in the same way everyone spoke about Farve late in his career. And I agree with it. Eli has earned the right to make mistakes, but they are still inexcusable.
This sounds pretty stupid, I know, but he needs to be benched. Benching him is the only way to tell him thats its inexcusable. Laugh all you want. Eli can say all the right things "Its on me", "I'm accountable" blah blah, but then expect to go out their again with a clean slate.
Bench him for one series and the whole dynamic changes. Talk doesn't keep you on the field. And if he can't keep himself on the field, he and his agent are going to have a pretty tough time negiotiating an extention.
Who here remembers how much Parcells would get in Simms' face, even after he was an established Pro-Bowler/Superbowl MVP who knew how to say all the right things?
-- it will mute any bargaining strength they have with one of them using the Franchise tag - I seriously doubt Reese will let that happen - and the Giants FO has already indicated that they think they will get the Eli extension done either before the season starts or early in the season --
whatever your opinion of Eli is - the FO wants to keep him -- he will be extended this year and Prince's Contract will probably be addressed before the season ends -- Eli will get a contract in the range of Big Ben and Rivers -- probably more than Rivers -- his preseason performance will not effect that
Like it or not they are both key personnel on the Giants -- I don't think the Giants view Eli as past his peak, or not in his prime -- I also think they still appreciate him --
Eric's scenario is his idea of what's prudent -- but he has often taken positions like that - that do not reflect the FO's or the Coach's approach to things - and I think it is an extension of his frustration with what he is seeing
Another thing regarding preseason, Nassib has more incentive than Eli to look better, and perform in the preseason - Eli just has to get into rhythm while they are experimenting with the OLine and the WR sets which are still very embryonic scheme wise - even vanilla -- and he did show improvement in game 3 over game 2 rhythm wise -- Nassib has to show he belongs out there and that he can produce -- his play has more of an edge to it and he takes far more risks because of it -- I do think that Nassib continues to improve -- but he is also still a little rough and a little wild out there and this against the scrub units
while it's bad for Eli to throw an interception -- it's also possible that his throw was a timing pattern, and that he, and whichever receiver was supposed to be where he threw, were not on the same page -- we don't and probably won't know what happened there --
I'm not saying I like what I'm seeing right now, but the above has all been signaled and should be food for thought
is that rational discussion probably ended at this line:
Quote:
But when a 12 year veteran makes a horrific, rookie mistake like throwing a short pass over the middle with 16 seconds on the clock - and this is a guy who has a history of alternating good seasons with bad seasons with a lot of bonehead mistakes - it raises a level of concern.
Let me reiterate - this observation was made from a preseason game! In preseason where Eli is traditionally not only mediocre, but sometimes terrible. So, this one play is being called indefensible - it is being called horrific and it is being used as the lynchpin to determine if Eli really is an elite QB.
All other discussion aside - this is a perfect example of why people continually act like the world is ending and act like this team perpetually puts in Redskin-like 4-12 records. The last time the Giants went 4-12 was 2003.
But read some threads and you'd think we are the Browns or Jags.
RE: if the Giants don't extend either Eil or Prince before the season ends
-- it will mute any bargaining strength they have with one of them using the Franchise tag - I seriously doubt Reese will let that happen - and the Giants FO has already indicated that they think they will get the Eli extension done either before the season starts or early in the season --
whatever your opinion of Eli is - the FO wants to keep him -- he will be extended this year and Prince's Contract will probably be addressed before the season ends -- Eli will get a contract in the range of Big Ben and Rivers -- probably more than Rivers -- his preseason performance will not effect that
Like it or not they are both key personnel on the Giants -- I don't think the Giants view Eli as past his peak, or not in his prime -- I also think they still appreciate him --
Eric's scenario is his idea of what's prudent -- but he has often taken positions like that - that do not reflect the FO's or the Coach's approach to things - and I think it is an extension of his frustration with what he is seeing
Another thing regarding preseason, Nassib has more incentive than Eli to look better, and perform in the preseason - Eli just has to get into rhythm while they are experimenting with the OLine and the WR sets which are still very embryonic scheme wise - even vanilla -- and he did show improvement in game 3 over game 2 rhythm wise -- Nassib has to show he belongs out there and that he can produce -- his play has more of an edge to it and he takes far more risks because of it -- I do think that Nassib continues to improve -- but he is also still a little rough and a little wild out there and this against the scrub units
while it's bad for Eli to throw an interception -- it's also possible that his throw was a timing pattern, and that he, and whichever receiver was supposed to be where he threw, were not on the same page -- we don't and probably won't know what happened there --
I'm not saying I like what I'm seeing right now, but the above has all been signaled and should be food for thought
I was going to post but this says everything I would have and says it better.
... But read some threads and you'd think we are the Browns or Jags.
When you talk defense, the Giants might wish they were as good as the Browns or Jags. The Giants will likely struggle all season long to avoid being the worst defensive team in football.
RE: if the Giants don't extend either Eil or Prince before the season ends
-- it will mute any bargaining strength they have with one of them using the Franchise tag - I seriously doubt Reese will let that happen - and the Giants FO has already indicated that they think they will get the Eli extension done either before the season starts or early in the season --
whatever your opinion of Eli is - the FO wants to keep him -- he will be extended this year and Prince's Contract will probably be addressed before the season ends -- Eli will get a contract in the range of Big Ben and Rivers -- probably more than Rivers -- his preseason performance will not effect that
Like it or not they are both key personnel on the Giants -- I don't think the Giants view Eli as past his peak, or not in his prime -- I also think they still appreciate him --
Eric's scenario is his idea of what's prudent -- but he has often taken positions like that - that do not reflect the FO's or the Coach's approach to things - and I think it is an extension of his frustration with what he is seeing
Another thing regarding preseason, Nassib has more incentive than Eli to look better, and perform in the preseason - Eli just has to get into rhythm while they are experimenting with the OLine and the WR sets which are still very embryonic scheme wise - even vanilla -- and he did show improvement in game 3 over game 2 rhythm wise -- Nassib has to show he belongs out there and that he can produce -- his play has more of an edge to it and he takes far more risks because of it -- I do think that Nassib continues to improve -- but he is also still a little rough and a little wild out there and this against the scrub units
while it's bad for Eli to throw an interception -- it's also possible that his throw was a timing pattern, and that he, and whichever receiver was supposed to be where he threw, were not on the same page -- we don't and probably won't know what happened there --
I'm not saying I like what I'm seeing right now, but the above has all been signaled and should be food for thought
Great post, particularly the point that Nassib has a much greater incentive to perform in practice games.
