haha, unlike most posters here, its not getting to me whatsoever. I understand if our team is hurt this bad, and wont return, we are going to be bad.
And when you are missing the majority of your best players, it affects every one else on the team. But if they do come back, I actually think we can surprise too many people.
What I wont do, like many people here, is be influenced by preseason games where people are missing. Oh no Eli threw a pick. Oh no, eli missed a WR. My god, its tiresome and nauseating. I forgot that he is the only QB who makes bad throws a few times again. Every other QB completes 95% of their passes. It's literally like people dont watch other games. Every QB in the league throws bad picks, every QB misses open guys.
Its called football. Most just dont understand it.
1) I really think it is classless to be ripping Eli to this degree based on the preseason. If they come out of the gate and lay an egg, then let the complaints begin in earnest.
2) I think if their holding back Schwartz in preseason pays off and he actually plays, this OL looks a lot better. When he was healthy, last year and this year, the entire OL looked much better.
3) I agree this D has problems and will not be very good. However, I think part of that is Spags' system. He is very reliant on very good DL play. The Giants aren't going to dominate up front, even if they are decent. The rest of the D has to account for that. Right now, I think their biggest problems are a 2nd DE (more in the next point) and no S that is very strong in coverage. If they sign Brown, they have about 5 decent S, but all are best suited for SS at this point.
4) DE - I think Odi should start. He has the most upside and has been the only one to fundamentally set the edge. I honestly don't know who should start opposite him. I was hoping Wynn or Moore would have shown more. But, I do know this experiment with Jenkins at DE should be scrapped. He played decently at DT, but offers nothing at DE.
5) DT - For the umpteenth time, Kuhn should not even be on the roster, so how is he starting?!
6) S - Collins, I think will be a very good S, but is likely to make his share of mistakes. That would be fine if we had a solid FS. Right now, based on a gut instinct really, I think Taylor should start assuming he's healthy. I would also use Merriweather as a 3rd S if they go with that look and he may end up starting at some point, as may Brown. But, none of them are great at protecting the deep part of the field.
7) I also am optimistic that both coordinators are playing very basic looks right now. I expect more from both once the season starts.
8) ST - Can they replace Weatherford adequately at this point? Do they need to? As for the the PR/KR teams, I think this is 100% on Quinn. Every year for the last 5 or 6 years they have had guys come in specifically to return kicks. Almost every one they have put back there has been pedestrian. This is Quinn's coaching, personnel decisions, and schemes. He should have been gone a long time ago. At least, other than the 1 PR for the TD, their punt coverage looked pretty good. They have decent ST players on this roster.
that even with JPP the run D would have looked this bad. He is notoriously terrible at setting the edge. Actually, he's not bad at it; he just doesn't do it. He crashes hard inside just about all the time. Yes, he is one guy who can rush the passer. But, even at that, he massed most of his sacks in the last 4 games against bad teams with nothing on the line but a new deal. It is not like we were likely to get the dominating force of a few years ago, even without the injury.
How is it "ripping" Eli simply to suggest that he earn his next contract first?
The Giants already made him an extremely rich man with his last contract. He's been paid for past performance.
Since 2011 - clearly his best year - he's had one so-so season, his worst year, and then one of his best.
I'm hoping the needle is pointing up on him, but he's 34 and he's not playing particularly well this preseason. He still could still have a monster season, a so-so season, or a bad year in 2015.
I think this is a moot debate because he will be extended soon regardless.
But some hot coaching prospect might not want to come here if he feels he is "saddled" with Eli in 2016 and beyond. There is a risk here either way.
There are Giants fans out there who think Eli sucks. But there are also fans out there who think he can do no wrong. It's not a black-or-white situation.
his contract last year, and nothing he does the preseason is going to rise/or lower his value. Its god damn preseason. I showed you the stats from his last 5 preseason, they are awful.
if he misses throws in the regular season, throws a shit load of bad picks, and is the reason why we win 5-6 games...... sure you can revisit his contract value and question it. But doing so on preseason is just flat out asinine. The Giants probably didnt even scout what the Jets do, they dont look for their weaknesses. They are running certain plays to see what people can do. I would be shocked if they are running 25% of the offense now. and again if a one leg Randle is your number 2 and Preston parker is your number 3, where the hell are you going anyways?
If the giants suck again, the first thing they need to do is cut ties with JPP, Cruz, Beason, Taylor, Prince and all the other guys who are constantly hurt and injured. The ones who are constantly missing practice, missing games during the year, etc....
Those guys have more of a negative impact than anyone else on the team. You need to field a team thats healthy and has been getting all the practice reps in order to be successful.
What are you more upset at? That I am criticizing Eli in the preseason or suggesting they don't extend him now?
:looks at self:
Not upset. Just in awe why people are putting so much stock in his preseason play year after year when its terrible year after year. You would think people would learn this by now. But I guess not.
