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Welcome home Spags: (The game within the game)

moose53 : 8/25/2015 11:06 am
Saw the Jacksonville game (finally) and wanted to share just a slice of one of the many reasons why I am so happy to have him back.

– Giants first defensive series:

Third and long on Giants 48 yard line – prior to snap 6 Giants at line of scrimmage, two linebackers in middle gaps with additional safety close, also threatening possible blitz up the middle. At snap all six at the line of scrimmage rush and while they don’t intensely pressure qb he gets rid of ball quickly to crossing receiver for what should have been 4 yard gain short of first down except Jackson misses clean, drive stopping tackle at Giant 45 yard line.

Three plays later on 3rd and ten – 4 2 5 defensive set against 3 wide receiver alignment. Again prior to snap 6 giants at line of scrimmage with one linebacker and one safety in gaps, and another safety tightly packed to line of scrimmage threatening blitz. At snap six Giants at line of scrimmage rush with Thomas shooting a gap unimpeded to qb, misses the sack but forces qb to run; he gets hit which results in fumble, 4th down and field goal attempt.

In summary: two third and longs – similar pressurized disguised defensive formations with seven Giants ready to blitz and no tip off on who, how many, or where they are coming from. Surprise – surprise; on the drive breaker we have a giant coming in UNIMPEDED towards the qb – a signature result from Spags earlier time with the Jints (curtesy of his mentoring from Jimmy Johnson). I smile at the thought of having many more of these moments this season.

A prime example of what Spags brought last time as DC and will bring again (even with the lack of talent that so many have pointed out) that Fewell was unable to deliver – well disguised blitzes that will have far more success than what we continually groaned about during PF’s watch as DC. It’s not about how many blitzes’ you bring but the timing and scheme you use to confuse the opponents and get to the qb.

I am not saying I expect a top ten defense this year because talent level obviously does make a difference (and due to JPP I believe Spags will have less to work with this year than Fewell had at any time during his stay), but if the defense does poorly at least this year I won’t feel it is due to poor coaching!

BTW – While I like others will forever be grateful for two magnificent super bowl victories in the last 10 years, this is the first year I feel we have two excellent coordinators at the same time to match TC’s steady, excellent leadership at the helm. (And yes, I was never a fan of Gilbride and I don’t relieve TC of responsibility for his choices for coordinators)
great post moose53  
area junc : 8/25/2015 11:13 am : link
i had the same feelings. feels like it's been 6 years since we saw a blitz that worked

it also really started hitting home how bad I want to see JPP in this scheme. spags would stand him up and rush him from all over the place + take advantage of the attention
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 11:16 am : link
Sold post and I agree that the blitzing will be more efficient on Spags' watch.. but give me a break on the personnel excuse. Fewell had a lot of garbage of his own to work with. Last year especially. Spags is going to have a much better LB corps than Perry did last year. Our secondary also was decimated last season. JPP is a huge loss but we do have decent depth up front.
Good post  
mfsd : 8/25/2015 11:19 am : link
I'm keeping in mind that Spags defense is complex and last time around, it took several games for our guys to get the hang of it...hopefully our offense can help us win some games while the defense goes through its growing pains
Danger Moose?  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2015 11:20 am : link
.
arcarsenal : 11:16 am  
moose53 : 8/25/2015 11:24 am : link
Understand what you're saying. For me, the JPP loss is the talent tipping point between this year and those under Fewell's watch. It would make such a difference to have a healthy JPP in Spags system.
Nice to see  
lecky : 8/25/2015 11:25 am : link
Spags back as there were no more exciting defenses than the years he was here. Other than the days of LT. However, the Giants may be counting on Prince and DRC too much as the dropoff seems to be significant. My feeling is as long as they stay healthy the D will keep them in the game this year.
it's a key point mfsd  
area junc : 8/25/2015 11:27 am : link
and 1 i'm wary of too...
that said, its possible credibility can help him. he walked into a veteran defense in 07 preaching some pretty radical stuff with no experience to back it up

hopefully he's learned some things about getting started quicker in combination with some increased immediate credibility w/coaches+players
RE: Danger Moose?  
Victor in CT : 8/25/2015 11:30 am : link
In comment 12434711 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
.


Marty Moose
Big Blue '56 : 11:20 am: Danger Moose?  
moose53 : 8/25/2015 11:33 am : link
No BB '56:

I'm RobertR returning under a former childhood nickname. Left the forum last year due to the gang bullying going on toward some posters. Dialogued with Eric (whom I respect) but disagreed with his response. Found it ironic that a couple of months later came a new wave of discussions about treating posters with more respect :-). Am happy to see the change and now feel more comfortable posting.
I wish I could put my finger on why one coach  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/25/2015 11:40 am : link
can't seem to produce effective blitzing but another coach can. Though, I do think in Fewell's case, blitzing just wasn't a tactic that he really strongly relied on, so maybe it makes sense that it wasn't a strong or effective teaching point.

Nice to have a linebacker coach teaching the guys how to get to the QB.
hammer blitzing is an artform  
area junc : 8/25/2015 11:53 am : link
that's what made perry a pretender. he didn't know how to manufacture pressure when he needed it. Or when.

it's about schemes, and teaching the players EXACTLY how to disguise and time it up.