Look, I love Eli, I firmly believe that he is the best option for this team for at least the next five or so seasons. To me that does not change even if a new staff is brought in. Frankly, I would be leery of staff that did not want Eli.
I also know Eli will not be QB for life, but I dread the day he goes.
Also, and this is nothing against the guy, but based on the mountain of failed QB's in this league I feel very confident saying that Nassib will likely not make much noise in the NFL and certainly will not approach the accomplishments of Manning.
-- it will mute any bargaining strength they have with one of them using the Franchise tag - I seriously doubt Reese will let that happen - and the Giants FO has already indicated that they think they will get the Eli extension done either before the season starts or early in the season --
whatever your opinion of Eli is - the FO wants to keep him -- he will be extended this year and Prince's Contract will probably be addressed before the season ends -- Eli will get a contract in the range of Big Ben and Rivers -- probably more than Rivers -- his preseason performance will not effect that
Like it or not they are both key personnel on the Giants -- I don't think the Giants view Eli as past his peak, or not in his prime -- I also think they still appreciate him --
Eric's scenario is his idea of what's prudent -- but he has often taken positions like that - that do not reflect the FO's or the Coach's approach to things - and I think it is an extension of his frustration with what he is seeing
Another thing regarding preseason, Nassib has more incentive than Eli to look better, and perform in the preseason - Eli just has to get into rhythm while they are experimenting with the OLine and the WR sets which are still very embryonic scheme wise - even vanilla -- and he did show improvement in game 3 over game 2 rhythm wise -- Nassib has to show he belongs out there and that he can produce -- his play has more of an edge to it and he takes far more risks because of it -- I do think that Nassib continues to improve -- but he is also still a little rough and a little wild out there and this against the scrub units
while it's bad for Eli to throw an interception -- it's also possible that his throw was a timing pattern, and that he, and whichever receiver was supposed to be where he threw, were not on the same page -- we don't and probably won't know what happened there --
I'm not saying I like what I'm seeing right now, but the above has all been signaled and should be food for thought
This was an excellent post.
I will add that the comments made by Eric and others that this is a playoff or bust season for the coaching staff/front office is crazy. This team is going to have to be historically bad for TC and gang to be canned. Maybe this negative Eric is really just Superstitious Eric in disguise who is playing mental games with the football gods???
This is a bad team. And I'm sorry, but Reese should not get a pass if
1) As stated the defense sucks. Odi was really the only bright spot. Encouraging also was that Collins played. At last a guy with quick recovery powers.
2) Kuhn STINKS. That he not only plays but starts, it can only mean 1 of 2 things: The coaches are seeing something we're not (I don't know what), or Bromley is yet another 3rd round reach/bust by Reese.
3) LBs stink. DEs outside Odi are pedestrian. S is paper thin. That they are even considering Stevie Brown is scary.
4) Question: if the 3rd pre season game is the "dress rehearsal" why is Orleans Darkwa leading the team in carries? Shouldn't Williams/Jennings be carrying the mail getting ready for opening night?
5) YAY Ereck Flowers!!!! A beast! It's fitting that they gave him Jumbo's number.
6) The Eli INT stuff is overblown. Yes, it was a stupid play that he'd like to have back, but Nassib IS NOT better than Eli. And though I understand the point about paying $100 mill to your QB on a rebuilding team, the alternative is that it could take years to find another franchise QB. Dave Brown/Danny Kannell/Kent Graham anyone? Look at the Jets to see your future without Eli.
What have the Chargers won the last 5 years? What have the Steelers won the last 5 years? Both franchises just gave their QB's huge deals because they know they can't easily replace franchise QB's. And we're talking about potentially dumping Eli for Nassib?
they are both a year younger and have no potential candidate to take over- again, assuming they think they have something in Nassib.
Oh, and Hosley still sucks. And as for Dwayne Harris. he is
How many more seasons are we going to talk about that we won in 2011? If the Giants have another disappointing season I believe it's time to rebuild the entire organization from Reese on down.
As for Eli,I don't think he's a great quarterback at all. He's had many great moments and has come up huge at key times but watching every game that he's played in he's way too inconsistent for me to call him anything but an above average quarterback. He will be 35 on his next contract and I would definitely wait and see how he performs this year before signing him to a huge contract. This team doe not appear to be on the brink of winning anything and if the organization believes that we are a few years from contending again, it would not be in the teams best interest to sign an old quarterback to a long term deal.
I get to talk to people all around the country that are football fans. I get to hear first hand what people say about Eli. As we sit here with our Giants blue eye glasses on, it is quite interesting to hear opinions from other teams fans, especially about good Eli, bad Eli - which one will show up. Most of the other team's fans rate Eli mediocre. Problem is, he is not consistent in regular season. He can be brilliant, but he can be head scratching awful. He needs to be very good more often than awful and he is not(except in the playoffs - if he gets the team there.) What they see is 5 ints against a SF 49er team ripe for the taking.
I contend that given two minutes, 80 yds and down by 4, I'd take Eli over any other QB in football - with Brady as the other. And we know how that match up turns out.