Let me ask you. What are you more upset about. That I proved that Eli's preseason play does not correlate to his regular season play or that no matter what Eli does, the reality is the Giants will be bad regardless.
You have ALWAYS had a knee-jerk reaction this website to ANY criticism of Eli Manning. It's never his fault in your eyes. It diminishes what you say.
Year after year on this site, in preseason game preview after preseason game preview for 20 years, I have minimized the importance of preseason games. It's on record. Everyone who has read my stuff knows I've said it.
So if Eli is 4-of-16 with a bunch of drops and some overthrows, I don't make much of it.
I also don't get terribly bent out of shape over the over-throw to Beckham.
But when a 12 year veteran makes a horrific, rookie mistake like throwing a short pass over the middle with 16 seconds on the clock - and this is a guy who has a history of alternating good seasons with bad seasons with a lot of bonehead mistakes - it raises a level of concern.
His decision to throw that ball was beyond stupid. It was one of the dumbest plays I've ever seen any Giant make.
All Eric is saying is that if we have another 6-10 season and we have to blow up the team, a team with not much depth, it may not be wise to spend $20 million dollars of your salary cap on an aging QB. I love Eli, but I have to be a Giants fan first. This team as currently constructed is not a playoff team. We have to give our self options just in case Mara blows the whole thing up, which is very good possibility if we miss the playoffs.
You have ALWAYS had a knee-jerk reaction this website to ANY criticism of Eli Manning. It's never his fault in your eyes. It diminishes what you say.
Year after year on this site, in preseason game preview after preseason game preview for 20 years, I have minimized the importance of preseason games. It's on record. Everyone who has read my stuff knows I've said it.
So if Eli is 4-of-16 with a bunch of drops and some overthrows, I don't make much of it.
I also don't get terribly bent out of shape over the over-throw to Beckham.
But when a 12 year veteran makes a horrific, rookie mistake like throwing a short pass over the middle with 16 seconds on the clock - and this is a guy who has a history of alternating good seasons with bad seasons with a lot of bonehead mistakes - it raises a level of concern.
His decision to throw that ball was beyond stupid. It was one of the dumbest plays I've ever seen any Giant make.
and what my knee jerk reaction? That if we are as injured during the regular season as we are now, its not worth getting all worked up about because we are going to stink anwyays. And that judging Eli on preseason games is meaningless because history has shown he doesnt play well in the preseason?
Where is the reaction? You made a comment that he has to earn his contract. And are skeptical he wont because of a preseason game. You are the one over reacting and not putting things into perspective.
How about Eli gets his OLine and his WRs healthy before we judge him. Like I said, he could easily throw for 4,500 yards this year and another 30 TDs, and we can still go 5-11. Is that reason to get rid of him?
All Eric is saying is that if we have another 6-10 season and we have to blow up the team, a team with not much depth, it may not be wise to spend $20 million dollars of your salary cap on an aging QB. I love Eli, but I have to be a Giants fan first. This team as currently constructed is not a playoff team. We have to give our self options just in case Mara blows the whole thing up, which is very good possibility if we miss the playoffs.
There will be close to 20 QBs in the NFl next year that are making over 16 million. Its the price you pay for them. And cap space means a shit of beans if you overpay people who arent as good as their contract appears.
Here's the bigger issue. Lets say Cruz misses a handful of games (a possibility now), Prince misses games again for being hurt. Beatty doesnt recover. Beason misses games. schwartz misses games, JPP doesnt come back...
Wouldnt it be smarter to get rid of those players first because you know..... they are ALWAYS hurt? What good is your team if you rely more on guys who are always hurt than guys who play every game at a pretty high level?
$100 million QBs are paid to carry their team. Eli hasn't carried this team since 2011. That year, he had no defense and no running game. He had Victor and Hakeem and Jake.
You and I disagree on this. You always think it is the fault of the surrounding talent. I think the surrounding talent has had a big role in this, but so has Eli.
I don't think it is that controversial to make an athlete earn his next contract.
Like I said, it's a moot discussion. I hope it doesn't come back to bite the Giants in the ass. I'm rooting for Eli just as much as anyone.
If the Giants are starting completely over next season Â
Not preseason...and I agree with it. If he's still doing this rookie mistake, then when it matters, where this year he can't afford to do it needing utmost to carry this team, this can cost a few games.
Quote:
But when a 12 year veteran makes a horrific, rookie mistake like throwing a short pass over the middle with 16 seconds on the clock - and this is a guy who has a history of alternating good seasons with bad seasons with a lot of bonehead mistakes - it raises a level of concern.
RE: Nassib outplayed Eli last year in the preseason, too Â
$100 million QBs are paid to carry their team. Eli hasn't carried this team since 2011. That year, he had no defense and no running game. He had Victor and Hakeem and Jake.
