Rock: Kuhn excited about Giants' improved run defense

duck for cover on this thread!

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but I read on BBI this Mr. Kuhn sucks...I wonder if he does or doesn't.

he doesn't stop moving his legs even when he's pushed ten yards down the field!

is getting dragged 10 yards downfield instead of last year's 15.

Kuhn even makes the team. I don't think they're going to keep 5 DT's, given all the DE's they have.

to be 320 pounds and play on roller skates when he sets up to anchor for the run.

than Jenkins, Hankins, Ellis and Bromley.

When the Bengals ran roughshod over our DL and LB's. Good. Great. Grand. When are we going to be done with this guy?

Frankie Ferrara keep coming to mind?

Barry Cofield was "handled", a couple of times, getting bodily picked up and thrown back. (I sat in the stands, thinking he had "no business" being on the field)

Then in one year, he found himself (which was a huge unexpected surprise to me) and signed a fat contract with the Skins.

Stranger things have happened. With Cofield I think it was about finally understanding what to do and perfecting his technique. Lets hope Kuhn can do the same.

and they ran right over him in Cincy. Rah rah is great but I hope this guy gets cut. I'd prefer Ellis and Bromley getting the important reps.

Hopefully he gets to watch the improved defense from the comfort of his sofa on sunday afternoons.

BEHIND the fuckin safety last game he was blown so far off the ball. He literally had to retreat out of engagement with an offensive lineman that he ended up as the last man in the middle of the field. Never seen anything like it.

for years to come.

it from his couch.

In comment 12428020 B in ALB said:

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BEHIND the fuckin safety last game he was blown so far off the ball. He literally had to retreat out of engagement with an offensive lineman that he ended up as the last man in the middle of the field. Never seen anything like it.

That play stood out to me as well. I've been hoping for something out of Kuhn, and he did get some double-team attention during the game, but to see him actually retreat and run around the pile like that to be the furthest defender from the line of scrimmage was something else, and I've since lost my optimism for his NFL future.

Yeah.

is marijuana now legal in Jersey?

Cofield being sent airborne by the Eagles is the most humiliating play I ever seen, personally.

On television, I remember the Giants' DT John LoVetere (who came over from the Rams for Rosey Grier) getting bodilly tossed almost into the stands !

infactuation with this guy. Everytime I watch him I want him cut. I hope I'm wrong but I think they really think he is good.

In comment 12428045 Bold Ruler said:

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Yeah.

We're discussing one player's performance Bold. He's not good.

Yeah.

If anything thinks Kuhn isn't getting keyed on by the offense I really don't know what to tell you.

I'd like to see the yards-per-rush when Kuhn was in the game.

To give up what. Over 200 yards and over 5 yards per rush is not good. But guaranteed Kuhn got exploited.

example of a five year development guy....Robinson as well.

Jay Bromley who I saw at Syracuse the two years before being drafted was our best player Saturday.He got hammered here last year....but now he looks like a guy you can get excited about. That's one year....not four!

and watch the Cincy game. Fans are prone to self fullfilling prophecies. If he played that poorly then by all means have at it, but there is also a witchhunt in pursuit of the right side of the Giants OL, spurned on by the results of the Cincy game...and by all accounts many assigned blame without evaluating the plays.

In comment 12428347 BSIMatt said:

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and watch the Cincy game. Fans are prone to self fullfilling prophecies. If he played that poorly then by all means have at it, but there is also a witchhunt in pursuit of the right side of the Giants OL, spurned on by the results of the Cincy game...and by all accounts many assigned blame without evaluating the plays.

That's a great idea. I'm going to rewatch the game right now and post my observations of Kuhn's play.

First Cincy drive:

1st snap - Kuhn appears to be the LDT can't tell what technique he has, quick pass Kuhn slams into the guard gets no pressure, neither does anyone else and the timing didn't really allow for much from the four-man rush. Having said that there doesn't appear to be an attempt to be "slippery" going after the QB, just a slam into the RG. Finally - good awareness by Kuhn to try to knock the ball down (only DL who did so).

