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If the Giants are going to be a different team in 2015

I Love Clams Casino : 8/16/2015 2:24 pm
from that team they were in 2013 and 2014, what would have you expected to see on Friday night against the Bengals?

If the Giants are going to be the same team they were in 2013 and 2014, what would have you expected to see on Friday night?

Serious question.

I Love Clams Casino  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/16/2015 2:29 pm : link
Loaded questions.

We need to see much better defense, but anyone with half a brain knows that the team is going to struggle early on defense if for no other reason than the new system.

You know who didn't play well on Friday? Eli and Odell. But I don't think that will be true in September.

You can't take much from the first preseason game. If you want to take any preseason game seriously, take the third one.
Better players on the field.  
RDJR : 8/16/2015 2:31 pm : link
Especially on the OL and on defense.
Cheerleaders  
Headhunter : 8/16/2015 2:32 pm : link
.
I have hope  
I Love Clams Casino : 8/16/2015 2:36 pm : link
especially for Newhouse and Flowers....I am hoping these positions of concern become non-concerns. I think the Giants are starting to turn the corner....I honestly do, but I don't have the "eye" for it like some BBI'ers do......
I would have liked to have seen  
JFIB : 8/16/2015 2:41 pm : link
At least some level of execution. Football is the ultimate team sport and all 11 players need to execute their responsibilities for a play not to fail. It seemed as though there were breakdowns of some kind on every play. Eric is right in so far as its too early to evaluate the new defense. The offense should have been further along and more effective than we saw.
The Giants are what they are...  
Doomster : 8/16/2015 2:42 pm : link
Everyone ASSUMES the offense will be better....most assume the defense will be worse with no line or safeties....

It's possible both are better.....but there is definitely a lack of talent in the backups, that has to be addressed....can only hope the waiver wire provides some relief....

One again, this team will go through growing pains, and hopefully, it plays meaningful games in November this time.......

One preseason game doesn't show much.....Nov. 16th will tell us what kind of team we have....
What's  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/16/2015 2:46 pm : link
interesting is to see Tom Rock's article on how limited the Giants were in terms of the offensive packages they employed in the game. They haven't incorporated their downfield installations yet. That's this week.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/16/2015 2:50 pm : link
If the Giants were to happen to crush the Jaguars on Saturday, it would mean as little as the Giants getting crushed by the Bengals.

But I bet you a bunch of BBI posters would start posting how great we will be in 2015.

You get the work in during the preseason and pray for no injuries.
We are in limbo right now  
superspynyg : 8/16/2015 2:50 pm : link
We have no idea what our oline will look like week one, since the health questions remain about Schwartz, inexperience of Flowers and Richburg, and the skill level of Newhouse. Pugh is the only oline who really has no questions.
The truth  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/16/2015 2:58 pm : link
of the matter is that the Giants are picked to finish 3rd in the NFC East by many for a reason. Dallas is the clear cut favorite to win the division. We'll be big underdogs on opening night.
I Remember A Particular Undefeated (6-0) Pre-Season,  
clatterbuck : 8/16/2015 2:59 pm : link
media schmoes like Dave Klein talking up how the Giants were ready to challenge the Cowboys and the RacialSlurs, followed by a 2-12 regular season.
Clams..  
EricJ : 8/16/2015 3:01 pm : link
IF we were to show improvement, we would have controlled the line of scrimmage better on both sides of the ball. It really is that simple.
RE: Clams..  
I Love Clams Casino : 8/16/2015 3:23 pm : link
In comment 12420766 EricJ said:
Quote:
IF we were to show improvement, we would have controlled the line of scrimmage better on both sides of the ball. It really is that simple.


I disagree. Teams have different ways of approaching pre-season games, and they progress at different rates, even 3 to 4 games into the year. Giants approach has always been that the preseason game 1 and 2 are little more than full contact practice sessions.
Coaches that try to win preseason games  
Headhunter : 8/16/2015 3:30 pm : link
are usually new hires that want to instill a "winning culture"
Run the ball, stop the run  
Remdad : 8/16/2015 3:34 pm : link
If they don't do that this year, they aren't different. EricJ says control the LOS, which is much the same thing.

I don't think failure to do this can be explained by vanilla packages. They would have run the ball better, but they are hiding all their new and innovative run packages just so they can use them in game 1? I don't think so. Running the ball isn't about fooling the defense as much as it is about executing. You should practice what you are going to do - and it should work, at least to some extent, in preseason.

