Bobby Hart

and really focused on line play. Here's what I noticed about Hart.

He's built powerfully down low, and if you are squared up on him you aren't going to bull rush him. Furthermore he's capable of getting some push as well. He had some trouble with lateral movement and iirc there was a guy who used a spin move on him pretty effectively.

As an aside, for all the crap the right side of the starting line took, it was Flowers who troubled me the most. He was beat with speed a few times, including a pass rush where he somehow got away with a serious hold. He may be the LT of the future, but right now he's going to need more help blocking on his side than most of us would like.

Power and strength in his base was very evident. A couple of times guys got into his chest and he still anchored easily. When his hands hit the mark he generally controlled his guy.

That being said he looked stiff and heavy legged in his pass sets although after a few reps it seemed to improve some. I'd like to see him face some legit NFL speed off the edge and see his footwork stressed both off the ball and mirroring. Gun to my head I'd bet there would be a lot of bending and grabbing.

No chance to see him run block - I think we threw it every time he was in.

a couple nice hit songs in the 60s with Tommy Boyce.

In comment 12427181 Dan in the Springs said:

Quote:

and really focused on line play. Here's what I noticed about Hart. He's built powerfully down low, and if you are squared up on him you aren't going to bull rush him. Furthermore he's capable of getting some push as well. He had some trouble with lateral movement and iirc there was a guy who used a spin move on him pretty effectively. As an aside, for all the crap the right side of the starting line took, it was Flowers who troubled me the most. He was beat with speed a few times, including a pass rush where he somehow got away with a serious hold. He may be the LT of the future, but right now he's going to need more help blocking on his side than most of us would like.

Dan, re Flowers, I think most of us expected this to be quite a process..As to Hart? Maybe he proves to be one of those Diehl type diamond's in the rough?

Hart came in earlier too. And then he went back out.

We need to sure this line up.

look at the drive right before halftime. There are several plays where Hart comes in at RT and Mosley shifts over to RG. Both players did a very good job on that drive especially during Cunningham's reception. I thought Hart did a very good job for the most part as he looked better than I expected. His feet were as advertised but you have to love his size and reach. He is powerful for his age and with time he should develop into a very good RG and he may even be able to start at RT. He has been one of the biggest surprises of training camp and it is incredible to think that he turns 21 on Friday.

against legit starters, we just don't know....

If you continue to see Jerry and Newhouse with the first team, you will know what the coaches think of the backups...

It's been a while. I think Diehl might have been the last one that we drafted late in the draft.

against an experienced, productive OL from a program like FSU.

In comment 12427203 Doomster said:

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against legit starters, we just don't know.... If you continue to see Jerry and Newhouse with the first team, you will know what the coaches think of the backups...

I think it is extremely unfair to judge a rookie 7th round pick OL potential on his spot on the depth chart this early. Hart isn't even 21 yet and he has a lot to learn still. Do you think Coughlin would feel comfortable starting two rookie 21 year old OT's on opening day?

base as others have noticed. Did well against second stringers, which is all you can ask at this point. It says something that the Giants are giving him snaps at RT when they said he'd be a guard. Maybe they are rethinking they're position on that issue. I think he's on the 53.

To get playing time with the 1s at some point this camp.

In comment 12427225 AcidTest said:

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base as others have noticed. Did well against second stringers, which is all you can ask at this point. It says something that the Giants are giving him snaps at RT when they said he'd be a guard. Maybe they are rethinking they're position on that issue. I think he's on the 53.

At this point I think it would be a huge shock if he isn't on the 53 man roster. The fact that he can play both guard and tackle make him a very valuable backup.

In comment 12427191 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 12427181 Dan in the Springs said: Quote: and really focused on line play. Here's what I noticed about Hart. He's built powerfully down low, and if you are squared up on him you aren't going to bull rush him. Furthermore he's capable of getting some push as well. He had some trouble with lateral movement and iirc there was a guy who used a spin move on him pretty effectively. As an aside, for all the crap the right side of the starting line took, it was Flowers who troubled me the most. He was beat with speed a few times, including a pass rush where he somehow got away with a serious hold. He may be the LT of the future, but right now he's going to need more help blocking on his side than most of us would like. Dan, re Flowers, I think most of us expected this to be quite a process..As to Hart? Maybe he proves to be one of those Diehl type diamond's in the rough?