2nd snap - watching condensed version on Game Pass and the stupid Cincy broadcasters didn't give us the full play from the snap due to their dumb graphic, but when they cut to the live action you can see that it's a run up the middle - right toward Kuhn. Hard to see him because the OL has him turned completely toward the sideline and is pushing him from behind. Kuhn has his back to the ballcarrier who is running through a whole at least two yards wide directly where Kuhn should have been lined up. Who's to blame for this horrible run defense? Probably the entire front seven to be sure, as nobody is anywhere near the RB until he's through the massive whole, but hard to not believe that Kuhn is primarily responsible as he's getting totally smashed and the run is directly to where he would have been lined up. The run goes for at least ten yards, by the way.

third snap - play-action pass. QB fakes handoff to RB who is running to his left and then spins back around to his right to pass downfield. Kuhn bites hardest on the play-action of all the DL. He's quicker than the OL so he's down furthest away from the QB. He might have been in a position to make the tackle on the RB however had it been a handoff because Ayers held his position at RDE very nicely and might have forced the RB to cut inside toward Kuhn. Anyway, another play where Kuhn is nowhere to be found near the real action.

fourth snap - Dalton drops back to pass. Kuhn slams into the RG and tries to bull rush his way into the backfield. RG holds his ground for a stalemate (which is actually a win for the RG) and Hankins wins his battle against the LG to pressure Dalton out of the pocket into a nice scramble for a few yards. Kuhn is no where near the ball on this play at any point.

fifth snap - second and four from inside the ten - run directly at Kuhn. Kuhn slams into the center at the snap and then is double-teamed by the RG. The center then peels off the double team and the RG is able to turn Kuhn (again) so that his back is to the RB, creating the hole through which the RB runs for a first down.

sixth snap (first and goal) Dalton drops back to pass, Kuhn slams into the RG, the Giants bring an extra couple of men, one of whom comes through unblocked but Dalton has already released the ball for a TD. Kuhn is turned by the RG away from the pocket, he's made no push and has no chance of putting any pressure on the QB here.

End of first drive. I'll review some more of the tape. Hoping to see something that demonstrates either some type of football instincts or the ability to win a one-on-one matchup. So far none of that is evident.

First snap - Cincy is lined up funny. It appears they have an imbalanced line. The TE is lined up with his hand in the dirt then the OT is next to the center snapping the ball. This means that there are three down linemen on the right side of the ball (Kuhn's side) as well as a TE, making 4 blockers not including the center on Kuhn's side of the LOS. As such, both Kuhn and Hankins are lined up on the defense's left of the center. At the snap, Kuhn slams head-on into the guard opposite him (second over from the center). This linemen holds his position against Kuhn and then the next OL on Kuhn's left engages Kuhn for what is effectively a half-second of double team. Kuhn is late to disengage from the first blocker, doesn't penetrate between the gap in the players, and is effectively blocked out of the play. Ayers and Selvie win their respective battles and force this running play into a loss.

second snap - Kuhn lines up directly over the center (Giants have five guys on the LOS, with one in a two-point stance at the left side of the defense). Dalton drops back to pass. Kuhn slams directly into the center at the snap and pushes him back a few yards. The center then stiffens and holds his ground against Kuhn, textbook pass protection for the center here. Kuhn realizes he is not getting any pressure on this rush attempt and tries to bat down the ball when it's released by the QB.

third snap - run directly up the middle - Kuhn's best play so far!!! He slams into the OL across from him where he's stood up (he's good at that), then recognizing the runner is coming through a hole to his right he is able to disengage just enough to make an attempt at an arm tackle as the runner is going by. Kuhn is effective at preventing a huge run here. The play "only" goes for four yards on first down.

fourth snap - QB drops back to pass, Kuhn slams into his guy and gets no movement whatsoever. As the backup QB feels pressure he runs to his right. Kuhn recognizes the scramble and releases to pursue. The QB is run out of bounds right at the yard mark (for a positive six-yard scramble). No question that this QB is athletic - he runs really well and Kuhn shows quickness in his pursuit, but not enough to force him out of bounds which happens by defenders arriving from the secondary.

