC and Prince from the 07 team??
I will take COllins based on his talent over Butler...
I understand where you are coming from and they are fair points but c web down the stretch was like glue I would take him over both drc and prince
And not just DT frustration, plenty of other positions/ranks are frustrating.
As a result I thought of him as being cut by the Jets.