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Odighizuwa and setting the edge

Joey in VA : 8/30/2015 11:22 am
Fundamentals are boring, everyone wants sacks, interceptions, strip sacks, fumbles and eye popping plays from their defenders. Rewind the clock to 9 November of last year. Come on, you remember that day, the day we gave up 350 yards rushing with a 7.8 ypc average to the Seahawks. Perry Fewell's bunch, even with a 10 fingered JPP was simply run off the field in every way possible, but the most glaring weakness that was exposed was this team's inability to set the edge.

The basic fundamental building block of run defense is an ability to set the edge. It's the inglorious part of a DE and LB's job, one that won't end up in the stat column most of the time and won't get put on a highlight reel that has everyone oohing and aahing. It's what we have lacked in recent seasons but last night it peeked out from behind the bushes in the form of #58, fitting since birthday boy Carl Banks was the original #58 who did it to perfection. It was indeed pointed out by Banks and for good reason: it's simply the only way to play team defense against the modern zone based running game.

So what exactly is it? It's fundamental football, it's staying parallel to the line of scrimmage, keeping a wide base, extending your arms to keep blockers away from your body and extending the play by forcing RBs to keep going wide looking for a gap. The typical "off tackle" run, be it a sweep, power, stretch or option (aka zone read) has the TB or running QB looking for a hole outside or just inside of the DE depending on how it's blocked and defended. This is the essence of the "one cut" system most teams use and refer to, you move laterally and one cut into a gap, regardless of where it forms. It's not power blocking, it's zone blocking and it makes so so OLs perform much better when working as a cohesive unit. You're not relying on brute force and positioning yourself in a hole to wall off defenders, you're moving them laterally and looking for a crease.

So, good zone teams will eat up any defense that doesn't set the edge. That edge, is where the RB wants to go, that edge can be created by a DE/LB getting too wide and creating a gap, something we did with seeming regularity the past two years. Guys like DaMontre Moore and Robert Ayers are usually guilty of either turning their bodies to keep the OL from getting his hands on them or simply getting too wide in hopes of using speed to stop the run. It rarely works that way. What we lost when Justin Tuck went west was that ability to set the edge and last night it may have re-emerged in our new rookie DE. A DE who can set the edge allows CBs, Ss and LBs to get to the play, fill gaps, eliminate cut back lanes and stifle a running game before it gets going. It's team run defense, something we did exceptionally well against the Texans 2 years ago when Arian Foster was gashing teams at will. It allows DBs to become big parts of the run defense instead of being downfield targets for wandering lineman. It allows LBs the freedom to marshal their gaps and make a play when the RB slips into one.

By setting the edge, a DE refuses to let the OT dictate the play, it forces OGs to stay in tight in hopes of forcing the DE to crash in or go wide. Keeping the guards in, keeps your LBs and DBs free to clean up, so the entire action of setting the edge has a huge domino effect on the run defense. It all all all starts up front, always has and always will. I see comparisons of our talent to the 2007 and 2011 teams, noting that the LB and DB talent wasn't so much better back then and that's partly right. James Butler and Michael Johnson are not exactly world beaters at S, but because of how we dominated up front.

Odighi did that to perfection last night, he kept his gap controlled, strung the play out wide and most importantly turned his shoulders (what we used to call screwing down) to a 45 degree angle with his outside arm free and forced the run back inside where his teammates were waiting. That is one thing Spags' DL did with regularity, they did not allow themselves to get upfield too quickly, get too wide too fast or be down blocked and give up the edge. It was only a few plays to his side that it happened but it was a big big bright spot not only for him but for having Spags in here. On a forgettable night with errors galore, one very bright spot was the play of Odighizuwa and his ability to play sound, fundamental, run crushing defense from the DE spot.
Thanks Joey.  
section125 : 8/30/2015 11:29 am : link
Fundamental football - what a novel idea. For a supposedly strict disciplinarian like TC, these DEs (and LBs) don't seem capable of playing basic football.
haven't seen the game yet  
nyynyg : 8/30/2015 11:30 am : link
will look for this.

good post.
You can't really expect Moore to set an edge  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/30/2015 11:32 am : link
Physically he can't hold up against an offensive tackle trying to bulldoze. The math doesn't work there.

No excuse for Ayers not being able to do it.
Great post. Banks should be in the HOF for setting the edge.  
baadbill : 8/30/2015 11:37 am : link
Nobody better. Ever.
RE: You can't really expect Moore to set an edge  
HomerJones45 : 8/30/2015 11:37 am : link
In comment 12442792 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Physically he can't hold up against an offensive tackle trying to bulldoze. The math doesn't work there.

No excuse for Ayers not being able to do it.
Nonsense. He's got to recognize and string the play out. He's capable of doing that, but he's a dope who hasn't passed up a fake yet or learned to recognize anything.
Joey good stuff  
Headhunter : 8/30/2015 11:37 am : link
break down Bromley last night objectively and based on each play without preconceived notions
RE: RE: You can't really expect Moore to set an edge  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/30/2015 11:41 am : link
In comment 12442796 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 12442792 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Physically he can't hold up against an offensive tackle trying to bulldoze. The math doesn't work there.