There really are not too many Tackles that were selected high, started at LT from game 1 and were super successful over the last 10 years. Joe Thomas was the exception and there are a few others.

Tyron Smith didn't even play LT until his second year. Flowers is certainly going to have his moments, unfortunately. We just have to live with them and hope that the lumps he takes help develop him into a very good starter for years to come.

if we don't run a draw, you may see a TE staying in next to Flowers and perhaps some guard help too. And that will be fine. For a while.

practice squadding him. with our depth, i think he makes it.

.

but I respectfully disagree

moves and such if there is a strong RG next to him. The TE can help to the outside. He is a mountain of a man, and has a nasty streak too.

because there hasn't been any criticism of Flowers that I've seen on this board or elsewhere for his play on Saturday, but I came away more concerned with his play on Eli's blind side than with Newhouse's. I worry about how he'd do against a guy like Gregory in Dallas. Speed rushers with a good bend might be eating Flowers alive in a few weeks.

Dan, Ryan, Jay, et al thanks for the analysis

It seems every year I hold out hope that we hit on one of these late round OL "projects". It would make just a huge difference for our season

It started later than usual but I'm starting to get amped up finally for the season to start...

Sure, he'll have his rookie "moments", but he is a football player.

If Hart can generate the movement in the run I believe he can, he'll look and sound more like a RG on paper. But, if he can improve the lateral movements and keep getting reps and growing, we might have a RT in the making.

Flowers will be fine.

Flowers may do to Gregory what he did to Moore

Drive one:
1st - run engaged LB drove back great looking
2nd - swing pass kept DE in front of him quick pass no serious rush faced.
3rd - speed rusher bent easily free Flowers beat but quick release by Eli so no pressure.

instead of RG. When they drafted him I thought the plan was to develop him at G.

Upati & Davis as rookies. I get that they were both #1 picks and Hart is a 7th, but..........

In comment 12427181 Dan in the Springs said:

Quote:

and really focused on line play. Here's what I noticed about Hart. He's built powerfully down low, and if you are squared up on him you aren't going to bull rush him. Furthermore he's capable of getting some push as well. He had some trouble with lateral movement and iirc there was a guy who used a spin move on him pretty effectively. As an aside, for all the crap the right side of the starting line took, it was Flowers who troubled me the most. He was beat with speed a few times, including a pass rush where he somehow got away with a serious hold. He may be the LT of the future, but right now he's going to need more help blocking on his side than most of us would like.

It's pretty impressive for a 21 year old to have that much strength. Hopefully, he's disciplined and the nuances of how to deal with certain rush moves can be taught.

Dallas went through some growing pains the year they started two rookie tackles, but at this point, with Beatty out for several weeks and Newhouse's issues, I am not averse to putting Hart in there just because he's a rookie.

Someone else here raised the issue that Newhouse is still practicing with the 1s, but I'll keep my fingers crossed that Hart overtakes him. There will be growing pains this year with Flowers, but if we can even put together a line that is league average or even just slightly below average, we should be able to at least partially compensate with the skill position talent we have. What really helped a fairly weak OL last year was Eli getting the ball out quickly. Think we will have more of the same.

but the coaches obviously like him enough that he has spent the majority of his time at RT which is a great sign. The Giants now have 4 young promising OL in Flowers, Pugh, Richburg, and Hart. Now let's hope all four continue to develop and solidify the line for the next 8 years.

1st snap - run behind Flowers - double team pancakes end Flowers peels off nicely to second level
2nd - pass drop back - engaged rusher nicely, RB double-team sends DE to the ground. Nice play.
3rd - speed rush outside gets beyond Flowers easily DE doesn't bend well and is too deep. Flowers didn't appear to move feet well here. No pressure as ball was released immediately.

tommorow

what I am hearing about hart and gettis.

Hart will see a lot of time this season in goal line packages. He may even get some time as a TE if the current trio is not getting the job done as in line blockers.

In comment 12427314 Headhunter said:

Quote:

tommorow

Sorry I was off by a day.

about players getting time at RT, RG, LG.