Fifth snap - run right up the middle. Kuhn slams into his guy and is stood up. Beason penetrates the hole to Kuhn's left and stop the RB. Kuhn is unable to disengage from his blocker and ends up pancaked on this play. Kuhn is not a part of stopping the RB.

Kuhn is then removed from the game, and on the two snaps Kuhn doesn't play the DL dominates, first stopping a run for a loss and then sacking the QB.

Nothing here tells me that Kuhn is effective in any way on this drive.

first snap - Kuhn is back in at LDT and it's a passing play. He engages the RG at the snap. For the first time it looks like he's trying some pass rush move other than a bull rush. as he turns his shoulder and attacks the far shoulder of the RG - going for the gap between the RG and the C. He sort of makes some pressure - the RG is moving backwards and to his left and still has him engaged. Kuhn sees that he is not going to get to the QB and jumps to try and knock down the ball. Kuhn is definitely the best on the DL so far at recognizing the ball coming out of the QB's hand and attempting to knock down the ball.

second snap - run behind RT. Selvie is left unblocked away from the run and since Ayers holds up his end of the line the backside pursuit by Selvie is effective. The RB is shifty and ducks under Selvie's tackle attempt. Kuhn is the last to arrive and has a LB (55?) in front of him who again misses the tackle on the RB. The RB with literally no room to run on this play salvages a two yard gain from a certain loss by ducking under another tackle attempt and leaping forward. Kuhn really has no influence on this play.

third snap - pass attempt incomplete. Kuhn slams into the RG and is stoned, gets no push whatsoever even though the rest of the line is moving backwards. A quick release goes incomplete, although Kuhn again shows awareness of what's going on in the backfield, disengaging from the RG as the QB releases and beginning his pursuit of the receiver across the field.

fourth snap - passing situation - Kuhn is off the field. FWIW, Jenkins takes his spot, makes a nice spin move which creates pressure and forces the QB to scramble to his right. Odi shows good speed in pursuit and pushes the QB out of bounds.

Cincy's first punt of the game.

now in the second quarter.

first snap - deep inside their territory (on the eight) Cincy lines up in a jumbo (2TE) package with a single back. Pretty clear they're going to run the ball and they do. Wynn has now taken over for Ayers and is lined up on the left of Kuhn. Not sure what the running play was, the RB was headed straight toward the center on the handoff but there was nothing there so he cut it back outside toward Wynn. Interestingly Kuhn gets a double-team from the RG and RT leaving the TE to block Wynn on his own. What's interesting about that is that all three are blocking towards the center as though they are trying to open a running lane outside the RDE, but the RB does not run that direction initially. Anyway, Kuhn shows good strength against this double team, fighting them and keeping his ground. As the RB bounces to his left Wynn is able to shed the block of the TE and swallows the RB up at the LOS. Kuhn is able to shed the blocks of the double team but too late to make an impact in the running game, other than by taking on two defenders. Pretty impressive show of strength by Kuhn imo.

second snap - QB drops back to pass, Kuhn takes on the RG directly, gets no push and is chipped on two sides as the RB and H-Back release to his left and right. Kuhn again shows great awareness that the QB is releasing the ball and makes a swipe at it as it goes over his head. One of these times he's going to bat one down. It's pretty clear that Kuhn is not making any progress as a pass rusher and the coaches know this, as they take him out in obvious passing situations and have clearly coached him that his best bet when rushing the passer is to keep his head up, the man in front of him, and try to bat down the ball when it's thrown.

next snap is 3rd and 8, so Kuhn is out. FWIW, the Giants bring the heat blitzing two on this play. Odi is at LDE and gets a good push on the RT, forcing the QB to step up. The backup MLB (Uanga?) comes free on a slightly delayed blitz and gets to the QB, registering a hit as the ball is released. Nice pass rush.

