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Bobby Hart

DaShotel13 : 8/20/2015 10:54 am
From Jordan Raanan's article today:

"• Rookie right tackle Bobby Hart continues to impress. He handled defensive end Owa Odighizuwa's bull rush during 1-on-1s with relative ease and was strong in live drills."

He's been mentioned positively a few times recently (MacAdoo, Reese) but both saying he had some obvious things to grow into (physically, mentally).

I didn't see the game last weekend, do any of the OL geeks have an quick analysis from him last week? Could he make a positive impact as early as this year?
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I was kind of surprised...  
Dan in the Springs : 8/20/2015 11:41 am : link
because there hasn't been any criticism of Flowers that I've seen on this board or elsewhere for his play on Saturday, but I came away more concerned with his play on Eli's blind side than with Newhouse's. I worry about how he'd do against a guy like Gregory in Dallas. Speed rushers with a good bend might be eating Flowers alive in a few weeks.
Thanks  
DaShotel13 : 8/20/2015 11:43 am : link
Dan, Ryan, Jay, et al thanks for the analysis

It seems every year I hold out hope that we hit on one of these late round OL "projects". It would make just a huge difference for our season

It started later than usual but I'm starting to get amped up finally for the season to start...
From what I've seen and read, I think Flowers is going to be fine.  
Victor in CT : 8/20/2015 11:44 am : link
Sure, he'll have his rookie "moments", but he is a football player.
Ryan posted comments similar to my own  
JonC : 8/20/2015 11:44 am : link
If Hart can generate the movement in the run I believe he can, he'll look and sound more like a RG on paper. But, if he can improve the lateral movements and keep getting reps and growing, we might have a RT in the making.

Flowers will be fine.
or  
Headhunter : 8/20/2015 11:45 am : link
Flowers may do to Gregory what he did to Moore
Here's some notes on Flowers  
Dan in the Springs : 8/20/2015 11:47 am : link
Drive one:
1st - run engaged LB drove back great looking
2nd - swing pass kept DE in front of him quick pass no serious rush faced.
3rd - speed rusher bent easily free Flowers beat but quick release by Eli so no pressure.
I'm surprised Hart is getting so much work at RT  
GiantsFan84 : 8/20/2015 11:47 am : link
instead of RG. When they drafted him I thought the plan was to develop him at G.
The 49'ers started  
Headhunter : 8/20/2015 11:49 am : link
Upati & Davis as rookies. I get that they were both #1 picks and Hart is a 7th, but..........
RE: I rewatched the game last night...  
Disgruntled NYGfan : 8/20/2015 11:51 am : link
In comment 12427181 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
and really focused on line play. Here's what I noticed about Hart.

He's built powerfully down low, and if you are squared up on him you aren't going to bull rush him. Furthermore he's capable of getting some push as well. He had some trouble with lateral movement and iirc there was a guy who used a spin move on him pretty effectively.

As an aside, for all the crap the right side of the starting line took, it was Flowers who troubled me the most. He was beat with speed a few times, including a pass rush where he somehow got away with a serious hold. He may be the LT of the future, but right now he's going to need more help blocking on his side than most of us would like.


It's pretty impressive for a 21 year old to have that much strength. Hopefully, he's disciplined and the nuances of how to deal with certain rush moves can be taught.

Dallas went through some growing pains the year they started two rookie tackles, but at this point, with Beatty out for several weeks and Newhouse's issues, I am not averse to putting Hart in there just because he's a rookie.