The Giants have to re shuffle their depth chart and need backups and options at RG and RT that they didn't think they needed on April 30. In a season where Beatty is out for 10 games or so and Schwarz is still Schwarz, they need to try everyone at all the open spots and see what combination provides the best potential to start at multiple spots.

Hart is still probably best at Guard. But the Giants need as many options at RT as they can get right now. It's not crazy to give him time at RT and see what he's like at this level. Not this year.

I wasn't fact checking you, I was curious and i looked it up on the giggle

1st - squares his man up and is in his backstep when a push sets him off balance. DE is already at QB depth and is free of Flowers has a free shot at Eli but two things happen - Eli dumps off quickly to Jennings and Flowers grabs face mask.
2nd - run play to Jennings, but Flowers takes a pass-block stance against DE who makes a pass rush move toward Eli. He easily is around Flowers and would have had an easy sack had this been a passing play. Flowers didn't just throw him aside and go downfield - he's still trying to block him (here's where I think he was lucky not to get a holding penalty).
3rd - Standard pass rush blocked very effectively. DE gets nowhere going against Flowers here.
4th - pass rush stopped initially but inside spin move seems like it might have been effective. Not sure because quick release dump off to the RB.

1st - run behind Pugh. Flowers wants to push his man upfield but turns too quickly and the block is ineffective. Impact negated because Williams is absolutely crushed by Sims at the LOS, but Flowers' man is in pursuit on the backside.
2nd - screen to Williams blocked okay cut from behind by Bengals defender on ground.
3rd - draw play DE rushes upfield Flowers stays with him fine no pressure nice block.
4th - short pass to TE Flowers man must be tired he makes no attempt to rush the passer almost like a zone defender. Flowers mirrors well but no contact.
5th - run away from Flowers hard to see the initial action but it appears well blocked by Flowers.

Coughlin and Flaherty will always go with experience. Even if the vet is a broken down shadow of himself.

1st - run play over RT cutback inside. Flowers driven backward toward action puts man on ground. Not sure how to evaluate this play - DE helps clog the cutback lane but ends up on the ground and is not a part of the tackle.
2nd - First long pass attempt downfield (Washington drop). Flowers nice setup as rusher is engaged in good position. DE twists around Flowers fairly easily and is getting too close to Eli as the ball is released.
3rd - running play away from Flowers - nice block.
4th - play-action naked bootleg. Nassib fake handoff to Flowers' side, sold well to DE, RB chips end, well blocked.
5th - power run right side. Here was see Flowers' strength - bullies DE before passing off to LG then takes on LB downfield with nice follow up block, continues with play to the end of a nice run.
6th - pass play Fells chips DE effectively leaving Flowers nobody to block, helps Pugh a little.
7th - run left, Flowers man gets upfield quickly appears to possibly disrupt play a little, run is ineffective as blocking along the line breaks down.
8th - run left Flowers excellent block. stacks DE and doesn't release RB gets first down at goal line.
9th - TD run - another difficult play to evaluate - DE is driven to the ground (+) but directly in the running lane making Darkwa leap early (-).

There's a lot to like - he's not just a pretender. Makes plenty of plays. Having said that, he's not an island yet. It seems the Giants were aware of that early on as they planned for him to get help and wanted to get the ball off quickly. As the game went on he became independent and effective. Not sure if the defensive talent was inferior but it appeared that Flowers was winning most of his matchups as the game went along, and appeared he could be beat earlier. Pretty sure he wouldn't be beating out Beatty for the starting LT spot if WB were healthy and competing for the position.

There are times he looked vulnerable to a speed guy with good bend, but then again so do most tackles in the league. I'm not trying to knock Flowers, but just balance some of the criticism the right side has received while the left appears to have none.

great job, I love it when opinions are backed up with documentation of any sort. Really to be commended

great job.

I have some notes on Hart too - will try to post later.

Having said that - I'm really just an amateur and I'm sure guys on here will look at plays I've noted and tell me how I'm wrong. Hoping to learn from that kind of wisdom.

you have 0 to apologize for. This is how to make and prove a point. so what if someone else interprets a play differently?

how many of you guys actually watch college football?

This kid has been the starting RT at FSU since he was 17. Do any of you realize(I know some do on the board) that this is one of top 5-10 programs in the country talent wise?