first snap - Kuhn still getting all running-down reps at LDT as we near the half-way point of the second half. Kuhn gets double-teamed at the snap and is blown off his spot. The RB is headed right for that hole but Kennard? hits the hole, and Ellis does a really good job of coming off his block and filling the hole as well. The RB bounces outside and makes a nice run. Not sure how to evaluate Kuhn's play here - he is swallowed up in the run game by the double-team.

second snap - Kuhn is again attacked by double team (RT & RG) smashed to the ground but shows great strength in staying up on one knee to potentially get back in the play. The rest of the defense reads this run and easily bottles it up (Uanga in particular makes a nice read, penetrates the big hole next to Kuhn, gets in the backfield quickly and wraps up the RB). Now this play is one where Kuhn maybe deserves some credit. His drawing the double-team left a hole for the mike to run through. Not sure what he did to deserve such attention but his strength against that double-team is pretty incredible to see. This is one of those things that a good DT should be doing, imo, taking on blockers so that the LBers are free to make plays.

next snap is a quick out that goes for around 12 yards. On this play we see the first attempt by Kuhn at a stunt. He's not real effective at it - slow to get it going and he takes a real wide arc around the pocket attempting to get outside the tackle. He never gets close to the QB before the ball is released.

Next snap is a run to Kuhn's side of the LOS. The RG capably moves Kuhn far to the other side and keeps him engaged for the duration of the play. Kuhn is the last defender to shed his block, as all other linemen and backers are in pursuit he is barely getting off his block.

Really, really glad I watched this next snap (7:45 of the second quarter). This is the play I remembered being amazed at with Kuhn. Now on this play Kuhn actually does a lot of good, which I didn't catch the first time I watched him. First of all, he takes on both the center and the left guard at the LOS, and he is the guy who engages them both. Your remember the holding call against Keith Hamilton in the SB vs. the Ravens? Remember that Hammer was really pretty effective with those long, strong arms, at occupying two blockers simultaneously and generally wasn't called on that even though he did quite a bit of defensive holding? Well Kuhn's play on this snap was slightly reminiscent. He reaches out and grabs both linemen on their outside shoulder, effectively forcing them to both focus on him. This frees the LBers behind him to make plays. Very, very good play and Kuhn shows tremendous strength here to be able to do this. Also, it's pretty impressive that he's doing this after so many snaps in this game so far - he's not really on a rotation since there has only been a few obvious passing situations for the Bengals. Anyway, he does a good job of taking on the blockers. When the RB sneaks out of the backfield Kuhn then runs around the pile of players to meet up with the runner back by the safety (Jackson) and is helpful in ensuring the runner is tackled there.

Now I'm going to stop and make a personal confession here - this is the kind of play that with a quick glance looks like a ridiculous play by Kuhn, but with a closer look you can really see what the coaches must like about Kuhn. At this point I doubt he's going up against the first string OL but he is doing a good job being stout against the run. Furthermore I'll add that any characterization of him being on "roller-skates" or being driven backwards is incorrect and unfair. He is often swallowed up and is not regularly making any plays on the ball, but he is not being pushed around either. He holds his ground well, even against double-teams. He also has perhaps the one assignment on defense that is least likely to afford an opportunity to make a play - he's not asked to penetrate. He's asked to take on blockers and hold the line, which he mostly has done quite well.

On this particular play Kennard meets the lead blocker in the hole, and Uanga is in the backfield. It's clearly not Kuhn's fault that the run turns out the way it did. The LBers were there ready to make a play but the runner was shifty and they couldn't bring him down. Kuhn's getting back into the secondary after taking on that double-team is actually something to be impressed by, as many other defenders had a cleaner shot at the RB than he did and he didn't give up.

After this play Kuhn gets a well-deserved break in the action. I kind of wish they'd brought him back in on the goal-line run because he was clearly missed. In his place, Wynn took on a double-team and wasn't up to the task. He's driven backwards forcefully and ends up on his back in the end zone. Pretty sure that Kuhn does a better job in that situation of holding the line there, after all, Wynn is a DE and Kuhn is much bigger and stronger.

In all, apologies to Kuhn for being too quick to judge him. Watching the tape more closely has allowed me to view his performance differently and appreciate him more.

