After criticizing Kuhn and generally feeling like he should be cut, I re-watched the first five drives of the Cincy game and came away with a different appreciation for what he brings to the Giants. Please keep in mind that he is a DT, not really a defensive playmaker as you watch him play. For my full notes on his play through those drives, check out the thread linked.
My review of Kuhn's play in Cincy game is at the end. - (
New Window )
1st snap - Kuhn appears to be the LDT can't tell what technique he has, quick pass Kuhn slams into the guard gets no pressure, neither does anyone else and the timing didn't really allow for much from the four-man rush. Having said that there doesn't appear to be an attempt to be "slippery" going after the QB, just a slam into the RG. Finally - good awareness by Kuhn to try to knock the ball down (only DL who did so).
2nd snap - watching condensed version on Game Pass and the stupid Cincy broadcasters didn't give us the full play from the snap due to their dumb graphic, but when they cut to the live action you can see that it's a run up the middle - right toward Kuhn. Hard to see him because the OL has him turned completely toward the sideline and is pushing him from behind. Kuhn has his back to the ballcarrier who is running through a whole at least two yards wide directly where Kuhn should have been lined up. Who's to blame for this horrible run defense? Probably the entire front seven to be sure, as nobody is anywhere near the RB until he's through the massive whole, but hard to not believe that Kuhn is primarily responsible as he's getting totally smashed and the run is directly to where he would have been lined up. The run goes for at least ten yards, by the way.
third snap - play-action pass. QB fakes handoff to RB who is running to his left and then spins back around to his right to pass downfield. Kuhn bites hardest on the play-action of all the DL. He's quicker than the OL so he's down furthest away from the QB. He might have been in a position to make the tackle on the RB however had it been a handoff because Ayers held his position at RDE very nicely and might have forced the RB to cut inside toward Kuhn. Anyway, another play where Kuhn is nowhere to be found near the real action.
fourth snap - Dalton drops back to pass. Kuhn slams into the RG and tries to bull rush his way into the backfield. RG holds his ground for a stalemate (which is actually a win for the RG) and Hankins wins his battle against the LG to pressure Dalton out of the pocket into a nice scramble for a few yards. Kuhn is no where near the ball on this play at any point.
fifth snap - second and four from inside the ten - run directly at Kuhn. Kuhn slams into the center at the snap and then is double-teamed by the RG. The center then peels off the double team and the RG is able to turn Kuhn (again) so that his back is to the RB, creating the hole through which the RB runs for a first down.
sixth snap (first and goal) Dalton drops back to pass, Kuhn slams into the RG, the Giants bring an extra couple of men, one of whom comes through unblocked but Dalton has already released the ball for a TD. Kuhn is turned by the RG away from the pocket, he's made no push and has no chance of putting any pressure on the QB here.
End of first drive. I'll review some more of the tape. Hoping to see something that demonstrates either some type of football instincts or the ability to win a one-on-one matchup. So far none of that is evident.
Cincy second drive...
First snap - Cincy is lined up funny. It appears they have an imbalanced line. The TE is lined up with his hand in the dirt then the OT is next to the center snapping the ball. This means that there are three down linemen on the right side of the ball (Kuhn's side) as well as a TE, making 4 blockers not including the center on Kuhn's side of the LOS. As such, both Kuhn and Hankins are lined up on the defense's left of the center. At the snap, Kuhn slams head-on into the guard opposite him (second over from the center). This linemen holds his position against Kuhn and then the next OL on Kuhn's left engages Kuhn for what is effectively a half-second of double team. Kuhn is late to disengage from the first blocker, doesn't penetrate between the gap in the players, and is effectively blocked out of the play. Ayers and Selvie win their respective battles and force this running play into a loss.
second snap - Kuhn lines up directly over the center (Giants have five guys on the LOS, with one in a two-point stance at the left side of the defense). Dalton drops back to pass. Kuhn slams directly into the center at the snap and pushes him back a few yards. The center then stiffens and holds his ground against Kuhn, textbook pass protection for the center here. Kuhn realizes he is not getting any pressure on this rush attempt and tries to bat down the ball when it's released by the QB.
third snap - run directly up the middle - Kuhn's best play so far!!! He slams into the OL across from him where he's stood up (he's good at that), then recognizing the runner is coming through a hole to his right he is able to disengage just enough to make an attempt at an arm tackle as the runner is going by. Kuhn is effective at preventing a huge run here. The play "only" goes for four yards on first down.
fourth snap - QB drops back to pass, Kuhn slams into his guy and gets no movement whatsoever. As the backup QB feels pressure he runs to his right. Kuhn recognizes the scramble and releases to pursue. The QB is run out of bounds right at the yard mark (for a positive six-yard scramble). No question that this QB is athletic - he runs really well and Kuhn shows quickness in his pursuit, but not enough to force him out of bounds which happens by defenders arriving from the secondary.
