remember when the ink was drying on his last deal? He was the highest paid QB then too. Then other QB's signed their subsequent deals and others became highest paid.
Two Lombardis, two Super Bowl MVPs, and (as BBI often complains) all that with lousy drafting, a crappy O-line, a shaky defense and whatever else you care to say.
Also keep in mind that negotiations are about taking positions, then compromising. If I were Eli's agent, that's the position I'd take, too.
Eli will be in the same ballpark.
And the Giants will pay it.
Period.
I swear. As a Giants fan worried about top 100 problems facing the Giants including inexperience in the Defensive Backfield, a patchwork OL, and leading the league in injuries Eli's contract is like problem 573.
He was the highest paid player for his last deal Â
...even the very best of Eli could not lead this team back into the playoffs and -- if we could get several high picks for him -- we trade him and start all over again with a very favorable cap situation and lots of premium draft picks.
Just a thought for a team that is seriously in need of a talent infusion at many positions.
...even the very best of Eli could not lead this team back into the playoffs and -- if we could get several high picks for him -- we trade him and start all over again with a very favorable cap situation and lots of premium draft picks.
Just a thought for a team that is seriously in need of a talent infusion at many positions.
It makes for good banter, but I don't see the franchise ending the relationship that way. He's going to retire with this team.
It may not sound like Eli, but it sounds exactly Â
I think it's very believable that Condon opened the bidding at a number that had some component exceeding Rodgers, dollars per year, total value, guaranteed etc.
Clever headline, but I seriously doubt Eli walked into someone and said I'm not signing if I make less than Rodgers.
RE: It may not sound like Eli, but it sounds exactly Â
is it an agent's job to set up their client for ridicule by the talking heads and media? doesn't sound like something Eli would want Condon floating in the media.
This is the perfect time for Condon and co to make some noise somewhat passive aggressively. The Giants are in a position to clear some space to make a move filling an additional need if they lock up Eli now. They know that. So does Condon.
That said, Rivers and Rapist are due for deals too. Eli set the market last time. Now it's his turn.
They have all the leverage and it's just business. Either way, the Giants will make Eli whole and he's not going anywhere.
And of course Eli wants to be the highest paid QB. Who wouldn't?
The difference that most of the mouthbreathing public and non-Giants fans don't get is that Eli would never say he needs to be the highest paid QB. But this will be blown up as usual.
Fuck Rappaport. But he just NEEDS his Twitter followers. That's where we are now folks. Sad.
There were rumors a week ago that Rivers was going to test Â
Two Lombardis, two Super Bowl MVPs, and (as BBI often complains) all that with lousy drafting, a crappy O-line, a shaky defense and whatever else you care to say.
Also keep in mind that negotiations are about taking positions, then compromising. If I were Eli's agent, that's the position I'd take, too.
for a contract that is good for the Giants and good for Eli to take another run. Would be nice to have a few extra dollars to sign a player or two that may help the overall cause.
to dig deep into his pockets with those alligator arms of his. He fleeced the loyal Giant fan with his PSL scheme and delivered a sub standard stadium that resembles my kitchen toaster in the greatest sports city in the world. If anyone deserves the respect with a pay day its Eli.
It's not as if they need the cap room at this point (they're not signing Long or Mathis, folks), especially given the money that will be saved when JPP starts missing games.
So if Tom Condon wants Eli to be the highest paid QB in the game, let Eli have an MVP season leading the Giants to another Super Bowl. If I'm the Giants I'm okay with Eli earning his next contract based on what he accomplishes in 2015 rather than basing it on what he's accomplished from 2004-2014.
got. How can he possibly want much more than that. They both have 2 SB wins, Ben has 3 SB appearances and probably has been a more consistent performer in his career. It will get done.
But Eli Manning deserves every penny of ANY contract he can get. He has given it all to Big Blue and I will never forget. Piece of shit sportswriters want to stir up trouble. What they can't understand is when a player does things like Eli did against San Fran in the 11 run.....they cease to be players and become football heroes. Eli punched his ticket to the Hall of Fame that day.......and did things no fan should ever forget...or stop appreciating.
What they can't understand is when a player does things like Eli did against San Fran in the 11 run.....they cease to be players and become football heroes.
And his performance in the 2007 NFC Championship Game was equally heroic.
It wouldn't be for any one position. It shouldn't here. The first one he didn't even have a strong game and they won by shutting down the greatest offense in NFL history. You don't pay the QB more because of that game 8 years ago.
The player he is now and going forward shouldn't be asking to be the top paid player at his position. If he is, the Giants shouldn't give it to him.
Beckham has the Randy Moss impact and can make any QB very good. If Eli wants top dollar let him walk and use the money on other players.
It wouldn't be for any one position. It shouldn't here. The first one he didn't even have a strong game and they won by shutting down the greatest offense in NFL history. You don't pay the QB more because of that game 8 years ago.
The player he is now and going forward shouldn't be asking to be the top paid player at his position. If he is, the Giants shouldn't give it to him.
Beckham has the Randy Moss impact and can make any QB very good. If Eli wants top dollar let him walk and use the money on other players.
You only take that position when you can walk him out the front door and sneak Andrew Luck in the back door.
QBs get paid. This is the reality of the league. Especially accomplished ones, it's not the same as other positions.
Plenty of teams would be thrilled to pay Eli top dollar. Â
Let's not make it sound like he's trying to rob the Giants blind here. A quarterback of Eli's caliber is the only thing that separates teams like the Jets, Bills, Texans, etc. from serious Super Bowl contention. Hard to even put a price tag on that. Now if we're blowing up the ship and starting over - different story.
KWALL, the market will adjust again after the Eli deal Â
And just because condon wants him to be, it doesnt mean he will be. You ask for as much as possible, they counteroffer, you agree somewhere in the middle.
Has done for this franchise, for NY is immeasurable. He is the face of NY sports ... We are all aware of his accolades on the field and what he is capable of, but what he does off the field and how he has presented himself throughout his career is just as important.
He can play at a high level still for a number of years, he is in the wheelhouse of his prime.
You must first PROTECT him, then pay him. Pretty simple.
And big drop to the rest of the pack. Rodgers is on another level. Eli isn't close to him. Same with Lucks and Brady. All 3 are much better players. He shouldn't be talking about getting paid he best when he isn't close to the top.
And big drop to the rest of the pack. Rodgers is on another level. Eli isn't close to him. Same with Lucks and Brady. All 3 are much better players. He shouldn't be talking about getting paid he best when he isn't close to the top.
Should he get more than Brady and Rodgers? No, of course not. No one is arguing that. However here are the QBs who are listed after Rodgers.
Wilson, Rivers, Ben, Newton, Ryan, Flacco, Tannenhill. He will absolutely get paid as much as Rivers and Ben and deservedly so.
He will never make as much as Muck, as he will sign next offseason for an NFL record, and becomes the highest paid player in the NFL. The only reason why players are as close to rodgers as they are as many of them jsut recently signed their deals in retrospect to what he makes. Remember Rodgers signed his deal in 2013 and is STILL the highest paid QB which is really, really surprising and shows how good he really is.
Its the same story every time one of these qbs signs a big deal.. Their contracts look much higher than others who signed previously, but its all about when you sign. Luck's contract is going to BLOW away Rodgers.... but that doesnt mean he blows away Rodgers as a Qb either.
pocket the highest commission ever paid to an NFL quarterback's agent.
Eli couldn't give a shit about being paid more than all of the other NFL quarterbacks. That's not him. Doesn't mean he doesn't want to get paid, but he wouldn't put that kind of stipulation in his instructions to his agent.
pocket the highest commission ever paid to an NFL quarterback's agent.
Eli couldn't give a shit about being paid more than all of the other NFL quarterbacks. That's not him. Doesn't mean he doesn't want to get paid, but he wouldn't put that kind of stipulation in his instructions to his agent.
It's not as if they need the cap room at this point (they're not signing Long or Mathis, folks), especially given the money that will be saved when JPP starts missing games.
So if Tom Condon wants Eli to be the highest paid QB in the game, let Eli have an MVP season leading the Giants to another Super Bowl. If I'm the Giants I'm okay with Eli earning his next contract based on what he accomplishes in 2015 rather than basing it on what he's accomplished from 2004-2014.
There is no hurry. Eli isn't going anywhere.
Agree with this.
This season too important, too potentially transitional to make long term commitment to 34 year old QB.
A terrible year and subsequent rebuild with a new staff is not a good scenario for either the 35 year old QB or the new coaches.
Really, really would be tragic to see Eli/Coughlin era end in those kind of flames.
Time to win now and then Eli gets his biggest-ever contract. Coughlin retires. McAdoo ascends.
You think Eli and Condon are going to risk losing 75 million dollars behind that shitshow that Reese has trotted out there this year?
No way.
Well, I guess as a Giants fan I appreciate this sentimate, but not really. From my point of view he is under contract (a contract that made him the league's highest paid player at the time).
His life is own to manage. His $17mm salary, numerous multi-million dollar endorsement deals, fame and family connections is protection enough.
sets the rate for free agents. In all pro sports how often does the best player at a position recieve the highest pay?
The comment above about how Eli may recieve the highest contract until the next franchise QB recieves theirs is accurate.
That said how is Eli not close to Rodgers? Eli's resume stands second to no one. Eli is also the only QB to actually carry his team to a title with the passing game (2011). Set the record for passing yards in the playoffs that year and brought home the Lombardi. Went through the great Rodgers and the Pack like shit through a goose to win it that year as well. Tap me on the shoulder when Rodgers has a conference title game performance like Eli has had in '07 or' 11, not even to mention two super bowl winning TD drives.
I also agree that Eli and his agent would be taking a risk to trot out this year without a long term deal seeing how the front office seems unable to provide a competent line.
If he refuses to honor his contract he refuses to honor his contract his accrued status as a veteran/FA might well be affected adversely from his perseoective.
In any event Giants own his rights for 2016. They could franchise tag him.
At 34 years old you think Eli would give up to years of his career?
The Giants are not going to give up 20 million per year... Â
This is much ado about nothing, because this deal will get done before the season starts, book it.
That said, I do find the lack of respect Eli gets, even the proposition that he should play out the final year of his contract without an extension, from Giants fans to be pretty damn sad.
It wouldn't be for any one position. It shouldn't here. The first one he didn't even have a strong game and they won by shutting down the greatest offense in NFL history. You don't pay the QB more because of that game 8 years ago.
The player he is now and going forward shouldn't be asking to be the top paid player at his position. If he is, the Giants shouldn't give it to him.
Beckham has the Randy Moss impact and can make any QB very good. If Eli wants top dollar let him walk and use the money on other players.
Eli did not have a strong game in the first SB? Only QB to ever lead a TD drive in a Super Bowl when only a TD could win it. Basically the most clutch QB performance of all time, this against "The greatest team of all time". That was also his second TD drive of the quarter. If that is not a strong game we have very different opinions on what a QB's job is. Again let me know when the defied Rodgers has a career accomplishment equal to this.
I do agree that a game eight years ago in amd of itself should have little bearing on negotiations today. But, it is not as if Eli was crap from then to now. He delivered another title and is clearly a franchise QB. I also think he could play until forty, what would diminish, his footspeed?
RE: The Giants are not going to give up 20 million per year... Â
This is much ado about nothing, because this deal will get done before the season starts, book it.
That said, I do find the lack of respect Eli gets, even the proposition that he should play out the final year of his contract without an extension, from Giants fans to be pretty damn sad.
Britt. if you re-read my original post, I think you'll see that I was saying that, from both the franchise's point of view AND FROM ELI'S, in the event of a catastrophic year it might be better if Eli moved on.
Neither I nor Milton dissed him as a player or his place in NYG history.
Despite what I think you may be right. He could be signed before the season. I think he likes QBing this team. Hopefully if he does sign a new deal it will be the best thing for him from a football standpoint.
This is much ado about nothing, because this deal will get done before the season starts, book it.
That said, I do find the lack of respect Eli gets, even the proposition that he should play out the final year of his contract without an extension, from Giants fans to be pretty damn sad.
And if Eli were to elect to sit two years, he wouldn't be paid. Giants would re-coup salary cap money like with Pierre-Paul.
Eli is under contract is my point and not in a position to pull a power-play that might not be in his best football interests anyway. Given the hypothetical prposed in the previous sentence is impossible given Eli's disposition/character.
Can you name me the last franchise type quarterback... Â
Last one I can think of was Drew Brees, and we saw how that season ended for him. Now luckily for him, it wasn't a career threatening injury like initially thought. Luckily (or unluckily depending on how you view it) for the Chargers, they had drafted Brees' replacement with the number one overall pick (basically) two years prior. We don't have a number one overall pick waiting in the wings.
RE: Give one good reason, if you're Eli and Condon, Â
Sports leagues have done a tremendous job of spinning players into the greedy ones when they look to make market value - there are always silly comments about how they make enough, etc.
I'm surprised the deal hasn't already been done, but I'm sure it will be prior to the season starting.
Yes go ahead and make him the highest paid QB in the league. The next top 10 QB that needs a new contract, will be the next highest paid QB in the league. That's how it works. The salary cap increase by no small amount every year so salaries go up every year.
Stop saying SBs and SB MVP shouldn't count. Of course they count. Both SBs were won first and foremost because of Eli. Yes other players made a big impact but none more than Eli (thus the MVPs). Yes SB MVPs typically go to the QB (just over 50%) but Eli has won 2 for 2 (100%). Russel Wilson 0 for 2. Big Ben 0 for 3, Brady 3 for 6, Peyton 1 for 1, Rogers 1 for 1, Brees 1 for 1, etc. I give the nod to Brady for also going 2 for 2 before his 3rd appearance.
Yes Brady should be the highest paid QB in the league but he intentionally sacrificed that right. Hell he's married to the highest paid supermodel in the owrld and she makes more than he does (even though she's semi-retired).
I've said this before in another thread about Eli. Why do people think you can just blow up a team and get a new QB so easily. The last franchise QB we had was Simms and Eli is better than Simms was. Hell Eli is the best QB the Giants have ever had. No disrepsect to Simms, Tarkenton, or Tittle but Eli has proven to be the best.
It's true people don't know what they have till it's gone. Pay the man his money!
I literally snickered when I read the subject line of this thread. Â
Eli deserves a huge contract, no question. We all know this.
The only thing that sticks in my mind is, suppose the team goes 2-14 this year and really stinks it up. If what Mara said is true, the coaching staff will be fired and we will go into a full rebuilding mode.
Do we want to pay Eli to lead the rebuild at 34 years old?
Eli deserves a huge contract, no question. We all know this.
The only thing that sticks in my mind is, suppose the team goes 2-14 this year and really stinks it up. If what Mara said is true, the coaching staff will be fired and we will go into a full rebuilding mode.
Do we want to pay Eli to lead the rebuild at 34 years old?
If this team goes 2-14, there are a lot more issues than the quarterback. And yes, you would rebuild around a franchise 34 year old quarterback. Fill in all the other pieces, while at the same time looking for the next QB.
Eli will get what is fair compared to what his peers are making. If it makes him the highest paid QB for several months, so be it. IMHO, he's proven his worth 10-fold.
Eli deserves a huge contract, no question. We all know this.
The only thing that sticks in my mind is, suppose the team goes 2-14 this year and really stinks it up. If what Mara said is true, the coaching staff will be fired and we will go into a full rebuilding mode.
Do we want to pay Eli to lead the rebuild at 34 years old?
This is kind of what happens at the back end of a franchise QB's career. If you don't want him to play for another team (they don't) then you kind of operate on his schedule. He thinks he's got years left. He's producing like he's got years left. They want him here. They're obligated to put a team around him until he hangs it up or asks out.
is fine, he should not have to give an unnecessary discount in the negotiations.
the giants should not pay him more than brady, peyton, Rodgers, brees, or flacco. he should be in the same ballpark as what Russell Wilson received, with a shorter term given eli's age. the giants should slot him in at the start of the negotiations as somewhere around the 8th-10th best paid QBs.
Eli has won 2 super bowls and has shown he can deliver in high pressure situations. that said, even with the talent deficiencies, coaching changes etc. he has not been consistent game in game out. the giants have missed the playoffs three years in a row and 5/6 years. In the ten years that Eli has been the starting QB from start of the year to finish, the Gmen have only made it out of the first round of the playoffs twice. 80% of the years he has been the starting QB, the giants have missed the playoffs or have been eliminated in the first round. Contrast that with the above mentioned QBs who all have higher rates of getting to the playoffs year in year out (sometimes with shaky offensive lines, running games, coaching and defenses) and advancing in the playoffs.
You don't pay the QB more because of that game 8 years ago.
Beckham has the Randy Moss impact and can make any QB very good. If Eli wants top dollar let him walk and use the money on other players.
Eli is really good QB yet he is 34 yrs old. Even the Giants have mentioned "he's no kid". Coming off of multiple unsuccessful years, an aging QB and an older coach put the Giants at a crossroads IMO. I can't see the Giants not extending Eli yet i can buy the thought hesitation as the record is what it is regardless of whose fault it might be.
A few short time ago I wondered how could the Giants find a QB if they needed one as it appeared so many teams would need a QB. I figured Brady, Peyton & Brees would retire and the crop of Ben, Rivers and Eli might be either moved or retire by this time. All those players are still in the league, meanwhile teams which were looking for QB's have either found them or drafted a QB it's too early to give up on. The Vikings, Jags, Bucs, Titans & Raiders all filled the vacancy while the Rams extended Foles for two years. Will Manziel work out in Cleveland? Miami, SF & Seattle recently tied up their young QB.
So the list appears of teams looking for a QB has shortened dramatically over a short time. Jets, Bills, Texans, Redskins and Chiefs might be the only teams interested in QB while the Cards & Rams signed their veteran QB's for only a few years.