What makes Eli an enigma is his two Super Bowl winning drives and then the pedestrian performances the rest of the year.
You all want to take Eric to task for being tired of Eli's ill advised throws when after 12 years he still makes them preseason or regular season - deja vu all over again.
It all comes down to - how can a QB of his ability be so maddeningly inconsistent? But he always has been and will remain so.
The Eli INT stuff is overblown. Yes, it was a stupid play that he'd like to have back, but Nassib IS NOT better than Eli.
Agreed that it is overblown, but that is not the point. Nor is the point that Nassib is better at this point. He isn't. Nor is the issue whether Eli is better than the other 51 shlubs. He is.
The issue is whether Nassib is your qb of the future and do you commit $100 million of cap money to a 34 year old and lose Nassib? That is not an unreasonable question.
And please let's stop with the "franchise qb" bullshit. What the hell is a "franchise qb" anyway?
The Eli INT stuff is overblown. Yes, it was a stupid play that he'd like to have back, but Nassib IS NOT better than Eli.
Agreed that it is overblown, but that is not the point. Nor is the point that Nassib is better at this point. He isn't. Nor is the issue whether Eli is better than the other 51 shlubs. He is.
The issue is whether Nassib is your qb of the future and do you commit $100 million of cap money to a 34 year old and lose Nassib? That is not an unreasonable question.
And please let's stop with the "franchise qb" bullshit. What the hell is a "franchise qb" anyway?
Homer, I did not say it wasn't a legit question, I understand the point. Just pointing out the difficulty of finding another QB. The post Phil Simms era was not pretty. It took 6 years just to get to Kerry Collins.
The Eli INT stuff is overblown. Yes, it was a stupid play that he'd like to have back, but Nassib IS NOT better than Eli.
Agreed that it is overblown, but that is not the point. Nor is the point that Nassib is better at this point. He isn't. Nor is the issue whether Eli is better than the other 51 shlubs. He is.
The issue is whether Nassib is your qb of the future and do you commit $100 million of cap money to a 34 year old and lose Nassib? That is not an unreasonable question.
And please let's stop with the "franchise qb" bullshit. What the hell is a "franchise qb" anyway?
I don't think Ryan is our QB of the future.
I like him a lot and am of the few here that defended the choice to draft him.
I remember countless threads where he was referred to as a wasted pick. Now, some think he's the heir apparent?
Has to be some broken ankles in the ranks of BBI with that kind of change of direction.
The interception was a very stupid play by a very smart QB.
No way to defend it. He knows better. Anytime you pass the ball, you put the ball at risk. The reward has to be greater than the risk. There was nothing to be gained if the pass was complete.
Eli has probably been kicking his own ass for that choice.
Not sure how much Eli is worth, but to be fair - no one could have played well behind that 2013 O-Line. Wasn't that the year they averaged about 90 yards rushing per game?
I would be more inclined to give Nassib the nod. That might not make sense.... but what good is an inexperience QB if your OLine cant block or cant run the ball? He wont have a chance to shine.
If you are going to have a cheap, inexperience QB.... you need a great OLine, a great RB, and a dominant defense. We dont have those other luxuries.
I get to talk to people all around the country that are football fans. I get to hear first hand what people say about Eli. As we sit here with our Giants blue eye glasses on, it is quite interesting to hear opinions from other teams fans, especially about good Eli, bad Eli - which one will show up. Most of the other team's fans rate Eli mediocre. Problem is, he is not consistent in regular season. He can be brilliant, but he can be head scratching awful. He needs to be very good more often than awful and he is not(except in the playoffs - if he gets the team there.) What they see is 5 ints against a SF 49er team ripe for the taking.
I contend that given two minutes, 80 yds and down by 4, I'd take Eli over any other QB in football - with Brady as the other. And we know how that match up turns out.
What makes Eli an enigma is his two Super Bowl winning drives and then the pedestrian performances the rest of the year.
You all want to take Eric to task for being tired of Eli's ill advised throws when after 12 years he still makes them preseason or regular season - deja vu all over again.
It all comes down to - how can a QB of his ability be so maddeningly inconsistent? But he always has been and will remain so.
Well said and consistent with my discussions with non-Giants fans.
Eli's greatest strength - his fearlessness - is also a weakness - it sometimes leads to risky throws. I think he hates it when he has to check down or throw the ball away...he would rather take a 25/75 chance on a well covered deep ball than a 80/20 chance on a check down. I just wished he toned down the gunslinger mentality a bit and take what the defense gives him more often. He can make the jaw dropping plays that win super bowls, but he can just as often make the head slapping plays that end up on the blooper reels.
Nassib is a huge question mark. Nobody knows whether he can succeed Eli. He's played well in the preseason, which is to his credit. But he's never played in a regular season game. Whether he can succeed Eli is a decision that management may well have to make without this ever happening. The future of this team for the next ten years could depend on getting that decision correct.
Eli's worst line, the 2013 line, gave up less sacks than Green Bay's, IIRC. I don't think Aaron Rodgers has ever been sacked less than Eli in a season when he played a full season.
That year the Giants were only 21st in sacks allowed and that with an immobile QB.
Now the 2013 line was beyond abysmal because they couldn't run block.
I didn't think anything Eric wrote was so off-the-wall; clearly, he is frustrated like the rest of us, probably more with the aggregate of Reese's personnel decisions and the impacts they have had on the caliber of this roster. But since Reese seems "safe" with the Maras, the focus is the product on the field. And it is quite uneven, at best.
The issue of Eli's longevity and tenure with this team is not negligible. If it were, he would have been extended already. There are many issues in play, and Eric adduces some of them.
Nassib's play has made the Eli question more relevant, because, finally, you can see the promise. I think gidiefor's post, while excellent and perhaps spot on, perhaps not, is off base in asserting that the Nassib factor in all this is overplayed because he has more incentive to perform in the pre-season than does Eli.