You and I disagree on this. You always think it is the fault of the surrounding talent. I think the surrounding talent has had a big role in this, but so has Eli.
I don't think it is that controversial to make an athlete earn his next contract.
Like I said, it's a moot discussion. I hope it doesn't come back to bite the Giants in the ass. I'm rooting for Eli just as much as anyone.
Ive said this before and Ill ask this again. Which QBs in the league carry their teams to the playoffs without getting significant help from their teammates.
I would put Luck up there, and maybe Brady (even though he plays for the greatest coach probably in NFL history). Either way, Eli is not as good as those two players.
Guys like Rodgers, Peyton, Ben, Romo have immense talent surrounding them. Eli has 1. If you expect Eli and OBJ to carry you into the playoffs, then you have higher hopes than I do. Ruben Randle wouldnt have been a top 4 WR on teams like Packers and Broncos last year. Preston Parker doesnt even make their team. We know the OLine is dreadful.
I dont care if he makes 5 dollars or 100 million dollars, you cant expect a player or 2 to carry a team. And if you dont think he deserves to get paid next year, thats your opinion. But when guys like cutler, griffin, Kap, and other shitty QBs are making 17-18 million a year, he has every right to ask for more. You know why?
$100 million QBs are paid to carry their team. Eli hasn't carried this team since 2011. That year, he had no defense and no running game. He had Victor and Hakeem and Jake.
You and I disagree on this. You always think it is the fault of the surrounding talent. I think the surrounding talent has had a big role in this, but so has Eli.
I don't think it is that controversial to make an athlete earn his next contract.
Like I said, it's a moot discussion. I hope it doesn't come back to bite the Giants in the ass. I'm rooting for Eli just as much as anyone.
All Eric is saying is that if we have another 6-10 season and we have to blow up the team, a team with not much depth, it may not be wise to spend $20 million dollars of your salary cap on an aging QB. I love Eli, but I have to be a Giants fan first. This team as currently constructed is not a playoff team. We have to give our self options just in case Mara blows the whole thing up, which is very good possibility if we miss the playoffs.
There will be close to 20 QBs in the NFl next year that are making over 16 million. Its the price you pay for them. And cap space means a shit of beans if you overpay people who arent as good as their contract appears.
Here's the bigger issue. Lets say Cruz misses a handful of games (a possibility now), Prince misses games again for being hurt. Beatty doesnt recover. Beason misses games. schwartz misses games, JPP doesnt come back...
Wouldnt it be smarter to get rid of those players first because you know..... they are ALWAYS hurt? What good is your team if you rely more on guys who are always hurt than guys who play every game at a pretty high level?
Prince and JPP don't have a contract pass this season. Beatty, Beason, and Schwartz can all be cut on their current deals. If you resign Eli now and give him 21 mil year, that's 21 mil you are stuck with for the foreseeable future. If you let the season play out and Eli sucks or the Giants completely suck, it gives you the flexibility if you decide to rebuild and go with a younger QB. I love Eli and want to see him finish his career here but I can't take another 6-10 season. Yes the defense is God awful, but a true franchise QB doesn't have 3 losing seasons in a row. He finds ways to win.
Not preseason...and I agree with it. If he's still doing this rookie mistake, then when it matters, where this year he can't afford to do it needing utmost to carry this team, this can cost a few games.
Quote:
But when a 12 year veteran makes a horrific, rookie mistake like throwing a short pass over the middle with 16 seconds on the clock - and this is a guy who has a history of alternating good seasons with bad seasons with a lot of bonehead mistakes - it raises a level of concern.
And heres my point. Every Qb makes these mistakes a few times a year. People just dont realize it. I saw Peyton have the time run out on him when he threw in the middle of the field last year with no timeout. They are mistakes. EVERY QB makes them. Now if he does it every game, sure you can raise a point. But people act like Eli is the only one who makes shitty passes and decisions in the NFL. EVERY QB does.
Prince and JPP don't have a contract pass this season. Beatty, Beason, and Schwartz can all be cut on their current deals. If you resign Eli now and give him 21 mil year, that's 21 mil you are stuck with for the foreseeable future. If you let the season play out and Eli sucks or the Giants completely suck, it gives you the flexibility if you decide to rebuild and go with a younger QB. I love Eli and want to see him finish his career here but I can't take another 6-10 season. Yes the defense is God awful, but a true franchise QB doesn't have 3 losing seasons in a row. He finds ways to win.
And if you let all those players go and fill them with guys who actualyl play and practice every week..... maybe, jsut maybe the team plays better.
And again, your guys expectation of QB play is the most unrealistic I have ever seen. Last year was probably Eli's best season ever, and we went 6-10.
So again, I ask thsi question. If he throws for 4,500 yards and 30 plus TDs and we go 5-11.... are you going to get rid of him because the rest of team sucks? Its just asinine to me.
