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Schwartz: Why Titanic Visions of Giants Season Are Overblown

gidiefor : Mod : 8/25/2015 8:50 am
for all you hand wringers
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gidiefor  
Headhunter : 8/25/2015 8:55 am : link
I am patiently waiting for you to set these nervous Nellies straight with a couple of classic gidiefor threads.
Headhunter  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/25/2015 8:57 am : link
LoL -- don't worry -- I will strike when the TimE IS RighT!
I know that, I'm counting on it  
Headhunter : 8/25/2015 9:02 am : link
a preseason beauty before the Jet game on Saturday will do this board good and get you in shape for the season ahead. I need gidiefor juice!
Schwartz  
Tony in Tampa : 8/25/2015 9:02 am : link
"...these are not the droids you are looking for"
.  
BrettNYG10 : 8/25/2015 9:12 am : link
Quote:
I need gidiefor juice!


media will always perpetuate doom and gloom and drama  
djm : 8/25/2015 9:17 am : link
and fans eat that shit up.

Talk to me in November. I'm not ready to put this team in the NFC title game just yet but I have no doubts this team will compete this season. We won't be 3-9 by the time December rolls around. I'd bet that the Giants still have meaningful games late in the year. I love where the offense is at.

To me this is a huge two week period. We have to get the secondary at least somewhat ironed out. Guys that are coming back to practice need to stay there. Big week. The rest of the team really looks ok to me. Hopefully Beason is ready to go by week 1 but if it's McClain manning the middle for a few weeks so be it. Not ideal but not the end of the world.

I'm not really counting on JPP and Beatty but something tells me both players will play important roles on this team later on. They are good veterans that could ward off disaster later this year.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 9:23 am : link
I'm legitimately concerned about the defense. I think we're going to have problems again.

I am not nearly as worried about the OL or the offense as most, though. I think the unit on the whole will be above average and on the cusp of top 10.
agree about the D to an extend  
djm : 8/25/2015 9:39 am : link
it's gonna be a work in progress, especially early on. New system, etc..

The O has to play well early on and carry this team a bit. And I think the Giants need to steal one of those two games early on. That close game we didn't get in 2013-2014? We need that one this year. It won't break the season but it could make it.

Gotta steal a tough one early...catch a fucking break for once and build on it.
steal one of those tough games early on  
djm : 8/25/2015 9:39 am : link
NOT TWO...

I don't entirely agree with some of that stuff. There's some legit  
Curtis in VA : 8/25/2015 9:47 am : link
concern there.

Quote:
Until the Giants put Victor Cruz, Rueben Randle and Odell Beckham Jr. on the field together, the consternation about what thus far has been a lame passing attack should be muted. There is no reason to believe Randle (knee) and Cruz (calf) will have to sit out once the real games get under way. “There was so much speculation going in about having these people work together,’’ Coughlin said. “We haven’t really seen them work together yet and we’re this far into camp, so … ’’ So we wait, and then watch.


We don't even know if Cruz will be able to play all season. Optimism is fine but he just had major surgery, and hasn't played yet. You can't mute that. He's looked good in camp but there's a big difference between camp and the regular season.

Quote:
Eli Manning has been remarkably ineffective (completing 36.4 percent of his passes), but the Giants are not considering skipping one of his starts and hoping Ryan Nassib, in finest Logan Verrett fashion, will step in to keep Eli’s pitch-count down.


This is a valid point and I agree. Eli will be fine. But most people aren't worried about Eli. He was fine last year when they went 6-11. He needs help.


Quote:
The loss of Jackson for a second consecutive season is a terrible blow to a 23-year-old Jersey guy who cannot catch a break. But his absence should not be equated to the loss of Ronnie Lott or even Antrel Rolle. Jackson has never played a snap in the NFL and was a sixth-round draft pick. A safety rotation of Landon Collins, Nat Berhe, Brandon Meriweather and Jeromy Miles or Cooper Taylor might not be awful, as long as Berhe snaps out of his injury funk, Collins is the real deal as a rookie and Meriweather has something left in the tank and refrains from head-hunting.