Spags system will have 2 guys breathing fire in the A-gap almost every snap and you have no clue if they're coming or dropping. if they both blitz everyone has to down block (inside shoulder) but you also have a talented DL shooting the gap on your outside shoulder. if the LBs drop that's your man. it creates confusion and hesitation which allows routine free runs at the QB and guys blowing things up in the backfield over + over again
In two pre-season games Spags has contrived more pressure...  
Torrag : 8/25/2015 12:03 pm : link
...through scheming than Perry has in his career. Fewell stinks.
That's the positive to Spags  
Dave M : 8/25/2015 12:09 pm : link
If you are going to beat him it's not because he's not swinging. It's very rare to see a 2 or 3 man rush on 3rd down. He aggressive and not afraid to get beat on a blitz which is a much better philosophy than the Fewell version of read and react. I was disappointed in the hiring only because I wanted Dennis Allen as DC but it will be refreshing to see a D that plays to its strengths for once.
Blitzing and coaching pedigree  
moose53 : 8/25/2015 12:14 pm : link
Spags learned from one of the best in Jimmy Johnson while an assistant coach for the eagles. Naturally Spags would add his own wrinkles, but I think pedigree plays a significant role in the schemes one develops. I love to know what he added to his toolkit from his experiences with the Ravens.
That 2 Strong Blitz  
RetroJint : 8/25/2015 12:17 pm : link
IE. Double backers strong side is the Nehru jacket of NFL pressures. Bud Man started it in the early 80s with the Bears. There was no disguise. The play worked because it was timed well and a weak o-line didn't react to it properly. Let's see it work against the Cowboys. BTW it's the same blitz that Jacksonville ran on the Giants in last year's game. Same deal: nothing particularly difficult about it. It worked on the Giants because the right side of their o-line, particularly Fells if I recall correctly, didn't handle their assignments.

Oh and Spagnuolo played lots of Cover 3 Sat night, which is Fewell's prime defense. Last year Fewell played most of the season without Beason, McBride and Thurmond, and then he lost Ayers & Amakumara. He had the worst core of safeties in the league. Injury-wise I don't want to hear shit from Spagnuolo's acolytes. Just stop em, Baby.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 12:18 pm : link
RJ lays down the hammer again.
Has Spags made any public comments on Kuhn?  
penkap75 : 8/25/2015 12:36 pm : link
I think if they dropped Kuhn into coverage like Fewell use to do with DT, I may not acutaly throw my remote.
First Retro... then Arc...  
moose53 : 8/25/2015 12:51 pm : link
If by "acolyte" you mean "adherent" then yes I agree with Spags schemes for deploying his troops and feel it is more effective then Fewell's ways. If you mean "follower" with a tinge of "blind" before it, then I humbly beg to differ!

Yes, the hammer was laid down; a delusional and ineffective hammer, but one nonetheless.
There doesn't have to be anything difficult about it  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/25/2015 12:54 pm : link
as long as it works.

This team has sucked at getting home on blitzes for 6 years.
Coaching can make a huge difference  
jpennyva : 8/25/2015 12:55 pm : link
Call it chemistry, call it different perspective, call it respect but a change in coach, even if there is little change in players, can make a huge difference in all sports. The Lakers had talent but couldn't seem to pull it together until Phil Jackson got there. The Yankees had talent (albeit young) and pulled it together when Joe Torre got there. The one thing I didn't like about Fewell was that he didn't seem to change things up much when calling the same plays over again wasn't working. I think Spags will change things up and provide a spark that just hasn't been there for a while. Some coaches are not just better teachers but better motivators. I am cautiously optimistic just by virtue of replacing Fewell with Spags.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 12:59 pm : link
Delusional? He pointed out that you incorrectly determined that the blitzes you referred to were not, in fact, disguised and that we showed a good dose of Cover 3. Which was something Fewell used a good deal of. Where's the delusion?

I'd also like to point out that all people around here did these last few years was complain about DB's playing off WR's and not playing m2m press. Guess what we've seen a ton of these first 2 games? Off coverage and zones. But I'm sure it's fine this time around because, well.. Spags.

I am personally amused by the way every single Spagnuolo post includes the injury caveat. All of a sudden, it's a reasonable excuse to use but no one wanted to hear it when it happened to Perry.

It was time for a change and I'm fine with Spagnuolo being the guy. I think he's a good defensive mind. But spare me the excuses. If the defense continues to suck, he shouldn't get any more of a pass than anyone else.
RE: That 2 Strong Blitz  
Semipro Lineman : 8/25/2015 1:01 pm : link
In comment 12434804 RetroJint said:
Quote:
IE. Double backers strong side is the Nehru jacket of NFL pressures. Bud Man started it in the early 80s with the Bears. There was no disguise.


Thank you for pointing that out. SMH
Perry Fewell's defenses  
Dave M : 8/25/2015 1:02 pm : link
were perennially ranked in the bottom half of the league in yards against and points against. Yes, it wasn't all his fault but lack of adjustments during the game and having the defense look completely unprepared at times is. How many years does he get a pass for? Spags isn't this savior some may think but he is a better coordinator than Fewell and I think he'll prove it. I think Allen is better than them both but why beat a dead horse.
RE: Has Spags made any public comments on Kuhn?  
Tesla : 8/25/2015 1:12 pm : link
In comment 12434845 penkap75 said:
Quote:
I think if they dropped Kuhn into coverage like Fewell use to do with DT, I may not acutaly throw my remote.


How will you be able to tell when Kuhn is dropping into coverage or it just looks that way because he is being blown off the LOS?
Actually he had 2 top-10 Defenses as a Giant DC  
Semipro Lineman : 8/25/2015 1:12 pm : link
2010 & 2013 in yardage totals. And in 2012 when the defense was 31st in yards against, they were actually the 12th best scoring defense in the league.

Quote:
Perry Fewell's defenses were perennially ranked in the bottom half of the league in yards against and points against.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 1:21 pm : link
I also love how Fewell dropping linemen into coverage was some huge ordeal around here. It's called a zone blitz and you'll see it happen in most NFL games at some point if you actually pay attention.
People hated Fewell so much..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/25/2015 1:27 pm : link
that they can't even get stats right about him. What you could say is that his defenses were inconsistent. Within games and within seasons. But to make it out like he was absolutely incompetant and his teams were always ranked low is a pure myth. He had two years where his teams were at or near the top ten and two years they were from 15 to 20. That's not great, but I'd challenge anyone to find a BBI'er who thought he was great.

Unfortunately, you'd find a lot of BBI'ers who not only would say he sucked, but liked to personally attack the man as if he killed a famous Nigerian lion or something.
I'm happy to have Spags instead of Fewell...  
an_idol_mind : 8/25/2015 1:30 pm : link
but to say Perry sucked is pretty wrong and disrespectful to a guy who was integral to delivering a championship to this team.