You are convinced that Eli is one of the best QBs in the NFL.
I think he was the best QB in the playoffs in 2007. I think he was arguably the NFL MVP in 2011.
I think he had a bit of a renaissance in 2014 after a horrible season where HE played awful. You still won't admit to that.
I expect a $100 million quarterback to lift his entire team, especially if he has Odell Beckham.
I'm still optimistic about Eli this year because he has Odell and hopefully Victor Cruz and a QB-friendly system. But if he has another so-so year or worse and he still wants to take up 15 percent of the team's cap, it's probably time to move on.
I said Nassib was out-playing Eli this preseason (he is).
I said the new coaching staff may not want the then 35-year old Manning depending on how he plays in 2015 (not an unreasonable assessment).
It's implied that I think Nassib may be a good future starter in this league (I do).
But I never said bench Manning for Nassib.
Ok Eric, here's a hypothetical question. Eli tanks thsi year, we get rid of TC, and they decide not to resign Eli.
First off, the new coach may want to bring in his OWN QB, making Nassib useless. The QB is going to have to learn the offense, which would take a rookie a few years to get down. Or lets assume it Nassib.... do you think he will have success if his top 3 WRs rarely practice, he is missing 2/5ths of his OLine weekly, and his WRs are among the league leaders in drops? Do you really think we are going to better off?
So again, I ask thsi question. If he throws for 4,500 yards and 30 plus TDs and we go 5-11.... are you going to get rid of him because the rest of team sucks? Its just asinine to me.
Probably not, but again, it depends on the context. Did he make big plays in big moments? How many interceptions did he throw? Was he truly the victim of a bad running game and defense.
The stats don't mean much without context.
And this is not about "me" getting rid of him, but the next coaching staff have the flexibility to make their own decision rather than it being imposed on them by a GM who hasn't done a good job in recent years.
Probably not, but again, it depends on the context. Did he make big plays in big moments? How many interceptions did he throw? Was he truly the victim of a bad running game and defense.
Context is always important. Remember that shitty game Eli had against SF? He was awful. Do you remember that Donnell and Randle both dropped passes in the end zone that would have given them the lead before hsi 5th INT? Amazing how things change when you put context in. How about Cruz's 3 drops agaisnt Arizona in the 4th that lead to their come back. Or his go ahead drive against Dallas that gave them the lead with 3:00 to go only to have the shitty defense give it away. Or his game tying drive against Jax, only for the defense to blow it.
He had some good moments last year that reminded of us of the old Eli, only to be let down by his teammates. It doesnt mean he was perfect. But you said you have to put things in context.....and there are some examples of what people forget when talking about him.
First off, the new coach may want to bring in his OWN QB, making Nassib useless. The QB is going to have to learn the offense, which would take a rookie a few years to get down. Or lets assume it Nassib.... do you think he will have success if his top 3 WRs rarely practice, he is missing 2/5ths of his OLine weekly, and his WRs are among the league leaders in drops? Do you really think we are going to better off?
Nassib may be the better pro quarterback in 2016. We don't know yet. He certainly has a stronger arm and more mobility. He's looked pretty tough in the pocket and had a history at Syracuse of 4th quarter heroics. Can he be another Eli in his prime? That would be asking a lot. Most QBs following legends struggle.
If a new coaching staff comes in, however, and Manning had a bad year at age 35. One could make a strong argument to go with the younger, much cheaper Nassib who has a big upside. But that should be up to the new coaching staff.
What I suggested does not prevent them from picking Eli or Nassib.
Our defense could be that bad to the point where we become one dimensional or to the point where we are out of games by half time. No QB ever is good enough to overcome defenses that give up 30-35 points per game. You are already claiming that Dallas will put 45 on us opening night.
"The expectation is that 2015 will be one of Eli Manning’s very best seasons, that he would once again approach his 2011 level of play. The early returns have been disappointing."
It's the fucking preseason! Who in their right mind would in any way judge Eli Manning's 2015 season (which hasn't begun yet) or his future prospects with this organization based on games that don't count? I expect better from you than that... you seem to have gotten way too emotional over a preseason game.
And like the post I originally quoted stated, Ryan Nassib looked better than Eli Manning LAST preseason. I'd argue the gap between their play was even larger last preseason. I'm glad Ryan Nassib played well, but that should be the end of that discussion. To compare what he did to anything Eli Manning has done or will do is silly. Eli Manning has earned the right to not be judged on ANYTHING he does in the preseason, regardless of how stupid you think one throw in particular was.
another reason to not visit this site anymore. Just utter crap. Nassib better than Eli. Sure. It's like you've never watched football before. Sean Bennett was Jim Brown too.
be old enough to know when to put stock into preseason results and when not to.