That's not the point at all: the point is that he has performed well, whatever the prompts or incentive, i.e., he can perform. Some of his plays have been eye-opening, and usually with the spotty 2nds and 3rds. And, of course, it is not ripe to have a discussion of Eli vs. Nassib as the future QB of the Giants, way pre-mature. But Eric is not wrong to say that in this pre-season, Nassib has played better.
Eli's worst line, the 2013 line, gave up less sacks than Green Bay's, IIRC. I don't think Aaron Rodgers has ever been sacked less than Eli in a season when he played a full season.
That year the Giants were only 21st in sacks allowed and that with an immobile QB.
Now the 2013 line was beyond abysmal because they couldn't run block. NFL Stats 2013 - ( New Window )
Eli's worst line, the 2013 line, gave up less sacks than Green Bay's, IIRC. I don't think Aaron Rodgers has ever been sacked less than Eli in a season when he played a full season.
That year the Giants were only 21st in sacks allowed and that with an immobile QB.
Now the 2013 line was beyond abysmal because they couldn't run block. NFL Stats 2013 - ( New Window )
There was nothing positive about that 2013 line.
Missed my point. As bad as that line was(it sucked - mayb the worst Giants oline in 20 years) they were only 21st in sacks allowed. Green Bay with a mobile Aaron Rodgers gave up 45. So SHo saying Eli should have blocked for himself needs to be put against the Packers line that gave up 5 more sacks with a better and more mobile QB.
in the same way everyone spoke about Farve late in his career. And I agree with it. Eli has earned the right to make mistakes, but they are still inexcusable.
This sounds pretty stupid, I know, but he needs to be benched. Benching him is the only way to tell him thats its inexcusable. Laugh all you want. Eli can say all the right things "Its on me", "I'm accountable" blah blah, but then expect to go out their again with a clean slate.
Bench him for one series and the whole dynamic changes. Talk doesn't keep you on the field. And if he can't keep himself on the field, he and his agent are going to have a pretty tough time negiotiating an extention.
Who here remembers how much Parcells would get in Simms' face, even after he was an established Pro-Bowler/Superbowl MVP who knew how to say all the right things?
That's something I've been saying all offseason. If he is still doing the same ole Eli crap, he needs to sit on the bench for a while. He looks way too comfortable walking back to the bench with that awe shucks look on his face.
One thing that made Joe Montana one of the best QBs ever was after he got benched for Young. After he got benched a couple times, they came back to him and he was lights out. Sometimes players need to be motivated and I think Eli is one of those players.
then maybe you should get your money back and scoot. I think this thread handles the subject well and I think a 20 million dollar a year contract is worth talking about.
It's a damn shame that you can't talk reasonably about Eli without being damned. I am an Eli fan and I have supported him vociferiously from his start in San Diego and I've done that when the polarities were reversed and it was as unpopular to support as it is to question now.
I think we don't know what the coaches think of Nassib. And that's what counts. I think it's not impossible that they are very high on him and particularly like him in the Macadoo offensive.
IF that is so does it work down to not who is better Eli or Nassib...but what is better Eli or Nassib and five to six top flight free agents.
In this entire thread there isn't a hint that that's the real argument, nor that we don't know enough to provide an answer.
Ryan Nassib move. Nonsense like that is partly why the move on from Eli side gets such shit.
And, for the love of God, whoever is doing it, please stop using sacks as definitive evidence of OL play and stop spouting untrue cliches about mobility being in step with sack avoidance skills (probably the best QB in this area ever is Peyton Manning, for fuck's sake). Aaron Rodgers is an incredible QB, inarguably significantly better than Eli, but his one flaw is that he's prone to holding the ball longer than he often should, inflating sack and hit numbers (which is still a better flaw than just chucking the ball up to get it out and turnin it over, to be fair).
Yup...if they extend Eli, they need to trade Nassib before he hits the open market.
There should be quite a market for him.
If Eli is still playing like crap by week 4 or 5, meaning he doesn't have at least two very good games,then I want to see Nassib come in and make some starts. We can get an idea of how well Nassib can handle real games and it should help Eli better focus on performing at the level we all know he should be playing on.
Eli's worst line, the 2013 line, gave up less sacks than Green Bay's, IIRC. I don't think Aaron Rodgers has ever been sacked less than Eli in a season when he played a full season.
That year the Giants were only 21st in sacks allowed and that with an immobile QB.
Now the 2013 line was beyond abysmal because they couldn't run block. NFL Stats 2013 - ( New Window )
That is because Eli gets rid of the ball faster than most, doesn't he?
in the same way everyone spoke about Farve late in his career. And I agree with it. Eli has earned the right to make mistakes, but they are still inexcusable.
This sounds pretty stupid, I know, but he needs to be benched. Benching him is the only way to tell him thats its inexcusable. Laugh all you want. Eli can say all the right things "Its on me", "I'm accountable" blah blah, but then expect to go out their again with a clean slate.
Bench him for one series and the whole dynamic changes. Talk doesn't keep you on the field. And if he can't keep himself on the field, he and his agent are going to have a pretty tough time negiotiating an extention.
Who here remembers how much Parcells would get in Simms' face, even after he was an established Pro-Bowler/Superbowl MVP who knew how to say all the right things?
That's something I've been saying all offseason. If he is still doing the same ole Eli crap, he needs to sit on the bench for a while. He looks way too comfortable walking back to the bench with that awe shucks look on his face.
One thing that made Joe Montana one of the best QBs ever was after he got benched for Young. After he got benched a couple times, they came back to him and he was lights out. Sometimes players need to be motivated and I think Eli is one of those players.