He had his flaws, but he also had a pair of top 10 defenses in his time (one of which came during a year when the offense was one of the worst ever) and shut down both Aaron Rodgers and Tom Brady in the postseason.
RE: .  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/25/2015 1:32 pm : link
In comment 12434925 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
I also love how Fewell dropping linemen into coverage was some huge ordeal around here. It's called a zone blitz and you'll see it happen in most NFL games at some point if you actually pay attention.


I still don't get how people forget that Spags did it with Tuck multiple times.
RE: That 2 Strong Blitz  
HomerJones45 : 8/25/2015 1:46 pm : link
In comment 12434804 RetroJint said:
Quote:
IE. Double backers strong side is the Nehru jacket of NFL pressures. Bud Man started it in the early 80s with the Bears. There was no disguise. The play worked because it was timed well and a weak o-line didn't react to it properly. Let's see it work against the Cowboys. BTW it's the same blitz that Jacksonville ran on the Giants in last year's game. Same deal: nothing particularly difficult about it. It worked on the Giants because the right side of their o-line, particularly Fells if I recall correctly, didn't handle their assignments.

Oh and Spagnuolo played lots of Cover 3 Sat night, which is Fewell's prime defense. Last year Fewell played most of the season without Beason, McBride and Thurmond, and then he lost Ayers & Amakumara. He had the worst core of safeties in the league. Injury-wise I don't want to hear shit from Spagnuolo's acolytes. Just stop em, Baby.
Bingo.
great post  
Les in TO : 8/25/2015 1:52 pm : link
fewell's defense was a mess last season, bad communication and missed assignments. you can blame the talent, but the talent wasn't responsible for the laugh-fest in seattle.
Spags doesn't  
area junc : 8/25/2015 2:00 pm : link
disguise?

lmao. the shit u read around here
Fewell apologists are blind  
Torrag : 8/25/2015 2:01 pm : link
His Giants tenure is rife with terrible 3rd down conversion rates, an inability to dial up pressure when needed, communication breakdowns and a host of blowouts vs quality quarterbacks.

He is the proud owner of 2 of the worst defenses in franchise history while never leading a Top 10 scoring defense in five years. He only cracked the top half of the leagues scoring defenses once in the same time period.

He was awful.
the double A  
area junc : 8/25/2015 2:06 pm : link
is a disguise. u don't know whether they're rushing or dropping. it looks like blitz every time. it's not. disguise. and a very effective one.

on top of that, he runs several disguised nuances off the double A. all the time an unaccounted nickel comes screaming off the edge. that's a disguise.

and the double A is just 1 look. he has all sorts of stuff. to say the guy doesn't disguise - that is just a scary bad observation
RE: .  
HomerJones45 : 8/25/2015 2:07 pm : link
In comment 12434887 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Delusional? He pointed out that you incorrectly determined that the blitzes you referred to were not, in fact, disguised and that we showed a good dose of Cover 3. Which was something Fewell used a good deal of. Where's the delusion?

I'd also like to point out that all people around here did these last few years was complain about DB's playing off WR's and not playing m2m press. Guess what we've seen a ton of these first 2 games? Off coverage and zones. But I'm sure it's fine this time around because, well.. Spags.

I am personally amused by the way every single Spagnuolo post includes the injury caveat. All of a sudden, it's a reasonable excuse to use but no one wanted to hear it when it happened to Perry.

It was time for a change and I'm fine with Spagnuolo being the guy. I think he's a good defensive mind. But spare me the excuses. If the defense continues to suck, he shouldn't get any more of a pass than anyone else.
Good post
love the thread  
mattlawson : 8/25/2015 2:15 pm : link
.
RE: Spags doesn't  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 2:18 pm : link
In comment 12434998 area junc said:
Quote:
disguise?

lmao. the shit u read around here


Try reading the post again, Thomas.

U seem 2 b swinging n missing here.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 2:21 pm : link
Also, Fewell would easily have had a top 10 scoring defense in 2013 if the offense hadn't been directly responsible for so many points scored against us. No team in the league had a defense that saw more points scored without even being on the field than the 2013 Giants.
So when does Potato Head go in the ring of honor?  
ghost718 : 8/25/2015 2:21 pm : link
Let's go Redskins
RE: Fewell apologists are blind  
HomerJones45 : 8/25/2015 2:23 pm : link
In comment 12435000 Torrag said:
Quote:
His Giants tenure is rife with terrible 3rd down conversion rates, an inability to dial up pressure when needed, communication breakdowns and a host of blowouts vs quality quarterbacks.

He is the proud owner of 2 of the worst defenses in franchise history while never leading a Top 10 scoring defense in five years. He only cracked the top half of the leagues scoring defenses once in the same time period.

He was awful.
What he was rife with was terrible safeties, shitty linebacking, a missing tackle and dead corners.

You guys are all enthusiastic about all this blitzing and pressure. Let's see how enthusiastic you are when somebody misses a tackle and the play goes for a big gain (like example #1 above), or someone misses a sack and the qb either takes off or gets the pass off to a receiver who is uncovered or single covered by one of our crappy db's (example #2 above).
Haven't we already seen quite a lot of this?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/25/2015 2:26 pm : link
"Let's see how enthusiastic you are when somebody misses a tackle and the play goes for a big gain (like example #1 above), or someone misses a sack and the qb either takes off or gets the pass off to a receiver who is uncovered or single covered by one of our crappy db's"
Who the hell is potato head?  
Torrag : 8/25/2015 2:26 pm : link
WTF are you talking about? Fucking trolls.

Next Fewell rationalization up to bat is he would have had one top 10 scoring defense but it was the offense at fault? LOL. He sucked. Own it.
I'm your side you idiot  
ghost718 : 8/25/2015 2:28 pm : link
Man your dumb
Giants defense is about intelligent aggression  
Torrag : 8/25/2015 2:29 pm : link
Fewell didn't deliver nearly enough of that on his watch. Good coordinators don't need the best talent to play good defense. His teams rated from mediocre to fucking terrible.