Eh, we don't know if Collins is the real deal or not. He hasn't played enough to know anything. Valid questions still surround his ability to play the pass. Jackson's loss should not be considered significant only because his presence wasn't significant to begin with. There's a hole (whole lot of unproven) next to Collins. How do we know Behre will snap out of his injury funk? This is the most injured team in the league. Speaking of injuries, hey Cooper. Also, he brings up the fact that Jackson was a six round pick as if, big deal - no big loss. Well Behre was a fifth round pick and hasn't shown anything yet.

There is a big hole here. Questions surrounding it are not overblown at all. Basically no one knows anything about anyone here because none of these guys can stay healthy enough to show it yet.


Quote:
Lost in the passing game malaise is the fact the pass protection provided by the starting group has been pretty darn solid. And there should not be any more hand-wringing about rookie Ereck Flowers forced to play left tackle in place of injured Will Beatty. Flowers is legit. “I don’t think we missed a beat with him,’’ center Weston Richburg said.


I would say they've been adequate. Newhouse and Jerry are adequate. The running game seems to be improving. The line isn't the disaster it was last season so there's that.

Quote:
Two-game targets for Odell Beckham Jr.: seven. Receptions: zero. Beckham preseason targets, 2014: zero. Beckham preseason receptions, 2014: zero. Appropriate level of concern: 2.7 percent.


I'm not worried about Beckham but this is silly anyway. There's a huge difference between being in a game and dropping passes this year as opposed to being injured and not having the option in the 2014 preseason. There is such a thing as the sophomore slump. I'm sure he will have a great career but he might be in for some growing pains this season. Its a legitimate concern but not one to blow out of proportion. Not yet anyway.

Quote:

Sure, Jason Pierre-Paul is not around — although he figures to arrive soon, as his mangled right hand is nearly two months into the healing process. But it is not as if the Giants will fail to field a defensive line without him. There’s … um … and … uh … well, nope, can’t do it. Maybe Damontre Moore will have 10 sacks and Owa Odighizuwa will be a rookie revelation, but in the here and now, there sure looks to be a huge problem. Unless JPP comes back as JPP, circa 2011.


There is potential here but the loss of JPP as both a pass rusher and run defender is a big deal, especially with a new defense that everyone is learning.


....  
BrettNYG10 : 8/25/2015 9:51 am : link
I think the loss of JPP is underestimated by many. I don't see how he's effective until at least ten games into the season, if at all. He looks to have lost significant muscle mass in recent pictures, and needs to adjust to playing with one less finger.

This team lacks sufficient plus players on defense to overcome the question marks at LB, DE, and S. JPP was flawed, but definitely a plus player.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 8/25/2015 9:52 am : link
With that said, I think we have an easier schedule this year. And I think the offense could be the best of Eli's career. I'm cautiously optimistic on this season.
I ONLY worry about "the last two years" type  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2015 9:57 am : link
injuries..If we're on par with the rest of the league injury-wise, we'll compete strongly imo, notwithstanding the existing flaws. And oh btw, the majority of teams, this side of Seattle and possibly Baltimore are pretty much in the same boat as we are Defensively..

The question then is, do we have the O firepower to strongly compete in this, an almost totally Offensive league?

Yes, I do..
RE: I ONLY worry about  
Curtis in VA : 8/25/2015 9:59 am : link
In comment 12434479 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
injuries..If we're on par with the rest of the league injury-wise, we'll compete strongly imo, notwithstanding the existing flaws. And oh btw, the majority of teams, this side of Seattle and possibly Baltimore are pretty much in the same boat as we are Defensively..

The question then is, do we have the O firepower to strongly compete in this, an almost totally Offensive league?

Yes, I do..


Maybe I'm missing your point with the injuries but this season is shaping up much like the last two as a whole. In fact, if I remember correctly - the Giants were one of the healthiest teams in the league when the season started. Then after a few weeks in the season, players started dropping like flies. So this doesn't really bode well for the next 16 weeks or so.
I was referring to last season when they were healthy to start.  
Curtis in VA : 8/25/2015 10:00 am : link
.
They should come out no huddle from play 1 in Dallas  
Headhunter : 8/25/2015 10:01 am : link
and don't stop doing it till after they hoist the SB trophy in February
Eli looks determined - he's focused  
mattlawson : 8/25/2015 10:02 am : link
I don't see a lot of the ho hum that he's often known for. He has a confidence in his manner I haven't seen in a few years. That doesn't excuse not executing the plays the other day but I do think the offense will be fine. The OL allowed no real pressure, ball was getting out, WRs had opportunities to make plays. The RBs got the ball on checkdowns on time, and the Giants were able to move the ball. It will get ironed out over the first couple of reg season games.