No excuse for Ayers not being able to do it.

Nonsense. He's got to recognize and string the play out. He's capable of doing that, but he's a dope who hasn't passed up a fake yet or learned to recognize anything.


250 pounds (advertised as) isn't dictating the pace vs an NFL offensive tackle. He's a speed rusher.

Osi could rarely do it at 260-270.
At least OO  
PEEJ : 8/30/2015 11:42 am : link
didn't get suckered on the end around like last week. He's a quick study
thanks Joey  
hitdog42 : 8/30/2015 11:42 am : link
its why he should start...
PLaying a mediocre 3-4 DT at DE... or guys who are at best career 3rd DEs... is just pointless.

He and Kennard combined can be part of the answer.
I'm surprised Moore can't put on any weight  
widmerseyebrow : 8/30/2015 12:06 pm : link
at 6'5". 250 doesn't cut it, situational or not.
Great  
AcidTest : 8/30/2015 12:06 pm : link
post. What's particularly impressive about OO is that IIRC, he came from a 3-4 at UCLA. So he's had to adjust to a 4-3, in addition to being a rookie.
RE: RE: RE: You can't really expect Moore to set an edge  
section125 : 8/30/2015 12:08 pm : link
In comment 12442803 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 12442796 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


In comment 12442792 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Physically he can't hold up against an offensive tackle trying to bulldoze. The math doesn't work there.

No excuse for Ayers not being able to do it.

Nonsense. He's got to recognize and string the play out. He's capable of doing that, but he's a dope who hasn't passed up a fake yet or learned to recognize anything.



250 pounds (advertised as) isn't dictating the pace vs an NFL offensive tackle. He's a speed rusher.

Osi could rarely do it at 260-270.


IIRC, Osi played at 255/258 as did Michael his last two years.
Different body type, possibly.
O2 was our best player on defense last night  
Torrag : 8/30/2015 12:12 pm : link
I liked seeing him get fired up out there and make some plays. Ton of potential with this young man. Defensive ends that can't set the edge make me knash my teeth. Loved Osi but this was an issue with his game throughout his career.
JPP  
KWALL2 : 8/30/2015 12:26 pm : link
Excelled here. It didnt leave when Tuck left. We still had one guy. The problem was the other side. Odi would have been that guy and given us a pair of outstanding DE vs the run. That's why I wanted him on the Giants.

without JPP, we still need another. I don't believe in Selvie. I don't like Jenkins out there. I think it has to be Wynn.
Wynn has outplayed Moore and Selvie so far  
Torrag : 8/30/2015 12:32 pm : link
I hope was hoping Damontre would pick it up this year. He's had enough time to improve his core strength and should be the guy the coaches are looking to. It hasn't happened yet.
Moore  
KWALL2 : 8/30/2015 12:36 pm : link
Is not an option as a full time DE. He's an easy guy to erase in the run game. That CIN game showed nothing changed with Moore. Rookie TEs kicked his ass.
Nice thread. OO was a very good pick.  
Ira : 8/30/2015 12:39 pm : link
He's a solid guy and a solid football player. We still need to see a better pass rush out of our dl - without JPP.
OO and Setting the Edge  
shyster : 8/30/2015 12:51 pm : link
Agree all the way on OO. He was the bright spot.

As for Wynn, I'd like to be positive because we are desperate for another option, but he was poor at holding the edge last night. Also no pressure. He's a name people have become familiar with but, to me, still bears the tag "undrafted for a reason".

Really need JPP.
Thank you Joey  
BigBlueJ : 8/30/2015 1:01 pm : link
Great post.
good  
bc4life : 8/30/2015 1:27 pm : link
post
Excellent post Joey  
Matt M. : 8/30/2015 1:36 pm : link
I agree 100% and actually think his play up to an including last night warrants him starting, which was being discussed on another thread. First, he has the most upside of all the DEs. Second, he has improved each week. Third, as you point out, he is the most fundamentally sound of all the DEs. Don't forget, this is a guy who was mentioned by some as a potential 1st round pick before the draft. I was thrilled we got him, especially where we selected him.

The same can be said of Collins, by the way. I think we got 3 potential 1st round talents with our first 3 picks. All 3 seem poised to either start or make significant contributions from day one.
Good post Joey  
Watson : 8/30/2015 1:49 pm : link

I also thought Odighi had his best game yet. What is nice to see is that he's progressively getting better.

It wasn't Wynn's best night but will give him a pass, still making transition from DT in college to DE. Imo at some point Odighi will start with Wynn getting snaps in rotation. If Wynn just becomes a solid back up for a UDFA that's not a bad outcome. Two young guys manning the left side for several years.

Moore unfortunately has to be considered a situational pass rusher but if he can fill that role well (Osi like) not the worst outcome for a 3 pick.