Fifth snap - run right up the middle. Kuhn slams into his guy and is stood up. Beason penetrates the hole to Kuhn's left and stop the RB. Kuhn is unable to disengage from his blocker and ends up pancaked on this play. Kuhn is not a part of stopping the RB.
Kuhn is then removed from the game, and on the two snaps Kuhn doesn't play the DL dominates, first stopping a run for a loss and then sacking the QB.
Nothing here tells me that Kuhn is effective in any way on this drive.
Cincy third drive...
first snap - Kuhn is back in at LDT and it's a passing play. He engages the RG at the snap. For the first time it looks like he's trying some pass rush move other than a bull rush. as he turns his shoulder and attacks the far shoulder of the RG - going for the gap between the RG and the C. He sort of makes some pressure - the RG is moving backwards and to his left and still has him engaged. Kuhn sees that he is not going to get to the QB and jumps to try and knock down the ball. Kuhn is definitely the best on the DL so far at recognizing the ball coming out of the QB's hand and attempting to knock down the ball.
second snap - run behind RT. Selvie is left unblocked away from the run and since Ayers holds up his end of the line the backside pursuit by Selvie is effective. The RB is shifty and ducks under Selvie's tackle attempt. Kuhn is the last to arrive and has a LB (55?) in front of him who again misses the tackle on the RB. The RB with literally no room to run on this play salvages a two yard gain from a certain loss by ducking under another tackle attempt and leaping forward. Kuhn really has no influence on this play.
third snap - pass attempt incomplete. Kuhn slams into the RG and is stoned, gets no push whatsoever even though the rest of the line is moving backwards. A quick release goes incomplete, although Kuhn again shows awareness of what's going on in the backfield, disengaging from the RG as the QB releases and beginning his pursuit of the receiver across the field.
fourth snap - passing situation - Kuhn is off the field. FWIW, Jenkins takes his spot, makes a nice spin move which creates pressure and forces the QB to scramble to his right. Odi shows good speed in pursuit and pushes the QB out of bounds.
Cincy's first punt of the game.
Cincy's fourth drive...now in the second quarter.
first snap - deep inside their territory (on the eight) Cincy lines up in a jumbo (2TE) package with a single back. Pretty clear they're going to run the ball and they do. Wynn has now taken over for Ayers and is lined up on the left of Kuhn. Not sure what the running play was, the RB was headed straight toward the center on the handoff but there was nothing there so he cut it back outside toward Wynn. Interestingly Kuhn gets a double-team from the RG and RT leaving the TE to block Wynn on his own. What's interesting about that is that all three are blocking towards the center as though they are trying to open a running lane outside the RDE, but the RB does not run that direction initially. Anyway, Kuhn shows good strength against this double team, fighting them and keeping his ground. As the RB bounces to his left Wynn is able to shed the block of the TE and swallows the RB up at the LOS. Kuhn is able to shed the blocks of the double team but too late to make an impact in the running game, other than by taking on two defenders. Pretty impressive show of strength by Kuhn imo.
second snap - QB drops back to pass, Kuhn takes on the RG directly, gets no push and is chipped on two sides as the RB and H-Back release to his left and right. Kuhn again shows great awareness that the QB is releasing the ball and makes a swipe at it as it goes over his head. One of these times he's going to bat one down. It's pretty clear that Kuhn is not making any progress as a pass rusher and the coaches know this, as they take him out in obvious passing situations and have clearly coached him that his best bet when rushing the passer is to keep his head up, the man in front of him, and try to bat down the ball when it's thrown.
next snap is 3rd and 8, so Kuhn is out. FWIW, the Giants bring the heat blitzing two on this play. Odi is at LDE and gets a good push on the RT, forcing the QB to step up. The backup MLB (Uanga?) comes free on a slightly delayed blitz and gets to the QB, registering a hit as the ball is released. Nice pass rush.