Curtis,  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2015 10:05 am : link
my distinction thus far(compared to the whole of last year) is that these injuries are pretty much what other teams have..SO FAR..The debilitating injuries to key starters and some of their backups from last year don't appear to be major..That can change as you know..

I don't like losing some of the players we've lost, But I still feel, after it all shakes out, we'll be good to go..Fingers crossed..
RE: .  
Mike in Long Beach : 8/25/2015 10:05 am : link
In comment 12434403 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I'm legitimately concerned about the defense. I think we're going to have problems again.

I am not nearly as worried about the OL or the offense as most, though. I think the unit on the whole will be above average and on the cusp of top 10.


This mostly sums up how I feel. We have tremendous depth at the skill positions. We're a little thin on the OL but certainly improved from last year's unit. Eli is Eli.

I actually do like much of our starting defense (especially if JPP somehow rounds into form), but the problem is we have some of the worst depth in the league. The starting corners are very good. The backup corners are unproven liabilities. The starting linebackers are very solid. The backups are not NFL players, IMO. Up front, Ayers, Wynn, Moore and Odighuzuwa is just not good enough without JPP. The starting tackles look solid, but once again... no depth.

The safeties as we all are know are in disastrous shape.

Once again, as I thought last year, Jon Beason is the most important player on the Giants roster not named Eli Manning. If he can have the tremendous impact in run defense that he had two years ago, our lack of depth across the board is in a much better position to stay unexposed against one-dimensional offenses.

But if teams can run and pass with equal success, I don't think we have the talent to stay above the bottom third in the league defensively, and that will make us an 8-8 football team at best (once again).
I feel good about this season  
Go Terps : 8/25/2015 10:06 am : link
Significant changes have been made in areas of weakness. Yeah the defense is uncertain, but that's only because we haven't seen this group really play yet. The defense has been horrible since 2008... I'm happy to see new faces everywhere. It can't be worse than it's been.

The talent pipeline has been restarted after a serious interruption from 2008-2012. It's probably still too early to expect a title run, but I'd be shocked if Coughlin has another poor team.

Anywhere from 7-9 to 11-5. As ever the four games against Dallas and Philly should probably tell the tale.
JPP reads this and sighs "I wish I could cross my fingers"  
Headhunter : 8/25/2015 10:12 am : link
I don't like losing some of the players we've lost, But I still feel, after it all shakes out, we'll be good to go..Fingers crossed..
RE: JPP reads this and sighs  
Victor in CT : 8/25/2015 10:33 am : link
In comment 12434528 Headhunter said:
Quote:
I don't like losing some of the players we've lost, But I still feel, after it all shakes out, we'll be good to go..Fingers crossed..


Spit out my coffee!! FUNNY!!!
there  
Les in TO : 8/25/2015 10:44 am : link
are a lot of question marks, but the key will be can we stay healthy? if we can end up in the top ten in least number of missed games due to injury instead of the bottom again, then I think we can be competitive on a weekly basis, and moreso as the season goes on due to the new defense which will likely experience some growing pains.
RE: I feel good about this season  
an_idol_mind : 8/25/2015 10:47 am : link
In comment 12434509 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Significant changes have been made in areas of weakness. Yeah the defense is uncertain, but that's only because we haven't seen this group really play yet. The defense has been horrible since 2008... I'm happy to see new faces everywhere. It can't be worse than it's been.

The talent pipeline has been restarted after a serious interruption from 2008-2012. It's probably still too early to expect a title run, but I'd be shocked if Coughlin has another poor team.

Anywhere from 7-9 to 11-5. As ever the four games against Dallas and Philly should probably tell the tale.


I would agree with this. As bad as last year was, there were signs that the team wasn't that far off from being more competitive.