The kid can flat out play and all I see is mostly shock that the kid can hold is own at RT or he's a natural G? Is there any shock that the kid is more than holding his own at a position he's played for the last 4 years and played at a high level even winning a NC.....come on folks it's not that hard!

Better yet Pugh gets some reps at LT and he excels too. He only started LT for 3 years at SU what the F do you expect? People make this shit more complicated than it needs to be...even the damn coaches.

Don't be shocked if Hart works his way into the lineup and is there for a long time.

...so they can keep some POS veteran on the roster, and then he gets signed by someone else.

In comment 12427482 damdevs said:

Quote:

how many of you guys actually watch college football? This kid has been the starting RT at FSU since he was 17. Do any of you realize(I know some do on the board) that this is one of top 5-10 programs in the country talent wise? The kid can flat out play and all I see is mostly shock that the kid can hold is own at RT or he's a natural G? Is there any shock that the kid is more than holding his own at a position he's played for the last 4 years and played at a high level even winning a NC.....come on folks it's not that hard! Better yet Pugh gets some reps at LT and he excels too. He only started LT for 3 years at SU what the F do you expect? People make this shit more complicated than it needs to be...even the damn coaches. Don't be shocked if Hart works his way into the lineup and is there for a long time.

You're kind of oversimplifying it. Just because a pick was a college starter at a big program doesn't mean he can play at this level.

Mosley was the starting left tackle for Auburn in the SEC. What has that amounted to? The NFL is littered with guys who may have been good college players who failed to translate to the NFL for some reason or another.

News sounds basically good -- unusually so. Glad to hear it.

In comment 12427474 Headhunter said:

Quote:

you have 0 to apologize for. This is how to make and prove a point. so what if someone else interprets a play differently?

+1

It's not that simple. I am well aware of the fact FSU is a big program but honestly prior to the draft I do not remember reading a single scouting report or anything on Hart. The scouting report on him made him sound like an unathletic long shot who might become a backup guard. Now I honestly rarely if ever watch college football because I work on saturdays and I don't really have time.

I know you weren't fact checking me. I saw my post and it came across wrong. No worries.

That a 4th-7th round OL has produced.

'Bout time.

Dan, thanks for posting your notes on EF. For his first pro start at LT, he looked pretty good overall, and as you said he grew series by series and is a very promising anchor.

Watching him play with assertive force, and running downfield to the next levels of the defense (as were Pugh and Richburg) had me shouting at the TV.

we are cool, no problemo

He's not very quick/nimble. He's in the Herman/Petrus mold, strong but stiff. He has had the advantage of amassing extensive experience playing RT at the highest level of college competition. Technically he's far more advanced than those two were coming out. His 'toolbox' is similar.

It would be a nice return to form if we've managed to pluck an offensive lineman with starting potential with a non premium draft pick. It's been a while. I doubt he's a factor as a starter this season barring further injury or the complete failure of the Schwartz/Newhouse/Jerry combination on the right side.

In comment 12427712 Torrag said:

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He's not very quick/nimble. He's in the Herman/Petrus mold, strong but stiff. He has had the advantage of amassing extensive experience playing RT at the highest level of college competition. Technically he's far more advanced than those two were coming out. His 'toolbox' is similar. It would be a nice return to form if we've managed to pluck an offensive lineman with starting potential with a non premium draft pick. It's been a while. I doubt he's a factor as a starter this season barring further injury or the complete failure of the Schwartz/Newhouse/Jerry combination on the right side.

Hart is a different prospect that Petrus and Herman. Petrus was more athletic but not very strong and he didn't have great technique. Herman dominated a low level of competition but he obviously doesn't have the talent to play in the NFL. Hart is very strong has a lot of experience playing for a major program and he has decent technique for a young player. He isn't as athletic as Petrus though.

Petrus put up more weight than anyone at the combine. Strength was his game. Frankly tour whole post is off base in every way.

The problem is, with Pugh at lg, we're desperate for a rt.

made more interesting by the current options at RG and RT. I wouldn't mind seeing him play more snaps earlier in the game.

In comment 12427734 Torrag said:

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Petrus put up more weight than anyone at the combine. Strength was his game. Frankly tour whole post is off base in every way.

Dude yes I know his weight room strength was impressive but it didn't translate to the field. He had trouble anchoring against bigger DT's.