If the Giants flop to approx 6-7 wins i wonder if they would make a play for a Heckenberg (assuming he plays better) being the competition of teams likely looking for a QB next year appears fewer than usual with that number likely increasing dramatically within a few years.
an opening salvo in a long negotiation. As somebody said, this is a long process. You can never rule anything out, but it's very unlikely Eli isn't extended with a new contract.
"I think we'll get it done at some point in time," Giants owner John Mara said Thursday. "We're just going through the usual things that you go through. The agent asks for the moon, we make a reasonable offer, at some point he'll come to his senses and we'll have an agreement. There's nothing unusual about any of this."
Sports leagues have done a tremendous job of spinning players into the greedy ones when they look to make market value - there are always silly comments about how they make enough, etc.
I'm surprised the deal hasn't already been done, but I'm sure it will be prior to the season starting.
Brett, I agree with you.
In a league where its teams finds every way to get EVERY LAST DOLLAR from any and all revenue sources they can drain money from (and they do it), if a player wants to do the same, he is looked at negatively because the fans feel he impacts the teams "ability to win" because of the salary cap implications.
So you get to make a truckload of money and still position the players as selfish. What a great way of having it.
Eli couldn't give a shit about being paid more than all of the other NFL quarterbacks. That's not him. Doesn't mean he doesn't want to get paid, but he wouldn't put that kind of stipulation in his instructions to his agent.
as though Saint Eli would never do something so selfish.
Chargers fans might have something to say about that.
Nevertheless, hopefully its just an opening salvo of negations.
I agree with you to an extent. Though I don't believe that trying to get paid the highest possible salary is in any way selfish. It's the business side of things. Not selfish at all, IMO. These players should try to get the most money they can. If they are worth it, teams will give it to them.
I could easily see Eli saying he wants to make a certain amount of money. But I find it hard to believe that he cares about the "status" of being the highest paid QB in the NFL. Had the article said "Eli wants $110 million extension" I would believe it. I take issue with the idea that he has this need for the status of being the highest paid NFL QB which is implied in the wording, though I could be completely wrong.
when you say Eli doesnt deserve to get paid as much as Joe f'n Flacco.
This place f'n blows.
Nobody said that but carry on.
Um, yes they did. Carry on being the biggest shitstain on the board. Here's a thought before replying to a single poster, go and reply to Bill2 first. The place was better when you went into hiding from the beat down he gave you.
Sports leagues have done a tremendous job of spinning players into the greedy ones when they look to make market value - there are always silly comments about how they make enough, etc.
I'm surprised the deal hasn't already been done, but I'm sure it will be prior to the season starting.
Brett, I agree with you.
In a league where its teams finds every way to get EVERY LAST DOLLAR from any and all revenue sources they can drain money from (and they do it), if a player wants to do the same, he is looked at negatively because the fans feel he impacts the teams "ability to win" because of the salary cap implications.
So you get to make a truckload of money and still position the players as selfish. What a great way of having it.
I think of Terrell Thomas who was apparently close to signing an extension before his pre-season injury in 2011. Guys should always try to maximize their value in this league, regardless of what they've made historically. I think fans often get a bit silly - don't get me wrong, I'd love for Eli to take a contract at $1M a year, but I'm not going to be mad at him if the Giants overpay him (theoretically).
Eli has money in the bank. TT was getting one of his main pay days.
I understand the cascading feedback loop of QB contracts and why Eli will probably get this, but lets be real - he is not worth this money. He's great and I'm one of his biggest supporters, but he should not be getting paid more than Luck or Rodgers (based on value alone).
is just as clutch as Eli, has a 65% overall winning percentage vs 56% for Eli, has won a super bowl and is a few years younger.
lol. I didnt know Flacco was responsible for every single one of their wins. Oh wait, your the poster who said wins are the basis of valuing QBs.
Quote:
Eli is not week in week out an elite QB - some weeks he's on fire if everything is working, other weeks he looks awful. He is not going to make plays happen with his legs unless the field is wide open and he doesn't have the same escapability that he did earlier in his career.
Let's have a look at where he ranks among active QBs in win/loss records courtesy of the football database compared to others who have at least 20 starts under their belt since at the end of the day, winning is what counts the most (in this metric, he is above average):
All GamesRegular SeasonPostseason
Player GS W L T Pct
Tom Brady 226 173 53 0 0.765
Russell Wilson 45 33 12 0 0.733
Peyton Manning 271 184 87 0 0.679
Colin Kaepernick 37 25 12 0 0.676
Ben Roethlisberger 165 111 54 0 0.673
Andrew Luck 44 29 15 0 0.659
Aaron Rodgers 104 68 36 0 0.654
Joe Flacco 118 76 42 0 0.644
Vince Young 51 31 20 0 0.608
Philip Rivers 146 88 58 0 0.603
Nick Foles 25 15 10 0 0.600
Andy Dalton 58 34 23 1 0.595
Drew Brees 205 121 84 0 0.590
Matt Ryan 107 63 44 0 0.589
Tony Romo 120 70 50 0 0.583
Eli Manning 171 97 74 0 0.567
Alex Smith 101 55 45 1 0.550
Mark Sanchez 68 37 31 0 0.544
Michael Vick 113 60 52 1 0.535
Rex Grossman 51 27 24 0 0.529
Jay Cutler 114 60 54 0 0.526
Matt Hasselbeck 163 85 78 0 0.521
Matt Moore 25 13 12 0 0.520
Kyle Orton 74 38 36 0 0.514
Matt Schaub 92 47 45 0 0.511
Ryan Tannehill 40 20 20 0 0.500
Tarvaris Jackson 35 17 18 0 0.486
Cam Newton 57 27 29 1 0.482
Shaun Hill 27 13 14 0 0.481
Carson Palmer 144 69 75 0 0.479
Matt Cassel 72 33 39 0 0.458
Derek Anderson 44 19 25 0 0.432
Matthew Stafford 70 30 40 0 0.429
Robert Griffin III 32 13 19 0 0.406
Jason Campbell 79 32 47 0 0.405
Christian Ponder 36 14 21 1 0.403
Josh Freeman 60 24 36 0 0.400
Josh McCown 41 16 25 0 0.390
Sam Bradford 49 18 30 1 0.378
Ryan Fitzpatrick 86 31 54 1 0.366
Chad Henne 53 18 35 0 0.340
Colt McCoy 22 7 15 0 0.318
Blaine Gabbert 27 5 22 0 0.185
Followed by....
Quote:
a QB is a key component of a winning team. yes, wilson and big ben had strong defenses helping them but both of them can do things eli can't as effectively - improvise and make plays when the called play breaks down. we'll see how wilson's numbers turn up at the end of his career. wins and losses is not the be all and end all but it's telling - and based on that and even factoring in some differences in surrounding talent over the years, i think that is a fair place of where eli is in the pecking order.
there are some anomalies to be sure - vince young had the benefit of some strong titans teams and carson palmer was on some brutal bengals teams.
but in the big picture is eli really that great or are some people looking at things through rose colored glasses?
Move along people. I forgot what I was dealing with last year. This is the same poster who thought Eli should have been cut at the end of last year.
has taken his team to the playoffs and won at least one round of the playoffs in 6 out of his 7 years in the league. That is remarkable, consistent performance. And it's not like he has been throwing to pro bowl receivers in their prime year in year out and he is not asked to simply be a "game manager".
is a major reason why the ravens have made it to the playoffs and won at least one game in the playoffs in 6/7 years - 87% of the time. if you are insinuating that flacco was lifted by superior surrounding talent, I disagree completely. you could also say that eli would not have gone as far as he did without a running game and clutch defensive plays.
is a major reason why the ravens have made it to the playoffs and won at least one game in the playoffs in 6/7 years - 87% of the time. if you are insinuating that flacco was lifted by superior surrounding talent, I disagree completely. you could also say that eli would not have gone as far as he did without a running game and clutch defensive plays.
Oh you mean the same running game that was last in the NFL in 2011? you mean the same season where without Eli the Giants would of had 4 wins...you mean the same season with all of the 4th quarter comebacks??
First off. Eli led the worst rushing attack and 26th ranked defense to the super bowl in 2011. So I would consider that a lack of talent around him. But lets stick with flacco....
Baltimore run game compared to NYG.
2014:
8th vs. 23rd
2013
29th vs. 30th
2012
11th vs. 14
2011
10th vs 32nd. Yes the Giants were dead last when they won the SB
2010
14th vs. 6th - the last time the NYG were better in the ground game.
2009
5th vs. 17th
2008
4th vs. 1st
So for 5 out of his 7 years, Baltimore had a top 10 running game. only 2 years did Eli have a better ground game. Flacco never ONCE threw for 4,000 yards or 30 TDs in a season. But lets not get facts in the way of yet another unsupported rant.
Flacco's Baltimore teams rushing yards rankings since 2008...
8,30,11,10,14,5,4. Average 11.71 (Guess which year they missed the playoffs?)
Much, much better than Eli's NYG teams have managed. Which, btw, is 18.43 and 17.43.
Bottom line, put Flacco on Eli's teams and vice versa and you'd have the same result in making the playoffs and not. Oh, except NYG wouldn't have won SB 46.
he went into Lambeu TWICE and beat the Packers..in 2007 him and Plaxico put on a show in below freezing weather...
He beat a Bill Belichek and Tom brady led team TWICE one was an undefeated team that was said to be unbeatable, and drove down the field TWICE in the last 2 minutes to win the game...
He went into San Francisco and got absolutely crushed and still got up and led that team to the superbowl, there is a point in the game where his helmet is sideways and he is still get players lined up for the next play...
he went into Dallas against a team that beat them twice in the regular season and led them down on a clutch drive to end the half with a minute left for a TD and without that they lose that game...
Give me a fucking break with this ELi was carried by his defense and running game...
a debate on what the exact dollars are or should be exhausting and will take all in circles.
Still feel the only debate here is a business one of whether it makes sense to give a big contract if they may blow things up if things don't turn out well this season.
Frankly I think that goes for any big money player, giving a large contract and boxing any portion of the salary cap in if a new regime, new staff is going to come in. That just gets exacerbated at QB which is the position Eli plays. This is not about Eli the man and player, it could be any player under center for us.
And guess what, it would be the logical thing to say even if we had any of the aforementioned players that have high contracts and were in their contract year. Brees, Brady, P Manning, Rivers, Ben...all of them. It changes the conversation from being about Eli.
even if you are rebuilding you do not get rid of your star QB Â
UNLESS you have another one lined up like the Colts had with Luck or the Packers had with Rodgers....
the hardest thing to find for a rebuilding team is the QB...if you have one you do not get rid of them, it is much easier to rebuild with a QB already in place...
Look at the Jets or Bills both teams have the defenses and the weapons yet they do not have a QB and their team is a question mark...
you put ELI on either of those teams and they are super bowl contenders instantly...
up about Eli's "leverage" over the NY Giants. Basically states that Eli's team knows that it would cost the team at least $50 million over the next two years to franchise him, so that is the number they are looking for.
Also speculates that the team is spinning it as Eli seeking to be the highest player but Eli is really just using the numbers he knows he would get under a franchise tag to negotiate a longer deal.
Nothing earth shattering here, but interesting enough, IMO.
I would be disappointed if the Giants were the ones to leak this info. The last thing Eli needs this close to the season is to answer for this BS. But I don't see how it benefits Eli and his camp to leak the info. The silly outrage from fans certainly puts pressure on Eli to sign for less. I just think it's a pretty pathetic move this close to the season.
he could name 15 NFL quarterbacks better than Eli.
His co-host said, "Not with two Super Bowl MVPs ... you have to factor that in, to be fair."
North responded that Eli got lucky ... and "was in the right place at the right time."
Oy.
Beezer,
I feel like that's the general opinion of Eli by non Giants fans and media people. To be fair, there are fans and media people who give him his props, but overall I seem to get that impression. Like he got lucky, or the defense really won it. It's almost as if they have this opinion of him and now it's etched in stone.
That's why I hope this new system can allow him to get really good stats. Even if we don't win another SB, if he can produce very good numbers, that will hopefully go far in changing peoples opinions.
when you say Eli doesnt deserve to get paid as much as Joe f'n Flacco.
This place f'n blows.
Why? Emotion and homerism aside Flacco's 4 years younger, and in his first seven years there really isn't a meaningfully measurable area of Flacco's performance that isn't better than Eli's during his first 7. Eli threw 8 more TD's in that span, but 23 more picks.
A very logical case can be made that, say, a 5 year contract for Flacco should be higher than such a contract for Eli. Put it this way -- if they were both free agents I know who most teams would prefer to pay more to.
I don't know who Mike North is, or what his background in football Â
is, but he does not sound like a football guy. He sounds like a general sports coverage guy. I can see a general sports fan making a comment like that, they aren't football people. Knowledgeable fans, and respected analysts wouldn't make an asinine comment like that.
when you say Eli doesnt deserve to get paid as much as Joe f'n Flacco.
This place f'n blows.
Why? Emotion and homerism aside Flacco's 4 years younger, and in his first seven years there really isn't a meaningfully measurable area of Flacco's performance that isn't better than Eli's during his first 7. Eli threw 8 more TD's in that span, but 23 more picks.
A very logical case can be made that, say, a 5 year contract for Flacco should be higher than such a contract for Eli. Put it this way -- if they were both free agents I know who most teams would prefer to pay more to.
I disagree with this comoletely. Eli bounced back with a very good year and can still play for years to come. Eli is a better QB who has played with worse talent around him ad proven by multiple posters.
I am not knocking Flacco as a player, but eli has every right to ask for money per year than flacco.
and if teams want flacco over eli.... they are making a mistake.
Of course money is the main element of the negotiations. What other factors go in to it? I ask because I genuinely don't know. I usually don't follow contract negotiations and let them just play out until I hear what happened but this thread made me wonder. Could Eli have any input in saying, "OK, I am a little flexible re: salary cap provided you improve the O line to protect me better." Or could he make any demands re: players or coaching (I want you to keep Coughlin as long as I'm here). While I think Eli would want as much money as possible, I can't see him demanding so much money that it takes away from the Giants ability to pay for other positions that need to be upgraded, especially if the team suffers any more major and/or season-ending injuries.
Whether or not Eli wants to be the highest paid QB - who knows but I seriously doubt he actually said that and want to know who Rappaport's source is. Totally ridiculous, IMV, and just something to start a shitstorm.
Love Eli, he should try to get as much as he can. Â
Eli is a better QB who has played with worse talent around him ad proven by multiple posters.
Can not be "proven" as objectively true. For example, if you're working backwards from "Eli is great and unfairly maligned," you're already predisposed to dismiss the talent around him and inflate the talent around his other QB peers. Flacco had Ray Rice, sure, and a great defense, but there's no logical system that can assess how much their greatness minimized Flacco's contribution to his team's success that can't also be applied to the very-above-average wide receivers Eli has enjoyed playing with his entire career.
Probably the best way to compare would be to watch some arbitrarily decided amount of plays -- say, the first 500 plays of each of their 2014 season -- from each player and adjust for other mitigating factors, like another player's injury or return from injury. If you do that, are you really sure that Flacco at 4 years younger (not an insignificant factor here) wouldn't be more appealing to most GM's? I wouldn't be.
the protect him and pay him argument. Isn't it one or the other? If you pay him...where is the money to pay the OLine? There is still a salary cap, right?
when you say Eli doesnt deserve to get paid as much as Joe f'n Flacco.
This place f'n blows.
Why? Emotion and homerism aside Flacco's 4 years younger, and in his first seven years there really isn't a meaningfully measurable area of Flacco's performance that isn't better than Eli's during his first 7. Eli threw 8 more TD's in that span, but 23 more picks.
A very logical case can be made that, say, a 5 year contract for Flacco should be higher than such a contract for Eli. Put it this way -- if they were both free agents I know who most teams would prefer to pay more to.
thank you. and those 23 picks impacted some of the team defense numbers cited, because they were either pick sixes leading directly to points against, or resulted in very good field position for opponents. Eli has made more jaw dropping, highlight reel throws over his career, but he's also made more boneheaded, WTF was he doing plays.
when you say Eli doesnt deserve to get paid as much as Joe f'n Flacco.
This place f'n blows.
Why? Emotion and homerism aside Flacco's 4 years younger, and in his first seven years there really isn't a meaningfully measurable area of Flacco's performance that isn't better than Eli's during his first 7. Eli threw 8 more TD's in that span, but 23 more picks.
A very logical case can be made that, say, a 5 year contract for Flacco should be higher than such a contract for Eli. Put it this way -- if they were both free agents I know who most teams would prefer to pay more to.
thank you. and those 23 picks impacted some of the team defense numbers cited, because they were either pick sixes leading directly to points against, or resulted in very good field position for opponents. Eli has made more jaw dropping, highlight reel throws over his career, but he's also made more boneheaded, WTF was he doing plays.
You were proven wrong by about 5 people. You should leave the discussion for the people who know what they are talking about.
Flacco has had a batter defense and a better run game for his entire career and has thrown for less yards, tds, and a lower completion percentage than Eli during the 7 years he has played.
But your right, he was the MAIN reason why Baltimore went to the playoffs all these years. If you are going to make up shit, at least admit when you have been proven wrong.
7 years of data has proven that flacco has had a really good defense and run game. All have statistically performed better than the Giants. I dont know how that get be dismissed when talking about the talent surrounding the QBs. Two other posters brought up the stats, not me.
Les said so himself that he highly disagreed that Flacco has played with more talent around him, and that he was the reason why the Ravens were in the playoffs year after year.
But what about these stats:
- he has only been top 10 in passes completed once. Only twice has he been top 10 in attempts. Where as eli has been top 10 in completion 6 times and attempts 6 times as well.