I'll give him credit for manufacturing a championship run but barring that period of time he was crap.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 2:32 pm : link
Torrag, how about instead of insulting people and cussing like a sailor, you try actually bringing something cogent to the table for once? I've noticed this trend with you.. you're a lot of talk but that's about it.

I actually did a thread on this back in 2013 and showed that the 2013 Giants were scored on more than any team in football with the defense OFF the field. It all counted as "points against" just the same because there's no distinction between the two by the sites that keep track. Our number was grossly inflated by interceptions and fumbles that were returned for TD's and turnovers that happened well within our own territory that gave opposing offenses their first play of the drive already well within FG range.

Cool, you think he sucked. I didn't think he was anything special. But I at least support my opinion with more than name calling.
Regarding delusional  
moose53 : 8/25/2015 2:34 pm : link
See this: "The play worked because it was timed well and a weak o-line didn't react to it properly."

Their o-line was fooled by the formation allowing our defender an open lane to the qb. This passes my eye-test for the defensive scheme being "disguised". Calling the victim "weak" doesn't change the success of the play or how their intent to protect their qb broke down in a way that confused them and goes beyond their level of talent.

My eye-test for Fewell's attempts at blitzing showed a lack of scheme, feel, or timing for it.

As for the rest - I wasn't commenting on other parts of the defense except to venture the opinion that I didn't feel Fewell was a good coach. Just like their are better or worse players, their are better or worse coaches. The group of BBIers who think Fewell was better are out now in full force.

Of course if you refer to the judgment of the NFL who presumably know better than BBIers have evaluated and passed judgment on whether Spags or Fewell did better as defensive coordinator of the Giants. Spags was in high demand and became an NFL head coach. Fewell was let go and became an NFL backfield coach.

What Spags did in the interim I couldn't care less because my measuring stick was my experience seeing what happened while both were Giant coaches.

As I said, I anticipate enjoying this year's journey with the Giants. If I see something that Spag's does that I disagree with I will say it (like I did in the past).
Here are our holdover defensive players from 2013  
HomerJones45 : 8/25/2015 2:37 pm : link
Kuhn
Cooper Taylor
Hosley
Moore
Hankins
JPP (if he signs)
Jenkins
McBride
Herzlich
Beason
Prince

Here were our back 7 from 2014: (blue= still with team at least for now)
Kennard
Herzlich
McClain
Beason (4 games)

Paysinger
Williams
Bowman
Rolle
Demps
Brown
Prince (8games)
DRC

Chykie (8 games)
Harris
McBride
Behre
Hosley
Fenner

Thurmond (2 games)

And you wonder why the defense struggled last year? In fact, looking at the list, I am not sure we weren't going to struggle this year if Jesus Christ was the DC.
RE: Regarding delusional  
HomerJones45 : 8/25/2015 2:44 pm : link
In comment 12435060 moose53 said:
Quote:
See this: "The play worked because it was timed well and a weak o-line didn't react to it properly."

Their o-line was fooled by the formation allowing our defender an open lane to the qb. This passes my eye-test for the defensive scheme being "disguised". Calling the victim "weak" doesn't change the success of the play or how their intent to protect their qb broke down in a way that confused them and goes beyond their level of talent.

My eye-test for Fewell's attempts at blitzing showed a lack of scheme, feel, or timing for it.

As for the rest - I wasn't commenting on other parts of the defense except to venture the opinion that I didn't feel Fewell was a good coach. Just like their are better or worse players, their are better or worse coaches. The group of BBIers who think Fewell was better are out now in full force.

Of course if you refer to the judgment of the NFL who presumably know better than BBIers have evaluated and passed judgment on whether Spags or Fewell did better as defensive coordinator of the Giants. Spags was in high demand and became an NFL head coach. Fewell was let go and became an NFL backfield coach.

What Spags did in the interim I couldn't care less because my measuring stick was my experience seeing what happened while both were Giant coaches.

As I said, I anticipate enjoying this year's journey with the Giants. If I see something that Spag's does that I disagree with I will say it (like I did in the past).
Get your eyes tested. How much "scheme, feel or timing" are you going to get when you are trying to blitz Paysinger, Herzlich, Williams, McClain?
RE: .  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2015 2:52 pm : link
In comment 12435057 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Torrag, how about instead of insulting people and cussing like a sailor, you try actually bringing something cogent to the table for once? I've noticed this trend with you.. you're a lot of talk but that's about it.

I actually did a thread on this back in 2013 and showed that the 2013 Giants were scored on more than any team in football with the defense OFF the field. It all counted as "points against" just the same because there's no distinction between the two by the sites that keep track. Our number was grossly inflated by interceptions and fumbles that were returned for TD's and turnovers that happened well within our own territory that gave opposing offenses their first play of the drive already well within FG range.

Cool, you think he sucked. I didn't think he was anything special. But I at least support my opinion with more than name calling.


As you know, I was with you and HJ45 on the Fewell question, at least until the very end when I believe that in THIS CASE, it was probably better to simply move on and try someone else..I wasn't all that thrilled with the Spags hire but understood why they did it..

He is a great communicator and may very well get through to those that Fewell MAY not have..Time will tell on that..

The only coach for the Giants I have never felt it was time to move on from was
Hit submit too soon..  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2015 2:53 pm : link
The only coach I never felt we should move on from was/is Coughlin
Sigh...  
grizz299 : 8/25/2015 2:59 pm : link
We won a superbowl a few years ago with the maligned duo of Gilbride and Fewell. Moreover it was against the toughest opposition anyone has seen since Bradshaws Steelers had to go up against Pastorino's Oiler's, Stabler
s Raiders and Staubach's Cowboys.
Not even Bradshaws opposition had more wins that the teams we faced in that run when all the games (save possibly Atlanta) were on the road.

In this super competitive NFL you do not win super bowls with bad co-ordinators.