Cincy's fifth drive...
first snap - Kuhn still getting all running-down reps at LDT as we near the half-way point of the second half. Kuhn gets double-teamed at the snap and is blown off his spot. The RB is headed right for that hole but Kennard? hits the hole, and Ellis does a really good job of coming off his block and filling the hole as well. The RB bounces outside and makes a nice run. Not sure how to evaluate Kuhn's play here - he is swallowed up in the run game by the double-team.
second snap - Kuhn is again attacked by double team (RT & RG) smashed to the ground but shows great strength in staying up on one knee to potentially get back in the play. The rest of the defense reads this run and easily bottles it up (Uanga in particular makes a nice read, penetrates the big hole next to Kuhn, gets in the backfield quickly and wraps up the RB). Now this play is one where Kuhn maybe deserves some credit. His drawing the double-team left a hole for the mike to run through. Not sure what he did to deserve such attention but his strength against that double-team is pretty incredible to see. This is one of those things that a good DT should be doing, imo, taking on blockers so that the LBers are free to make plays.
next snap is a quick out that goes for around 12 yards. On this play we see the first attempt by Kuhn at a stunt. He's not real effective at it - slow to get it going and he takes a real wide arc around the pocket attempting to get outside the tackle. He never gets close to the QB before the ball is released.
Next snap is a run to Kuhn's side of the LOS. The RG capably moves Kuhn far to the other side and keeps him engaged for the duration of the play. Kuhn is the last defender to shed his block, as all other linemen and backers are in pursuit he is barely getting off his block.
Really, really glad I watched this next snap (7:45 of the second quarter). This is the play I remembered being amazed at with Kuhn. Now on this play Kuhn actually does a lot of good, which I didn't catch the first time I watched him. First of all, he takes on both the center and the left guard at the LOS, and he is the guy who engages them both. Your remember the holding call against Keith Hamilton in the SB vs. the Ravens? Remember that Hammer was really pretty effective with those long, strong arms, at occupying two blockers simultaneously and generally wasn't called on that even though he did quite a bit of defensive holding? Well Kuhn's play on this snap was slightly reminiscent. He reaches out and grabs both linemen on their outside shoulder, effectively forcing them to both focus on him. This frees the LBers behind him to make plays. Very, very good play and Kuhn shows tremendous strength here to be able to do this. Also, it's pretty impressive that he's doing this after so many snaps in this game so far - he's not really on a rotation since there has only been a few obvious passing situations for the Bengals. Anyway, he does a good job of taking on the blockers. When the RB sneaks out of the backfield Kuhn then runs around the pile of players to meet up with the runner back by the safety (Jackson) and is helpful in ensuring the runner is tackled there.
Now I'm going to stop and make a personal confession here - this is the kind of play that with a quick glance looks like a ridiculous play by Kuhn, but with a closer look you can really see what the coaches must like about Kuhn. At this point I doubt he's going up against the first string OL but he is doing a good job being stout against the run. Furthermore I'll add that any characterization of him being on "roller-skates" or being driven backwards is incorrect and unfair. He is often swallowed up and is not regularly making any plays on the ball, but he is not being pushed around either. He holds his ground well, even against double-teams. He also has perhaps the one assignment on defense that is least likely to afford an opportunity to make a play - he's not asked to penetrate. He's asked to take on blockers and hold the line, which he mostly has done quite well.
On this particular play Kennard meets the lead blocker in the hole, and Uanga is in the backfield. It's clearly not Kuhn's fault that the run turns out the way it did. The LBers were there ready to make a play but the runner was shifty and they couldn't bring him down. Kuhn's getting back into the secondary after taking on that double-team is actually something to be impressed by, as many other defenders had a cleaner shot at the RB than he did and he didn't give up.
After this play Kuhn gets a well-deserved break in the action. I kind of wish they'd brought him back in on the goal-line run because he was clearly missed. In his place, Wynn took on a double-team and wasn't up to the task. He's driven backwards forcefully and ends up on his back in the end zone. Pretty sure that Kuhn does a better job in that situation of holding the line there, after all, Wynn is a DE and Kuhn is much bigger and stronger.
In all, apologies to Kuhn for being too quick to judge him. Watching the tape more closely has allowed me to view his performance differently and appreciate him more.
DT you seem to be the one without a point. Opinions (mine or yours) are easy. I like real info. Posts above yours have it.
Have we lower our standards that much?
I do not expect a ton of stats if you are being double teamed.....but he must be an anchor...
Not a turnstile
But now I'd like to ask you to tell us, upon your rewatching those drives, what is "the different appreciation" you have "about what he brings to the Giants?"