And stopping the run isn't really scheme-related, either. You're not exactly coaching your linemen to get blocked so you can see how your back 7 tackles.
RE: Coaches that try to win preseason games  
robbieballs2003 : 8/16/2015 3:36 pm : link
In comment 12420801 Headhunter said:
Quote:
are usually new hires that want to instill a "winning culture"


So why does TC always say that he wants to win these games?
Remdad  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/16/2015 3:37 pm : link
Yes and no.

The disturbing thing about the few snaps the first-team defense played was the Bengals ran up the gut a couple of times.

However, a lot of running yardage came from the mobile QB and misdirection plays (i.e., the Bengals fooled the young, over-aggressive ends with some plays specifically designed to fool them....not so much losing the battle at the point).
I don't ever remember TC  
Headhunter : 8/16/2015 3:42 pm : link
making a point to win an exhibition game other than list it last on what he wants out it. He tries to win them for sure, make a point of it to the media? I don't remember
How could they be better?  
Josh in MD : 8/16/2015 3:43 pm : link
OK, we added 3 promising draft picks, an OT, a safety, and a DE, whom we have reason to hope may develop into really good players--over time. And we lost our best safety to free agency (or call it to age) and our best OT and TE to injury.
Can we expect Flowers, Collins, and Odi to be better this year than Beatty, Rolle, and JPP? If not, it seems more likely we will be worse. No?
RE: RE: Coaches that try to win preseason games  
montanagiant : 8/16/2015 3:45 pm : link
In comment 12420815 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 12420801 Headhunter said:


Quote:


are usually new hires that want to instill a "winning culture"




So why does TC always say that he wants to win these games?

To let those draftees and new signed players know what is expected of them while they are being evaluated
Need more talent on defense  
JonC : 8/16/2015 3:46 pm : link
More on the OL would also be preferable, but the DE, DT, and CB ranks need some prospects to develop quickly.
Eric  
Remdad : 8/16/2015 3:48 pm : link
OK, point taken.

But we were fooled an awful lot last year by misdirection, particularly from quarterbacks. I'd like that to be better this year, too.
In evaluating this team for this season  
Headhunter : 8/16/2015 3:48 pm : link
I get all the negatives but hardly anyone mentions that Cruz and Beckham from game 1 gives the Giants a chance against anybody even if the defense stinks. The can win any game with that duo controlling the game
Every time I hear TC  
robbieballs2003 : 8/16/2015 3:54 pm : link
His two things are winning and coming away healthy.

Now, I agree with you that "winning" by itself isnt the biggest thing. Eric keeps pointing to our record last year in the preseason. The problem with that is Corey Washington had like 4 game winning TDs or something like that. Our first team and in some cases our second team didnt get the job done. Anybody who paid attention last year knows that which is why bringing up the record means little which is what Eric is trying to point out.

Where I disagree with Eric is with him saying if we go out and dominate Jacksonville then that doesn't mean anything. Not true. We need to execute, like you said. If we are executing and doing the little things to win like knowing your assignments, running the right routes, recognizing the blitz, reading the defense, running to the ball, taking the block on with the correct leverage, wrapping up, playing smarts, etc. then we can absolutely hang our hat on that. We are not doing that yet regardless of the win or loss.

Ultimately, I think that is what TC means when he says he wants to win. He always does no matter what it is. Win your battle. Win this series. Win the day. Win the game. Also, like you said earlier, coaches want to change the culture. Well, our culture is that of a losing nature lately. We have to change that. That is part of what Spags is doing with going back into the history of the Giants. Now, winning preseason games isnt the end all be all. However, it is nice to have something to build off of. If we are losing these games then we probably arent playing well. If we are winning then there is most likely a stepping stone for your team to build off of.
there's been no comment  
oke49 : 8/16/2015 4:14 pm : link
explaining TC's polar opposite comments of their play during scrimmages and during the game. He sounded quite pleased w/ the team's performance in practice and sounded perplexed at their game peformance , even said something about it at the post game presser. Were they intimidated, lazy or just inconsistent?
...  
ColHowPepper : 8/16/2015 4:39 pm : link
Hh, I hope you knocked wood when you wrote that; I'm not willing to assume VC is going to begin the season in 2013 form; it's a long way to go from his (so far near miraculous) rehab and recovery to doing it in games, dealing with contact

robbie, solid post; in recent years execution seems to have been in short supply with this team and it has carried over, irrespective of Exhibition W-L record
RE: Eric  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/16/2015 4:42 pm : link
In comment 12420829 Remdad said:
Quote:
OK, point taken.

But we were fooled an awful lot last year by misdirection, particularly from quarterbacks. I'd like that to be better this year, too.