In a time when it's trendy to "arguably" it refreshing to say it's inarguable ....it's inarguable then, you do not win superbowls without good co-ordinators.

That's not to say a time doesn't come when they should be replaced...but the criticism those fine men and fine football men have endured here over the years isn't about them so much as it is about the hubris of guys who played end for Smallsville High some thirty years and NEED to know more than a full time professional at the very height of his profession.
I am better prepared to argue Quantum Mechanics against Neil Bohr than most here are to understand the techniques that Fewell brought to the game.
I would love to see them watch a chess match and critiize a Bobby Fisher opening..."I really don't think he should have gone to the Queens Gambit Declined there, i prefer the Scilian with the white bishop fianchetto.
RE: Blitzing and coaching pedigree  
shabu : 8/25/2015 2:59 pm : link
In comment 12434799 moose53 said:
Quote:
Spags learned from one of the best in Jimmy Johnson while an assistant coach for the eagles. Naturally Spags would add his own wrinkles, but I think pedigree plays a significant role in the schemes one develops. I love to know what he added to his toolkit from his experiences with the Ravens.


The eagles experience is what gets me here with Spags. I never knew who the players on the eagles defense were, unlike dallas where i knew the "stars"... but yet they were always tough, every year.
Hey BB '56  
moose53 : 8/25/2015 3:01 pm : link
You wanted Parcells to go?
RE: Sigh...  
shabu : 8/25/2015 3:02 pm : link
In comment 12435103 grizz299 said:
Quote:
We won a superbowl a few years ago with the maligned duo of Gilbride and Fewell. Moreover it was against the toughest opposition anyone has seen since Bradshaws Steelers had to go up against Pastorino's Oiler's, Stabler
s Raiders and Staubach's Cowboys.
Not even Bradshaws opposition had more wins that the teams we faced in that run when all the games (save possibly Atlanta) were on the road.

In this super competitive NFL you do not win super bowls with bad co-ordinators.

In a time when it's trendy to "arguably" it refreshing to say it's inarguable ....it's inarguable then, you do not win superbowls without good co-ordinators.

That's not to say a time doesn't come when they should be replaced...but the criticism those fine men and fine football men have endured here over the years isn't about them so much as it is about the hubris of guys who played end for Smallsville High some thirty years and NEED to know more than a full time professional at the very height of his profession.
I am better prepared to argue Quantum Mechanics against Neil Bohr than most here are to understand the techniques that Fewell brought to the game.
I would love to see them watch a chess match and critiize a Bobby Fisher opening..."I really don't think he should have gone to the Queens Gambit Declined there, i prefer the Scilian with the white bishop fianchetto.


I will give you Gilbride, as the giants offense was always a good performer since Eli turned it on. That said, our defense was horrid under fewell. We got through the playoffs and the superbowl more on Eli's arm than anything else.
There is a..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/25/2015 3:02 pm : link
fundamental problem with this post:

Quote:
Fewell apologists are blind
Torrag : 2:01 pm : link : reply
His Giants tenure is rife with terrible 3rd down conversion rates, an inability to dial up pressure when needed, communication breakdowns and a host of blowouts vs quality quarterbacks.

He is the proud owner of 2 of the worst defenses in franchise history while never leading a Top 10 scoring defense in five years. He only cracked the top half of the leagues scoring defenses once in the same time period.

He was awful.


It is that there are "Fewell apologists".

Show me a person who thought Fewell was a great coach. Show me a person who thinks he should still be the DC.

What we have are quite a few people who have effectively argued that Fewell isn't Satan. Christ, we still have people who think Gilbride was shitty too.

There is a gray area that almost all coaches fall into. Perhaps if fans weren't such fucking morons that they make personal attacks on coaches, even though they have little to no knowledge of either the game, the schemes, or the skills of the players under them, there wouldn't be a need to defend people the majority of us find to be mediocre.

It cracks me up that calling a guy mediocre gets one labeled an "apologist", when in reality it is more of an argument against the absolute fucksticks who try to call the guy dogshit.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 3:06 pm : link
In comment 12435090 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12435057 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Torrag, how about instead of insulting people and cussing like a sailor, you try actually bringing something cogent to the table for once? I've noticed this trend with you.. you're a lot of talk but that's about it.

I actually did a thread on this back in 2013 and showed that the 2013 Giants were scored on more than any team in football with the defense OFF the field. It all counted as "points against" just the same because there's no distinction between the two by the sites that keep track. Our number was grossly inflated by interceptions and fumbles that were returned for TD's and turnovers that happened well within our own territory that gave opposing offenses their first play of the drive already well within FG range.

Cool, you think he sucked. I didn't think he was anything special. But I at least support my opinion with more than name calling.



As you know, I was with you and HJ45 on the Fewell question, at least until the very end when I believe that in THIS CASE, it was probably better to simply move on and try someone else..I wasn't all that thrilled with the Spags hire but understood why they did it..

He is a great communicator and may very well get through to those that Fewell MAY not have..Time will tell on that..

The only coach for the Giants I have never felt it was time to move on from was


Fiddy, my contention points are really less about Fewell himself and more about the double standards. No one cared to hear about it when Fewell's defenses were annihilated by injuries and the players on the field wouldn't have been starters in any other city but there's already a built in caveat in every one of these threads about Spags that basically exonerate him in advance for the shortcomings of the defense by basically saying "well, he has the right idea.. just not the personnel"

Well, Fewell helped us win a goddamn Super Bowl when he had the personnel so what difference does it make?
RE: Hey BB '56  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2015 3:09 pm : link
In comment 12435109 moose53 said:
Quote:
You wanted Parcells to go?


Lol, hell no..What I should have said was since TC came here in 2004..All of his coaches since day 1, though I didn't want Spags to leave
arc I've never called you a name  
Torrag : 8/25/2015 3:11 pm : link
Grownups use salty language at times. Some idiocies or drivel should be called on it imo. Don't be so sensitive.