Why should anyone believe that what they have seen all preseason from this team and its QB is just a mirage. The team has two consecutive bad seasons and now a mediocre preseason and yet anyone being critical is characterized as negative and an alarmist. Actually, no matter what happens in the upcoming season the effort this preseason has been pathetic. Injuries, age and inexperience all combining to produce three poor performances. So let's hope that the optimists are right. Let's hope that it's just a matter of time before Spags' defense kicks in. Let's hope that it is just Eli being preseason Eli and not a return to 2013. But let's not trash anyone who chooses to judge based upon their eyes and not their heart.
if he looked like a square peg in the new offense, I think there's a good chance we were going to move on. IMO we got confirmation from the year Eli put in that 2013 was an outlier season. That 2013 season was single handedly destroyed by an OL that was rotting from the interior. How long does it last? I have no idea. I hope we get creative with the contract so both sides feel like they won. Eli should make Rivers/Ben type of money.
in the same way everyone spoke about Farve late in his career. And I agree with it. Eli has earned the right to make mistakes, but they are still inexcusable.
This sounds pretty stupid, I know, but he needs to be benched. Benching him is the only way to tell him thats its inexcusable. Laugh all you want. Eli can say all the right things "Its on me", "I'm accountable" blah blah, but then expect to go out their again with a clean slate.
Bench him for one series and the whole dynamic changes. Talk doesn't keep you on the field. And if he can't keep himself on the field, he and his agent are going to have a pretty tough time negiotiating an extention.
Who here remembers how much Parcells would get in Simms' face, even after he was an established Pro-Bowler/Superbowl MVP who knew how to say all the right things
That's something I've been saying all offseason. If he is still doing the same ole Eli crap, he needs to sit on the bench for a while. He looks way too comfortable walking back to the bench with that awe shucks look on his face.
One thing that made Joe Montana one of the best QBs ever was after he got benched for Young. After he got benched a couple times, they came back to him and he was lights out. Sometimes players need to be motivated and I think Eli is one of those players.
ELI PLAYED VERY WELL LAST YEAR
Eli had a slightly above average year last year, although it was one of his best. If one of the top 3 QBs in the league, Brady, Peyton or Rodgers had a year like his, the writers would be asking if this is the end of their careers. Everybody is holding their breath for him to snap out of it with his full speed mediocrity
This sounds pretty stupid, I know, but he needs to be benched. Benching him is the only way to tell him thats its inexcusable. Laugh all you want. Eli can say all the right things "Its on me", "I'm accountable" blah blah, but then expect to go out their again with a clean slate.
Bench him for one series and the whole dynamic changes. Talk doesn't keep you on the field. And if he can't keep himself on the field, he and his agent are going to have a pretty tough time negiotiating an extention.
Who here remembers how much Parcells would get in Simms' face, even after he was an established Pro-Bowler/Superbowl MVP who knew how to say all the right things?
Can I get my donation $$ back? It's clearly not going toward content, and it's sure as shit not going toward security.
whatever your opinion of Eli is - the FO wants to keep him -- he will be extended this year and Prince's Contract will probably be addressed before the season ends -- Eli will get a contract in the range of Big Ben and Rivers -- probably more than Rivers -- his preseason performance will not effect that
Like it or not they are both key personnel on the Giants -- I don't think the Giants view Eli as past his peak, or not in his prime -- I also think they still appreciate him --
Eric's scenario is his idea of what's prudent -- but he has often taken positions like that - that do not reflect the FO's or the Coach's approach to things - and I think it is an extension of his frustration with what he is seeing
Another thing regarding preseason, Nassib has more incentive than Eli to look better, and perform in the preseason - Eli just has to get into rhythm while they are experimenting with the OLine and the WR sets which are still very embryonic scheme wise - even vanilla -- and he did show improvement in game 3 over game 2 rhythm wise -- Nassib has to show he belongs out there and that he can produce -- his play has more of an edge to it and he takes far more risks because of it -- I do think that Nassib continues to improve -- but he is also still a little rough and a little wild out there and this against the scrub units
while it's bad for Eli to throw an interception -- it's also possible that his throw was a timing pattern, and that he, and whichever receiver was supposed to be where he threw, were not on the same page -- we don't and probably won't know what happened there --
I'm not saying I like what I'm seeing right now, but the above has all been signaled and should be food for thought
Let me reiterate - this observation was made from a preseason game! In preseason where Eli is traditionally not only mediocre, but sometimes terrible. So, this one play is being called indefensible - it is being called horrific and it is being used as the lynchpin to determine if Eli really is an elite QB.
All other discussion aside - this is a perfect example of why people continually act like the world is ending and act like this team perpetually puts in Redskin-like 4-12 records. The last time the Giants went 4-12 was 2003.
But read some threads and you'd think we are the Browns or Jags.
whatever your opinion of Eli is - the FO wants to keep him -- he will be extended this year and Prince's Contract will probably be addressed before the season ends -- Eli will get a contract in the range of Big Ben and Rivers -- probably more than Rivers -- his preseason performance will not effect that
Like it or not they are both key personnel on the Giants -- I don't think the Giants view Eli as past his peak, or not in his prime -- I also think they still appreciate him --
Eric's scenario is his idea of what's prudent -- but he has often taken positions like that - that do not reflect the FO's or the Coach's approach to things - and I think it is an extension of his frustration with what he is seeing
Another thing regarding preseason, Nassib has more incentive than Eli to look better, and perform in the preseason - Eli just has to get into rhythm while they are experimenting with the OLine and the WR sets which are still very embryonic scheme wise - even vanilla -- and he did show improvement in game 3 over game 2 rhythm wise -- Nassib has to show he belongs out there and that he can produce -- his play has more of an edge to it and he takes far more risks because of it -- I do think that Nassib continues to improve -- but he is also still a little rough and a little wild out there and this against the scrub units
while it's bad for Eli to throw an interception -- it's also possible that his throw was a timing pattern, and that he, and whichever receiver was supposed to be where he threw, were not on the same page -- we don't and probably won't know what happened there --
I'm not saying I like what I'm seeing right now, but the above has all been signaled and should be food for thought
I was going to post but this says everything I would have and says it better.