I'd love to know THOSE new thoughts. Thanks.
Hope you are well and your summer a good one.
Question: what footage are you watching that enables these analyses? Is it some version of game footage that coaching staff uses, because it would be very painful to do this off your Time Warner/Cablevision TV feed.
Good stuff!
Thank you for the CLiff Notes version.
Kuhn blows. There is no way he should make the roster barring a wave of injury to the DTs.
Question: what footage are you watching that enables these analyses? Is it some version of game footage that coaching staff uses, because it would be very painful to do this off your Time Warner/Cablevision TV feed.
Good stuff!
More than likely NFL Gamepass that offers the full broadcast, a condensed version, and coaches tape.
re: a changed appreciation - as I watched Kuhn play I was struck with how many times he was taking on blocks and not being pushed backward but holding his point. I was also more aware of how often he demonstrated strength as multiple blockers were targeting him (or in the case of his last snap and perhaps others, he was targeting multiple blockers) and he was freeing up LBers and creating lanes for them to attack the offense. This was something I remember Keith Hamilton doing often and he was appreciated for it.
For a contrast watch Wynn (who is appreciated here very much as an end) try to hold up against two blockers at the goal line during the Bengals second TD near the end of the second quarter. You'll see him be crushed easily (he ends up on his back in the end zone). Then rewatch the tape of Kuhn and see how many times he is hit by two men and holds his point. Pretty impressive.
So I came to recognize that what Kuhn appears to be assigned to do is NOT penetrate and make plays, but to take on blockers, hold his point, and free up LBers to make plays. Bad plays when Kuhn are in the game may sometimes be the LBers fault.
Kuhn still has some flaws, as especially noted when he was up against the starters and his back gets turned by the OL, and his inability to generate any kind of pass rush, but he has good awareness of the QB and generally appears to be carrying out his assignment. It's not glamorous and as such, most football viewers aren't going to notice him doing anything special in the game.
Anyway, my apologies were to Kuhn, as I had previously named him as a player I was hoping to be cut, so it's okay if you disagree with me. I'm also just a casual fan still learning the game, so my opinion isn't worth anything to anybody but myself, but thanks for the compliments guys!
That's the conclusion I came to as well.
Look, the coaches like what they see in him. Following the Cincy game he remains a starter despite plenty of healthy options the fans clamor for (Ellis, Bromley for example). Ever wonder why?
Well done!
Two examples. First is Newhouse last week. People here crushed him for getting the screen pass blown up, but Eric showed in his analysis that it wasn't Newhouse's job to block that guy. Everyone just assumed it was because it happened on his side of the field. Another common example is people seem to blame the defensive back closest to a WR for everything, but many times its someone else's mistake and this closest guy is just trying to help out (you see this lots of time on TD passes).
Point is that everyone has a job, and its really hard to judge someone's performance unless you know what was supposed to happen. Like if an INT is due to the QB or WR? If as sack was due to the OL, or was he supposed to let him through and the RBpick him up?
Even going by the analysis you posted, Kuhn was ineffective until the fourth drive, at which point he was facing backups and the entirety of his contribution was pretty much "well, he occupys double-teams decently." He simply is not a good football player by any stretch of the imagination.
As far as why he's kept around.....why is Robinson? Why was Moss? Why was Danny Ware? Coughlin has pet players. Always has, always will.
Some here get caught up in what was instead of what has become of a player.
Even going by the analysis you posted, Kuhn was ineffective until the fourth drive, at which point he was facing backups and the entirety of his contribution was pretty much "well, he occupys double-teams decently." He simply is not a good football player by any stretch of the imagination.
As far as why he's kept around.....why is Robinson? Why was Moss? Why was Danny Ware? Coughlin has pet players. Always has, always will.
I appreciate the response Greg. Keep in mind as I wrote this review I was looking for evidence based on my initial mindset - Kuhn should be making plays and doesn't. So, for example, on the fifth snap of the first drive when he was double-teamed I wasn't appreciating that maybe he was doing his job well there. Another example is on the first and fifth snaps of the second drive.
I agree he's not Hamilton - Hammer was able to do damage in the run and passing game. I'm sure he'd be starting if he were on the team today.
The thing about Kuhn is that he's not effective really at all in the passing game, although I'll have to review the tape to see if he's opening holes for blitzers. The Giants didn't blitz much but when they did they mostly got pressure and forced bad things to happen, and perhaps Kuhn deserves some credit on some of those plays. Generally though he doesn't generate a rush, but he does keep his eye on the passer and is quick to release and pursue the QB if he scrambles.