Someone else here raised the issue that Newhouse is still practicing with the 1s, but I'll keep my fingers crossed that Hart overtakes him. There will be growing pains this year with Flowers, but if we can even put together a line that is league average or even just slightly below average, we should be able to at least partially compensate with the skill position talent we have. What really helped a fairly weak OL last year was Eli getting the ball out quickly. Think we will have more of the same.
It appears Hart's ideal position is RG  
Jay on the Island : 8/20/2015 11:51 am : link
but the coaches obviously like him enough that he has spent the majority of his time at RT which is a great sign. The Giants now have 4 young promising OL in Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, and Hart. Now let's hope all four continue to develop and solidify the line for the next 8 years.
Drive two  
Dan in the Springs : 8/20/2015 11:52 am : link
1st snap - run behind Flowers - double team pancakes end Flowers peels off nicely to second level
2nd - pass drop back - engaged rusher nicely, RB double-team sends DE to the ground. Nice play.
3rd - speed rush outside gets beyond Flowers easily DE doesn't bend well and is too deep. Flowers didn't appear to move feet well here. No pressure as ball was released immediately.
Bobby Hart turns 21  
Headhunter : 8/20/2015 11:52 am : link
tommorow
like  
Les in TO : 8/20/2015 11:54 am : link
what I am hearing about hart and gettis.
IMO  
Jay on the Island : 8/20/2015 11:54 am : link
Hart will see a lot of time this season in goal line packages. He may even get some time as a TE if the current trio is not getting the job done as in line blockers.
RE: Bobby Hart turns 21  
Jay on the Island : 8/20/2015 11:54 am : link
In comment 12427314 Headhunter said:
Quote:
tommorow

Sorry I was off by a day.
There are a lot of comments on lots of threads about being surprised  
BeerFridge : 8/20/2015 11:56 am : link
about players getting time at RT, RG, LG.

The Giants have to re shuffle their depth chart and need backups and options at RG and RT that they didn't think they needed on April 30. In a season where Beatty is out for 10 games or so and Schwarz is still Schwarz, they need to try everyone at all the open spots and see what combination provides the best potential to start at multiple spots.

Hart is still probably best at Guard. But the Giants need as many options at RT as they can get right now. It's not crazy to give him time at RT and see what he's like at this level. Not this year.
Jay  
Headhunter : 8/20/2015 11:58 am : link
I wasn't fact checking you, I was curious and i looked it up on the giggle
Drive three...  
Dan in the Springs : 8/20/2015 12:04 pm : link
1st - squares his man up and is in his backstep when a push sets him off balance. DE is already at QB depth and is free of Flowers has a free shot at Eli but two things happen - Eli dumps off quickly to Jennings and Flowers grabs face mask.
2nd - run play to Jennings, but Flowers takes a pass-block stance against DE who makes a pass rush move toward Eli. He easily is around Flowers and would have had an easy sack had this been a passing play. Flowers didn't just throw him aside and go downfield - he's still trying to block him (here's where I think he was lucky not to get a holding penalty).
3rd - Standard pass rush blocked very effectively. DE gets nowhere going against Flowers here.
4th - pass rush stopped initially but inside spin move seems like it might have been effective. Not sure because quick release dump off to the RB.
Drive four./..  
Dan in the Springs : 8/20/2015 12:18 pm : link
1st - run behind Pugh. Flowers wants to push his man upfield but turns too quickly and the block is ineffective. Impact negated because Williams is absolutely crushed by Sims at the LOS, but Flowers' man is in pursuit on the backside.
2nd - screen to Williams blocked okay cut from behind by Bengals defender on ground.
3rd - draw play DE rushes upfield Flowers stays with him fine no pressure nice block.
4th - short pass to TE Flowers man must be tired he makes no attempt to rush the passer almost like a zone defender. Flowers mirrors well but no contact.
5th - run away from Flowers hard to see the initial action but it appears well blocked by Flowers.
Hart can impress all he wants  
SHO'NUFF : 8/20/2015 12:28 pm : link
Coughlin and Flaherty will always go with experience. Even if the vet is a broken down shadow of himself.
Drive five...  
Dan in the Springs : 8/20/2015 12:36 pm : link
1st - run play over RT cutback inside. Flowers driven backward toward action puts man on ground. Not sure how to evaluate this play - DE helps clog the cutback lane but ends up on the ground and is not a part of the tackle.
2nd - First long pass attempt downfield (Washington drop). Flowers nice setup as rusher is engaged in good position. DE twists around Flowers fairly easily and is getting too close to Eli as the ball is released.
3rd - running play away from Flowers - nice block.
4th - play-action naked bootleg. Nassib fake handoff to Flowers' side, sold well to DE, RB chips end, well blocked.
5th - power run right side. Here was see Flowers' strength - bullies DE before passing off to LG then takes on LB downfield with nice follow up block, continues with play to the end of a nice run.
6th - pass play Fells chips DE effectively leaving Flowers nobody to block, helps Pugh a little.
7th - run left, Flowers man gets upfield quickly appears to possibly disrupt play a little, run is ineffective as blocking along the line breaks down.
8th - run left Flowers excellent block. stacks DE and doesn't release RB gets first down at goal line.
9th - TD run - another difficult play to evaluate - DE is driven to the ground (+) but directly in the running lane making Darkwa leap early (-).
My overall impressions of Flowers from the game...  
Dan in the Springs : 8/20/2015 12:41 pm : link
There's a lot to like - he's not just a pretender. Makes plenty of plays. Having said that, he's not an island yet. It seems the Giants were aware of that early on as they planned for him to get help and wanted to get the ball off quickly. As the game went on he became independent and effective. Not sure if the defensive talent was inferior but it appeared that Flowers was winning most of his matchups as the game went along, and appeared he could be beat earlier. Pretty sure he wouldn't be beating out Beatty for the starting LT spot if WB were healthy and competing for the position.