One big thing these guys need to do is figure out how to win close games again. Games decided by one score or less made the difference between 6-10 and 10-6 last year.
Lack of talent was the difference between 6-10 and 10-6 last year.  
Victor in CT : 8/25/2015 10:53 am : link
Let's not fool ourselves. They were a 6-10 team going in.
Only bad things happen in pre-season  
oldutican : 8/25/2015 11:15 am : link
and it really hasn't been that bad so far.
RE: ....  
RinR : 8/25/2015 11:32 am : link
In comment 12434467 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
I think the loss of JPP is underestimated by many.


Couldn't agree more with this. The defense is not better with him not on the field and I have very low expectations we will see him at all this year. Hope he proves me wrong.
The defense was awful with JPP on it  
Go Terps : 8/25/2015 11:40 am : link
And he was likely en route to a terrible season anyway, missing the entire offseason under a new defensive coordinator.

The Giants have conceded 24.5 points per game the last two seasons. Why are we worried about widespread change on that side of the ball?
RE: RE: I feel good about this season  
ColHowPepper : 8/25/2015 11:44 am : link
In comment 12434629 an_idol_mind said:
Quote:
In comment 12434509 Go Terps said:
Significant changes have been made in areas of weakness. Yeah the defense is uncertain, It can't be worse than it's been....

[Then an_idol_mind says:]
I would agree with this. As bad as last year was, there were signs that the team wasn't that far off from being more competitive.


I don't know if I agree with GT:
- JPP absent, for all or good part (we know how Terps feels here!! (:
- Safety: as poorly as I thought Rolle played in 2014, we have nothing but ???. I do expect good things from Collins (if not, we're really screwed), but the rest are an injury prone, untested group, except for Miles, who to my eye looked awful Saturday night
- CBs: paper thin and Prince can't stay on the field
- LBs: this may be an improved position over 2014, but if Beason is Beason (unavailable) and McClain (no mobility) is McClain, we have Kennard, JT Thomas and someone else, still ??
DL - see JPP; I don't have much confidence in DM or JB; I'd like to see Ellis get a lot more PT with the 1s/2s vs. the Jets. DL can surprise or disappoint, unless TC insists on going with Kuhn, which is unfathomable.

If competitive means the D keeps it close for 2.5 quarters before wilting in the middle of the field, I guess we'll be competitive. A lot of "show me" mode
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 11:52 am : link
Terps.. because I'm not buying the mindset that it "can only be better" when it may well be just as bad.

New system, the personnel is still not there in my opinion.. injuries. I think this defense could be every bit as bad this year as it was in 2014. DB depth is paper thin, Beason is not going to survive 16 games, JPP is a loss no matter how little faith you may have had in him this year.

Here's what I like about the defense.. I think there's solid depth up front, I like JT Thomas, Kennard and Beason and I think we have 2 very good starting CB's in Prince/DRC. I also think Collins is going to be good. The problem? If Prince or DRC go down, we are in big trouble. Ditto the linebackers. Ditto the safeties (they're already all injured for the most part)

I just don't think the depth is there and more injuries are inevitably going to occur. It's just the nature of the sport.
It comes down to winning close games..  
Sean : 8/25/2015 12:10 pm : link
2011 could have easily been a 5-11 season just like last year could have easily been a 10-6 season. We all love to get all worked up, but the modern day NFL is a bunch of mediocre teams separated by a few bounces. Just looking at these games last season- ARI, SF, DAL, @JAX. Those were all coin flip games.
I don't see DB as thin, just unproven  
Go Terps : 8/25/2015 12:17 pm : link
In 2007 our secondary was Aaron Ross, Sam Madison, Corey Webster, Gibril Wilson, James Butler, and Michael Johnson. Only proven guy there was Madison, and he was well past his prime.

The secondary is unproven, but that's better than having been proven to be poor. And even if the defense is bad, the offense figures to be better this year than last.

The line between good and bad is paper thin. If you trust in the coach and the quarterback there is more reason for optimism than not. You don't need to be all that good to go 10-6 in today's NFL. Hell you don't even need to be that good to win the Super Bowl. We should know after 2011.
I'm actually fine with the starting WRs  
David B. : 8/25/2015 1:29 pm : link
sitting out all the preseason games.
RE: I don't see DB as thin, just unproven  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 2:05 pm : link
In comment 12434803 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In 2007 our secondary was Aaron Ross, Sam Madison, Corey Webster, Gibril Wilson, James Butler, and Michael Johnson. Only proven guy there was Madison, and he was well past his prime.