What the part about Herman not being an NFL caliber OL. Anyone who has watched him play knows this. It is his 3rd year and he is still getting beat by 2nd and 3rd teamers in games.

I love the guy's skillset and believe he will be a dominant player but you can't watch that tape and say he played well. He was slow off the ball, didn't do much in the run game and was beaten a few times in pass pro in just the first quarter. Also committed a penalty. it was a rough start, to be expected

Draft Breakdown page which I linked below. I watched the first (of five) video against Oklahoma State. He played right tackle in college. Most nfl right tackles played left tackle in college and from this tape it was easy to see why. He did get beat several times in pass protection.
Link - ( New Window )

If you check out the notes from Hart's bio page at the FSU site, his grading improved significantly over the course of the 2014 season: "graded out to an average of 73 this season...dominant down the stretch for the Noles, with an average grade of 84 over the last four games, including a team-best 89 at Miami against his hometown Hurricanes...tied for team-high with a grade of 90 in the ACC Championship Game [against Georgia Tech]."

The Oklahoma State game was the first game of the season. I'm sure his less impressive performances earlier in the year were one of the reasons he lasted until 7th round. But what matters is the player we have now. FSU does not hand out grades of 89-90 like candy.

He still has a lot to show, of course. But he has impressed Reese, the most important audience.


Link - ( New Window )

Bobby Hart will be either starting RG or RT

In comment 12428161 shyster said:

Quote:

If you check out the notes from Hart's bio page at the FSU site, his grading improved significantly over the course of the 2014 season: "graded out to an average of 73 this season...dominant down the stretch for the Noles, with an average grade of 84 over the last four games, including a team-best 89 at Miami against his hometown Hurricanes...tied for team-high with a grade of 90 in the ACC Championship Game [against Georgia Tech]." The Oklahoma State game was the first game of the season. I'm sure his less impressive performances earlier in the year were one of the reasons he lasted until 7th round. But what matters is the player we have now. FSU does not hand out grades of 89-90 like candy. He still has a lot to show, of course. But he has impressed Reese, the most important audience. Link - ( New Window )

If there's one thing to hang your hat on, it seems like that FSU offensive line flew well under the radar for the draft. The Center, Stork, is doing really well for New England and got the starting job despite being a 4th rounder last year.

In comment 12428209 Earl the goat said:

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Bobby Hart will be either starting RG or RT

I would love for him to play the first two or so quarters of pre-season game 2 and 3 to see what we have. In truth, he may "look good" in practice and all but he is 21, has limited experience as a rookie, and needs time against real players to develop his skills.

My prayer is he works out along with Pugh at OG, Flowers at LT and Richburg at OC - all young guys with upside. If Hart is a true starter as a 7th round pick well maybe we hit the jackpot! I hope so.

But when is the last time you saw two rookies starting on an OL and that OL flourishing? One rookie, sure. Two rookies, yikes!

Real games require experience.

Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Schwarz-Newhouse - this will be the opening day lineup, barring injury. Another possibility is Flowers-Pugh-Richburg-Jerry-Schwarz with Jerry being the second year veteran OG in this offense and Schwarz viewed as a bigger upgrade at RT than RG.

Hard to say but I think we need to see what happens in game 2 of pre-season.

In comment 12427415 Dan in the Springs said:

Quote:

There's a lot to like - he's not just a pretender. Makes plenty of plays. Having said that, he's not an island yet. It seems the Giants were aware of that early on as they planned for him to get help and wanted to get the ball off quickly. As the game went on he became independent and effective. Not sure if the defensive talent was inferior but it appeared that Flowers was winning most of his matchups as the game went along, and appeared he could be beat earlier. Pretty sure he wouldn't be beating out Beatty for the starting LT spot if WB were healthy and competing for the position. There are times he looked vulnerable to a speed guy with good bend, but then again so do most tackles in the league. I'm not trying to knock Flowers, but just balance some of the criticism the right side has received while the left appears to have none.

Well done sir, and I agree overall. I'm a huge fan of Flowers, I think he's going to be great but not yet. He did have his shaky moments that you pointed out and those are a bit troubling but he did improve drive to drive technique wise. It was very up and down for him, anyone saying otherwise really didn't pay attention.