Since Kuhn is ineffective against the pass, it might be a signal to other teams to pass when he's in the game. Basically he's one less rusher to worry about, as a single blocker can keep him occupied.
But it appears to me that Kuhn is much more effective against the run than I was giving him credit for, which was my point in making this thread.
He's a plugger. He's definitely got a strong base.
That much I like.
However, he gets his shoulders turned far too easily when the block comes from an angle. Once those shoulders are turned he's easily handled.
He's got that strong base, so I think they were hoping he could improve, but time has run out on him. By now, he should have developed into a gap plugger that occupies blockers without getting turned so easily. I think he'll be among the cut.
I'll give you credit, Dan. You spotted the fact that he's got a strong base and recognized what they want him to do.
But, he's not good enough at it. You only keep one trick ponies when they're damn good at their trick.
Even going by the analysis you posted, Kuhn was ineffective until the fourth drive, at which point he was facing backups and the entirety of his contribution was pretty much "well, he occupys double-teams decently." He simply is not a good football player by any stretch of the imagination.
As far as why he's kept around.....why is Robinson? Why was Moss? Why was Danny Ware? Coughlin has pet players. Always has, always will.
Great post Greg.
He's got a strong base. I didn't stutter.
Read the rest of what I wrote before you get lippy.
Kuhn still has some flaws, as especially noted when he was up against the starters and his back gets turned by the OL, and his inability to generate any kind of pass rush, but he has good awareness of the QB and generally appears to be carrying out his assignment. It's not glamorous and as such, most football viewers aren't going to notice him doing anything special in the game.
Well done, Dan
Quote:
So I came to recognize that what Kuhn appears to be assigned to do is NOT penetrate and make plays, but to take on blockers, hold his point, and free up LBers to make plays. Bad plays when Kuhn are in the game may sometimes be the LBers fault.
Kuhn still has some flaws, as especially noted when he was up against the starters and his back gets turned by the OL, and his inability to generate any kind of pass rush, but he has good awareness of the QB and generally appears to be carrying out his assignment. It's not glamorous and as such, most football viewers aren't going to notice him doing anything special in the game.
Well done, Dan
He's a plugger. He's definitely got a strong base.
That much I like.
However, he gets his shoulders turned far too easily when the block comes from an angle. Once those shoulders are turned he's easily handled.
He's got that strong base, so I think they were hoping he could improve, but time has run out on him. By now, he should have developed into a gap plugger that occupies blockers without getting turned so easily. I think he'll be among the cut.
I'll give you credit, Dan. You spotted the fact that he's got a strong base and recognized what they want him to do.
But, he's not good enough at it. You only keep one trick ponies when they're damn good at their trick.
Thanks fur taking the time to post your opinion dorgan, which I value more highly than my own. I totally agree with your assessment. It will be interesting to see if he continues to get starting reps on run downs.
Thanks again.
What you're missing Matt is that I was saying he was much more effective against the run than I was giving him credit for. My previous position was that Kuhn should be cut because he was totally ineffective against the run, but having viewed the tape I now see that he is only sometimes ineffective against the run. Other times he has completed his assignment effectively, although that generally tends to remain transparent.
Also, in my review of his play I didn't really see him getting knocked back at all. He tended to hold his ground pretty much, even when double-teamed at the point of attack. I did see him get turned, exactly as dorgan described. Clearly that's what they will want him to still be working on.
I think contact details for Kuhn's agent will remain in Jerry Reese's iPhone. How many DTs do the Giants lose to IR in a typical season?
If Kuhn is doing his job and Newhouse is doing his job... and the Giants finish under.500 again, what does that say about the Giants?
I can see why they kept him to this point, but he's not what they hoped he'd become.
I haven't seen enough of Newhouse to have formed much of an opinion. He's not as bad as initial reports, so I'd lean toward keeping him at this point. We're so freaking thin on the OL, he'll probably stick.
I can see why they kept him to this point, but he's not what they hoped he'd become.
I haven't seen enough of Newhouse to have formed much of an opinion. He's not as bad as initial reports, so I'd lean toward keeping him at this point. We're so freaking thin on the OL, he'll probably stick.
If he was going to own that spot he'd have to probably double that. Bromley's emergence is really huge for this team.
BTW, great job Dan.