Eli never has a good or sharp preseason. If hew were a rookie, I might expect that kind of review, but after seeing him for years and still making those comments.
another reason to not visit this site anymore. Just utter crap. Nassib better than Eli. Sure. It's like you've never watched football before. Sean Bennett was Jim Brown too.
Wow David. Not sure what I've done to you to spark such recent venom. I hope things are going well with you in your personal life.
Eli is the least of our worries. This defense might get abused in Dallas, thank god Demarco is gone. And our offensive line might not give us enough to hang with them in a high scoring game.
On the plus side, and I know every year is different, but here are Eli Mannings stats against Dallas last year:
6 TDs, 1 INT, 576 Yards, 50 completions to 73 attempts (68% completion). Thats pretty damn good folks. Eli's arm was our offense in those games. So it goes back to Defense and Offensive Lines.
I am not sure I am as down on the team as the tone of the article though. Especially since the season has not even started yet.
The way the Giants and the league is now I would be equally unsurprised to see the Giants win or lose week one by multiple scores. In my mind there is almost no way to predict.
Regarding this past game, which again was a practice game, am I the only one who thought the O starters were not that bad? Granted the TD drive was aided by the opposition, but that is a common occurrence in the NFL and to me it had the feel of a regular season pro drive. Take away the overthrow and the absurd pick and it is a fine tune-up for the O. I am also excited for our stable of backs. Different types of runners who bring different things to the table.
To talk about that pick, and it was fucking stupid, that is Eli. One thing about 10 is he will do crazy reckless things. This is a QB who has literally tried left handed shovel passes under pressure, during real games and I think this has happened multiple times. Guy makes crazy decisions from time to time. This is nothing new and the flip side of this is what has allowed for some of the greatest plays in Giants or NFL history. Guy is a gunslinger, that will not be changing and I sometimes wonder, looking back at the past decade plus, if we as Giants fans would want it to change.
I also think about something I have heard Gilbride say in multiple interviews. He said flat out Eli does not care about stats. His example was the if the Giants are down a lot and need desperation low succses throws to get back in it, Eli will sling it without regard for the consequences. He figures we will lose anyway so what is the difference. The way he described it made it seem this was a rare or unheard trait in QB's. To me this was insight into how Eli thinks and I think an element of that was in play with that ridiculous decision and throw. Also, I would say again that pick six did not count for the standings.
The D is going to suck. It has for awhile now. This is the D rebuild and I hope to see improvement ad the year goes o and some evidence that some of these younger guys can play.
It's odd to me that the owner of this site would be so flippant about the best QB in the history of this franchise. Let's look at the other teams in this division over the last 15 years:
Eagles -- haven't contended for a championship since Mcnabb despite all of the Kelly hype.
Skins -- spent 15 picks including 6 first rounders since '00 for a total of 3 playoff appearances.
Cowboys -- 5 playoff appearances since '00 with 2 wins despite having one of the most talented rosters according to media pundits in the early/mid '00's.
Eli has proven that he has the ability to will this team to a championship, unlike any other QB within the division over the last 15 years. Last year, Eli showed statistically that he has the potential to have his best football in front of him in the new system.
Considering Nassib as a replacement and/or not extending Eli stinks of the same situation Simms went through -- and how did that work out? Approximately 10 years of shitty QB play and franchise uncertainty year to year despite talent on the defensive side of the ball.
The fact that the owner of this site, or anyone for that matter, would consider not extending Eli is blasphemous as far as I'm concerned. He may or may not be a top 5 QB in the league in your eyes, but he's definitely a franchise QB -- and those are extremely difficult to come by in the NFL. Ask the countless franchises that have blown multiple drafts to find one.
Barring a playoff season (which I think looks unlikely), I think Coughlin is gone.
The new coaching staff should have the option to determine who they want their QB to be. If Eli plays well in 2015, I'm sure they will want to keep him. If he does not play well in 2015, I am not so sure they will want to commit $100 million to a 35-year QB whose best days may be behind him.
Probably not, but again, it depends on the context. Did he make big plays in big moments? How many interceptions did he throw? Was he truly the victim of a bad running game and defense.
Context is always important. Remember that shitty game Eli had against SF? He was awful. Do you remember that Donnell and Randle both dropped passes in the end zone that would have given them the lead before hsi 5th INT? Amazing how things change when you put context in. How about Cruz's 3 drops agaisnt Arizona in the 4th that lead to their come back. Or his go ahead drive against Dallas that gave them the lead with 3:00 to go only to have the shitty defense give it away. Or his game tying drive against Jax, only for the defense to blow it.
He had some good moments last year that reminded of us of the old Eli, only to be let down by his teammates. It doesnt mean he was perfect. But you said you have to put things in context.....and there are some examples of what people forget when talking about him.