The secondary is unproven, but that's better than having been proven to be poor. And even if the defense is bad, the offense figures to be better this year than last.

The line between good and bad is paper thin. If you trust in the coach and the quarterback there is more reason for optimism than not. You don't need to be all that good to go 10-6 in today's NFL. Hell you don't even need to be that good to win the Super Bowl. We should know after 2011.


In some respects the secondary was unproven, but Wilson had flashed and played well for us, Ross was a 1st round pick and Webster a 2nd. The same way we are projecting Collins to help, we were able to sort of do that with Ross and Webster (though it took Webster a little while to round out)

Behind DRC and Prince the CB situation is murky at best. I like McBride but between guys getting hurt and where they came from I just don't know how much faith I have. Brown played well at times last year. Wade has been sort of boom or bust so far. Fenner? Eh. And the safeties are just dropping like flies.

Hopefully we can put a competitive unit out there this year I just have some doubts.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 8/25/2015 3:32 pm : link
The 2007 defense had a handful of elite players - Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Robbins, Pierce - that covered for the question marks. The Giants don't have a lot of Pro Bowl caliber players to cover for the warts - Hankins and DRC are probably the only ones, with Prince close at this point.

I disagree with the idea that JPP would have had a terrible season if healthy. And yes, we can be terrible with or without him, but it's better for him to be the team than off it IMV - with that said, I'm in agreement that those dollars could be better utilized, but that wasn't really an option this off-season. Losing one of the plus players on defense is concerning when there are so few of them. The defense still lacks talent, and there's quite a bit that has to go right on defense for it to be even average IMO.
pessimism is the rational outlook given recent history  
chris r : 8/25/2015 3:33 pm : link
and the fact that a bad defense lost its best player.
We're right where we want to be.  
Crispino : 8/25/2015 9:01 pm : link
Doom and gloom, low expectations, early pessimism. Always works best for us.
RE: It comes down to winning close games..  
Mark C : 8/25/2015 11:32 pm : link
In comment 12434792 Sean said:
Quote:
2011 could have easily been a 5-11 season just like last year could have easily been a 10-6 season. We all love to get all worked up, but the modern day NFL is a bunch of mediocre teams separated by a few bounces. Just looking at these games last season- ARI, SF, DAL, @JAX. Those were all coin flip games.