There are times he looked vulnerable to a speed guy with good bend, but then again so do most tackles in the league. I'm not trying to knock Flowers, but just balance some of the criticism the right side has received while the left appears to have none.
Dan  
Headhunter : 8/20/2015 12:44 pm : link
great job, I love it when opinions are backed up with documentation of any sort. Really to be commended
Yes thanks Dan  
Jay on the Island : 8/20/2015 12:47 pm : link
great job.
This is the kind of discussion I love.  
Dan in the Springs : 8/20/2015 12:51 pm : link
I have some notes on Hart too - will try to post later.

Having said that - I'm really just an amateur and I'm sure guys on here will look at plays I've noted and tell me how I'm wrong. Hoping to learn from that kind of wisdom.
Dan  
Headhunter : 8/20/2015 12:54 pm : link
you have 0 to apologize for. This is how to make and prove a point. so what if someone else interprets a play differently?
It absolutely blows me away....  
damdevs : 8/20/2015 12:56 pm : link
how many of you guys actually watch college football?

This kid has been the starting RT at FSU since he was 17. Do any of you realize(I know some do on the board) that this is one of top 5-10 programs in the country talent wise?

The kid can flat out play and all I see is mostly shock that the kid can hold is own at RT or he's a natural G? Is there any shock that the kid is more than holding his own at a position he's played for the last 4 years and played at a high level even winning a NC.....come on folks it's not that hard!

Better yet Pugh gets some reps at LT and he excels too. He only started LT for 3 years at SU what the F do you expect? People make this shit more complicated than it needs to be...even the damn coaches.

Don't be shocked if Hart works his way into the lineup and is there for a long time.
Looking forward to Reese trying to sneak him on the practice squad...  
sb from NYT Forum : 8/20/2015 12:58 pm : link
...so they can keep some POS veteran on the roster, and then he gets signed by someone else.
RE: It absolutely blows me away....  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/20/2015 1:59 pm : link
In comment 12427482 damdevs said:
Quote:
how many of you guys actually watch college football?

This kid has been the starting RT at FSU since he was 17. Do any of you realize(I know some do on the board) that this is one of top 5-10 programs in the country talent wise?

The kid can flat out play and all I see is mostly shock that the kid can hold is own at RT or he's a natural G? Is there any shock that the kid is more than holding his own at a position he's played for the last 4 years and played at a high level even winning a NC.....come on folks it's not that hard!

Better yet Pugh gets some reps at LT and he excels too. He only started LT for 3 years at SU what the F do you expect? People make this shit more complicated than it needs to be...even the damn coaches.

Don't be shocked if Hart works his way into the lineup and is there for a long time.



You're kind of oversimplifying it. Just because a pick was a college starter at a big program doesn't mean he can play at this level.

Mosley was the starting left tackle for Auburn in the SEC. What has that amounted to? The NFL is littered with guys who may have been good college players who failed to translate to the NFL for some reason or another.
Hart  
Percy : 8/20/2015 2:29 pm : link
News sounds basically good -- unusually so. Glad to hear it.
RE: Dan  
Jay on the Island : 8/20/2015 2:34 pm : link
In comment 12427474 Headhunter said:
Quote:
you have 0 to apologize for. This is how to make and prove a point. so what if someone else interprets a play differently?