Exactly. The fact that the Giants went 6-10 last season has literally 0% to do with Eli, possibly negative percent. I agree that we shouldn't just blindly give him an extension, but he absolutely deserves it. And there's no way in hell that "early returns" can be based on pre season garbage games where literally nobody tries and play calls are entirely vanilla to the point that it's almost pointless to watch. Yes, the pick 6 was a bad throw, but who the hell cares if the game doesn't count? He might not have thrown it otherwise.
he's in the 3rd year of a 4 year deal. An extension for Eli probably means Nassib is gone after next season which means we are spending a high pick on a qb in the 2017 draft and Nassib was a wasted pick. Not the end of the world but there is more than a monetary cost if you think there might be something there with Nassib.
Barring a playoff season (which I think looks unlikely), I think Coughlin is gone.
The new coaching staff should have the option to determine who they want their QB to be. If Eli plays well in 2015, I'm sure they will want to keep him. If he does not play well in 2015, I am not so sure they will want to commit $100 million to a 35-year QB whose best days may be behind him.
Assuming that plays out, they should have the option to determine the QB of the franchise. But who would that be? Some random top rated QB from the '16 draft, who will most likely bust compared to Eli? Nassib, who hasn't proven anything in a meaningful game? Some castoff from another team?
Another coach will have limited options if he is truly dedicated to winning. This isn't the Colts situation, because there isn't a surefire franchise QB waiting for us in the draft and we aren't coming off an old, injured franchise QB closing in on the end of his career.
IMO, if we tank and ownership goes in another direction, the new staff is going to be reluctant to get rid of Eli Manning. There's too much potential that his replacement will not live up to expectations and Eli goes on to have success with another team. How would you feel about that result? How would ownership feel about that result?
Barring a playoff season (which I think looks unlikely), I think Coughlin is gone.
The new coaching staff should have the option to determine who they want their QB to be. If Eli plays well in 2015, I'm sure they will want to keep him. If he does not play well in 2015, I am not so sure they will want to commit $100 million to a 35-year QB whose best days may be behind him.
This is a fair point, but there is a lot time and variables involved in this. I still believe Eli will perform well as long as the offensive line holds and the running game improves from last year.
Considering Nassib as a replacement and/or not extending Eli stinks of the same situation Simms went through -- and how did that work out? Approximately 10 years of shitty QB play and franchise uncertainty year to year despite talent on the defensive side of the ball.
If you sign Manning to an extension, you are potentially creating the Simms situation. Simms was 38 when he retired and if you recall, we had lost Hostetler to free agency because he wanted to start and didn't want to wait around. We were then forced to draft a qb which we did in the supplemental draft. If we had cut bait with Simms after the 1991 season, Hostetler would have become the undisputed #1 in 1992 and we would have been set at qb for another 5 or 6 years.
It's a hard choice and hardly blasphemous to contemplate.
haha, unlike most posters here, its not getting to me whatsoever. I understand if our team is hurt this bad, and wont return, we are going to be bad.
And when you are missing the majority of your best players, it affects every one else on the team. But if they do come back, I actually think we can surprise too many people.
What I wont do, like many people here, is be influenced by preseason games where people are missing. Oh no Eli threw a pick. Oh no, eli missed a WR. My god, its tiresome and nauseating. I forgot that he is the only QB who makes bad throws a few times again. Every other QB completes 95% of their passes. It's literally like people dont watch other games. Every QB in the league throws bad picks, every QB misses open guys.
Its called football. Most just dont understand it.
2) I think if their holding back Schwartz in preseason pays off and he actually plays, this OL looks a lot better. When he was healthy, last year and this year, the entire OL looked much better.
3) I agree this D has problems and will not be very good. However, I think part of that is Spags' system. He is very reliant on very good DL play. The Giants aren't going to dominate up front, even if they are decent. The rest of the D has to account for that. Right now, I think their biggest problems are a 2nd DE (more in the next point) and no S that is very strong in coverage. If they sign Brown, they have about 5 decent S, but all are best suited for SS at this point.
4) DE - I think Odi should start. He has the most upside and has been the only one to fundamentally set the edge. I honestly don't know who should start opposite him. I was hoping Wynn or Moore would have shown more. But, I do know this experiment with Jenkins at DE should be scrapped. He played decently at DT, but offers nothing at DE.
5) DT - For the umpteenth time, Kuhn should not even be on the roster, so how is he starting?!
6) S - Collins, I think will be a very good S, but is likely to make his share of mistakes. That would be fine if we had a solid FS. Right now, based on a gut instinct really, I think Taylor should start assuming he's healthy. I would also use Merriweather as a 3rd S if they go with that look and he may end up starting at some point, as may Brown. But, none of them are great at protecting the deep part of the field.
7) I also am optimistic that both coordinators are playing very basic looks right now. I expect more from both once the season starts.