Second what part of stats detailing his defenses failed rankings isn't cogent? You site his defense one year could have been ranked in the top ten scoring defenses. Whoopee that still sucks. His other four were 17, 18, 22 and 25. Including two that are historically bad for the Giants. Last years was the worst in franchise history. Not cogent my ass. Frankly his time in NY would be a total failure if he hadn't rallied the troops and won a title. he did and I credit him form that but he should have been fired sooner.
Arca,  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2015 3:12 pm : link
agree with the thrust of your point..In fact, every post I made about the Giants in general and Fewell in particular, was laced with injury(to very key personnel) disclaimers
RE: .  
dorgan : 8/25/2015 3:17 pm : link
In comment 12435037 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Also, Fewell would easily have had a top 10 scoring defense in 2013 if the offense hadn't been directly responsible for so many points scored against us. No team in the league had a defense that saw more points scored without even being on the field than the 2013 Giants.


That is a solid point. We had so many turnovers that resulted in opponent's points that it had to affect the D's rating by a good deal.

RE: Hit submit too soon..  
Semipro Lineman : 8/25/2015 3:19 pm : link
In comment 12435092 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
The only coach I never felt we should move on from was/is Coughlin


I have always hated the scapegoat game for a few reasons but the main one is always the irrational bullshit that gets thrown around to justified the scapegoating. And the BBI love for the Double A-Gap blitz is ridiculous. The supposedly awful O-line last year successfully defeated that blitz and it wasn't attempted against them nearly as much as it was on the 2013 blockers.

Once again from the beginning, the defensive line when that tactic was working so well included a healthy Osi, young Tuck, and a HOF-er named Strahan.

Once again, the defensive coordinator who got the highest percentage of his sacks from his non-defensive lineman was Sherridan. In fact, Spag's defense only recorded 5.5 sacks from a non-defensive lineman in 2008 when Osi and Strahan were gone. What that brilliant coaching and blitz calling stop working all of a sudden or was it personnel differences?

Once again, Devon Kennard 4.5 sacks last year under Fewell in basically half a season equals the highest total a non-lineman had under Spags.

Spags was a very good defensive coordinator for the Giants but in addition to a better D-line, he also the luxury of a stronger healthier secondary when he coached.
RE: Actually he had 2 top-10 Defenses as a Giant DC  
Dave M : 8/25/2015 3:20 pm : link
In comment 12434916 Semipro Lineman said:
Quote:
2010 & 2013 in yardage totals. And in 2012 when the defense was 31st in yards against, they were actually the 12th best scoring defense in the league.



Quote:


Perry Fewell's defenses were perennially ranked in the bottom half of the league in yards against and points against.



And they were 18th points against in 13 and 17th in 10. I thought 2013 was his best year because the O was so bad and the D kept them in games. However, because our O was so bad teams team the ball alot more and didn't have to score as much to beat the Giants. I won't even mention the string of 2nd and 3rd string Qbs that we faced after the 0-6 start. I never hated Fewell I just don't think he was good enough to continue with. Last year the team for killed with the lack of adjustments on the defense. Whether that's on the head coach of not I don't know but he got owned in the 2nd half of games last season. Just my opinion. Spags did have the worst defense of all time in New Orleans but hopefully with TC he'll reign in this D.
Fewell won a title that carries some cache with it  
raever : 8/25/2015 3:21 pm : link
That said his defenses were in the bottom half of the league in points allowed four of his five years. Injuries are no excuse for consistent mediocrity.
FatMan in Charlotte : 3:02 pm  
moose53 : 8/25/2015 3:31 pm : link
Would you agree with this: Just like their are better or worse players, their are better or worse coaches.

If the scale is "worse or better" in the world of professional NFL coaches, is it so off base to rank Fewell with the "worse" rather than better. On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being outstanding, are we arguing whether Fewell is between a 4 and a 6?

Then I would say in my opinion, Spags floor is a 7 with an upside to 8 or 9 :-)

What do you think?
RE: arc I've never called you a name  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 3:34 pm : link
In comment 12435129 Torrag said:
Quote:
Grownups use salty language at times. Some idiocies or drivel should be called on it imo. Don't be so sensitive.

Second what part of stats detailing his defenses failed rankings isn't cogent? You site his defense one year could have been ranked in the top ten scoring defenses. Whoopee that still sucks. His other four were 17, 18, 22 and 25. Including two that are historically bad for the Giants. Last years was the worst in franchise history. Not cogent my ass. Frankly his time in NY would be a total failure if he hadn't rallied the troops and won a title. he did and I credit him form that but he should have been fired sooner.


I just feel it's too short sighted to reference one measure and one measure only. There are a lot of variables. One of which I just pointed out. He had years where they forced more turnovers than the majority of the league, years where they got to the QB more than the majority of the league and a couple of his years, his defenses got off the field on 3rd downs at a pretty high clip.

Overall.. okay DC in my book. Was time for a change. Certainly didn't lose sleep over it.

I am just confused by the false narratives that seem to live on regarding Spagnuolo around here more than anything else. Because of what he accomplished here and the fact that he wasn't around long enough for the bad times that transpired following his departure, he's been carried along in Giants lore in a way that doesn't totally jive with reality.

In any event, I am rooting for the guy to turn this thing around just as much as anyone else but remain skeptical for the same reasons I was worried about Fewell's defense last year. Some of the same ugly trends are already surfacing in these preseason games (specifically uncovered receivers across the middle of the field, which was a massively common critique of Perry's defenses). Let's hope they don't continue. I realize there will be an adjustment period and am fine with giving it a little time. That said, my hopes aren't high.
RE: In two pre-season games Spags has contrived more pressure...  
David in LA : 8/25/2015 3:35 pm : link
In comment 12434782 Torrag said:
Quote:
...through scheming than Perry has in his career. Fewell stinks.


No one will take you seriously if you hang your hat on hyperbole.
I think..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 8/25/2015 3:37 pm : link
this is a gross exaggeration of where many fans rank Fewell.

Quote:
On a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being outstanding, are we arguing whether Fewell is between a 4 and a 6?