When you talk defense, the Giants might wish they were as good as the Browns or Jags. The Giants will likely struggle all season long to avoid being the worst defensive team in football.
whatever your opinion of Eli is - the FO wants to keep him -- he will be extended this year and Prince's Contract will probably be addressed before the season ends -- Eli will get a contract in the range of Big Ben and Rivers -- probably more than Rivers -- his preseason performance will not effect that
Like it or not they are both key personnel on the Giants -- I don't think the Giants view Eli as past his peak, or not in his prime -- I also think they still appreciate him --
Eric's scenario is his idea of what's prudent -- but he has often taken positions like that - that do not reflect the FO's or the Coach's approach to things - and I think it is an extension of his frustration with what he is seeing
Another thing regarding preseason, Nassib has more incentive than Eli to look better, and perform in the preseason - Eli just has to get into rhythm while they are experimenting with the OLine and the WR sets which are still very embryonic scheme wise - even vanilla -- and he did show improvement in game 3 over game 2 rhythm wise -- Nassib has to show he belongs out there and that he can produce -- his play has more of an edge to it and he takes far more risks because of it -- I do think that Nassib continues to improve -- but he is also still a little rough and a little wild out there and this against the scrub units
while it's bad for Eli to throw an interception -- it's also possible that his throw was a timing pattern, and that he, and whichever receiver was supposed to be where he threw, were not on the same page -- we don't and probably won't know what happened there --
I'm not saying I like what I'm seeing right now, but the above has all been signaled and should be food for thought
Great post, particularly the point that Nassib has a much greater incentive to perform in practice games.
Look, I love Eli, I firmly believe that he is the best option for this team for at least the next five or so seasons. To me that does not change even if a new staff is brought in. Frankly, I would be leery of staff that did not want Eli.
I also know Eli will not be QB for life, but I dread the day he goes.
Also, and this is nothing against the guy, but based on the mountain of failed QB's in this league I feel very confident saying that Nassib will likely not make much noise in the NFL and certainly will not approach the accomplishments of Manning.
That drive was not perfect, but it looked like a tuneup for the real games.
Can I get my donation $$ back? It's clearly not going toward content, and it's sure as shit not going toward security.
I think this is one of the best sports sites on the interwebs. There is a ton of Giants content here.
whatever your opinion of Eli is - the FO wants to keep him -- he will be extended this year and Prince's Contract will probably be addressed before the season ends -- Eli will get a contract in the range of Big Ben and Rivers -- probably more than Rivers -- his preseason performance will not effect that
Like it or not they are both key personnel on the Giants -- I don't think the Giants view Eli as past his peak, or not in his prime -- I also think they still appreciate him --
Eric's scenario is his idea of what's prudent -- but he has often taken positions like that - that do not reflect the FO's or the Coach's approach to things - and I think it is an extension of his frustration with what he is seeing
Another thing regarding preseason, Nassib has more incentive than Eli to look better, and perform in the preseason - Eli just has to get into rhythm while they are experimenting with the OLine and the WR sets which are still very embryonic scheme wise - even vanilla -- and he did show improvement in game 3 over game 2 rhythm wise -- Nassib has to show he belongs out there and that he can produce -- his play has more of an edge to it and he takes far more risks because of it -- I do think that Nassib continues to improve -- but he is also still a little rough and a little wild out there and this against the scrub units
while it's bad for Eli to throw an interception -- it's also possible that his throw was a timing pattern, and that he, and whichever receiver was supposed to be where he threw, were not on the same page -- we don't and probably won't know what happened there --
I'm not saying I like what I'm seeing right now, but the above has all been signaled and should be food for thought
This was an excellent post.
I will add that the comments made by Eric and others that this is a playoff or bust season for the coaching staff/front office is crazy. This team is going to have to be historically bad for TC and gang to be canned. Maybe this negative Eric is really just Superstitious Eric in disguise who is playing mental games with the football gods???
1) As stated the defense sucks. Odi was really the only bright spot. Encouraging also was that Collins played. At last a guy with quick recovery powers.
2) Kuhn STINKS. That he not only plays but starts, it can only mean 1 of 2 things: The coaches are seeing something we're not (I don't know what), or Bromley is yet another 3rd round reach/bust by Reese.
3) LBs stink. DEs outside Odi are pedestrian. S is paper thin. That they are even considering Stevie Brown is scary.
4) Question: if the 3rd pre season game is the "dress rehearsal" why is Orleans Darkwa leading the team in carries? Shouldn't Williams/Jennings be carrying the mail getting ready for opening night?
5) YAY Ereck Flowers!!!! A beast! It's fitting that they gave him Jumbo's number.
6) The Eli INT stuff is overblown. Yes, it was a stupid play that he'd like to have back, but Nassib IS NOT better than Eli. And though I understand the point about paying $100 mill to your QB on a rebuilding team, the alternative is that it could take years to find another franchise QB. Dave Brown/Danny Kannell/Kent Graham anyone? Look at the Jets to see your future without Eli.
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political threads, now another "Eli sucks!" pre-season thread. Wow.
Can I get my donation $$ back? It's clearly not going toward content, and it's sure as shit not going toward security.
I think this is one of the best sports sites on the interwebs. There is a ton of Giants content here.
drkenneth - I'll happily give you your donation back if you promise to never post again! Just give me an address and tell me how much you donated.