No, they weren't coin flip games. They were "If the defense can get a stop in the fourth quarter we can win this game" games. How many times did the Giants blow second half leads last season because they had absolutely no answer on defense?
Why Titanic Visions of Giants Season Are Overblown  
johnboyw : 8/26/2015 7:29 am : link
Schwartz is right on this subject. Giants fans should not be expecting anything great this year (again). This team is not ready for prime time or anything even close to that. This is a team that is loaded with question marks and now (once again) injuries. A team that is still trying to figure out who they are and what they have. And as Schwartz notes, a team where you still get the same rhetoric from the GM and HC about what they have and what they can do regardless of what is actually happening.
The Giants are still trying to put the right pieces in the right places. Many of these guys have never played together before. You have overrated veterans, untested rookies, second tier free agents and draft picks who haven't developed who are trying to make it work collectively. You even have a player with just nine fingers. That's a bad recipe. This team is still very much a work in progress and not a playoff caliber team by any means.
As far as positional issues are concerned, there are a number of them. Safety is a train wreck. Letting Rolle, Brown and Demps all walk is not looking very prudent now. When you start bringing in D III players (all due respect as I was once one of those), you know you are in trouble.
Linebacker is also a mess. A pedestrian group at this point and surprise! Beason is hurt again. How can any astute GM expect his defense to hold up with an aging, oft-injured and undersized MLB at the helm? The guy can simply not be depended on. Shame on Reese for not fixing this problem. The guy apparently thinks you play D with only two players-ends and cornerbacks. Without the nine fingered wizard, the only lock on the DL is Hankins. The rest are question marks at this point.
On the other side, so far Manning looks as sleepy as ever. I say time to give Nassib a real chance. He has leadership qualities that Manning woefully lacks. The RBs look pretty good and, if they can all get healthy, so do the WRs. TE looks OK and Cunningham might give them a new weapon in the passing game if he makes it. Question is will Reese be willing to finally admit that the JPP of TEs was actually an error in judgment on his part and let him go? The line is still very much a work in progress. Schwartz needs to toughen up and start playing and they need to find a real RT. That player may not be on the roster yet. I still say Mosley should be given a real shot there.
Long and short of it, I see another long year with nothing happening after Christmas. Either 6-10 again or maybe 7-9 if they catch a break or two. That's it.
Dude, you were doings fine until you suggested Nassib over....  
Crispino : 8/26/2015 7:57 am : link
Eli because, well, for any reason. Please. Eli threw for 30 TD's , 4,400 yards at a 63% clip last year. That was with Beckham for only 3/4 of the season, no Cruz, no running game. If the team has a bleak outlook, the QB position is the least of our worries. Lack of leadership? That's just wrong.
RE: Why Titanic Visions of Giants Season Are Overblown  
aquidneck : 8/26/2015 8:28 am : link
In comment 12435961 johnboyw said:
Quote:
Schwartz is right on this subject. Giants fans should not be expecting anything great this year (again). This team is not ready for prime time or anything even close to that. This is a team that is loaded with question marks and now (once again) injuries. A team that is still trying to figure out who they are and what they have. And as Schwartz notes, a team where you still get the same rhetoric from the GM and HC about what they have and what they can do regardless of what is actually happening.
The Giants are still trying to put the right pieces in the right places. Many of these guys have never played together before. You have overrated veterans, untested rookies, second tier free agents and draft picks who haven't developed who are trying to make it work collectively. You even have a player with just nine fingers. That's a bad recipe. This team is still very much a work in progress and not a playoff caliber team by any means.
As far as positional issues are concerned, there are a number of them. Safety is a train wreck. Letting Rolle, Brown and Demps all walk is not looking very prudent now. When you start bringing in D III players (all due respect as I was once one of those), you know you are in trouble.
Linebacker is also a mess. A pedestrian group at this point and surprise! Beason is hurt again. How can any astute GM expect his defense to hold up with an aging, oft-injured and undersized MLB at the helm? The guy can simply not be depended on. Shame on Reese for not fixing this problem. The guy apparently thinks you play D with only two players-ends and cornerbacks. Without the nine fingered wizard, the only lock on the DL is Hankins. The rest are question marks at this point.
On the other side, so far Manning looks as sleepy as ever. I say time to give Nassib a real chance. He has leadership qualities that Manning woefully lacks. The RBs look pretty good and, if they can all get healthy, so do the WRs. TE looks OK and Cunningham might give them a new weapon in the passing game if he makes it. Question is will Reese be willing to finally admit that the JPP of TEs was actually an error in judgment on his part and let him go? The line is still very much a work in progress. Schwartz needs to toughen up and start playing and they need to find a real RT. That player may not be on the roster yet. I still say Mosley should be given a real shot there.
Long and short of it, I see another long year with nothing happening after Christmas. Either 6-10 again or maybe 7-9 if they catch a break or two. That's it.


So, you are putting g the over/under at 6 1/2 games?

I'd bet the over. Anything is possible, obviously. A crash 'n burn 2-14 season. A Super Bowl championship. But I'm going to argue that you undervalued Giants' talent and team will win more than 6 1/2 games.
JPP wasn't the problem with this defense  
djm : 8/26/2015 9:24 am : link
I don't know why we have this debate day in day out.

JPP may not be the leader or alpha this defense needs but he certainly wasn't the problem.

Here's a good idea...maybe they should surround JPP with some guys that can actually play the position? Kiki and Ayers were hot garbage last season. If Moore, Wynn and Odi can add some playmaking ability wouldn't a guy like JPP benefit from that?
Manning lacks leadership skills?  
nicky43 : 8/26/2015 10:52 am : link
WTF? That's not the dumbest thing I ever read but close to it!

The guy sets the best example for work ethic and toughness on the team. And lets just ignore how well he leads the team in clutch games.

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