- Flacco has been top 10 in passing TDs once. Eli 8 times
- Flacco has never been in top 10 in yards thrown. Eli 5 times.
- Flacco has been top 10 in YPA once. Eli 4 times.
- He has been i nthe top 10 of INTs less than eli, but also been in the top for more fumbles than Eli.
If there was ever a QB who was technically a bus driver, its Flacco. But again, I dont know if this is more proof or not on whether Eli deserves more money than Flacco. It certainly shows that he has done more though.
If you're talking up Eli's playoff runs, Flacco did the same (actually better).
When BAL won the SB, he had 11 TDs - 0 picks in the playoffs and SB and close to a 120 QB rating in these 4 games. It was consistent too. In each game he was consistently outstanding. He also made a number of sick throws and plays.
Flacco carried them to two playoff wins (including SB) when the D allowed 30+ points.
3 of the BAL playoff opponents had top 10 defenses. The 2 games the BAL D allowed 31 and 35 were vs Den and SF. These 2 had the #4 and #2 defense in the NFL in points allowed. Vs these top defenses, BAL scored 38 and 35 while Flacco threw for 600+ with 6Tds and 0 picks.
BTW, vs SF In SB, Rive averaged less than 2 YPC. The team averaged 2.4 YPC on 35 carries.
If you're argument is Eli is big in the big games then you have to say the same about Flacco.
YOu must not have paid attention to last year. He cut down on picks and raised his completion %.
Ignore him. He is another poster who is a gem during the game threads wherever Eli throws an incompletion he goes and says something of the likes "Where's Nassib" or the "bad eli out playing today" or the ever intelligent "Eli sucks."
One of many here. But none will ever admit or have the balls to say that they think Eli sucks.
If you're talking up Eli's playoff runs, Flacco did the same (actually better).
When BAL won the SB, he had 11 TDs - 0 picks in the playoffs and SB and close to a 120 QB rating in these 4 games. It was consistent too. In each game he was consistently outstanding. He also made a number of sick throws and plays.
Flacco carried them to two playoff wins (including SB) when the D allowed 30+ points.
3 of the BAL playoff opponents had top 10 defenses. The 2 games the BAL D allowed 31 and 35 were vs Den and SF. These 2 had the #4 and #2 defense in the NFL in points allowed. Vs these top defenses, BAL scored 38 and 35 while Flacco threw for 600+ with 6Tds and 0 picks.
BTW, vs SF In SB, Rive averaged less than 2 YPC. The team averaged 2.4 YPC on 35 carries.
If you're argument is Eli is big in the big games then you have to say the same about Flacco.
I have nothing to disagree with there. Much liek eli, he has played better in the playoffs. The point of this conversation though is that Flacco has not been the driving force for all of Baltimore's success. To be frank, in the regular season, it could be said he was along for the ride more than anything.
If you're talking up Eli's playoff runs, Flacco did the same (actually better).
When BAL won the SB, he had 11 TDs - 0 picks in the playoffs and SB and close to a 120 QB rating in these 4 games. It was consistent too. In each game he was consistently outstanding. He also made a number of sick throws and plays.
Flacco carried them to two playoff wins (including SB) when the D allowed 30+ points.
3 of the BAL playoff opponents had top 10 defenses. The 2 games the BAL D allowed 31 and 35 were vs Den and SF. These 2 had the #4 and #2 defense in the NFL in points allowed. Vs these top defenses, BAL scored 38 and 35 while Flacco threw for 600+ with 6Tds and 0 picks.
BTW, vs SF In SB, Rive averaged less than 2 YPC. The team averaged 2.4 YPC on 35 carries.
If you're argument is Eli is big in the big games then you have to say the same about Flacco.
KWALL is dropping some serious knowledge here. Couldn't have possibly said it any better.
we've done a fair job of restocking Eli's targets with good WR's. The best WR's Flacco has had were essentially Torrey Smith and a well past his prime Steve Smith. Neither of those guys can hold a candle to a handful of WR's we've had come through.
I dont know how that get be dismissed when talking about the talent surrounding the QBs.
Because there isn't this easy-to-quantify NFL player trait called "talent," a figure that you can create an objective total figure on your roster and then say, "See? Eli achieved his success despite a total talent quotient of 103.2, whereas Flacco had a much higher 160!"
Sure, like every other non-Giant player in the NFL, Flacco played with some players who played their positions better than the players on the Giants played theirs. But the opposite is true as well. You can't just take stats from various positions, say, "X benefitted from Y, but A's performance was diminished by B!" and call that "proof."
Pro Football Focus-Eli Manning not in the top 20 Â
is pretty good is not ripping Eli. The guy has played pretty good ball. He's younger. He has better physical tools.
One posters saying on the open market, Flacco would get more is probably right.
I dont think anyone is saying Flacco sucks.... but if we are going on how the produce.... Eli deserves the same if not more than Flacco. If people think Eli is an average regular season QB.... cant you say the same thing about him?
I dont know how that get be dismissed when talking about the talent surrounding the QBs.
Because there isn't this easy-to-quantify NFL player trait called "talent," a figure that you can create an objective total figure on your roster and then say, "See? Eli achieved his success despite a total talent quotient of 103.2, whereas Flacco had a much higher 160!"
Sure, like every other non-Giant player in the NFL, Flacco played with some players who played their positions better than the players on the Giants played theirs. But the opposite is true as well. You can't just take stats from various positions, say, "X benefitted from Y, but A's performance was diminished by B!" and call that "proof."
You may not be able to do it with individual players, but you most certainly can do it for units. Are you going to argue that the Giants have had better defenses and run games than the Giants the last 7 years? Despite the what the outcomes and stats say?
RE: Dep, that's a bit disingenuous to say Flacco was along for the ride Â
we've done a fair job of restocking Eli's targets with good WR's. The best WR's Flacco has had were essentially Torrey Smith and a well past his prime Steve Smith. Neither of those guys can hold a candle to a handful of WR's we've had come through.
my post was about how strong their run game and defenses have been. If you look at Flacco's regular season numbers (especially the ones I just posted), they are what average is. Its not farfetched to say in the regular season he is asked to do a lot less than most QBs as his number of passes attempts/completed, TDs, and Yards indicate.
He's a very good qb. Id probably put him somewhere around 10-12. But I dont think he is better than Eli. If we rip Eli for INts and being in accurate - you can definitely say the same things about him as well.
Statistically speaking Eli has always been a top ten to 15 Â
Qb. But never top 5. So his contract should reflect that instead of comps. 20 years down the line these types of issues will no doubt be solved by an algorithm that calculates the statistics relevant to the position.
better talent line doesn't add up for me. Eli had an exceptional run game too for many years and much better talent at WR.
I also wouldn't agree with Eli deserves more than Flacco right now. He's older. He's not as physically gifted. There more risk with Eli going forward from this point to fail to play up to a huge deal.
I hope he stays in NY and plays 4-5 more years. I just think any talk that he should be the highest paid QB is ridiculous.
better talent line doesn't add up for me. Eli had an exceptional run game too for many years and much better talent at WR.
I also wouldn't agree with Eli deserves more than Flacco right now. He's older. He's not as physically gifted. There more risk with Eli going forward from this point to fail to play up to a huge deal.
I hope he stays in NY and plays 4-5 more years. I just think any talk that he should be the highest paid QB is ridiculous.
If there OL wasnt good, how were they a top 10 rushing team just about every year he has been in the NFL? Sure, Eli has played with some good OLs. But you dont have a bad OL and rush with the success that they had.
when judging a QB is winning, including playoff wins.
the number of completed passes, passing attempts and yardage are not indicative metrics when judging a QB. a lot of completed passes and yardage could happen in garbage time when the giants have been down big and playing against softer defenses, which has happened a lot in recent years.
Flacco was not exactly handed the keys to the 1999 st Louis rams or the 1995 san Francisco 49ers. his surrounding talent has been consistently average. and his defenses have not been on the same level as the 2000 ravens or the 2002 bucs as examples. he's not a trent dilfer or brad Johnson.
people are also glossing over Eli's INTs but turnovers are game changers. there is a reason every coach harps on winning the turnover battle. you protect the ball and you have a better chance of winning. and Eli's INT numbers have been in the bottom half of all QBs. granted, some of that was gilbride's system, but some of it was he's not on the same page as his receivers.
Again, 6 out of his 7 years in the league, flacco has won at least one playoff game with the ravens. eli has only done that 2 out of his 11 years in the league. factor in he's 4 years younger than eli, flacco deserves to be paid more.
when judging a QB is winning, including playoff wins.
the number of completed passes, passing attempts and yardage are not indicative metrics when judging a QB. a lot of completed passes and yardage could happen in garbage time when the giants have been down big and playing against softer defenses, which has happened a lot in recent years.
Flacco was not exactly handed the keys to the 1999 st Louis rams or the 1995 san Francisco 49ers. his surrounding talent has been consistently average. and his defenses have not been on the same level as the 2000 ravens or the 2002 bucs as examples. he's not a trent dilfer or brad Johnson.
people are also glossing over Eli's INTs but turnovers are game changers. there is a reason every coach harps on winning the turnover battle. you protect the ball and you have a better chance of winning. and Eli's INT numbers have been in the bottom half of all QBs. granted, some of that was gilbride's system, but some of it was he's not on the same page as his receivers.
Again, 6 out of his 7 years in the league, flacco has won at least one playoff game with the ravens. eli has only done that 2 out of his 11 years in the league. factor in he's 4 years younger than eli, flacco deserves to be paid more.
remember people this is the same poster who said brady and peyton had little tale to work with over their careers.
so instead of taking what he says in context. just ignore. he is by far and away the biggest eli hater in this forum.
Are you going to argue that the Giants have had better defenses and run games than the Giants the last 7 years? Despite the what the outcomes and stats say?
No, but I'm also not going to argue that those Ravens units somehow automatically decrease Flacco's own abilities, as if through magic.
If you're talking up Eli's playoff runs, Flacco did the same (actually better).
When BAL won the SB, he had 11 TDs - 0 picks in the playoffs and SB and close to a 120 QB rating in these 4 games. It was consistent too. In each game he was consistently outstanding. He also made a number of sick throws and plays.
Flacco carried them to two playoff wins (including SB) when the D allowed 30+ points.
3 of the BAL playoff opponents had top 10 defenses. The 2 games the BAL D allowed 31 and 35 were vs Den and SF. These 2 had the #4 and #2 defense in the NFL in points allowed. Vs these top defenses, BAL scored 38 and 35 while Flacco threw for 600+ with 6Tds and 0 picks.
BTW, vs SF In SB, Rive averaged less than 2 YPC. The team averaged 2.4 YPC on 35 carries.
If you're argument is Eli is big in the big games then you have to say the same about Flacco.
How many of those playoff games that you mention happened to be at home or on the road. It always amazes me in these discussions that the fact that Eli has won more playoff games on the road with a team that barely made the playoffs gets convenitely overlooked when he is discussed
Ralph's reporting on this is much clearer than Rapoport's, FWIW. Â
Eli Manning doesn't necessarily want to be the highest paid player in football. But he does expect to be at the top of his class.
That's the real benchmark in the contract negotiations for the Giants quarterback, according to multiple sources familiar with the situation.
Both Philip Rivers and Ben Roethlisberger, the other two quarterbacks from the first round of the 2004 draft, have already received lucrative contract extensions this off-season worth in the neighborhood of $21 million per season.
Manning is looking to be paid at least as much as, and likely more than, both.
So far the Giants offer hasn't been in that financial neighborhood, which is why a source told the Daily News there remains a “significant gap” between the two sides in negotiations.
How many of those playoff games that you mention happened to be at home or on the road. It always amazes me in these discussions that the fact that Eli has won more playoff games on the road with a team that barely made the playoffs gets convenitely overlooked when he is discussed
Well, two of the playoff games they won on their way to the Super Bowl were on the road, including the one featuring a pretty impressive comeback against the Broncos.
How many of those playoff games that you mention happened to be at home or on the road. It always amazes me in these discussions that the fact that Eli has won more playoff games on the road with a team that barely made the playoffs gets convenitely overlooked when he is discussed
Well, two of the playoff games they won on their way to the Super Bowl were on the road, including the one featuring a pretty impressive comeback against the Broncos.
Well how many of Eli's playoff wins were on the road? How many of them were we the underdogs?
I'm willing to beat there were quite a few in comparison, would you not agree?
QBs can have fine seasons and still not make the playoffs.
So the QB that has the benefit of the better or healthier roster should be paid more because of the players around him?
every stat needs context, but in my view sustained winning is the most important one. if there is one position on the team that has the biggest impact on whether a team wins or not it's the QB spot.
trent dilfer was an average/below average QB, who lucked out in 2000 when he played on a team with an all time great defense...but that defense didn't play at that elite level year after year and he did not have the same wining consistency in tampa and seattle. you could say the same thing about brad Johnson, Hostettler and a number of other QBs that caught fire leading amazing defenses but left with non-superstar supporting casts could not sustain the same success year after year.
I never saw archie play so I can't comment on what kind of QB he was.
Marino had a 61% winning percentage and regualrly got his teams into the playoffs, but he never was able to win the big one. I would not use him as an example of a great QB that lingered on bad teams.
All I'm trying to say is that when the Giants are negotiating Eli's contract and looking at how other comparable Qbs are being paid, Flacco deserves to at be in that analysis. I know it's a tough pill for the Saint Eli believers who go crazy whenever someone like me suggests that maybe other QBs are just as good if not better and/or present a balanced/objective evaluation of Eli..... and label me as anti-Eli or an Eli hater which I am absolutely not.
if a QB puts up worse stats and plays at a lower level than another QB, but his surrounding players are better that helps him win more.... he deserves more money.
Said the guy who thinks Peyton and Brady played with hardly any talent in their careers.
Oh, and one more gem from the guy who likes to hypocrite himself. One thing he has said about Eli.....
That a lot of the drops our WRs had last year were eli's fault. Again, this guy is the biggest Eli hater on the board. He wanted to cut him last year. This guy knows absolutely NOTHING about the position. He just has an Eli axe to grind. It's sad, yet pathetic at the same time.
QBs can have fine seasons and still not make the playoffs.
So the QB that has the benefit of the better or healthier roster should be paid more because of the players around him?
every stat needs context, but in my view sustained winning is the most important one. if there is one position on the team that has the biggest impact on whether a team wins or not it's the QB spot.
trent dilfer was an average/below average QB, who lucked out in 2000 when he played on a team with an all time great defense...but that defense didn't play at that elite level year after year and he did not have the same wining consistency in tampa and seattle. you could say the same thing about brad Johnson, Hostettler and a number of other QBs that caught fire leading amazing defenses but left with non-superstar supporting casts could not sustain the same success year after year.
I never saw archie play so I can't comment on what kind of QB he was.
Marino had a 61% winning percentage and regualrly got his teams into the playoffs, but he never was able to win the big one. I would not use him as an example of a great QB that lingered on bad teams.
All I'm trying to say is that when the Giants are negotiating Eli's contract and looking at how other comparable Qbs are being paid, Flacco deserves to at be in that analysis. I know it's a tough pill for the Saint Eli believers who go crazy whenever someone like me suggests that maybe other QBs are just as good if not better and/or present a balanced/objective evaluation of Eli..... and label me as anti-Eli or an Eli hater which I am absolutely not.
You are about as objective on the Eli as HRC is on her personal email server. If you want proof on how you are the biggest anti-Eli guy on the site.... I would gladly supply the shit you turned up last year. I have done it once, and Ill do it again.
if a QB puts up worse stats and plays at a lower level than another QB, but his surrounding players are better that helps him win more.... he deserves more money.
Said the guy who thinks Peyton and Brady played with hardly any talent in their careers.
Oh, and one more gem from the guy who likes to hypocrite himself. One thing he has said about Eli.....
That a lot of the drops our WRs had last year were eli's fault. Again, this guy is the biggest Eli hater on the board. He wanted to cut him last year. This guy knows absolutely NOTHING about the position. He just has an Eli axe to grind. It's sad, yet pathetic at the same time.
you were not paying attention to the lesson, son.
Flacco has not had significantly better surrounding talent than Eli over the course of their careers. He's never had a prime Plaxico, Nicks, Cruz and Beckham to throw to. The Giants defense was a mess in 2009 and 2014, but the Ravens D was not world class year in year out.
Peyton had Harrison and Wayne and Brady had Moss for a couple of years, but they've also repeated their winning success, year after year, with different offensive lines, running backs, and supporting receivers. They have not been blessed with superior surrounding talent than Eli over the course of their careers.
I did not say that a lot of the drops were Eli's fault. That is either a lie, your foggy memory, your twitchiness to respond to posts within seconds even after a day of delay ,or your lack of reading comprehension. I may have said that one or two specific drops that you blamed on the receivers in post game threads, were actually throws that were off target/behind the receiver and would have been incredibly difficult catches.
I have no axe to grind with Eli. I do have an axe to grind with Eli homers who labels anyone that critizes Eli as a hater. I'm a Giants fan first and I value the team winning above anything else and I don't want the Giants to overpay for Eli if it means we are not going to be able to spend on other parts of the team and consequently lessen our chances of fielding the best possible talent.
QBs can have fine seasons and still not make the playoffs.
So the QB that has the benefit of the better or healthier roster should be paid more because of the players around him?
every stat needs context, but in my view sustained winning is the most important one. if there is one position on the team that has the biggest impact on whether a team wins or not it's the QB spot.
trent dilfer was an average/below average QB, who lucked out in 2000 when he played on a team with an all time great defense...but that defense didn't play at that elite level year after year and he did not have the same wining consistency in tampa and seattle. you could say the same thing about brad Johnson, Hostettler and a number of other QBs that caught fire leading amazing defenses but left with non-superstar supporting casts could not sustain the same success year after year.