I expect we will have issues again with this when the young guys are playing.
RE: I Love Clams Casino  
Matt M. : 8/16/2015 4:46 pm : link
In comment 12420704 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Loaded questions.

We need to see much better defense, but anyone with half a brain knows that the team is going to struggle early on defense if for no other reason than the new system.

You know who didn't play well on Friday? Eli and Odell. But I don't think that will be true in September.

You can't take much from the first preseason game. If you want to take any preseason game seriously, take the third one.
I don't know if Eli or Odell played poorly. But, I think it is fair to say that they certainly didn't play great. For example, if Odell or Randle actually stopped for the back shoulder fade, things are different. Likewise, if Parker holds on to a ball in his gut on 3rd down things are different.
I was looking for 2 things  
Matt M. : 8/16/2015 4:51 pm : link
One was better running, which came down to the OL doing a better job at the point of attack. The other was a better job stopping the run. I thing the single biggest culprit from the starting D was Kuhn. He played so bad that is absolutely fair, after one game (plus his past couple of seasons) to say he shouldn't be on this team. At best, he is the #5 DT. I certainly hope he started as a nod to someone who has been here and not because they view him as a starter.

I am not willing to give the D a long time to adapt. Even in his first time around, I think Spags D was good, but not great. He benefitted hugely from having a deep and dominating DL. Other than that, I thought his schemes were OK, but they relied chiefly on the DL play. If our current DL doesn't step it up, I expect a long season defensively. I think we will be better no matter what, because I think they were just that bad under Fewell. So, just about anything is an improvement.
For the little we were expecting to see  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 8/16/2015 5:23 pm : link
I wanted to see some execution as Eric said. It looked like they were totally out of sync and this was their first practice.

WR were terrible and were the real reason the drives were stalled , I suspect we will see a difference this week .

Defensively, I think they were very vanilla and Kuhn is no where's near a starter.
can't see it happening  
bbfanva : 8/16/2015 5:26 pm : link
they haven't made any significant move towards improving the area they needed the most help. This season will be a continuation of the failure from last year unless a few young guys step up.
Kevin  
Matt M. : 8/16/2015 5:27 pm : link
Kuhn is not just "nowhere near a starter". At this point, he shouldn't be playing on anything other than a terrible team. He should not be in any kind of rotation or on the roster of a contending team. And, yes, I do expect this team to contend.
I agree Matt .. Let's  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 8/16/2015 5:45 pm : link
Hope the other DT's play dictates Kuhn being moved way down. Bromley for one had to be pissed where he was on the depth chart .


This offense was clicking at the end of the year , they can and will score a ton of points!

RE: RE: Clams..  
EricJ : 8/16/2015 5:59 pm : link
In comment 12420794 I Love Clams Casino said:
Quote:
In comment 12420766 EricJ said:


Quote:


IF we were to show improvement, we would have controlled the line of scrimmage better on both sides of the ball. It really is that simple.



I disagree. Teams have different ways of approaching pre-season games, and they progress at different rates, even 3 to 4 games into the year. Giants approach has always been that the preseason game 1 and 2 are little more than full contact practice sessions.


I will have to maintain my position on this Clams. In game 1, there is little scheming happening and it is all about beating the buy in front of you. No matter what Coughlin's game plan is for the early pre season games, you want to see your linemen (O and D) NOT getting "owned" by the guy in front of them. Showing that you are winning in the trenches is absolutely a key indicator to ME.
RE: How could they be better?  
Milton : 8/16/2015 6:23 pm : link
In comment 12420825 Josh in MD said:
Quote:
OK, we added 3 promising draft picks, an OT, a safety, and a DE, whom we have reason to hope may develop into really good players--over time. And we lost our best safety to free agency (or call it to age) and our best OT and TE to injury.
Can we expect Flowers, Collins, and Odi to be better this year than Beatty, Rolle, and JPP? If not, it seems more likely we will be worse. No?
You include the loss of Beatty, Rolle, and JPP; but you leave out the return of Cruz, Prince, Schwartz, Jennings, McBride, and Beason. And the additions of Vereen, J.T. Thomas, Casillas, and Ellis (not to mention Newhouse, who isn't as bad as some say and is certainly a step up from Charles Brown).

The key thing is health. Better health will mean a better team than last year. A much better team!
All I know  
nyynyg : 8/16/2015 7:57 pm : link
is I seem to remember half this board squawking about how deep of a roster we had last pre-seasons and how good we felt about some phenomenal performances by depth in the first pre-season game. Let me remember how things ended up for us.

I say this for no other reason that to say relax and let's see how things progress over the next couple pre-season games.
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