There is a pretty large group of posters who would probably place Fewell as a -1.

Of course there are better coaches than others. But fans tend to base their opinions on incomplete information, using a combination of faulty analysis and faulty comprehension of the game itself.

For instance, it was mentioned above, but Fewell was constantly crucified for dropping DL into coverage - often with the caveat "Spags would never do that". Time and again, it was pointed out that Spags did indeed do that.

Like I said above, this is less of an argument for Fewell and more of one against people who shouldn't be passing opinions on coaching because they are too fucking stupid to put together a decent argument.
FatMan  
Matt M. : 8/25/2015 3:44 pm : link
I despised Fewell because year after year his defenses were in the bottom 1/3 (or worse). I thought his blitzes were unimaginative and poorly designed. Every year his DBs, regardless of the personnel had countless miscommunications and confusion over assignments. He loved stunting to a fault (but a lot of DCs do). The middle of the field was constantly left undefensed, yet we still gave up big plays on the outside. I thought his CBs played too far off the ball consistently, especially in the 3rd and intermediate range, where a quick tackle is the difference between a first down or not.
But I will also say that I think Spags is overrated  
Matt M. : 8/25/2015 3:46 pm : link
by most here. his defenses were good, but not great. During the SB run, he was made to look better by an absolutely dominant DL led by a very dominating Strahan down the stretch and post season. I don't think it was the scheme, but that success was not replicated since.
RE: .  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 8/25/2015 3:48 pm : link
In comment 12435057 arcarsenal said:
Quote:

I actually did a thread on this back in 2013 and showed that the 2013 Giants were scored on more than any team in football with the defense OFF the field. It all counted as "points against" just the same because there's no distinction between the two by the sites that keep track. Our number was grossly inflated by interceptions and fumbles that were returned for TD's and turnovers that happened well within our own territory that gave opposing offenses their first play of the drive already well within FG range.



I would argue that the 2013 defensive stats (in terms of yardage) were grossly inflated in favor of Fewell because the offense was so bad that opposing offenses had very short fields to work and then games were over very quickly . Similar to how the raiders typically have good numbers against the pass over the years because when you are up big you run the clock out. I can't really back this argument up with stats but I always felt that way.

I thought Fewell was pretty lousy especially with blitzes. In 2011 I thought TC had to sit Tuck down and motivate him late in the season and they dumbed down Fewell's schemes and took the reigns from him to a degree. Maybe that is a BBI myth but it always seemed like to me 2011 happened in spite of Fewell
FatMan in Charlotte : 3:02 pm  
moose53 : 8/25/2015 3:53 pm : link
I'm not talking about others opinion in the abstract. I'm asking you where you are.
The job of the defense is too prevent the opponents scoring correct?  
Torrag : 8/25/2015 3:54 pm : link
Quote:
I just feel it's too short sighted to reference one measure and one measure only.


Points allowed isn't 'one measure only'. It's the primary function of the unit. It's their sole purpose and driving principle in the game.

The facts are Fewell's defense didn't accomplish that goal with any consistency or excellence during his tenure as our defensive coordinator. I don't see how it's debatable. I'm not saying he didn't do anything well. I'm saying the cumulative results were very bad.

The effects on the team as a whole are also cumulative when your defense can't get off the field on third downs. An area that his units were especially poor in. Ability to dial up pressure is directly linked to third down efficiency. Injury attrition is higher. Time of possession skews against you. Does any of this ring a bell? It should since as fans we've been subjected to it for much of the last five years. Because it was all part and parcel of Fewell's regime.

As a lifelong passionate Giants fan I've come to expect a certain attitude and achievement from our defensive corps. We have a tradition in that regard. I've never been more embarrassed by their performance on the field as I have been under this man's guidance. Thanks for your role in bringing a Lombardi trophy to us Perry...but I'm glad to see the back of you.



....  
BrettNYG10 : 8/25/2015 3:56 pm : link
arc has some great posts in this thread.
RE: The job of the defense is too prevent the opponents scoring correct?  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 4:02 pm : link
In comment 12435207 Torrag said:
Quote:


Quote:


I just feel it's too short sighted to reference one measure and one measure only.



Points allowed isn't 'one measure only'. It's the primary function of the unit. It's their sole purpose and driving principle in the game.

The facts are Fewell's defense didn't accomplish that goal with any consistency or excellence during his tenure as our defensive coordinator. I don't see how it's debatable. I'm not saying he didn't do anything well. I'm saying the cumulative results were very bad.

The effects on the team as a whole are also cumulative when your defense can't get off the field on third downs. An area that his units were especially poor in. Ability to dial up pressure is directly linked to third down efficiency. Injury attrition is higher. Time of possession skews against you. Does any of this ring a bell? It should since as fans we've been subjected to it for much of the last five years. Because it was all part and parcel of Fewell's regime.

As a lifelong passionate Giants fan I've come to expect a certain attitude and achievement from our defensive corps. We have a tradition in that regard. I've never been more embarrassed by their performance on the field as I have been under this man's guidance. Thanks for your role in bringing a Lombardi trophy to us Perry...but I'm glad to see the back of you.




But again, points allowed is an all inclusive figure. Every time a team returned a punt for a TD against us, it went in the books as 6 points against Fewell's unit. Ditto kick returns. Every time an INT went back for 6, it went in as 6 pts "allowed". Ditto fumbles taken back for TD's. And every time a turnover allowed an opposing offense to start a drive in scoring range, even if the defense allows zero yards, they will still almost certainly get a FG kicked on them and go in the books as 3 more points "allowed"

This is why I can't just look at PA and say "well, they sucked because they gave up a lot of points".. it simply doesn't tell the whole story.

Also, we were 4th in the NFL in 3rd down defense last year. Just throwing that out there.
arc you essentially dismiss cherry picking stats then...  
Torrag : 8/25/2015 4:19 pm : link
cherry pick that the worst scoring defense in Giants history was ranked 4th on third down efficiency. Teams didn't need three downs to convert a first down.

In 2013 they were ranked 23rd and 2012 they were 30th.