I never saw archie play so I can't comment on what kind of QB he was.
Marino had a 61% winning percentage and regualrly got his teams into the playoffs, but he never was able to win the big one. I would not use him as an example of a great QB that lingered on bad teams.
All I'm trying to say is that when the Giants are negotiating Eli's contract and looking at how other comparable Qbs are being paid, Flacco deserves to at be in that analysis. I know it's a tough pill for the Saint Eli believers who go crazy whenever someone like me suggests that maybe other QBs are just as good if not better and/or present a balanced/objective evaluation of Eli..... and label me as anti-Eli or an Eli hater which I am absolutely not.
You are about as objective on the Eli as HRC is on her personal email server. If you want proof on how you are the biggest anti-Eli guy on the site.... I would gladly supply the shit you turned up last year. I have done it once, and Ill do it again.
lol, you calling me out for not being objective on Eli is actually the funniest thing I've read on my 20 years on BBI, or at least tied with bavarofan's pee stain.
These are all gems from Les in TO, you know the objective one:
Quote:
whereas elite quarterbacks like peyton brady and luck can overcome talent deficinecies surrounding them with their smarts, leadership and athleticism respectively, eli needs a solid running game and pass protection to be at his best.
So lets break down this gem. You see all that talent deficiency brady and Peyton had: You know the Wayne, Harrions, Edge James, Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Emmanuel Sanders, Dallas Clark, Julius Thomas, Wes Wlker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Randy Moss, edelman. How these two ever overcome this talent? And as far as their OLines. I guess guys like Jeff Saturday, Logan Mankins among many other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
And we all know that Eli needs a solid running game and defense to win it all. The 32nd ranked run game and the 26th ranked defense carried him in 2011.
Lets continue...
Quote:
and if asante samuel holds on to the INT in Super Bowl 42 and kevin williams gets out of the way of the weatherford punt, Eli has Zero Super Bowls.
Seems your are disappointed that the Giants won. Pathetic.
Going on...
Quote:
but he has his limitations athletically
Yes this is a reason to get rid of him. Because you know guys like Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford are so fleet a foot.
Quote:
some of the drops were his receiver's fault, but he gets some of the blame too.
There you go people, even if he puts right into the WRs hands, Eli is too blame as well.
Quote:
if eli has inexperienced guys around him it's on him as the leader of the offense to put in the extra time to make sure they are all aligned and to put in the extra time with someone else to be that safety blanket.
You hear that guys. If a guy like Preston Parker is playing, Eli needs to put more time in the film room so he can be a pro bowler. Forget he has taken UDFA and made them look good. And took a guy who barely practiced last year in the preseason, missed 4 games, and somehow the two formed a great combo that the league couldnt stop. Damn you Eli!!!!!
Quote:
he also cannot escape pressure or create plays with his legs, which is an underappreciated skill set from giants fans as we haven't had a mobile QB since hostettler.
Its amazing that even analyst said one of Eli's strength is his mobility in the pocket. And I think we have see nEli escape some plays here and there, but not Les. He likes a guy like RGIII. Lets run around and get knocked out!
Quote:
A great QB can cover up deficiencies in line or skill position talent so yeah his lack of playoff appearances is partially on him
Name ONE QB who won consistently and got into the playoffs with no talent around him.
Quote:
We need to completely tear down and rebuild this team including the QB position.
Yep, you are an objective fan. Get rid of eli!!! NOW!!!!!
Quote:
We need to rebuild; new coach new system a QB that can keep defended honest with an occasional run
Yep, McAdoo was a complete failure last year. And we need a running QB!!!!!! YES!!!!
Quote:
average in others (seattle, atlanta, houston and indy)
This was a remark about how he played against teeams. In those 4 teams where he played average, Eli threw 7 TDs and 1 INT and we won 2 of those games. I think his completion perentage was rather high too. But he's objective. He said so himself.
backing Eli and supporting him. Just like you should say you dont like him and wish he were off the team.
You're right though, I dont understand why fans support players from their own teams, especially when he has produced 2 SB trophies as the QB and has had a lot of great games throughout the years. The nerve of those fans!!!!
If you believe big money goes to franchise QBs you pay him. Â
Period..His arm is strong and he's healthier than Ben and Rivers..He's years younger than Brees, Brady, Peyton..
This is a league that has teams able to compete in any given year..Prior years don't mean all that much in today's NFL..What matters is the health of your roster, starters and their backups, imo..
you have ignored my many posts praising Eli's strengths. you have also completely taken the posts above out of context. and in other instances, you clearly misread or didn't understand what I posted.
I don't need to and won't preface my praise of another QB, or why the Giants should not roll over in contract negotiations with Eli, by also repeating all of Eli's strengths, just to keep Eli superfans from being offended.
you have ignored my many posts praising Eli's strengths. you have also completely taken the posts above out of context. and in other instances, you clearly misread or didn't understand what I posted.
I don't need to and won't preface my praise of another QB, or why the Giants should not roll over in contract negotiations with Eli, by also repeating all of Eli's strengths, just to keep Eli superfans from being offended.
I'm done with you on this thread.
So when you say we need to gut the roster, including the QB... that means you want to keep him? Help a simple folk out. how did I take that out of context?
and when you said peyton and brady played with less talent and i listed all the pro bowl/HOF players they played with... how did I take that out of context?
and where you said part of the drops by wrs were eli's fault.... how did I take that out of context by saying you blamed eli?
do you want me to keep going? I posted what YOU said and didn't change one word of it. but thrn again, your objective. ... HAHAHA
I think it's best you not only leave the thread but leave the forum as well. it was my pleasure exposing you.
at you say we overrate eli... yet you put the likes of cruz, nicks, Burress in the same sentence as wayne, harrison, james, moss, gronk....
here's a newsflash.... the giants have had 3 pro bowl selections from their WRs since 2007. brady and peyton have had players make more than that themselves. but again. I won't let facts get in the way if another mindless rant from you.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Flacco was the reason they won the SB Â
Well how many of Eli's playoff wins were on the road? How many of them were we the underdogs?
I'm willing to beat there were quite a few in comparison, would you not agree?
I don't really honestly know -- I'm sure the Ravens had a few more road playoff games, and they probably were considered underdogs in some, but looking back through Vegas archives isn't appealing. But what would be the point? Have we decided that road playoff victories are a demonstrably better barometer of a QB's worth than things like putting together a few 12+ win seasons?
It just seems like we're scrambling to come up with measures that place Eli ahead of a guy like Flacco. When you do that, the measures themselves tend to be flawed.
whereas elite quarterbacks like peyton brady and luck can overcome talent deficinecies surrounding them with their smarts, leadership and athleticism respectively, eli needs a solid running game and pass protection to be at his best.
other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
Look, it's not Les' fault you either didn't spot the word "respectively" or don't understand what the word means.
You have to at least entertain the idea that you're so ingrained a particular position that it leads you to assign positions or arguments to others, so you can dismiss them. What you just did above is a good example of that. Maybe it's unconscious, I dunno.
These are all gems from Les in TO, you know the objective one:
Quote:
whereas elite quarterbacks like peyton brady and luck can overcome talent deficinecies surrounding them with their smarts, leadership and athleticism respectively, eli needs a solid running game and pass protection to be at his best.
So lets break down this gem. You see all that talent deficiency brady and Peyton had: You know the Wayne, Harrions, Edge James, Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Emmanuel Sanders, Dallas Clark, Julius Thomas, Wes Wlker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Randy Moss, edelman. How these two ever overcome this talent? And as far as their OLines. I guess guys like Jeff Saturday, Logan Mankins among many other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
And we all know that Eli needs a solid running game and defense to win it all. The 32nd ranked run game and the 26th ranked defense carried him in 2011.
Lets continue...
Quote:
and if asante samuel holds on to the INT in Super Bowl 42 and kevin williams gets out of the way of the weatherford punt, Eli has Zero Super Bowls.
Seems your are disappointed that the Giants won. Pathetic.
Going on...
Quote:
but he has his limitations athletically
Yes this is a reason to get rid of him. Because you know guys like Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford are so fleet a foot.
Quote:
some of the drops were his receiver's fault, but he gets some of the blame too.
There you go people, even if he puts right into the WRs hands, Eli is too blame as well.
Quote:
if eli has inexperienced guys around him it's on him as the leader of the offense to put in the extra time to make sure they are all aligned and to put in the extra time with someone else to be that safety blanket.
You hear that guys. If a guy like Preston Parker is playing, Eli needs to put more time in the film room so he can be a pro bowler. Forget he has taken UDFA and made them look good. And took a guy who barely practiced last year in the preseason, missed 4 games, and somehow the two formed a great combo that the league couldnt stop. Damn you Eli!!!!!
Quote:
he also cannot escape pressure or create plays with his legs, which is an underappreciated skill set from giants fans as we haven't had a mobile QB since hostettler.
Its amazing that even analyst said one of Eli's strength is his mobility in the pocket. And I think we have see nEli escape some plays here and there, but not Les. He likes a guy like RGIII. Lets run around and get knocked out!
Quote:
A great QB can cover up deficiencies in line or skill position talent so yeah his lack of playoff appearances is partially on him
Name ONE QB who won consistently and got into the playoffs with no talent around him.
Quote:
We need to completely tear down and rebuild this team including the QB position.
Yep, you are an objective fan. Get rid of eli!!! NOW!!!!!
Quote:
We need to rebuild; new coach new system a QB that can keep defended honest with an occasional run
Yep, McAdoo was a complete failure last year. And we need a running QB!!!!!! YES!!!!
Quote:
average in others (seattle, atlanta, houston and indy)
This was a remark about how he played against teeams. In those 4 teams where he played average, Eli threw 7 TDs and 1 INT and we won 2 of those games. I think his completion perentage was rather high too. But he's objective. He said so himself.
Jesus Christ.
Dep, you're the one being the dick here. You're the one trying to expose Les and your method isn't reflecting well on you. Like KWall said in some other argument that digressed similarly, clean up your act.
and questioning my reading comprehension, my defensiveness for Eli, or just flat out name calling, I am going to respond. I am not trying to expose him, I did expose him for his lies and moronic comments. He has made up statements that at least 3 or 4 other posters on this thread have proven him wrong too (not just me, but many others) and he keeps coming at us calling us Eli-homers and that he is objective and we arent. Thats a BS move, and one I had no problem proving wrong.
Does it make me right? Not really, but thats the thing I dont care. Everything I posted was what HE said. If you want to defend him for his remarks (Saint Eli defenders, calling all of us blind homers, and questioning or knowledge as a whole) thats your choice. So if you are going to come at me and not him, well that shows me something too.
All I did was post all the things he has said that were flat out lies, ridiculous statements, and comments he denied making earlier in the thread.
So be that as it may, I exposed him of being anti-Eli guy. And thats fine if he actually admitted it. So the best course is to let this thread die. The initial premesis was proven false anyways.
These are all gems from Les in TO, you know the objective one:
Quote:
whereas elite quarterbacks like peyton brady and luck can overcome talent deficinecies surrounding them with their smarts, leadership and athleticism respectively, eli needs a solid running game and pass protection to be at his best.
So lets break down this gem. You see all that talent deficiency brady and Peyton had: You know the Wayne, Harrions, Edge James, Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Emmanuel Sanders, Dallas Clark, Julius Thomas, Wes Wlker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Randy Moss, edelman. How these two ever overcome this talent? And as far as their OLines. I guess guys like Jeff Saturday, Logan Mankins among many other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
And we all know that Eli needs a solid running game and defense to win it all. The 32nd ranked run game and the 26th ranked defense carried him in 2011.
Lets continue...
Quote:
and if asante samuel holds on to the INT in Super Bowl 42 and kevin williams gets out of the way of the weatherford punt, Eli has Zero Super Bowls.
Seems your are disappointed that the Giants won. Pathetic.
Going on...
Quote:
but he has his limitations athletically
Yes this is a reason to get rid of him. Because you know guys like Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford are so fleet a foot.
Quote:
some of the drops were his receiver's fault, but he gets some of the blame too.
There you go people, even if he puts right into the WRs hands, Eli is too blame as well.
Quote:
if eli has inexperienced guys around him it's on him as the leader of the offense to put in the extra time to make sure they are all aligned and to put in the extra time with someone else to be that safety blanket.
You hear that guys. If a guy like Preston Parker is playing, Eli needs to put more time in the film room so he can be a pro bowler. Forget he has taken UDFA and made them look good. And took a guy who barely practiced last year in the preseason, missed 4 games, and somehow the two formed a great combo that the league couldnt stop. Damn you Eli!!!!!
Quote:
he also cannot escape pressure or create plays with his legs, which is an underappreciated skill set from giants fans as we haven't had a mobile QB since hostettler.
Its amazing that even analyst said one of Eli's strength is his mobility in the pocket. And I think we have see nEli escape some plays here and there, but not Les. He likes a guy like RGIII. Lets run around and get knocked out!
Quote:
A great QB can cover up deficiencies in line or skill position talent so yeah his lack of playoff appearances is partially on him
Name ONE QB who won consistently and got into the playoffs with no talent around him.
Quote:
We need to completely tear down and rebuild this team including the QB position.
Yep, you are an objective fan. Get rid of eli!!! NOW!!!!!
Quote:
We need to rebuild; new coach new system a QB that can keep defended honest with an occasional run
Yep, McAdoo was a complete failure last year. And we need a running QB!!!!!! YES!!!!
Quote:
average in others (seattle, atlanta, houston and indy)
This was a remark about how he played against teeams. In those 4 teams where he played average, Eli threw 7 TDs and 1 INT and we won 2 of those games. I think his completion perentage was rather high too. But he's objective. He said so himself.
Jesus Christ.
Dep, you're the one being the dick here. You're the one trying to expose Les and your method isn't reflecting well on you. Like KWall said in some other argument that digressed similarly, clean up your act.
You have to at least entertain the idea that you're so ingrained a particular position that it leads you to assign positions or arguments to others, so you can dismiss them. What you just did above is a good example of that. Maybe it's unconscious, I dunno.
And what is my position? That I think Eli should get paid more than Joe Flacco but not as much as guys like rodgers, Brady, or Luck (which I said earlier in the thread?)
And again, sorry I defend Eli here more than others. I shouldnt make such outlandish statements next time.
These are all gems from Les in TO, you know the objective one:
Quote:
whereas elite quarterbacks like peyton brady and luck can overcome talent deficinecies surrounding them with their smarts, leadership and athleticism respectively, eli needs a solid running game and pass protection to be at his best.
So lets break down this gem. You see all that talent deficiency brady and Peyton had: You know the Wayne, Harrions, Edge James, Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Emmanuel Sanders, Dallas Clark, Julius Thomas, Wes Wlker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Randy Moss, edelman. How these two ever overcome this talent? And as far as their OLines. I guess guys like Jeff Saturday, Logan Mankins among many other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
And we all know that Eli needs a solid running game and defense to win it all. The 32nd ranked run game and the 26th ranked defense carried him in 2011.
Lets continue...
Quote:
and if asante samuel holds on to the INT in Super Bowl 42 and kevin williams gets out of the way of the weatherford punt, Eli has Zero Super Bowls.
Seems your are disappointed that the Giants won. Pathetic.
Going on...
Quote:
but he has his limitations athletically
Yes this is a reason to get rid of him. Because you know guys like Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford are so fleet a foot.
Quote:
some of the drops were his receiver's fault, but he gets some of the blame too.
There you go people, even if he puts right into the WRs hands, Eli is too blame as well.
Quote:
if eli has inexperienced guys around him it's on him as the leader of the offense to put in the extra time to make sure they are all aligned and to put in the extra time with someone else to be that safety blanket.
You hear that guys. If a guy like Preston Parker is playing, Eli needs to put more time in the film room so he can be a pro bowler. Forget he has taken UDFA and made them look good. And took a guy who barely practiced last year in the preseason, missed 4 games, and somehow the two formed a great combo that the league couldnt stop. Damn you Eli!!!!!
Quote:
he also cannot escape pressure or create plays with his legs, which is an underappreciated skill set from giants fans as we haven't had a mobile QB since hostettler.
Its amazing that even analyst said one of Eli's strength is his mobility in the pocket. And I think we have see nEli escape some plays here and there, but not Les. He likes a guy like RGIII. Lets run around and get knocked out!
Quote:
A great QB can cover up deficiencies in line or skill position talent so yeah his lack of playoff appearances is partially on him
Name ONE QB who won consistently and got into the playoffs with no talent around him.
Quote:
We need to completely tear down and rebuild this team including the QB position.
Yep, you are an objective fan. Get rid of eli!!! NOW!!!!!
Quote:
We need to rebuild; new coach new system a QB that can keep defended honest with an occasional run
Yep, McAdoo was a complete failure last year. And we need a running QB!!!!!! YES!!!!
Quote:
average in others (seattle, atlanta, houston and indy)
This was a remark about how he played against teeams. In those 4 teams where he played average, Eli threw 7 TDs and 1 INT and we won 2 of those games. I think his completion perentage was rather high too. But he's objective. He said so himself.
Jesus Christ.
Dep, you're the one being the dick here. You're the one trying to expose Les and your method isn't reflecting well on you. Like KWall said in some other argument that digressed similarly, clean up your act.
These are all gems from Les in TO, you know the objective one:
Quote:
whereas elite quarterbacks like peyton brady and luck can overcome talent deficinecies surrounding them with their smarts, leadership and athleticism respectively, eli needs a solid running game and pass protection to be at his best.
So lets break down this gem. You see all that talent deficiency brady and Peyton had: You know the Wayne, Harrions, Edge James, Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Emmanuel Sanders, Dallas Clark, Julius Thomas, Wes Wlker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Randy Moss, edelman. How these two ever overcome this talent? And as far as their OLines. I guess guys like Jeff Saturday, Logan Mankins among many other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
And we all know that Eli needs a solid running game and defense to win it all. The 32nd ranked run game and the 26th ranked defense carried him in 2011.