As for Eli,I don't think he's a great quarterback at all. He's had many great moments and has come up huge at key times but watching every game that he's played in he's way too inconsistent for me to call him anything but an above average quarterback. He will be 35 on his next contract and I would definitely wait and see how he performs this year before signing him to a huge contract. This team doe not appear to be on the brink of winning anything and if the organization believes that we are a few years from contending again, it would not be in the teams best interest to sign an old quarterback to a long term deal.
I contend that given two minutes, 80 yds and down by 4, I'd take Eli over any other QB in football - with Brady as the other. And we know how that match up turns out.
What makes Eli an enigma is his two Super Bowl winning drives and then the pedestrian performances the rest of the year.
You all want to take Eric to task for being tired of Eli's ill advised throws when after 12 years he still makes them preseason or regular season - deja vu all over again.
It all comes down to - how can a QB of his ability be so maddeningly inconsistent? But he always has been and will remain so.
Lets move on to discussing the real areas of concern on this team which are bountiful...
Agreed that it is overblown, but that is not the point. Nor is the point that Nassib is better at this point. He isn't. Nor is the issue whether Eli is better than the other 51 shlubs. He is.
The issue is whether Nassib is your qb of the future and do you commit $100 million of cap money to a 34 year old and lose Nassib? That is not an unreasonable question.
And please let's stop with the "franchise qb" bullshit. What the hell is a "franchise qb" anyway?
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The Eli INT stuff is overblown. Yes, it was a stupid play that he'd like to have back, but Nassib IS NOT better than Eli.
Agreed that it is overblown, but that is not the point. Nor is the point that Nassib is better at this point. He isn't. Nor is the issue whether Eli is better than the other 51 shlubs. He is.
The issue is whether Nassib is your qb of the future and do you commit $100 million of cap money to a 34 year old and lose Nassib? That is not an unreasonable question.
And please let's stop with the "franchise qb" bullshit. What the hell is a "franchise qb" anyway?
Homer, I did not say it wasn't a legit question, I understand the point. Just pointing out the difficulty of finding another QB. The post Phil Simms era was not pretty. It took 6 years just to get to Kerry Collins.
no question it is difficult. Do they have one in Nassib? If they think they do, now what?
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The Eli INT stuff is overblown. Yes, it was a stupid play that he'd like to have back, but Nassib IS NOT better than Eli.
Agreed that it is overblown, but that is not the point. Nor is the point that Nassib is better at this point. He isn't. Nor is the issue whether Eli is better than the other 51 shlubs. He is.
The issue is whether Nassib is your qb of the future and do you commit $100 million of cap money to a 34 year old and lose Nassib? That is not an unreasonable question.
And please let's stop with the "franchise qb" bullshit. What the hell is a "franchise qb" anyway?
I don't think Ryan is our QB of the future.
I like him a lot and am of the few here that defended the choice to draft him.
I remember countless threads where he was referred to as a wasted pick. Now, some think he's the heir apparent?
Has to be some broken ankles in the ranks of BBI with that kind of change of direction.
The interception was a very stupid play by a very smart QB.
No way to defend it. He knows better. Anytime you pass the ball, you put the ball at risk. The reward has to be greater than the risk. There was nothing to be gained if the pass was complete.
Eli has probably been kicking his own ass for that choice.
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Just pointing out the difficulty of finding another QB. The post Phil Simms era was not pretty. It took 6 years just to get to Kerry Collins.
no question it is difficult. Do they have one in Nassib? If they think they do, now what?
That's why the GM gets the big bucks and we get to sit here and criticize for free. :-)
Some people on this site have too much time on their hands.
If you are going to have a cheap, inexperience QB.... you need a great OLine, a great RB, and a dominant defense. We dont have those other luxuries.
I contend that given two minutes, 80 yds and down by 4, I'd take Eli over any other QB in football - with Brady as the other. And we know how that match up turns out.
What makes Eli an enigma is his two Super Bowl winning drives and then the pedestrian performances the rest of the year.
You all want to take Eric to task for being tired of Eli's ill advised throws when after 12 years he still makes them preseason or regular season - deja vu all over again.
It all comes down to - how can a QB of his ability be so maddeningly inconsistent? But he always has been and will remain so.
Well said and consistent with my discussions with non-Giants fans.
Eli's greatest strength - his fearlessness - is also a weakness - it sometimes leads to risky throws. I think he hates it when he has to check down or throw the ball away...he would rather take a 25/75 chance on a well covered deep ball than a 80/20 chance on a check down. I just wished he toned down the gunslinger mentality a bit and take what the defense gives him more often. He can make the jaw dropping plays that win super bowls, but he can just as often make the head slapping plays that end up on the blooper reels.
That year the Giants were only 21st in sacks allowed and that with an immobile QB.
Now the 2013 line was beyond abysmal because they couldn't run block.
NFL Stats 2013 - ( New Window )
The issue of Eli's longevity and tenure with this team is not negligible. If it were, he would have been extended already. There are many issues in play, and Eric adduces some of them.
Nassib's play has made the Eli question more relevant, because, finally, you can see the promise. I think gidiefor's post, while excellent and perhaps spot on, perhaps not, is off base in asserting that the Nassib factor in all this is overplayed because he has more incentive to perform in the pre-season than does Eli.
That's not the point at all: the point is that he has performed well, whatever the prompts or incentive, i.e., he can perform. Some of his plays have been eye-opening, and usually with the spotty 2nds and 3rds. And, of course, it is not ripe to have a discussion of Eli vs. Nassib as the future QB of the Giants, way pre-mature. But Eric is not wrong to say that in this pre-season, Nassib has played better.
That year the Giants were only 21st in sacks allowed and that with an immobile QB.
Now the 2013 line was beyond abysmal because they couldn't run block. NFL Stats 2013 - ( New Window )
There was nothing positive about that 2013 line.
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Eli's worst line, the 2013 line, gave up less sacks than Green Bay's, IIRC. I don't think Aaron Rodgers has ever been sacked less than Eli in a season when he played a full season.