You're specious argument is that special teams and the offense were responsible for the defense failing to perform? So we scored enough against ourselves over five seasons to wallow in the bottom of the league in scoring defense. That's your position? That's thin. Anorexic really.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 4:34 pm : link
That's really not what I'm saying at all but for whatever reason you've decided to twist my argument into something it's not since the only one you're attempting to mount is laced with hyperbolic statements.

The league average team faced roughly 215 3rd down attempts over the course of the entire 2014 season. We faced 200. You think a 15 play sample had such a vast impact overall that it completely skewed our efficiency percentage?

I'm not cherry picking anything. All you keep giving me is "they gave up too many points" and I am simply explaining why I feel the number can be misleading. Then you said the defense could never get off the field on 3rd downs. That statement was false relative to the rest of the league in 2014 and so I pointed that out as well.

You pointed out 2012 and 2013 but conveniently left out 2010 when the Giants were 1st. Who was our DC that year? Do you think the variations happened because Fewell stopped understanding NFL offenses or because the talent levels fluctuated over the years? I tend to believe the latter had more to do with the shortcomings but that's me. I could do without the coordinator either way.
...the number can be misleading...  
Torrag : 8/25/2015 4:43 pm : link
How misleading can the numbers be arc? Ranked 17, 18, 22, 25. Two of the Giants worst scoring defenses historically in a five year span. Seriously how many points do you think we 'scored on ourselves'?

Move those rankings up a few notches every year and what do you get? Success? Excellence? No. You get failure and mediocrity.

So they weren't in the bottom seven in 3rd down efficiency every year. Only three of five years. It still proves my point.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2015 4:57 pm : link
So where was the "intelligent aggression" in New Orleans when Steve Spagnuolo fielded a defense that was record-setting bad in 2012?

There's a constant and a variable. The constant is the coach and the variables are the players. If you hold the coach accountable for the years we couldn't stop teams on 3rd downs, then you'll have to praise him for the years we did.

It was pretty clear to me that when we had the horses, we got pretty solid results. When we didn't, the defense sucked. Spags hasn't proven that his abilities can transcend poor personnel and in fact, his track record since leaving here proves the exact opposite.

But it'll be wonderfully convenient how when the defense struggles this season, the players just "aren't there".. or too many guys are hurt. That'll be fun.
Spagnuolo had one of the most brilliant  
Dave M : 8/25/2015 5:34 pm : link
game plans of all time against the Patriots. The wrinkles he used in that game were brilliant and the players played it perfectly. Yes, the personnel was better then but I don't think Fewell could put together a game plan that Spags did to beat that caliber a team even with the same personnel. Now, did Spags struggle on other teams with worse players? Absolutely. However, you can't take away what he's capable of doing.
Points allowed was the statistic many on here  
mattnyg05 : 8/25/2015 6:25 pm : link
would use when someone complained about all the yardage the Giants would routinely give up under Fewell, and now it doesn't tell the whole story.

I feel like there was always an excuse with the people who defended him. If he was firing 100% on all cylinders, he was average. To see a couple of linebackers blitz effectively, even in a preseason game where there were many defensive mistakes, is a breath of fresh air.
RE: Here are our holdover defensive players from 2013  
ct.fatboy1080 : 8/25/2015 7:57 pm : link
In comment 12435067 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
Kuhn
Cooper Taylor
Hosley
Moore
Hankins
JPP (if he signs)
Jenkins
McBride
Herzlich
Beason
Prince

Here were our back 7 from 2014: (blue= still with team at least for now)
Kennard
Herzlich
McClain
Beason (4 games)
Paysinger
Williams
Bowman
Rolle
Demps
Brown
Prince (8games)
DRC
Chykie (8 games)
Harris
McBride
Behre
Hosley
Fenner
Thurmond (2 games)

And you wonder why the defense struggled last year? In fact, looking at the list, I am not sure we weren't going to struggle this year if Jesus Christ was the DC.

agreed the only way we don't struggle is if Jesus actually plays..=)
Moose  
baadbill : 8/25/2015 8:08 pm : link
Great observation. I loved Spags the day they announced he was coming from the Eagles because I knew the pedigree and what it meant - the defense was going to dictate to play downhill and dictate to the offense.

Also agree 100% with your observation that for the first time during the Coughlin era that I have great confidence in both coordinators. Just a shame it has to be at a point in time when they have so little to work with (having said that, the offense has the potential to be the best in Giants history IF the offensive line can gel and provide a running attack AND IF Cruz is back 100%).
A few more weeks and we see what  
mdc1 : 8/25/2015 9:30 pm : link
we got with Spags. I like him, but this organization has really f'd up this team on the coaching and personnel front.
RE: .  
Toth029 : 8/26/2015 5:48 am : link
In comment 12435037 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Also, Fewell would easily have had a top 10 scoring defense in 2013 if the offense hadn't been directly responsible for so many points scored against us. No team in the league had a defense that saw more points scored without even being on the field than the 2013 Giants.
The defense fielding that season were not bad. But let's be real here, they faced many backup scrub QB's that year. Pryor, Tolzien, Freeman, etc.

If anything, it shows how good Will Hill was for 'em. And Beason was able to remain healthy.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 8/26/2015 8:00 am : link
In comment 12435942 Toth029 said:
Quote:
In comment 12435037 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Also, Fewell would easily have had a top 10 scoring defense in 2013 if the offense hadn't been directly responsible for so many points scored against us. No team in the league had a defense that saw more points scored without even being on the field than the 2013 Giants.

The defense fielding that season were not bad. But let's be real here, they faced many backup scrub QB's that year. Pryor, Tolzien, Freeman, etc.

If anything, it shows how good Will Hill was for 'em. And Beason was able to remain healthy.


Right, and that's mostly my point. I realize we played a lot of backup QB's that year but the difference a true playmaking safety and capable linebacker made were easy to notice. Fewell was here for 5 years and had a legitimately good middle linebacker a grand total of 13 games. That's literally it.
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