Lets continue...
Quote:
and if asante samuel holds on to the INT in Super Bowl 42 and kevin williams gets out of the way of the weatherford punt, Eli has Zero Super Bowls.
Seems your are disappointed that the Giants won. Pathetic.
Going on...
Quote:
but he has his limitations athletically
Yes this is a reason to get rid of him. Because you know guys like Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford are so fleet a foot.
Quote:
some of the drops were his receiver's fault, but he gets some of the blame too.
There you go people, even if he puts right into the WRs hands, Eli is too blame as well.
Quote:
if eli has inexperienced guys around him it's on him as the leader of the offense to put in the extra time to make sure they are all aligned and to put in the extra time with someone else to be that safety blanket.
You hear that guys. If a guy like Preston Parker is playing, Eli needs to put more time in the film room so he can be a pro bowler. Forget he has taken UDFA and made them look good. And took a guy who barely practiced last year in the preseason, missed 4 games, and somehow the two formed a great combo that the league couldnt stop. Damn you Eli!!!!!
Quote:
he also cannot escape pressure or create plays with his legs, which is an underappreciated skill set from giants fans as we haven't had a mobile QB since hostettler.
Its amazing that even analyst said one of Eli's strength is his mobility in the pocket. And I think we have see nEli escape some plays here and there, but not Les. He likes a guy like RGIII. Lets run around and get knocked out!
Quote:
A great QB can cover up deficiencies in line or skill position talent so yeah his lack of playoff appearances is partially on him
Name ONE QB who won consistently and got into the playoffs with no talent around him.
Quote:
We need to completely tear down and rebuild this team including the QB position.
Yep, you are an objective fan. Get rid of eli!!! NOW!!!!!
Quote:
We need to rebuild; new coach new system a QB that can keep defended honest with an occasional run
Yep, McAdoo was a complete failure last year. And we need a running QB!!!!!! YES!!!!
Quote:
average in others (seattle, atlanta, houston and indy)
This was a remark about how he played against teeams. In those 4 teams where he played average, Eli threw 7 TDs and 1 INT and we won 2 of those games. I think his completion perentage was rather high too. But he's objective. He said so himself.
Jesus Christ.
Dep, you're the one being the dick here. You're the one trying to expose Les and your method isn't reflecting well on you. Like KWall said in some other argument that digressed similarly, clean up your act.
Just wanted to continue the quote train.
Your contributions are always appreciated.
Thanks!
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Flacco was the reason they won the SB Â
Well how many of Eli's playoff wins were on the road? How many of them were we the underdogs?
I'm willing to beat there were quite a few in comparison, would you not agree?
I don't really honestly know -- I'm sure the Ravens had a few more road playoff games, and they probably were considered underdogs in some, but looking back through Vegas archives isn't appealing. But what would be the point? Have we decided that road playoff victories are a demonstrably better barometer of a QB's worth than things like putting together a few 12+ win seasons?
It just seems like we're scrambling to come up with measures that place Eli ahead of a guy like Flacco. When you do that, the measures themselves tend to be flawed.
Are you seriously implying that winning a playoff game on the road is not harder then winning them at home? You don't think there is an advantage having a home playoff?
I'm just implying that doing well enough in the regular season to position your team to host some playoff games shouldn't be dismissed. Maybe you'd try to argue it wasn't all Flacco, maybe you'd try to argue it was in spite of Flacco, but the Ravens have been a better regular season team than us. As a consequence, Flacco doesn't have as many opportunities to play road playoff games, but he has played and won some.
This is all getting a bit off point, which is ultimately just this: it's not some egregious insult to Eli to say that Flacco should or will be paid more.
and questioning my reading comprehension, my defensiveness for Eli, or just flat out name calling, I am going to respond.
Dude...
You started it, and you should be able to see that, unless Les' first post saying Eli doesn't deserve more than a bunch of QB's can be constituted as "flying insults at you." And given how defensive you get on the subject, maybe you *do* see that as a personal insult.
paid QB is often the next one up. If Eli is the highest paid QB this year, he likely won't be next year. And that guy won't be the following year. It's not usually about who is the best player, it's about who's contract is the most recent.
Hate this kind of nonsense.
Also keep in mind that negotiations are about taking positions, then compromising. If I were Eli's agent, that's the position I'd take, too.
Ben 64 Mil Guaranteed
Eli will be in the same ballpark.
And the Giants will pay it.
Period.
I swear. As a Giants fan worried about top 100 problems facing the Giants including inexperience in the Defensive Backfield, a patchwork OL, and leading the league in injuries Eli's contract is like problem 573.
I was waiting for someone to say that. If you have to bet, much more likely the Giants pushed that out there than Eli saying it, he never would.
...even the very best of Eli could not lead this team back into the playoffs and -- if we could get several high picks for him -- we trade him and start all over again with a very favorable cap situation and lots of premium draft picks.
Just a thought for a team that is seriously in need of a talent infusion at many positions.
Exactly.
...even the very best of Eli could not lead this team back into the playoffs and -- if we could get several high picks for him -- we trade him and start all over again with a very favorable cap situation and lots of premium draft picks.
Just a thought for a team that is seriously in need of a talent infusion at many positions.
It makes for good banter, but I don't see the franchise ending the relationship that way. He's going to retire with this team.
Clever headline, but I seriously doubt Eli walked into someone and said I'm not signing if I make less than Rodgers.
is it an agent's job to set up their client for ridicule by the talking heads and media? doesn't sound like something Eli would want Condon floating in the media.
That said, Rivers and Rapist are due for deals too. Eli set the market last time. Now it's his turn.
They have all the leverage and it's just business. Either way, the Giants will make Eli whole and he's not going anywhere.
And of course Eli wants to be the highest paid QB. Who wouldn't?
The difference that most of the mouthbreathing public and non-Giants fans don't get is that Eli would never say he needs to be the highest paid QB. But this will be blown up as usual.
Fuck Rappaport. But he just NEEDS his Twitter followers. That's where we are now folks. Sad.
Also keep in mind that negotiations are about taking positions, then compromising. If I were Eli's agent, that's the position I'd take, too.
a shaky defense? did you watch the Super Bowls?
So if Tom Condon wants Eli to be the highest paid QB in the game, let Eli have an MVP season leading the Giants to another Super Bowl. If I'm the Giants I'm okay with Eli earning his next contract based on what he accomplishes in 2015 rather than basing it on what he's accomplished from 2004-2014.
There is no hurry. Eli isn't going anywhere.
It wouldn't be for any one position. It shouldn't here. The first one he didn't even have a strong game and they won by shutting down the greatest offense in NFL history. You don't pay the QB more because of that game 8 years ago.
The player he is now and going forward shouldn't be asking to be the top paid player at his position. If he is, the Giants shouldn't give it to him.
Beckham has the Randy Moss impact and can make any QB very good. If Eli wants top dollar let him walk and use the money on other players.
It wouldn't be for any one position. It shouldn't here. The first one he didn't even have a strong game and they won by shutting down the greatest offense in NFL history. You don't pay the QB more because of that game 8 years ago.
The player he is now and going forward shouldn't be asking to be the top paid player at his position. If he is, the Giants shouldn't give it to him.
Beckham has the Randy Moss impact and can make any QB very good. If Eli wants top dollar let him walk and use the money on other players.
You only take that position when you can walk him out the front door and sneak Andrew Luck in the back door.
QBs get paid. This is the reality of the league. Especially accomplished ones, it's not the same as other positions.
And just because condon wants him to be, it doesnt mean he will be. You ask for as much as possible, they counteroffer, you agree somewhere in the middle.
He should get a very good deal but not close to top dollar.
He should get a very good deal but not close to top dollar.
How does one measure enormous? You dont think he should get more than Cam, Ryan, Wilson, Tannehill, Romo, Rivers, and all of those top QBs?
And outside Brady, Rodgers, and Luck - Eli is just as good as any of those who are there. Dont see thius "gap" you are making up.
He can play at a high level still for a number of years, he is in the wheelhouse of his prime.
You must first PROTECT him, then pay him. Pretty simple.
In a league where the difference between good and bad teams is next to nothing, being a proven difference maker in those big moments has value.
After Eli I would go cheap at the position. But only after.
Should he get more than Brady and Rodgers? No, of course not. No one is arguing that. However here are the QBs who are listed after Rodgers.
Wilson, Rivers, Ben, Newton, Ryan, Flacco, Tannenhill. He will absolutely get paid as much as Rivers and Ben and deservedly so.
He will never make as much as Muck, as he will sign next offseason for an NFL record, and becomes the highest paid player in the NFL. The only reason why players are as close to rodgers as they are as many of them jsut recently signed their deals in retrospect to what he makes. Remember Rodgers signed his deal in 2013 and is STILL the highest paid QB which is really, really surprising and shows how good he really is.
Its the same story every time one of these qbs signs a big deal.. Their contracts look much higher than others who signed previously, but its all about when you sign. Luck's contract is going to BLOW away Rodgers.... but that doesnt mean he blows away Rodgers as a Qb either.
Eli couldn't give a shit about being paid more than all of the other NFL quarterbacks. That's not him. Doesn't mean he doesn't want to get paid, but he wouldn't put that kind of stipulation in his instructions to his agent.
Eli couldn't give a shit about being paid more than all of the other NFL quarterbacks. That's not him. Doesn't mean he doesn't want to get paid, but he wouldn't put that kind of stipulation in his instructions to his agent.
Bingo.
So if Tom Condon wants Eli to be the highest paid QB in the game, let Eli have an MVP season leading the Giants to another Super Bowl. If I'm the Giants I'm okay with Eli earning his next contract based on what he accomplishes in 2015 rather than basing it on what he's accomplished from 2004-2014.
There is no hurry. Eli isn't going anywhere.
Agree with this.
This season too important, too potentially transitional to make long term commitment to 34 year old QB.
A terrible year and subsequent rebuild with a new staff is not a good scenario for either the 35 year old QB or the new coaches.
Really, really would be tragic to see Eli/Coughlin era end in those kind of flames.
Time to win now and then Eli gets his biggest-ever contract. Coughlin retires. McAdoo ascends.
eh, Punnish Eli?
You think Eli and Condon are going to risk losing 75 million dollars behind that shitshow that Reese has trotted out there this year?
No way.
You think Eli and Condon are going to risk losing 75 million dollars behind that shitshow that Reese has trotted out there this year?
No way.
Well, I guess as a Giants fan I appreciate this sentimate, but not really. From my point of view he is under contract (a contract that made him the league's highest paid player at the time).
His life is own to manage. His $17mm salary, numerous multi-million dollar endorsement deals, fame and family connections is protection enough.
If the Giants keep it up, I wouldn't blame Eli for not stepping on the field week 1.
Then he'd have the Giants over a barrel.
His life is own to manage. His $17mm salary, numerous multi-million dollar endorsement deals, fame and family connections is protection enough.
Under contract? Because NFL teams always honor their "contracts".
As for the second part, this is a business, and Eli is a business man.
If you're advice is to risk 75 million dollars, I'd NEVER hire you to manage my money.
The comment above about how Eli may recieve the highest contract until the next franchise QB recieves theirs is accurate.
That said how is Eli not close to Rodgers? Eli's resume stands second to no one. Eli is also the only QB to actually carry his team to a title with the passing game (2011). Set the record for passing yards in the playoffs that year and brought home the Lombardi. Went through the great Rodgers and the Pack like shit through a goose to win it that year as well. Tap me on the shoulder when Rodgers has a conference title game performance like Eli has had in '07 or' 11, not even to mention two super bowl winning TD drives.
I also agree that Eli and his agent would be taking a risk to trot out this year without a long term deal seeing how the front office seems unable to provide a competent line.
I hope a deal gets done.
In any event Giants own his rights for 2016. They could franchise tag him.
At 34 years old you think Eli would give up to years of his career?
This is much ado about nothing, because this deal will get done before the season starts, book it.
That said, I do find the lack of respect Eli gets, even the proposition that he should play out the final year of his contract without an extension, from Giants fans to be pretty damn sad.
It wouldn't be for any one position. It shouldn't here. The first one he didn't even have a strong game and they won by shutting down the greatest offense in NFL history. You don't pay the QB more because of that game 8 years ago.
The player he is now and going forward shouldn't be asking to be the top paid player at his position. If he is, the Giants shouldn't give it to him.
Beckham has the Randy Moss impact and can make any QB very good. If Eli wants top dollar let him walk and use the money on other players.
Eli did not have a strong game in the first SB? Only QB to ever lead a TD drive in a Super Bowl when only a TD could win it. Basically the most clutch QB performance of all time, this against "The greatest team of all time". That was also his second TD drive of the quarter. If that is not a strong game we have very different opinions on what a QB's job is. Again let me know when the defied Rodgers has a career accomplishment equal to this.
I do agree that a game eight years ago in amd of itself should have little bearing on negotiations today. But, it is not as if Eli was crap from then to now. He delivered another title and is clearly a franchise QB. I also think he could play until forty, what would diminish, his footspeed?
This is much ado about nothing, because this deal will get done before the season starts, book it.
That said, I do find the lack of respect Eli gets, even the proposition that he should play out the final year of his contract without an extension, from Giants fans to be pretty damn sad.
Britt. if you re-read my original post, I think you'll see that I was saying that, from both the franchise's point of view AND FROM ELI'S, in the event of a catastrophic year it might be better if Eli moved on.
Neither I nor Milton dissed him as a player or his place in NYG history.
Despite what I think you may be right. He could be signed before the season. I think he likes QBing this team. Hopefully if he does sign a new deal it will be the best thing for him from a football standpoint.
This is much ado about nothing, because this deal will get done before the season starts, book it.
That said, I do find the lack of respect Eli gets, even the proposition that he should play out the final year of his contract without an extension, from Giants fans to be pretty damn sad.
And if Eli were to elect to sit two years, he wouldn't be paid. Giants would re-coup salary cap money like with Pierre-Paul.
Eli is under contract is my point and not in a position to pull a power-play that might not be in his best football interests anyway. Given the hypothetical prposed in the previous sentence is impossible given Eli's disposition/character.
Honest question.
Last one I can think of was Drew Brees, and we saw how that season ended for him. Now luckily for him, it wasn't a career threatening injury like initially thought. Luckily (or unluckily depending on how you view it) for the Chargers, they had drafted Brees' replacement with the number one overall pick (basically) two years prior. We don't have a number one overall pick waiting in the wings.
If the Giants keep it up, I wouldn't blame Eli for not stepping on the field week 1.
Then he'd have the Giants over a barrel.
$17 million reasons and it is not what Eli does. $1.1 million per game...............
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that you would be willing to play this year without an extension?
If the Giants keep it up, I wouldn't blame Eli for not stepping on the field week 1.
Then he'd have the Giants over a barrel.
$17 million reasons and it is not what Eli does. $1.1 million per game...............
Same question I posted above your post.
Show me a precedent. Give an example.
You think Eli and Condon are going to risk losing 75 million dollars behind that shitshow that Reese has trotted out there this year?
No way.
He's made quite a lot of money already - he could retire after an injury and live on a bit more than rice and beans....
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You do not let him go into his year unprotected.
You think Eli and Condon are going to risk losing 75 million dollars behind that shitshow that Reese has trotted out there this year?
No way.
He's made quite a lot of money already - he could retire after an injury and live on a bit more than rice and beans....
See, this is what's wrong with this whole conversation.
That's not how business works, people. And don't get it twisted, this is a multi BILLION dollar business.
Sure you would.
Eli will get his before the start of the season. Book it.
I'm surprised the deal hasn't already been done, but I'm sure it will be prior to the season starting.
Stop saying SBs and SB MVP shouldn't count. Of course they count. Both SBs were won first and foremost because of Eli. Yes other players made a big impact but none more than Eli (thus the MVPs). Yes SB MVPs typically go to the QB (just over 50%) but Eli has won 2 for 2 (100%). Russel Wilson 0 for 2. Big Ben 0 for 3, Brady 3 for 6, Peyton 1 for 1, Rogers 1 for 1, Brees 1 for 1, etc. I give the nod to Brady for also going 2 for 2 before his 3rd appearance.
Yes Brady should be the highest paid QB in the league but he intentionally sacrificed that right. Hell he's married to the highest paid supermodel in the owrld and she makes more than he does (even though she's semi-retired).
I've said this before in another thread about Eli. Why do people think you can just blow up a team and get a new QB so easily. The last franchise QB we had was Simms and Eli is better than Simms was. Hell Eli is the best QB the Giants have ever had. No disrepsect to Simms, Tarkenton, or Tittle but Eli has proven to be the best.
It's true people don't know what they have till it's gone. Pay the man his money!
The only thing that sticks in my mind is, suppose the team goes 2-14 this year and really stinks it up. If what Mara said is true, the coaching staff will be fired and we will go into a full rebuilding mode.
Do we want to pay Eli to lead the rebuild at 34 years old?
The only thing that sticks in my mind is, suppose the team goes 2-14 this year and really stinks it up. If what Mara said is true, the coaching staff will be fired and we will go into a full rebuilding mode.
Do we want to pay Eli to lead the rebuild at 34 years old?
If this team goes 2-14, there are a lot more issues than the quarterback. And yes, you would rebuild around a franchise 34 year old quarterback. Fill in all the other pieces, while at the same time looking for the next QB.
Eli will get what is fair compared to what his peers are making. If it makes him the highest paid QB for several months, so be it. IMHO, he's proven his worth 10-fold.
The only thing that sticks in my mind is, suppose the team goes 2-14 this year and really stinks it up. If what Mara said is true, the coaching staff will be fired and we will go into a full rebuilding mode.