Thanks.

But without the echo!

thanks!

Jeez. He's terrible.

And that might be the best series of posts I've ever read.
Wow.....

I'm excited about Kuhn not being part of the defense.

In comment 12428020 B in ALB said:

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BEHIND the fuckin safety last game he was blown so far off the ball. He literally had to retreat out of engagement with an offensive lineman that he ended up as the last man in the middle of the field. Never seen anything like it.

lol.

in such detail, it is still very obvious that the guy isn't worth keeping around much longer. And for whatever reason, BBI's love affair with this pipe-dream 7th round pick will finally be over...thank god.

And shame on Newsday and Rock to even put together this story for the paper. "Improved run defense"??? The Bengals ran for 200+ last week I think.

I guess Kuhn & Newsday were excited it wasn't 300 yards.

except for one thing - I don't think there's any "love affair" with Kuhn on BBI. He's one of the players that most want to cut. The love affair is something the Giants coaches seem to have with him, and is somewhat of a mystery to many on BBI, myself included.

My work was based on not understanding or seeing any value whatsoever to Kuhn. What I came to appreciate was that he was do some things better than I'd previously noticed. That doesn't make him a pro-bowler or even someone who we should even have as a starter. Just helps a little to see what contributions the coaches might be happy with.

The BBI love affair would seem to be with Ellis over Kuhn in a landslide. Yet the coaches have Kuhn starting over Ellis.

Tonight will be interesting to see if that continues and how much play each get.

There were plenty of threads "praising" Kuhn when he played like 100+ snaps a few years back and registered an assist and a batted down pass (in total!). Many were suggesting he was a future starter at DT and a consistent lock to make roster year over year.

I do agree that it seems the love has calmed down on BBI as Kuhn has shown his true potential when given the chance.

Not sure why Coaches are not there yet. Is it possible the roster is even worse than we think it is?

In comment 12429882 Jimmy Googs said:

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There were plenty of threads "praising" Kuhn when he played like 100+ snaps a few years back and registered an assist and a batted down pass (in total!). Many were suggesting he was a future starter at DT and a consistent lock to make roster year over year. I do agree that it seems the love has calmed down on BBI as Kuhn has shown his true potential when given the chance. Not sure why Coaches are not there yet. Is it possible the roster is even worse than we think it is?

Guys like Kuhn (late round picks, developmental prospect with physical ability, make the 53, receive praise from coaches, get snaps early on) are always going to surprise fans and inspire hope. There isn't a lot of expectations from them early on, and when they exceed expectations initially the hope is there that the trend might continue. Clearly the ball is over for Kuhn and Cinderella's magic has worn off - only way to win over fans now is for the defense to stiffen when he's in the game.

something in Ellis.

His position on the depth chart is daunting and is a good indicator that this team has not yet figured out how to put players on the field that can consistently stop the run.

It sure as hell isn't improved with Kuhn in there.....

.

Miles, Thomas, Casillas, Wade, Gordy are not NFL caliber players. This team has managed to get worse since last year.

In comment 12430523 Joey in VA said:

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Miles, Thomas, Casillas, Wade, Gordy are not NFL caliber players. This team has managed to get worse since last year.

Disagree on Thomas and Casilias. Wade might surprise. Agree on Kuhn, Gordy and Miles.

How a guy who not only consistently gets no push, but consistently gets knocked off the ball continues to get playing time is beyond me.

This is why you want a new coaching staff. So that lack of talent guys who are playing because the coaches are comfortable with them get cleaned out with the coaching staff.

In comment 12430966 arniefez said:

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This is why you want a new coaching staff. So that lack of talent guys who are playing because the coaches are comfortable with them get cleaned out with the coaching staff.

That's a ridiculous statement. Diehl was a solid player at 3 positions on the OL. That he wasn't replaced was not due to overly loyal coaches but to lack of talent to replace him, which is the GMs job. Who was the great OT kept on the bench so Diehl could play?

I hate to be this way, but only an asshole would compare an anchor of 2 SB Championship OLs to a borderline PS olayer. JFC.