+1
Damdevs  
Jay on the Island : 8/20/2015 2:38 pm : link
It's not that simple. I am well aware of the fact FSU is a big program but honestly prior to the draft I do not remember reading a single scouting report or anything on Hart. The scouting report on him made him sound like an unathletic long shot who might become a backup guard. Now I honestly rarely if ever watch college football because I work on saturdays and I don't really have time.
HH  
Jay on the Island : 8/20/2015 2:40 pm : link
I know you weren't fact checking me. I saw my post and it came across wrong. No worries.
It's been since David Diehl  
K-Gun? Pop-Gun : 8/20/2015 2:41 pm : link
That a 4th-7th round OL has produced.

'Bout time.
TTH on target  
JonC : 8/20/2015 2:42 pm : link
Dan, thanks for posting your notes on EF. For his first pro start at LT, he looked pretty good overall, and as you said he grew series by series and is a very promising anchor.

Watching him play with assertive force, and running downfield to the next levels of the defense (as were Pugh and Richburg) had me shouting at the TV.
Jay  
Headhunter : 8/20/2015 2:42 pm : link
we are cool, no problemo
Hart was out there as a mid to late round RG/RT draft prospect  
Torrag : 8/20/2015 2:49 pm : link
He's not very quick/nimble. He's in the Herman/Petrus mold, strong but stiff. He has had the advantage of amassing extensive experience playing RT at the highest level of college competition. Technically he's far more advanced than those two were coming out. His 'toolbox' is similar.

It would be a nice return to form if we've managed to pluck an offensive lineman with starting potential with a non premium draft pick. It's been a while. I doubt he's a factor as a starter this season barring further injury or the complete failure of the Schwartz/Newhouse/Jerry combination on the right side.
RE: Hart was out there as a mid to late round RG/RT draft prospect  
Jay on the Island : 8/20/2015 2:59 pm : link
In comment 12427712 Torrag said:
Quote:
He's not very quick/nimble. He's in the Herman/Petrus mold, strong but stiff. He has had the advantage of amassing extensive experience playing RT at the highest level of college competition. Technically he's far more advanced than those two were coming out. His 'toolbox' is similar.

It would be a nice return to form if we've managed to pluck an offensive lineman with starting potential with a non premium draft pick. It's been a while. I doubt he's a factor as a starter this season barring further injury or the complete failure of the Schwartz/Newhouse/Jerry combination on the right side.

Hart is a different prospect that Petrus and Herman. Petrus was more athletic but not very strong and he didn't have great technique. Herman dominated a low level of competition but he obviously doesn't have the talent to play in the NFL. Hart is very strong has a lot of experience playing for a major program and he has decent technique for a young player. He isn't as athletic as Petrus though.
Jay  
Torrag : 8/20/2015 3:03 pm : link
Petrus put up more weight than anyone at the combine. Strength was his game. Frankly tour whole post is off base in every way.
draft tracker also projected him as a right guard.  
Ira : 8/20/2015 3:13 pm : link
The problem is, with Pugh at lg, we're desperate for a rt.
I think Hart is an interesting one  
Matt M. : 8/20/2015 3:34 pm : link
made more interesting by the current options at RG and RT. I wouldn't mind seeing him play more snaps earlier in the game.
RE: Jay  
Jay on the Island : 8/20/2015 3:41 pm : link
In comment 12427734 Torrag said:
Quote:
Petrus put up more weight than anyone at the combine. Strength was his game. Frankly tour whole post is off base in every way.

Dude yes I know his weight room strength was impressive but it didn't translate to the field. He had trouble anchoring against bigger DT's.
My whole post was way off base?  
Jay on the Island : 8/20/2015 3:44 pm : link
What the part about Herman not being an NFL caliber OL. Anyone who has watched him play knows this. It is his 3rd year and he is still getting beat by 2nd and 3rd teamers in games.
Flowers wasn't very good.  
area junc : 8/20/2015 3:47 pm : link
I love the guy's skillset and believe he will be a dominant player but you can't watch that tape and say he played well. He was slow off the ball, didn't do much in the run game and was beaten a few times in pass pro in just the first quarter. Also committed a penalty. it was a rough start, to be expected
This thread made me curious, so I looked at Bobby Hart's  
Ira : 8/20/2015 5:03 pm : link
Draft Breakdown page which I linked below. I watched the first (of five) video against Oklahoma State. He played right tackle in college. Most nfl right tackles played left tackle in college and from this tape it was easy to see why. He did get beat several times in pass protection.
Link - ( New Window )
Bobby Hart  
shyster : 8/20/2015 8:08 pm : link
If you check out the notes from Hart's bio page at the FSU site, his grading improved significantly over the course of the 2014 season: "graded out to an average of 73 this season...dominant down the stretch for the Noles, with an average grade of 84 over the last four games, including a team-best 89 at Miami against his hometown Hurricanes...tied for team-high with a grade of 90 in the ACC Championship Game [against Georgia Tech]."