8) ST - Can they replace Weatherford adequately at this point? Do they need to? As for the the PR/KR teams, I think this is 100% on Quinn. Every year for the last 5 or 6 years they have had guys come in specifically to return kicks. Almost every one they have put back there has been pedestrian. This is Quinn's coaching, personnel decisions, and schemes. He should have been gone a long time ago. At least, other than the 1 PR for the TD, their punt coverage looked pretty good. They have decent ST players on this roster.
The Giants already made him an extremely rich man with his last contract. He's been paid for past performance.
Since 2011 - clearly his best year - he's had one so-so season, his worst year, and then one of his best.
I'm hoping the needle is pointing up on him, but he's 34 and he's not playing particularly well this preseason. He still could still have a monster season, a so-so season, or a bad year in 2015.
I think this is a moot debate because he will be extended soon regardless.
But some hot coaching prospect might not want to come here if he feels he is "saddled" with Eli in 2016 and beyond. There is a risk here either way.
There are Giants fans out there who think Eli sucks. But there are also fans out there who think he can do no wrong. It's not a black-or-white situation.
if he misses throws in the regular season, throws a shit load of bad picks, and is the reason why we win 5-6 games...... sure you can revisit his contract value and question it. But doing so on preseason is just flat out asinine. The Giants probably didnt even scout what the Jets do, they dont look for their weaknesses. They are running certain plays to see what people can do. I would be shocked if they are running 25% of the offense now. and again if a one leg Randle is your number 2 and Preston parker is your number 3, where the hell are you going anyways?
If the giants suck again, the first thing they need to do is cut ties with JPP, Cruz, Beason, Taylor, Prince and all the other guys who are constantly hurt and injured. The ones who are constantly missing practice, missing games during the year, etc....
Those guys have more of a negative impact than anyone else on the team. You need to field a team thats healthy and has been getting all the practice reps in order to be successful.
:looks at self:
Not upset. Just in awe why people are putting so much stock in his preseason play year after year when its terrible year after year. You would think people would learn this by now. But I guess not.
Let me ask you. What are you more upset about. That I proved that Eli's preseason play does not correlate to his regular season play or that no matter what Eli does, the reality is the Giants will be bad regardless.
Year after year on this site, in preseason game preview after preseason game preview for 20 years, I have minimized the importance of preseason games. It's on record. Everyone who has read my stuff knows I've said it.
So if Eli is 4-of-16 with a bunch of drops and some overthrows, I don't make much of it.
I also don't get terribly bent out of shape over the over-throw to Beckham.
But when a 12 year veteran makes a horrific, rookie mistake like throwing a short pass over the middle with 16 seconds on the clock - and this is a guy who has a history of alternating good seasons with bad seasons with a lot of bonehead mistakes - it raises a level of concern.
His decision to throw that ball was beyond stupid. It was one of the dumbest plays I've ever seen any Giant make.
Year after year on this site, in preseason game preview after preseason game preview for 20 years, I have minimized the importance of preseason games. It's on record. Everyone who has read my stuff knows I've said it.
So if Eli is 4-of-16 with a bunch of drops and some overthrows, I don't make much of it.
I also don't get terribly bent out of shape over the over-throw to Beckham.
But when a 12 year veteran makes a horrific, rookie mistake like throwing a short pass over the middle with 16 seconds on the clock - and this is a guy who has a history of alternating good seasons with bad seasons with a lot of bonehead mistakes - it raises a level of concern.
His decision to throw that ball was beyond stupid. It was one of the dumbest plays I've ever seen any Giant make.
and what my knee jerk reaction? That if we are as injured during the regular season as we are now, its not worth getting all worked up about because we are going to stink anwyays. And that judging Eli on preseason games is meaningless because history has shown he doesnt play well in the preseason?
Where is the reaction? You made a comment that he has to earn his contract. And are skeptical he wont because of a preseason game. You are the one over reacting and not putting things into perspective.
How about Eli gets his OLine and his WRs healthy before we judge him. Like I said, he could easily throw for 4,500 yards this year and another 30 TDs, and we can still go 5-11. Is that reason to get rid of him?
There will be close to 20 QBs in the NFl next year that are making over 16 million. Its the price you pay for them. And cap space means a shit of beans if you overpay people who arent as good as their contract appears.
Here's the bigger issue. Lets say Cruz misses a handful of games (a possibility now), Prince misses games again for being hurt. Beatty doesnt recover. Beason misses games. schwartz misses games, JPP doesnt come back...
Wouldnt it be smarter to get rid of those players first because you know..... they are ALWAYS hurt? What good is your team if you rely more on guys who are always hurt than guys who play every game at a pretty high level?
$100 million QBs are paid to carry their team. Eli hasn't carried this team since 2011. That year, he had no defense and no running game. He had Victor and Hakeem and Jake.