Do we want to pay Eli to lead the rebuild at 34 years old?
This is kind of what happens at the back end of a franchise QB's career. If you don't want him to play for another team (they don't) then you kind of operate on his schedule. He thinks he's got years left. He's producing like he's got years left. They want him here. They're obligated to put a team around him until he hangs it up or asks out.
the giants should not pay him more than brady, peyton, Rodgers, brees, or flacco. he should be in the same ballpark as what Russell Wilson received, with a shorter term given eli's age. the giants should slot him in at the start of the negotiations as somewhere around the 8th-10th best paid QBs.
Eli has won 2 super bowls and has shown he can deliver in high pressure situations. that said, even with the talent deficiencies, coaching changes etc. he has not been consistent game in game out. the giants have missed the playoffs three years in a row and 5/6 years. In the ten years that Eli has been the starting QB from start of the year to finish, the Gmen have only made it out of the first round of the playoffs twice. 80% of the years he has been the starting QB, the giants have missed the playoffs or have been eliminated in the first round. Contrast that with the above mentioned QBs who all have higher rates of getting to the playoffs year in year out (sometimes with shaky offensive lines, running games, coaching and defenses) and advancing in the playoffs.
Giants will and should pay Eli at least what Russell and Roth get. As to Rogers he will leap frog them all with next contract.
You don't pay the QB more because of that game 8 years ago.
Beckham has the Randy Moss impact and can make any QB very good. If Eli wants top dollar let him walk and use the money on other players.
Eli is really good QB yet he is 34 yrs old. Even the Giants have mentioned "he's no kid". Coming off of multiple unsuccessful years, an aging QB and an older coach put the Giants at a crossroads IMO. I can't see the Giants not extending Eli yet i can buy the thought hesitation as the record is what it is regardless of whose fault it might be.
A few short time ago I wondered how could the Giants find a QB if they needed one as it appeared so many teams would need a QB. I figured Brady, Peyton & Brees would retire and the crop of Ben, Rivers and Eli might be either moved or retire by this time. All those players are still in the league, meanwhile teams which were looking for QB's have either found them or drafted a QB it's too early to give up on. The Vikings, Jags, Bucs, Titans & Raiders all filled the vacancy while the Rams extended Foles for two years. Will Manziel work out in Cleveland? Miami, SF & Seattle recently tied up their young QB.
So the list appears of teams looking for a QB has shortened dramatically over a short time. Jets, Bills, Texans, Redskins and Chiefs might be the only teams interested in QB while the Cards & Rams signed their veteran QB's for only a few years.
If the Giants flop to approx 6-7 wins i wonder if they would make a play for a Heckenberg (assuming he plays better) being the competition of teams likely looking for a QB next year appears fewer than usual with that number likely increasing dramatically within a few years.
You never know
This place f'n blows.
Chargers fans might have something to say about that.
Nevertheless, hopefully its just an opening salvo of negations.
"I think we'll get it done at some point in time," Giants owner John Mara said Thursday. "We're just going through the usual things that you go through. The agent asks for the moon, we make a reasonable offer, at some point he'll come to his senses and we'll have an agreement. There's nothing unusual about any of this."
I'm sticking with that.
I'm surprised the deal hasn't already been done, but I'm sure it will be prior to the season starting.
Brett, I agree with you.
In a league where its teams finds every way to get EVERY LAST DOLLAR from any and all revenue sources they can drain money from (and they do it), if a player wants to do the same, he is looked at negatively because the fans feel he impacts the teams "ability to win" because of the salary cap implications.
So you get to make a truckload of money and still position the players as selfish. What a great way of having it.
Eli couldn't give a shit about being paid more than all of the other NFL quarterbacks. That's not him. Doesn't mean he doesn't want to get paid, but he wouldn't put that kind of stipulation in his instructions to his agent.
Are you friends with Eli?
This place f'n blows.
Nobody said that but carry on.
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when you say Eli doesnt deserve to get paid as much as Joe f'n Flacco.
This place f'n blows.
Nobody said that but carry on.
Chargers fans might have something to say about that.
Nevertheless, hopefully its just an opening salvo of negations.
I agree with you to an extent. Though I don't believe that trying to get paid the highest possible salary is in any way selfish. It's the business side of things. Not selfish at all, IMO. These players should try to get the most money they can. If they are worth it, teams will give it to them.
I could easily see Eli saying he wants to make a certain amount of money. But I find it hard to believe that he cares about the "status" of being the highest paid QB in the NFL. Had the article said "Eli wants $110 million extension" I would believe it. I take issue with the idea that he has this need for the status of being the highest paid NFL QB which is implied in the wording, though I could be completely wrong.
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when you say Eli doesnt deserve to get paid as much as Joe f'n Flacco.
This place f'n blows.
Nobody said that but carry on.
Um, yes they did. Carry on being the biggest shitstain on the board. Here's a thought before replying to a single poster, go and reply to Bill2 first. The place was better when you went into hiding from the beat down he gave you.
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Sports leagues have done a tremendous job of spinning players into the greedy ones when they look to make market value - there are always silly comments about how they make enough, etc.
I'm surprised the deal hasn't already been done, but I'm sure it will be prior to the season starting.
Brett, I agree with you.
In a league where its teams finds every way to get EVERY LAST DOLLAR from any and all revenue sources they can drain money from (and they do it), if a player wants to do the same, he is looked at negatively because the fans feel he impacts the teams "ability to win" because of the salary cap implications.
So you get to make a truckload of money and still position the players as selfish. What a great way of having it.
I think of Terrell Thomas who was apparently close to signing an extension before his pre-season injury in 2011. Guys should always try to maximize their value in this league, regardless of what they've made historically. I think fans often get a bit silly - don't get me wrong, I'd love for Eli to take a contract at $1M a year, but I'm not going to be mad at him if the Giants overpay him (theoretically).
I understand the cascading feedback loop of QB contracts and why Eli will probably get this, but lets be real - he is not worth this money. He's great and I'm one of his biggest supporters, but he should not be getting paid more than Luck or Rodgers (based on value alone).
His co-host said, "Not with two Super Bowl MVPs ... you have to factor that in, to be fair."
North responded that Eli got lucky ... and "was in the right place at the right time."
Oy.
His co-host said, "Not with two Super Bowl MVPs ... you have to factor that in, to be fair."
North responded that Eli got lucky ... and "was in the right place at the right time."
Oy.
Yeah, but this is so comically idiotic that it's not worth listening to.
15 QBs? what a joke. He's gonna start getting into people like Derrick fucking Carr or Carson Palmer at that point.
lol. I didnt know Flacco was responsible for every single one of their wins. Oh wait, your the poster who said wins are the basis of valuing QBs.
Eli is not week in week out an elite QB - some weeks he's on fire if everything is working, other weeks he looks awful. He is not going to make plays happen with his legs unless the field is wide open and he doesn't have the same escapability that he did earlier in his career.
Let's have a look at where he ranks among active QBs in win/loss records courtesy of the football database compared to others who have at least 20 starts under their belt since at the end of the day, winning is what counts the most (in this metric, he is above average):
All GamesRegular SeasonPostseason
Player GS W L T Pct
Tom Brady 226 173 53 0 0.765
Russell Wilson 45 33 12 0 0.733
Peyton Manning 271 184 87 0 0.679
Colin Kaepernick 37 25 12 0 0.676
Ben Roethlisberger 165 111 54 0 0.673
Andrew Luck 44 29 15 0 0.659
Aaron Rodgers 104 68 36 0 0.654
Joe Flacco 118 76 42 0 0.644
Vince Young 51 31 20 0 0.608
Philip Rivers 146 88 58 0 0.603
Nick Foles 25 15 10 0 0.600
Andy Dalton 58 34 23 1 0.595
Drew Brees 205 121 84 0 0.590
Matt Ryan 107 63 44 0 0.589
Tony Romo 120 70 50 0 0.583
Eli Manning 171 97 74 0 0.567
Alex Smith 101 55 45 1 0.550
Mark Sanchez 68 37 31 0 0.544
Michael Vick 113 60 52 1 0.535
Rex Grossman 51 27 24 0 0.529
Jay Cutler 114 60 54 0 0.526
Matt Hasselbeck 163 85 78 0 0.521
Matt Moore 25 13 12 0 0.520
Kyle Orton 74 38 36 0 0.514
Matt Schaub 92 47 45 0 0.511
Ryan Tannehill 40 20 20 0 0.500
Tarvaris Jackson 35 17 18 0 0.486
Cam Newton 57 27 29 1 0.482
Shaun Hill 27 13 14 0 0.481
Carson Palmer 144 69 75 0 0.479
Matt Cassel 72 33 39 0 0.458
Derek Anderson 44 19 25 0 0.432
Matthew Stafford 70 30 40 0 0.429
Robert Griffin III 32 13 19 0 0.406
Jason Campbell 79 32 47 0 0.405
Christian Ponder 36 14 21 1 0.403
Josh Freeman 60 24 36 0 0.400
Josh McCown 41 16 25 0 0.390
Sam Bradford 49 18 30 1 0.378
Ryan Fitzpatrick 86 31 54 1 0.366
Chad Henne 53 18 35 0 0.340
Colt McCoy 22 7 15 0 0.318
Blaine Gabbert 27 5 22 0 0.185
Followed by....
there are some anomalies to be sure - vince young had the benefit of some strong titans teams and carson palmer was on some brutal bengals teams.
but in the big picture is eli really that great or are some people looking at things through rose colored glasses?
Move along people. I forgot what I was dealing with last year. This is the same poster who thought Eli should have been cut at the end of last year.
Glad somebody else realizes that.
Oh you mean the same running game that was last in the NFL in 2011? you mean the same season where without Eli the Giants would of had 4 wins...you mean the same season with all of the 4th quarter comebacks??
Baltimore run game compared to NYG.
2014:
8th vs. 23rd
2013
29th vs. 30th
2012
11th vs. 14
2011
10th vs 32nd. Yes the Giants were dead last when they won the SB
2010
14th vs. 6th - the last time the NYG were better in the ground game.
2009
5th vs. 17th
2008
4th vs. 1st
So for 5 out of his 7 years, Baltimore had a top 10 running game. only 2 years did Eli have a better ground game. Flacco never ONCE threw for 4,000 yards or 30 TDs in a season. But lets not get facts in the way of yet another unsupported rant.
6,12,12,3,3,3,3. Average 7.0
Flacco's Baltimore teams rushing yards rankings since 2008...
8,30,11,10,14,5,4. Average 11.71 (Guess which year they missed the playoffs?)
Much, much better than Eli's NYG teams have managed. Which, btw, is 18.43 and 17.43.
Bottom line, put Flacco on Eli's teams and vice versa and you'd have the same result in making the playoffs and not. Oh, except NYG wouldn't have won SB 46.
He beat a Bill Belichek and Tom brady led team TWICE one was an undefeated team that was said to be unbeatable, and drove down the field TWICE in the last 2 minutes to win the game...
He went into San Francisco and got absolutely crushed and still got up and led that team to the superbowl, there is a point in the game where his helmet is sideways and he is still get players lined up for the next play...
he went into Dallas against a team that beat them twice in the regular season and led them down on a clutch drive to end the half with a minute left for a TD and without that they lose that game...
Give me a fucking break with this ELi was carried by his defense and running game...
Over the same period, the Giants were ranked 5,30,17,25,12,18,22.
Not really close.
5 years, 87 mil, 65 guaranteed.
Give Eli same guaranteed cash, 5 years 87.1 million and its done.
Hell, Eric Flower's dad would have closed this deal already.
Still feel the only debate here is a business one of whether it makes sense to give a big contract if they may blow things up if things don't turn out well this season.
Frankly I think that goes for any big money player, giving a large contract and boxing any portion of the salary cap in if a new regime, new staff is going to come in. That just gets exacerbated at QB which is the position Eli plays. This is not about Eli the man and player, it could be any player under center for us.
And guess what, it would be the logical thing to say even if we had any of the aforementioned players that have high contracts and were in their contract year. Brees, Brady, P Manning, Rivers, Ben...all of them. It changes the conversation from being about Eli.
the hardest thing to find for a rebuilding team is the QB...if you have one you do not get rid of them, it is much easier to rebuild with a QB already in place...
Look at the Jets or Bills both teams have the defenses and the weapons yet they do not have a QB and their team is a question mark...
you put ELI on either of those teams and they are super bowl contenders instantly...
Also speculates that the team is spinning it as Eli seeking to be the highest player but Eli is really just using the numbers he knows he would get under a franchise tag to negotiate a longer deal.
Nothing earth shattering here, but interesting enough, IMO.
I would be disappointed if the Giants were the ones to leak this info. The last thing Eli needs this close to the season is to answer for this BS. But I don't see how it benefits Eli and his camp to leak the info. The silly outrage from fans certainly puts pressure on Eli to sign for less. I just think it's a pretty pathetic move this close to the season.
Florio - ( New Window )
Good times.
His co-host said, "Not with two Super Bowl MVPs ... you have to factor that in, to be fair."
North responded that Eli got lucky ... and "was in the right place at the right time."
Oy.
Beezer,
I feel like that's the general opinion of Eli by non Giants fans and media people. To be fair, there are fans and media people who give him his props, but overall I seem to get that impression. Like he got lucky, or the defense really won it. It's almost as if they have this opinion of him and now it's etched in stone.
That's why I hope this new system can allow him to get really good stats. Even if we don't win another SB, if he can produce very good numbers, that will hopefully go far in changing peoples opinions.
This place f'n blows.
Why? Emotion and homerism aside Flacco's 4 years younger, and in his first seven years there really isn't a meaningfully measurable area of Flacco's performance that isn't better than Eli's during his first 7. Eli threw 8 more TD's in that span, but 23 more picks.
A very logical case can be made that, say, a 5 year contract for Flacco should be higher than such a contract for Eli. Put it this way -- if they were both free agents I know who most teams would prefer to pay more to.
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when you say Eli doesnt deserve to get paid as much as Joe f'n Flacco.
This place f'n blows.
Why? Emotion and homerism aside Flacco's 4 years younger, and in his first seven years there really isn't a meaningfully measurable area of Flacco's performance that isn't better than Eli's during his first 7. Eli threw 8 more TD's in that span, but 23 more picks.
A very logical case can be made that, say, a 5 year contract for Flacco should be higher than such a contract for Eli. Put it this way -- if they were both free agents I know who most teams would prefer to pay more to.
I disagree with this comoletely. Eli bounced back with a very good year and can still play for years to come. Eli is a better QB who has played with worse talent around him ad proven by multiple posters.
I am not knocking Flacco as a player, but eli has every right to ask for money per year than flacco.
and if teams want flacco over eli.... they are making a mistake.
Whether or not Eli wants to be the highest paid QB - who knows but I seriously doubt he actually said that and want to know who Rappaport's source is. Totally ridiculous, IMV, and just something to start a shitstorm.
Can not be "proven" as objectively true. For example, if you're working backwards from "Eli is great and unfairly maligned," you're already predisposed to dismiss the talent around him and inflate the talent around his other QB peers. Flacco had Ray Rice, sure, and a great defense, but there's no logical system that can assess how much their greatness minimized Flacco's contribution to his team's success that can't also be applied to the very-above-average wide receivers Eli has enjoyed playing with his entire career.
Probably the best way to compare would be to watch some arbitrarily decided amount of plays -- say, the first 500 plays of each of their 2014 season -- from each player and adjust for other mitigating factors, like another player's injury or return from injury. If you do that, are you really sure that Flacco at 4 years younger (not an insignificant factor here) wouldn't be more appealing to most GM's? I wouldn't be.
PFT - ( New Window )
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when you say Eli doesnt deserve to get paid as much as Joe f'n Flacco.
This place f'n blows.
Why? Emotion and homerism aside Flacco's 4 years younger, and in his first seven years there really isn't a meaningfully measurable area of Flacco's performance that isn't better than Eli's during his first 7. Eli threw 8 more TD's in that span, but 23 more picks.
A very logical case can be made that, say, a 5 year contract for Flacco should be higher than such a contract for Eli. Put it this way -- if they were both free agents I know who most teams would prefer to pay more to.
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In comment 12423514 dep026 said:
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when you say Eli doesnt deserve to get paid as much as Joe f'n Flacco.
This place f'n blows.
Why? Emotion and homerism aside Flacco's 4 years younger, and in his first seven years there really isn't a meaningfully measurable area of Flacco's performance that isn't better than Eli's during his first 7. Eli threw 8 more TD's in that span, but 23 more picks.
A very logical case can be made that, say, a 5 year contract for Flacco should be higher than such a contract for Eli. Put it this way -- if they were both free agents I know who most teams would prefer to pay more to.
thank you. and those 23 picks impacted some of the team defense numbers cited, because they were either pick sixes leading directly to points against, or resulted in very good field position for opponents. Eli has made more jaw dropping, highlight reel throws over his career, but he's also made more boneheaded, WTF was he doing plays.
You were proven wrong by about 5 people. You should leave the discussion for the people who know what they are talking about.
Flacco has had a batter defense and a better run game for his entire career and has thrown for less yards, tds, and a lower completion percentage than Eli during the 7 years he has played.
But your right, he was the MAIN reason why Baltimore went to the playoffs all these years. If you are going to make up shit, at least admit when you have been proven wrong.
YOu must not have paid attention to last year. He cut down on picks and raised his completion %.
7 years of data has proven that flacco has had a really good defense and run game. All have statistically performed better than the Giants. I dont know how that get be dismissed when talking about the talent surrounding the QBs. Two other posters brought up the stats, not me.
Les said so himself that he highly disagreed that Flacco has played with more talent around him, and that he was the reason why the Ravens were in the playoffs year after year.