The Oklahoma State game was the first game of the season. I'm sure his less impressive performances earlier in the year were one of the reasons he lasted until 7th round. But what matters is the player we have now. FSU does not hand out grades of 89-90 like candy.

He still has a lot to show, of course. But he has impressed Reese, the most important audience.


Link - ( New Window )
Halfway thrust the season  
Earl the goat : 8/20/2015 8:43 pm : link
Bobby Hart will be either starting RG or RT
RE: Bobby Hart  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/20/2015 10:58 pm : link
In comment 12428161 shyster said:
Quote:
If you check out the notes from Hart's bio page at the FSU site, his grading improved significantly over the course of the 2014 season: "graded out to an average of 73 this season...dominant down the stretch for the Noles, with an average grade of 84 over the last four games, including a team-best 89 at Miami against his hometown Hurricanes...tied for team-high with a grade of 90 in the ACC Championship Game [against Georgia Tech]."

The Oklahoma State game was the first game of the season. I'm sure his less impressive performances earlier in the year were one of the reasons he lasted until 7th round. But what matters is the player we have now. FSU does not hand out grades of 89-90 like candy.

He still has a lot to show, of course. But he has impressed Reese, the most important audience.
Link - ( New Window )


If there's one thing to hang your hat on, it seems like that FSU offensive line flew well under the radar for the draft. The Center, Stork, is doing really well for New England and got the starting job despite being a 4th rounder last year.
RE: Halfway thrust the season  
SGMen : 8/21/2015 9:14 am : link
In comment 12428209 Earl the goat said:
Quote:
Bobby Hart will be either starting RG or RT
I would love for him to play the first two or so quarters of pre-season game 2 and 3 to see what we have. In truth, he may "look good" in practice and all but he is 21, has limited experience as a rookie, and needs time against real players to develop his skills.

My prayer is he works out along with Pugh at OG, Flowers at LT and Richburg at OC - all young guys with upside. If Hart is a true starter as a 7th round pick well maybe we hit the jackpot! I hope so.

But when is the last time you saw two rookies starting on an OL and that OL flourishing? One rookie, sure. Two rookies, yikes!

Real games require experience.

Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Schwarz-Newhouse - this will be the opening day lineup, barring injury. Another possibility is Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Schwarz with Jerry being the second year veteran OG in this offense and Schwarz viewed as a bigger upgrade at RT than RG.

Hard to say but I think we need to see what happens in game 2 of pre-season.
RE: My overall impressions of Flowers from the game...  
Joey in VA : 8/21/2015 9:18 am : link
In comment 12427415 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
There's a lot to like - he's not just a pretender. Makes plenty of plays. Having said that, he's not an island yet. It seems the Giants were aware of that early on as they planned for him to get help and wanted to get the ball off quickly. As the game went on he became independent and effective. Not sure if the defensive talent was inferior but it appeared that Flowers was winning most of his matchups as the game went along, and appeared he could be beat earlier. Pretty sure he wouldn't be beating out Beatty for the starting LT spot if WB were healthy and competing for the position.

There are times he looked vulnerable to a speed guy with good bend, but then again so do most tackles in the league. I'm not trying to knock Flowers, but just balance some of the criticism the right side has received while the left appears to have none.
Well done sir, and I agree overall. I'm a huge fan of Flowers, I think he's going to be great but not yet. He did have his shaky moments that you pointed out and those are a bit troubling but he did improve drive to drive technique wise. It was very up and down for him, anyone saying otherwise really didn't pay attention.
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