That year the Giants were only 21st in sacks allowed and that with an immobile QB.
Now the 2013 line was beyond abysmal because they couldn't run block. NFL Stats 2013 - ( New Window )
There was nothing positive about that 2013 line.
Missed my point. As bad as that line was(it sucked - mayb the worst Giants oline in 20 years) they were only 21st in sacks allowed. Green Bay with a mobile Aaron Rodgers gave up 45. So SHo saying Eli should have blocked for himself needs to be put against the Packers line that gave up 5 more sacks with a better and more mobile QB.
This sounds pretty stupid, I know, but he needs to be benched. Benching him is the only way to tell him thats its inexcusable. Laugh all you want. Eli can say all the right things "Its on me", "I'm accountable" blah blah, but then expect to go out their again with a clean slate.
Bench him for one series and the whole dynamic changes. Talk doesn't keep you on the field. And if he can't keep himself on the field, he and his agent are going to have a pretty tough time negiotiating an extention.
Who here remembers how much Parcells would get in Simms' face, even after he was an established Pro-Bowler/Superbowl MVP who knew how to say all the right things?
That's something I've been saying all offseason. If he is still doing the same ole Eli crap, he needs to sit on the bench for a while. He looks way too comfortable walking back to the bench with that awe shucks look on his face.
One thing that made Joe Montana one of the best QBs ever was after he got benched for Young. After he got benched a couple times, they came back to him and he was lights out. Sometimes players need to be motivated and I think Eli is one of those players.
Regardless of anyone's opinion on the content, it was well written.
then maybe you should get your money back and scoot. I think this thread handles the subject well and I think a 20 million dollar a year contract is worth talking about.
It's a damn shame that you can't talk reasonably about Eli without being damned. I am an Eli fan and I have supported him vociferiously from his start in San Diego and I've done that when the polarities were reversed and it was as unpopular to support as it is to question now.
I think we don't know what the coaches think of Nassib. And that's what counts. I think it's not impossible that they are very high on him and particularly like him in the Macadoo offensive.
IF that is so does it work down to not who is better Eli or Nassib...but what is better Eli or Nassib and five to six top flight free agents.
In this entire thread there isn't a hint that that's the real argument, nor that we don't know enough to provide an answer.
And, for the love of God, whoever is doing it, please stop using sacks as definitive evidence of OL play and stop spouting untrue cliches about mobility being in step with sack avoidance skills (probably the best QB in this area ever is Peyton Manning, for fuck's sake). Aaron Rodgers is an incredible QB, inarguably significantly better than Eli, but his one flaw is that he's prone to holding the ball longer than he often should, inflating sack and hit numbers (which is still a better flaw than just chucking the ball up to get it out and turnin it over, to be fair).
There should be quite a market for him.
If Eli is still playing like crap by week 4 or 5, meaning he doesn't have at least two very good games,then I want to see Nassib come in and make some starts. We can get an idea of how well Nassib can handle real games and it should help Eli better focus on performing at the level we all know he should be playing on.
That year the Giants were only 21st in sacks allowed and that with an immobile QB.
Now the 2013 line was beyond abysmal because they couldn't run block. NFL Stats 2013 - ( New Window )
That is because Eli gets rid of the ball faster than most, doesn't he?
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in the same way everyone spoke about Farve late in his career. And I agree with it. Eli has earned the right to make mistakes, but they are still inexcusable.
This sounds pretty stupid, I know, but he needs to be benched. Benching him is the only way to tell him thats its inexcusable. Laugh all you want. Eli can say all the right things "Its on me", "I'm accountable" blah blah, but then expect to go out their again with a clean slate.
Bench him for one series and the whole dynamic changes. Talk doesn't keep you on the field. And if he can't keep himself on the field, he and his agent are going to have a pretty tough time negiotiating an extention.
Who here remembers how much Parcells would get in Simms' face, even after he was an established Pro-Bowler/Superbowl MVP who knew how to say all the right things?
That's something I've been saying all offseason. If he is still doing the same ole Eli crap, he needs to sit on the bench for a while. He looks way too comfortable walking back to the bench with that awe shucks look on his face.
One thing that made Joe Montana one of the best QBs ever was after he got benched for Young. After he got benched a couple times, they came back to him and he was lights out. Sometimes players need to be motivated and I think Eli is one of those players.
ELI PLAYED VERY WELL LAST YEAR
Don't you remember the Giants regular season record.
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In comment 12444086 WideRight said:
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in the same way everyone spoke about Farve late in his career. And I agree with it. Eli has earned the right to make mistakes, but they are still inexcusable.
This sounds pretty stupid, I know, but he needs to be benched. Benching him is the only way to tell him thats its inexcusable. Laugh all you want. Eli can say all the right things "Its on me", "I'm accountable" blah blah, but then expect to go out their again with a clean slate.
Bench him for one series and the whole dynamic changes. Talk doesn't keep you on the field. And if he can't keep himself on the field, he and his agent are going to have a pretty tough time negiotiating an extention.
Who here remembers how much Parcells would get in Simms' face, even after he was an established Pro-Bowler/Superbowl MVP who knew how to say all the right things
That's something I've been saying all offseason. If he is still doing the same ole Eli crap, he needs to sit on the bench for a while. He looks way too comfortable walking back to the bench with that awe shucks look on his face.
One thing that made Joe Montana one of the best QBs ever was after he got benched for Young. After he got benched a couple times, they came back to him and he was lights out. Sometimes players need to be motivated and I think Eli is one of those players.
ELI PLAYED VERY WELL LAST YEAR
Eli had a slightly above average year last year, although it was one of his best. If one of the top 3 QBs in the league, Brady, Peyton or Rodgers had a year like his, the writers would be asking if this is the end of their careers. Everybody is holding their breath for him to snap out of it with his full speed mediocrity