But what about these stats:
- he has only been top 10 in passes completed once. Only twice has he been top 10 in attempts. Where as eli has been top 10 in completion 6 times and attempts 6 times as well.
- Flacco has been top 10 in passing TDs once. Eli 8 times
- Flacco has never been in top 10 in yards thrown. Eli 5 times.
- Flacco has been top 10 in YPA once. Eli 4 times.
- He has been i nthe top 10 of INTs less than eli, but also been in the top for more fumbles than Eli.
If there was ever a QB who was technically a bus driver, its Flacco. But again, I dont know if this is more proof or not on whether Eli deserves more money than Flacco. It certainly shows that he has done more though.
When BAL won the SB, he had 11 TDs - 0 picks in the playoffs and SB and close to a 120 QB rating in these 4 games. It was consistent too. In each game he was consistently outstanding. He also made a number of sick throws and plays.
Flacco carried them to two playoff wins (including SB) when the D allowed 30+ points.
3 of the BAL playoff opponents had top 10 defenses. The 2 games the BAL D allowed 31 and 35 were vs Den and SF. These 2 had the #4 and #2 defense in the NFL in points allowed. Vs these top defenses, BAL scored 38 and 35 while Flacco threw for 600+ with 6Tds and 0 picks.
BTW, vs SF In SB, Rive averaged less than 2 YPC. The team averaged 2.4 YPC on 35 carries.
If you're argument is Eli is big in the big games then you have to say the same about Flacco.
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Team 1st Eh? Cut down on the INT's brutha
YOu must not have paid attention to last year. He cut down on picks and raised his completion %.
Ignore him. He is another poster who is a gem during the game threads wherever Eli throws an incompletion he goes and says something of the likes "Where's Nassib" or the "bad eli out playing today" or the ever intelligent "Eli sucks."
One of many here. But none will ever admit or have the balls to say that they think Eli sucks.
When BAL won the SB, he had 11 TDs - 0 picks in the playoffs and SB and close to a 120 QB rating in these 4 games. It was consistent too. In each game he was consistently outstanding. He also made a number of sick throws and plays.
Flacco carried them to two playoff wins (including SB) when the D allowed 30+ points.
3 of the BAL playoff opponents had top 10 defenses. The 2 games the BAL D allowed 31 and 35 were vs Den and SF. These 2 had the #4 and #2 defense in the NFL in points allowed. Vs these top defenses, BAL scored 38 and 35 while Flacco threw for 600+ with 6Tds and 0 picks.
BTW, vs SF In SB, Rive averaged less than 2 YPC. The team averaged 2.4 YPC on 35 carries.
If you're argument is Eli is big in the big games then you have to say the same about Flacco.
I have nothing to disagree with there. Much liek eli, he has played better in the playoffs. The point of this conversation though is that Flacco has not been the driving force for all of Baltimore's success. To be frank, in the regular season, it could be said he was along for the ride more than anything.
When BAL won the SB, he had 11 TDs - 0 picks in the playoffs and SB and close to a 120 QB rating in these 4 games. It was consistent too. In each game he was consistently outstanding. He also made a number of sick throws and plays.
Flacco carried them to two playoff wins (including SB) when the D allowed 30+ points.
3 of the BAL playoff opponents had top 10 defenses. The 2 games the BAL D allowed 31 and 35 were vs Den and SF. These 2 had the #4 and #2 defense in the NFL in points allowed. Vs these top defenses, BAL scored 38 and 35 while Flacco threw for 600+ with 6Tds and 0 picks.
BTW, vs SF In SB, Rive averaged less than 2 YPC. The team averaged 2.4 YPC on 35 carries.
If you're argument is Eli is big in the big games then you have to say the same about Flacco.
KWALL is dropping some serious knowledge here. Couldn't have possibly said it any better.
One posters saying on the open market, Flacco would get more is probably right.
Because there isn't this easy-to-quantify NFL player trait called "talent," a figure that you can create an objective total figure on your roster and then say, "See? Eli achieved his success despite a total talent quotient of 103.2, whereas Flacco had a much higher 160!"
Sure, like every other non-Giant player in the NFL, Flacco played with some players who played their positions better than the players on the Giants played theirs. But the opposite is true as well. You can't just take stats from various positions, say, "X benefitted from Y, but A's performance was diminished by B!" and call that "proof."
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One posters saying on the open market, Flacco would get more is probably right.
I dont think anyone is saying Flacco sucks.... but if we are going on how the produce.... Eli deserves the same if not more than Flacco. If people think Eli is an average regular season QB.... cant you say the same thing about him?
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I dont know how that get be dismissed when talking about the talent surrounding the QBs.
Because there isn't this easy-to-quantify NFL player trait called "talent," a figure that you can create an objective total figure on your roster and then say, "See? Eli achieved his success despite a total talent quotient of 103.2, whereas Flacco had a much higher 160!"
Sure, like every other non-Giant player in the NFL, Flacco played with some players who played their positions better than the players on the Giants played theirs. But the opposite is true as well. You can't just take stats from various positions, say, "X benefitted from Y, but A's performance was diminished by B!" and call that "proof."
You may not be able to do it with individual players, but you most certainly can do it for units. Are you going to argue that the Giants have had better defenses and run games than the Giants the last 7 years? Despite the what the outcomes and stats say?
my post was about how strong their run game and defenses have been. If you look at Flacco's regular season numbers (especially the ones I just posted), they are what average is. Its not farfetched to say in the regular season he is asked to do a lot less than most QBs as his number of passes attempts/completed, TDs, and Yards indicate.
He's a very good qb. Id probably put him somewhere around 10-12. But I dont think he is better than Eli. If we rip Eli for INts and being in accurate - you can definitely say the same things about him as well.
I also wouldn't agree with Eli deserves more than Flacco right now. He's older. He's not as physically gifted. There more risk with Eli going forward from this point to fail to play up to a huge deal.
I hope he stays in NY and plays 4-5 more years. I just think any talk that he should be the highest paid QB is ridiculous.
I also wouldn't agree with Eli deserves more than Flacco right now. He's older. He's not as physically gifted. There more risk with Eli going forward from this point to fail to play up to a huge deal.
I hope he stays in NY and plays 4-5 more years. I just think any talk that he should be the highest paid QB is ridiculous.
If there OL wasnt good, how were they a top 10 rushing team just about every year he has been in the NFL? Sure, Eli has played with some good OLs. But you dont have a bad OL and rush with the success that they had.
But if you dont think he deserves as much if not more than Joe Flacco, than I dont know what to tell you.
Somebody seems to be saying he should be the highest.
Somebody seems to be saying he should be the highest.
Oh well everyone participating believes that he shouldnt. There was an argument that he doesnt deserve more than Flacco.
the number of completed passes, passing attempts and yardage are not indicative metrics when judging a QB. a lot of completed passes and yardage could happen in garbage time when the giants have been down big and playing against softer defenses, which has happened a lot in recent years.
Flacco was not exactly handed the keys to the 1999 st Louis rams or the 1995 san Francisco 49ers. his surrounding talent has been consistently average. and his defenses have not been on the same level as the 2000 ravens or the 2002 bucs as examples. he's not a trent dilfer or brad Johnson.
people are also glossing over Eli's INTs but turnovers are game changers. there is a reason every coach harps on winning the turnover battle. you protect the ball and you have a better chance of winning. and Eli's INT numbers have been in the bottom half of all QBs. granted, some of that was gilbride's system, but some of it was he's not on the same page as his receivers.
Again, 6 out of his 7 years in the league, flacco has won at least one playoff game with the ravens. eli has only done that 2 out of his 11 years in the league. factor in he's 4 years younger than eli, flacco deserves to be paid more.
So the QB that has the benefit of the better or healthier roster should be paid more because of the players around him?
So is flacco better than marino?
the number of completed passes, passing attempts and yardage are not indicative metrics when judging a QB. a lot of completed passes and yardage could happen in garbage time when the giants have been down big and playing against softer defenses, which has happened a lot in recent years.
Flacco was not exactly handed the keys to the 1999 st Louis rams or the 1995 san Francisco 49ers. his surrounding talent has been consistently average. and his defenses have not been on the same level as the 2000 ravens or the 2002 bucs as examples. he's not a trent dilfer or brad Johnson.
people are also glossing over Eli's INTs but turnovers are game changers. there is a reason every coach harps on winning the turnover battle. you protect the ball and you have a better chance of winning. and Eli's INT numbers have been in the bottom half of all QBs. granted, some of that was gilbride's system, but some of it was he's not on the same page as his receivers.
Again, 6 out of his 7 years in the league, flacco has won at least one playoff game with the ravens. eli has only done that 2 out of his 11 years in the league. factor in he's 4 years younger than eli, flacco deserves to be paid more.
remember people this is the same poster who said brady and peyton had little tale to work with over their careers.
so instead of taking what he says in context. just ignore. he is by far and away the biggest eli hater in this forum.
No, but I'm also not going to argue that those Ravens units somehow automatically decrease Flacco's own abilities, as if through magic.
When BAL won the SB, he had 11 TDs - 0 picks in the playoffs and SB and close to a 120 QB rating in these 4 games. It was consistent too. In each game he was consistently outstanding. He also made a number of sick throws and plays.
Flacco carried them to two playoff wins (including SB) when the D allowed 30+ points.
3 of the BAL playoff opponents had top 10 defenses. The 2 games the BAL D allowed 31 and 35 were vs Den and SF. These 2 had the #4 and #2 defense in the NFL in points allowed. Vs these top defenses, BAL scored 38 and 35 while Flacco threw for 600+ with 6Tds and 0 picks.
BTW, vs SF In SB, Rive averaged less than 2 YPC. The team averaged 2.4 YPC on 35 carries.
If you're argument is Eli is big in the big games then you have to say the same about Flacco.
How many of those playoff games that you mention happened to be at home or on the road. It always amazes me in these discussions that the fact that Eli has won more playoff games on the road with a team that barely made the playoffs gets convenitely overlooked when he is discussed
That's the real benchmark in the contract negotiations for the Giants quarterback, according to multiple sources familiar with the situation.
Both Philip Rivers and Ben Roethlisberger, the other two quarterbacks from the first round of the 2004 draft, have already received lucrative contract extensions this off-season worth in the neighborhood of $21 million per season.
Manning is looking to be paid at least as much as, and likely more than, both.
So far the Giants offer hasn't been in that financial neighborhood, which is why a source told the Daily News there remains a “significant gap” between the two sides in negotiations.
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Well, two of the playoff games they won on their way to the Super Bowl were on the road, including the one featuring a pretty impressive comeback against the Broncos.
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How many of those playoff games that you mention happened to be at home or on the road. It always amazes me in these discussions that the fact that Eli has won more playoff games on the road with a team that barely made the playoffs gets convenitely overlooked when he is discussed
Well, two of the playoff games they won on their way to the Super Bowl were on the road, including the one featuring a pretty impressive comeback against the Broncos.
Well how many of Eli's playoff wins were on the road? How many of them were we the underdogs?
I'm willing to beat there were quite a few in comparison, would you not agree?
So the QB that has the benefit of the better or healthier roster should be paid more because of the players around him?
every stat needs context, but in my view sustained winning is the most important one. if there is one position on the team that has the biggest impact on whether a team wins or not it's the QB spot.
trent dilfer was an average/below average QB, who lucked out in 2000 when he played on a team with an all time great defense...but that defense didn't play at that elite level year after year and he did not have the same wining consistency in tampa and seattle. you could say the same thing about brad Johnson, Hostettler and a number of other QBs that caught fire leading amazing defenses but left with non-superstar supporting casts could not sustain the same success year after year.
I never saw archie play so I can't comment on what kind of QB he was.
Marino had a 61% winning percentage and regualrly got his teams into the playoffs, but he never was able to win the big one. I would not use him as an example of a great QB that lingered on bad teams.
All I'm trying to say is that when the Giants are negotiating Eli's contract and looking at how other comparable Qbs are being paid, Flacco deserves to at be in that analysis. I know it's a tough pill for the Saint Eli believers who go crazy whenever someone like me suggests that maybe other QBs are just as good if not better and/or present a balanced/objective evaluation of Eli..... and label me as anti-Eli or an Eli hater which I am absolutely not.
Said the guy who thinks Peyton and Brady played with hardly any talent in their careers.
Oh, and one more gem from the guy who likes to hypocrite himself. One thing he has said about Eli.....
That a lot of the drops our WRs had last year were eli's fault. Again, this guy is the biggest Eli hater on the board. He wanted to cut him last year. This guy knows absolutely NOTHING about the position. He just has an Eli axe to grind. It's sad, yet pathetic at the same time.
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QBs can have fine seasons and still not make the playoffs.
So the QB that has the benefit of the better or healthier roster should be paid more because of the players around him?
every stat needs context, but in my view sustained winning is the most important one. if there is one position on the team that has the biggest impact on whether a team wins or not it's the QB spot.
trent dilfer was an average/below average QB, who lucked out in 2000 when he played on a team with an all time great defense...but that defense didn't play at that elite level year after year and he did not have the same wining consistency in tampa and seattle. you could say the same thing about brad Johnson, Hostettler and a number of other QBs that caught fire leading amazing defenses but left with non-superstar supporting casts could not sustain the same success year after year.
I never saw archie play so I can't comment on what kind of QB he was.
Marino had a 61% winning percentage and regualrly got his teams into the playoffs, but he never was able to win the big one. I would not use him as an example of a great QB that lingered on bad teams.
All I'm trying to say is that when the Giants are negotiating Eli's contract and looking at how other comparable Qbs are being paid, Flacco deserves to at be in that analysis. I know it's a tough pill for the Saint Eli believers who go crazy whenever someone like me suggests that maybe other QBs are just as good if not better and/or present a balanced/objective evaluation of Eli..... and label me as anti-Eli or an Eli hater which I am absolutely not.
You are about as objective on the Eli as HRC is on her personal email server. If you want proof on how you are the biggest anti-Eli guy on the site.... I would gladly supply the shit you turned up last year. I have done it once, and Ill do it again.
That is starting point which will make him the highest paid guy. The rest is just noise.
Eli is worth every penny.
Said the guy who thinks Peyton and Brady played with hardly any talent in their careers.
Oh, and one more gem from the guy who likes to hypocrite himself. One thing he has said about Eli.....
That a lot of the drops our WRs had last year were eli's fault. Again, this guy is the biggest Eli hater on the board. He wanted to cut him last year. This guy knows absolutely NOTHING about the position. He just has an Eli axe to grind. It's sad, yet pathetic at the same time.
you were not paying attention to the lesson, son.
Flacco has not had significantly better surrounding talent than Eli over the course of their careers. He's never had a prime Plaxico, Nicks, Cruz and Beckham to throw to. The Giants defense was a mess in 2009 and 2014, but the Ravens D was not world class year in year out.
Peyton had Harrison and Wayne and Brady had Moss for a couple of years, but they've also repeated their winning success, year after year, with different offensive lines, running backs, and supporting receivers. They have not been blessed with superior surrounding talent than Eli over the course of their careers.
I did not say that a lot of the drops were Eli's fault. That is either a lie, your foggy memory, your twitchiness to respond to posts within seconds even after a day of delay ,or your lack of reading comprehension. I may have said that one or two specific drops that you blamed on the receivers in post game threads, were actually throws that were off target/behind the receiver and would have been incredibly difficult catches.
I have no axe to grind with Eli. I do have an axe to grind with Eli homers who labels anyone that critizes Eli as a hater. I'm a Giants fan first and I value the team winning above anything else and I don't want the Giants to overpay for Eli if it means we are not going to be able to spend on other parts of the team and consequently lessen our chances of fielding the best possible talent.
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In comment 12424685 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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QBs can have fine seasons and still not make the playoffs.
So the QB that has the benefit of the better or healthier roster should be paid more because of the players around him?
every stat needs context, but in my view sustained winning is the most important one. if there is one position on the team that has the biggest impact on whether a team wins or not it's the QB spot.
trent dilfer was an average/below average QB, who lucked out in 2000 when he played on a team with an all time great defense...but that defense didn't play at that elite level year after year and he did not have the same wining consistency in tampa and seattle. you could say the same thing about brad Johnson, Hostettler and a number of other QBs that caught fire leading amazing defenses but left with non-superstar supporting casts could not sustain the same success year after year.
I never saw archie play so I can't comment on what kind of QB he was.
Marino had a 61% winning percentage and regualrly got his teams into the playoffs, but he never was able to win the big one. I would not use him as an example of a great QB that lingered on bad teams.
All I'm trying to say is that when the Giants are negotiating Eli's contract and looking at how other comparable Qbs are being paid, Flacco deserves to at be in that analysis. I know it's a tough pill for the Saint Eli believers who go crazy whenever someone like me suggests that maybe other QBs are just as good if not better and/or present a balanced/objective evaluation of Eli..... and label me as anti-Eli or an Eli hater which I am absolutely not.
You are about as objective on the Eli as HRC is on her personal email server. If you want proof on how you are the biggest anti-Eli guy on the site.... I would gladly supply the shit you turned up last year. I have done it once, and Ill do it again.
lol, you calling me out for not being objective on Eli is actually the funniest thing I've read on my 20 years on BBI, or at least tied with bavarofan's pee stain.
So lets break down this gem. You see all that talent deficiency brady and Peyton had: You know the Wayne, Harrions, Edge James, Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Emmanuel Sanders, Dallas Clark, Julius Thomas, Wes Wlker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Randy Moss, edelman. How these two ever overcome this talent? And as far as their OLines. I guess guys like Jeff Saturday, Logan Mankins among many other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
And we all know that Eli needs a solid running game and defense to win it all. The 32nd ranked run game and the 26th ranked defense carried him in 2011.
Lets continue...