After watching pre-season so far, clearly see why NYG willing to pay JPP the tag price.
Fundamentals are not boring.  
TheBigBlueOne : 8/30/2015 1:52 pm : link
I like learning new things.
Odi  
giantgiantfan : 8/30/2015 1:56 pm : link
has a shot to be Tuck 2.0, it will take a season, but he's got the tools.
That's a really good post Joey  
B in ALB : 8/30/2015 1:58 pm : link
At one point both OO and Kennard were in the game and the Jets attempted an off tackle run in the first quarter where OO set the edge perfectly, maintained his gap responsibility and Kennard came in to instantly fill the hole to tackle the runner.

My son who typically plays O or D Tackle was watching with me - he's getting more reps at DE now - and we both mentioned how well OO did setting the edge allowing his teammate to fly in and make a play. It was technical, fast, smart and violent. Really well done by both guys.
RE: RE: RE: RE: You can't really expect Moore to set an edge  
TommyWiseau : 8/30/2015 2:05 pm : link
In comment 12442842 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 12442803 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


In comment 12442796 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


In comment 12442792 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Physically he can't hold up against an offensive tackle trying to bulldoze. The math doesn't work there.

No excuse for Ayers not being able to do it.

Nonsense. He's got to recognize and string the play out. He's capable of doing that, but he's a dope who hasn't passed up a fake yet or learned to recognize anything.



250 pounds (advertised as) isn't dictating the pace vs an NFL offensive tackle. He's a speed rusher.

Osi could rarely do it at 260-270.



IIRC, Osi played at 255/258 as did Michael his last two years.
Different body type, possibly.


According to a Radio Interview with Renaldo Wynn back in 2008 (I believe), Osi played as low as 245 that season. Wynn sounded shocked that then Defensive Line Coach Mike Waufle did not have a weight requirement for his lineman. "As long as they can get the job done" was Coach Waufle's reasoning.
good post joey  
mdc1 : 8/30/2015 2:09 pm : link
and I thought Odighizuwa look good as well. Refreshing to see his technique on the edge.
Seems simple, but part of it is the age we live in.  
RDJR : 8/30/2015 2:09 pm : link
No glory in setting the edge. No stats, no chest thumping, less $$. Damontre wants a sack on every play. Takes a lot of discipline and a team oriented guy. In this day and age they are hard to find.
nice post  
grizz299 : 8/30/2015 2:43 pm : link
Thank you, Joey
When I was watching the game last night  
Phil in LA : 8/30/2015 2:52 pm : link
and seeing Owa do just that, I was hoping you were watching, too, Joey. Been too long.
A glimmer  
Les in TO : 8/30/2015 3:29 pm : link
Of hope. We will need that effort against the cowboys
Remember Old Double O, Jim Otto ? ...  
Manny in CA : 8/30/2015 5:08 pm : link
(An offensive lineman), any NFL rule that would prevent Odi from wearing "OO" ?
I'm looking at a list of BBI handles here...  
Racer : 8/31/2015 9:24 am : link
...on a post-it note that I check daily to read what they have to say so I can learn more about that game. This one in particular has a reply from another which is usually a bonus. I didn't come up with the list entirely on my own either, most of them come up whenever the annual 'who are the best football guys on BBI' thread. I guess if you need a reason to contribute to BBI, here's some timely motivation.

Thanks for taking the time, Joey.
Good post  
dorgan : 8/31/2015 10:23 am : link
Joey.
Not bad for a meathead like you.


I don't believe JPP will be back this season, but if he makes it back, will Spagnuolo break him of crashing inside?

I think so.
I think that was by design (one of PF's half baked theories).

Keep posting. Especially when you're angry. It's like looking in a mirror for me.
RE: Good post  
giants#1 : 8/31/2015 10:27 am : link
In comment 12444405 dorgan said:
Quote:
Joey.
Not bad for a meathead like you.


I don't believe JPP will be back this season, but if he makes it back, will Spagnuolo break him of crashing inside?

I think so.
I think that was by design (one of PF's half baked theories).

Keep posting. Especially when you're angry. It's like looking in a mirror for me.


I was optimistic that this would happen when he still had all his fingers. Now, not so much. Camp would've been invaluable in terms of breaking his bad habits (even if he was "coached" to do it that way).
Thanks, Joey.  
BrettNYG10 : 8/31/2015 10:29 am : link
.
neither Ayers or Moore demonstrates a consistent ability to set  
JonC : 8/31/2015 10:32 am : link
the edge, neither plays with a great deal of strength or leverage, and Jenkins struggled trying to do it against the Jets.

Kennard does it well, along with O2, but we're thin on edge talent especially without JPP.
RE: thanks Joey  
rich in DC : 8/31/2015 11:30 am : link
In comment 12442806 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
its why he should start...
PLaying a mediocre 3-4 DT at DE... or guys who are at best career 3rd DEs... is just pointless.

He and Kennard combined can be part of the answer.


In a sort of odd, but logical way, I think playing the 3-4 in college actually has been invaluable to his development in the NFL. Remember that the role of a 3-4 DE is actually to contain first, pass rush second. Basically, a DE does his job when he forces the runner inside, right into one of the LB.

IN OO's case, I think that as he learns when to rush and when to contain, he will start. The NFL is tough on rookies, who have never played 16 games before- it won't be the worst thing in the world for OO to be a rotational guy for half the season or so.
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