Seems your are disappointed that the Giants won. Pathetic.
Going on...
Yes this is a reason to get rid of him. Because you know guys like Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford are so fleet a foot.
There you go people, even if he puts right into the WRs hands, Eli is too blame as well.
You hear that guys. If a guy like Preston Parker is playing, Eli needs to put more time in the film room so he can be a pro bowler. Forget he has taken UDFA and made them look good. And took a guy who barely practiced last year in the preseason, missed 4 games, and somehow the two formed a great combo that the league couldnt stop. Damn you Eli!!!!!
Its amazing that even analyst said one of Eli's strength is his mobility in the pocket. And I think we have see nEli escape some plays here and there, but not Les. He likes a guy like RGIII. Lets run around and get knocked out!
Name ONE QB who won consistently and got into the playoffs with no talent around him.
Yep, you are an objective fan. Get rid of eli!!! NOW!!!!!
Yep, McAdoo was a complete failure last year. And we need a running QB!!!!!! YES!!!!
This was a remark about how he played against teeams. In those 4 teams where he played average, Eli threw 7 TDs and 1 INT and we won 2 of those games. I think his completion perentage was rather high too. But he's objective. He said so himself.
You're right though, I dont understand why fans support players from their own teams, especially when he has produced 2 SB trophies as the QB and has had a lot of great games throughout the years. The nerve of those fans!!!!
This is a league that has teams able to compete in any given year..Prior years don't mean all that much in today's NFL..What matters is the health of your roster, starters and their backups, imo..
I don't need to and won't preface my praise of another QB, or why the Giants should not roll over in contract negotiations with Eli, by also repeating all of Eli's strengths, just to keep Eli superfans from being offended.
I'm done with you on this thread.
I don't need to and won't preface my praise of another QB, or why the Giants should not roll over in contract negotiations with Eli, by also repeating all of Eli's strengths, just to keep Eli superfans from being offended.
I'm done with you on this thread.
So when you say we need to gut the roster, including the QB... that means you want to keep him? Help a simple folk out. how did I take that out of context?
and when you said peyton and brady played with less talent and i listed all the pro bowl/HOF players they played with... how did I take that out of context?
and where you said part of the drops by wrs were eli's fault.... how did I take that out of context by saying you blamed eli?
do you want me to keep going? I posted what YOU said and didn't change one word of it. but thrn again, your objective. ... HAHAHA
I think it's best you not only leave the thread but leave the forum as well. it was my pleasure exposing you.
here's a newsflash.... the giants have had 3 pro bowl selections from their WRs since 2007. brady and peyton have had players make more than that themselves. but again. I won't let facts get in the way if another mindless rant from you.
I'm willing to beat there were quite a few in comparison, would you not agree?
I don't really honestly know -- I'm sure the Ravens had a few more road playoff games, and they probably were considered underdogs in some, but looking back through Vegas archives isn't appealing. But what would be the point? Have we decided that road playoff victories are a demonstrably better barometer of a QB's worth than things like putting together a few 12+ win seasons?
It just seems like we're scrambling to come up with measures that place Eli ahead of a guy like Flacco. When you do that, the measures themselves tend to be flawed.
One thing to note, Eli is also more accurate now than Flacco. which is kind of surprising being that Eli gets knocked for inaccuracies all the time.
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whereas elite quarterbacks like peyton brady and luck can overcome talent deficinecies surrounding them with their smarts, leadership and athleticism respectively, eli needs a solid running game and pass protection to be at his best.
other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
Look, it's not Les' fault you either didn't spot the word "respectively" or don't understand what the word means.
You have to at least entertain the idea that you're so ingrained a particular position that it leads you to assign positions or arguments to others, so you can dismiss them. What you just did above is a good example of that. Maybe it's unconscious, I dunno.
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whereas elite quarterbacks like peyton brady and luck can overcome talent deficinecies surrounding them with their smarts, leadership and athleticism respectively, eli needs a solid running game and pass protection to be at his best.
So lets break down this gem. You see all that talent deficiency brady and Peyton had: You know the Wayne, Harrions, Edge James, Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Emmanuel Sanders, Dallas Clark, Julius Thomas, Wes Wlker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Randy Moss, edelman. How these two ever overcome this talent? And as far as their OLines. I guess guys like Jeff Saturday, Logan Mankins among many other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
And we all know that Eli needs a solid running game and defense to win it all. The 32nd ranked run game and the 26th ranked defense carried him in 2011.
Lets continue...
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and if asante samuel holds on to the INT in Super Bowl 42 and kevin williams gets out of the way of the weatherford punt, Eli has Zero Super Bowls.
Seems your are disappointed that the Giants won. Pathetic.
Going on...
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but he has his limitations athletically
Yes this is a reason to get rid of him. Because you know guys like Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford are so fleet a foot.
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some of the drops were his receiver's fault, but he gets some of the blame too.
There you go people, even if he puts right into the WRs hands, Eli is too blame as well.
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if eli has inexperienced guys around him it's on him as the leader of the offense to put in the extra time to make sure they are all aligned and to put in the extra time with someone else to be that safety blanket.
You hear that guys. If a guy like Preston Parker is playing, Eli needs to put more time in the film room so he can be a pro bowler. Forget he has taken UDFA and made them look good. And took a guy who barely practiced last year in the preseason, missed 4 games, and somehow the two formed a great combo that the league couldnt stop. Damn you Eli!!!!!
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he also cannot escape pressure or create plays with his legs, which is an underappreciated skill set from giants fans as we haven't had a mobile QB since hostettler.
Its amazing that even analyst said one of Eli's strength is his mobility in the pocket. And I think we have see nEli escape some plays here and there, but not Les. He likes a guy like RGIII. Lets run around and get knocked out!
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A great QB can cover up deficiencies in line or skill position talent so yeah his lack of playoff appearances is partially on him
Name ONE QB who won consistently and got into the playoffs with no talent around him.
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We need to completely tear down and rebuild this team including the QB position.
Yep, you are an objective fan. Get rid of eli!!! NOW!!!!!
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We need to rebuild; new coach new system a QB that can keep defended honest with an occasional run
Yep, McAdoo was a complete failure last year. And we need a running QB!!!!!! YES!!!!
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average in others (seattle, atlanta, houston and indy)
This was a remark about how he played against teeams. In those 4 teams where he played average, Eli threw 7 TDs and 1 INT and we won 2 of those games. I think his completion perentage was rather high too. But he's objective. He said so himself.
Jesus Christ.
Dep, you're the one being the dick here. You're the one trying to expose Les and your method isn't reflecting well on you. Like KWall said in some other argument that digressed similarly, clean up your act.
Les, do me a favor. Look up how many total snaps the Giants played last season. Now tell me how many times ELi passed the ball.
Does it make me right? Not really, but thats the thing I dont care. Everything I posted was what HE said. If you want to defend him for his remarks (Saint Eli defenders, calling all of us blind homers, and questioning or knowledge as a whole) thats your choice. So if you are going to come at me and not him, well that shows me something too.
All I did was post all the things he has said that were flat out lies, ridiculous statements, and comments he denied making earlier in the thread.
So be that as it may, I exposed him of being anti-Eli guy. And thats fine if he actually admitted it. So the best course is to let this thread die. The initial premesis was proven false anyways.
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These are all gems from Les in TO, you know the objective one:
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whereas elite quarterbacks like peyton brady and luck can overcome talent deficinecies surrounding them with their smarts, leadership and athleticism respectively, eli needs a solid running game and pass protection to be at his best.
So lets break down this gem. You see all that talent deficiency brady and Peyton had: You know the Wayne, Harrions, Edge James, Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Emmanuel Sanders, Dallas Clark, Julius Thomas, Wes Wlker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Randy Moss, edelman. How these two ever overcome this talent? And as far as their OLines. I guess guys like Jeff Saturday, Logan Mankins among many other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
And we all know that Eli needs a solid running game and defense to win it all. The 32nd ranked run game and the 26th ranked defense carried him in 2011.
Lets continue...
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and if asante samuel holds on to the INT in Super Bowl 42 and kevin williams gets out of the way of the weatherford punt, Eli has Zero Super Bowls.
Seems your are disappointed that the Giants won. Pathetic.
Going on...
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but he has his limitations athletically
Yes this is a reason to get rid of him. Because you know guys like Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford are so fleet a foot.
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some of the drops were his receiver's fault, but he gets some of the blame too.
There you go people, even if he puts right into the WRs hands, Eli is too blame as well.
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if eli has inexperienced guys around him it's on him as the leader of the offense to put in the extra time to make sure they are all aligned and to put in the extra time with someone else to be that safety blanket.
You hear that guys. If a guy like Preston Parker is playing, Eli needs to put more time in the film room so he can be a pro bowler. Forget he has taken UDFA and made them look good. And took a guy who barely practiced last year in the preseason, missed 4 games, and somehow the two formed a great combo that the league couldnt stop. Damn you Eli!!!!!
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he also cannot escape pressure or create plays with his legs, which is an underappreciated skill set from giants fans as we haven't had a mobile QB since hostettler.
Its amazing that even analyst said one of Eli's strength is his mobility in the pocket. And I think we have see nEli escape some plays here and there, but not Les. He likes a guy like RGIII. Lets run around and get knocked out!
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A great QB can cover up deficiencies in line or skill position talent so yeah his lack of playoff appearances is partially on him
Name ONE QB who won consistently and got into the playoffs with no talent around him.
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We need to completely tear down and rebuild this team including the QB position.
Yep, you are an objective fan. Get rid of eli!!! NOW!!!!!
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We need to rebuild; new coach new system a QB that can keep defended honest with an occasional run
Yep, McAdoo was a complete failure last year. And we need a running QB!!!!!! YES!!!!
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average in others (seattle, atlanta, houston and indy)
This was a remark about how he played against teeams. In those 4 teams where he played average, Eli threw 7 TDs and 1 INT and we won 2 of those games. I think his completion perentage was rather high too. But he's objective. He said so himself.
Jesus Christ.
Dep, you're the one being the dick here. You're the one trying to expose Les and your method isn't reflecting well on you. Like KWall said in some other argument that digressed similarly, clean up your act.
Just wanted to continue the quote train.
You have to at least entertain the idea that you're so ingrained a particular position that it leads you to assign positions or arguments to others, so you can dismiss them. What you just did above is a good example of that. Maybe it's unconscious, I dunno.
And what is my position? That I think Eli should get paid more than Joe Flacco but not as much as guys like rodgers, Brady, or Luck (which I said earlier in the thread?)
And again, sorry I defend Eli here more than others. I shouldnt make such outlandish statements next time.
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In comment 12425455 dep026 said:
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These are all gems from Les in TO, you know the objective one:
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whereas elite quarterbacks like peyton brady and luck can overcome talent deficinecies surrounding them with their smarts, leadership and athleticism respectively, eli needs a solid running game and pass protection to be at his best.
So lets break down this gem. You see all that talent deficiency brady and Peyton had: You know the Wayne, Harrions, Edge James, Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Emmanuel Sanders, Dallas Clark, Julius Thomas, Wes Wlker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Randy Moss, edelman. How these two ever overcome this talent? And as far as their OLines. I guess guys like Jeff Saturday, Logan Mankins among many other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
And we all know that Eli needs a solid running game and defense to win it all. The 32nd ranked run game and the 26th ranked defense carried him in 2011.
Lets continue...
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and if asante samuel holds on to the INT in Super Bowl 42 and kevin williams gets out of the way of the weatherford punt, Eli has Zero Super Bowls.
Seems your are disappointed that the Giants won. Pathetic.
Going on...
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but he has his limitations athletically
Yes this is a reason to get rid of him. Because you know guys like Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford are so fleet a foot.
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some of the drops were his receiver's fault, but he gets some of the blame too.
There you go people, even if he puts right into the WRs hands, Eli is too blame as well.
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if eli has inexperienced guys around him it's on him as the leader of the offense to put in the extra time to make sure they are all aligned and to put in the extra time with someone else to be that safety blanket.
You hear that guys. If a guy like Preston Parker is playing, Eli needs to put more time in the film room so he can be a pro bowler. Forget he has taken UDFA and made them look good. And took a guy who barely practiced last year in the preseason, missed 4 games, and somehow the two formed a great combo that the league couldnt stop. Damn you Eli!!!!!
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he also cannot escape pressure or create plays with his legs, which is an underappreciated skill set from giants fans as we haven't had a mobile QB since hostettler.
Its amazing that even analyst said one of Eli's strength is his mobility in the pocket. And I think we have see nEli escape some plays here and there, but not Les. He likes a guy like RGIII. Lets run around and get knocked out!
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A great QB can cover up deficiencies in line or skill position talent so yeah his lack of playoff appearances is partially on him
Name ONE QB who won consistently and got into the playoffs with no talent around him.
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We need to completely tear down and rebuild this team including the QB position.
Yep, you are an objective fan. Get rid of eli!!! NOW!!!!!
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We need to rebuild; new coach new system a QB that can keep defended honest with an occasional run
Yep, McAdoo was a complete failure last year. And we need a running QB!!!!!! YES!!!!
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average in others (seattle, atlanta, houston and indy)
This was a remark about how he played against teeams. In those 4 teams where he played average, Eli threw 7 TDs and 1 INT and we won 2 of those games. I think his completion perentage was rather high too. But he's objective. He said so himself.
Jesus Christ.
Dep, you're the one being the dick here. You're the one trying to expose Les and your method isn't reflecting well on you. Like KWall said in some other argument that digressed similarly, clean up your act.
Just wanted to continue the quote train.
Your contributions are always appreciated.
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In comment 12425937 santacruzom said:
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In comment 12425455 dep026 said:
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These are all gems from Les in TO, you know the objective one:
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whereas elite quarterbacks like peyton brady and luck can overcome talent deficinecies surrounding them with their smarts, leadership and athleticism respectively, eli needs a solid running game and pass protection to be at his best.
So lets break down this gem. You see all that talent deficiency brady and Peyton had: You know the Wayne, Harrions, Edge James, Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Emmanuel Sanders, Dallas Clark, Julius Thomas, Wes Wlker, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Randy Moss, edelman. How these two ever overcome this talent? And as far as their OLines. I guess guys like Jeff Saturday, Logan Mankins among many other pro bowl OL they played with? Great start there... Oh lets not forget how athletic Peyton is!!!!
And we all know that Eli needs a solid running game and defense to win it all. The 32nd ranked run game and the 26th ranked defense carried him in 2011.
Lets continue...
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and if asante samuel holds on to the INT in Super Bowl 42 and kevin williams gets out of the way of the weatherford punt, Eli has Zero Super Bowls.
Seems your are disappointed that the Giants won. Pathetic.
Going on...
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but he has his limitations athletically
Yes this is a reason to get rid of him. Because you know guys like Peyton, Rivers, Ryan, Stafford are so fleet a foot.
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some of the drops were his receiver's fault, but he gets some of the blame too.
There you go people, even if he puts right into the WRs hands, Eli is too blame as well.
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if eli has inexperienced guys around him it's on him as the leader of the offense to put in the extra time to make sure they are all aligned and to put in the extra time with someone else to be that safety blanket.
You hear that guys. If a guy like Preston Parker is playing, Eli needs to put more time in the film room so he can be a pro bowler. Forget he has taken UDFA and made them look good. And took a guy who barely practiced last year in the preseason, missed 4 games, and somehow the two formed a great combo that the league couldnt stop. Damn you Eli!!!!!
Quote:
he also cannot escape pressure or create plays with his legs, which is an underappreciated skill set from giants fans as we haven't had a mobile QB since hostettler.
Its amazing that even analyst said one of Eli's strength is his mobility in the pocket. And I think we have see nEli escape some plays here and there, but not Les. He likes a guy like RGIII. Lets run around and get knocked out!
Quote:
A great QB can cover up deficiencies in line or skill position talent so yeah his lack of playoff appearances is partially on him
Name ONE QB who won consistently and got into the playoffs with no talent around him.
Quote:
We need to completely tear down and rebuild this team including the QB position.
Yep, you are an objective fan. Get rid of eli!!! NOW!!!!!
Quote:
We need to rebuild; new coach new system a QB that can keep defended honest with an occasional run
Yep, McAdoo was a complete failure last year. And we need a running QB!!!!!! YES!!!!
Quote:
average in others (seattle, atlanta, houston and indy)
This was a remark about how he played against teeams. In those 4 teams where he played average, Eli threw 7 TDs and 1 INT and we won 2 of those games. I think his completion perentage was rather high too. But he's objective. He said so himself.
Jesus Christ.
Dep, you're the one being the dick here. You're the one trying to expose Les and your method isn't reflecting well on you. Like KWall said in some other argument that digressed similarly, clean up your act.
Just wanted to continue the quote train.
Your contributions are always appreciated.
Thanks!
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Well how many of Eli's playoff wins were on the road? How many of them were we the underdogs?
I'm willing to beat there were quite a few in comparison, would you not agree?
I don't really honestly know -- I'm sure the Ravens had a few more road playoff games, and they probably were considered underdogs in some, but looking back through Vegas archives isn't appealing. But what would be the point? Have we decided that road playoff victories are a demonstrably better barometer of a QB's worth than things like putting together a few 12+ win seasons?
It just seems like we're scrambling to come up with measures that place Eli ahead of a guy like Flacco. When you do that, the measures themselves tend to be flawed.
Are you seriously implying that winning a playoff game on the road is not harder then winning them at home? You don't think there is an advantage having a home playoff?
This is all getting a bit off point, which is ultimately just this: it's not some egregious insult to Eli to say that Flacco should or will be paid more.
Dude...
You started it, and you should be able to see that, unless Les' first post saying Eli doesn't deserve more than a bunch of QB's can be constituted as "flying insults at you." And given how defensive you get on the subject, maybe you *do* see that as a personal insult.