You and I disagree on this. You always think it is the fault of the surrounding talent. I think the surrounding talent has had a big role in this, but so has Eli.
I don't think it is that controversial to make an athlete earn his next contract.
Like I said, it's a moot discussion. I hope it doesn't come back to bite the Giants in the ass. I'm rooting for Eli just as much as anyone.
Exactly. The part about Manning/Nassib is the most moronic thing I've ever read from Eric.
$100 million QBs are paid to carry their team. Eli hasn't carried this team since 2011. That year, he had no defense and no running game. He had Victor and Hakeem and Jake.
You and I disagree on this. You always think it is the fault of the surrounding talent. I think the surrounding talent has had a big role in this, but so has Eli.
I don't think it is that controversial to make an athlete earn his next contract.
Like I said, it's a moot discussion. I hope it doesn't come back to bite the Giants in the ass. I'm rooting for Eli just as much as anyone.
Ive said this before and Ill ask this again. Which QBs in the league carry their teams to the playoffs without getting significant help from their teammates.
I would put Luck up there, and maybe Brady (even though he plays for the greatest coach probably in NFL history). Either way, Eli is not as good as those two players.
Guys like Rodgers, Peyton, Ben, Romo have immense talent surrounding them. Eli has 1. If you expect Eli and OBJ to carry you into the playoffs, then you have higher hopes than I do. Ruben Randle wouldnt have been a top 4 WR on teams like Packers and Broncos last year. Preston Parker doesnt even make their team. We know the OLine is dreadful.
I dont care if he makes 5 dollars or 100 million dollars, you cant expect a player or 2 to carry a team. And if you dont think he deserves to get paid next year, thats your opinion. But when guys like cutler, griffin, Kap, and other shitty QBs are making 17-18 million a year, he has every right to ask for more. You know why?
Because he is better than them.
$100 million QBs are paid to carry their team. Eli hasn't carried this team since 2011. That year, he had no defense and no running game. He had Victor and Hakeem and Jake.
You and I disagree on this. You always think it is the fault of the surrounding talent. I think the surrounding talent has had a big role in this, but so has Eli.
I don't think it is that controversial to make an athlete earn his next contract.
Like I said, it's a moot discussion. I hope it doesn't come back to bite the Giants in the ass. I'm rooting for Eli just as much as anyone.
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All Eric is saying is that if we have another 6-10 season and we have to blow up the team, a team with not much depth, it may not be wise to spend $20 million dollars of your salary cap on an aging QB. I love Eli, but I have to be a Giants fan first. This team as currently constructed is not a playoff team. We have to give our self options just in case Mara blows the whole thing up, which is very good possibility if we miss the playoffs.
There will be close to 20 QBs in the NFl next year that are making over 16 million. Its the price you pay for them. And cap space means a shit of beans if you overpay people who arent as good as their contract appears.
Here's the bigger issue. Lets say Cruz misses a handful of games (a possibility now), Prince misses games again for being hurt. Beatty doesnt recover. Beason misses games. schwartz misses games, JPP doesnt come back...
Wouldnt it be smarter to get rid of those players first because you know..... they are ALWAYS hurt? What good is your team if you rely more on guys who are always hurt than guys who play every game at a pretty high level?
Prince and JPP don't have a contract pass this season. Beatty, Beason, and Schwartz can all be cut on their current deals. If you resign Eli now and give him 21 mil year, that's 21 mil you are stuck with for the foreseeable future. If you let the season play out and Eli sucks or the Giants completely suck, it gives you the flexibility if you decide to rebuild and go with a younger QB. I love Eli and want to see him finish his career here but I can't take another 6-10 season. Yes the defense is God awful, but a true franchise QB doesn't have 3 losing seasons in a row. He finds ways to win.
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But when a 12 year veteran makes a horrific, rookie mistake like throwing a short pass over the middle with 16 seconds on the clock - and this is a guy who has a history of alternating good seasons with bad seasons with a lot of bonehead mistakes - it raises a level of concern.
And heres my point. Every Qb makes these mistakes a few times a year. People just dont realize it. I saw Peyton have the time run out on him when he threw in the middle of the field last year with no timeout. They are mistakes. EVERY QB makes them. Now if he does it every game, sure you can raise a point. But people act like Eli is the only one who makes shitty passes and decisions in the NFL. EVERY QB does.
I said Nassib was out-playing Eli this preseason (he is).
I said the new coaching staff may not want the then 35-year old Manning depending on how he plays in 2015 (not an unreasonable assessment).
It's implied that I think Nassib may be a good future starter in this league (I do).
But I never said bench Manning for Nassib.
Prince and JPP don't have a contract pass this season. Beatty, Beason, and Schwartz can all be cut on their current deals. If you resign Eli now and give him 21 mil year, that's 21 mil you are stuck with for the foreseeable future. If you let the season play out and Eli sucks or the Giants completely suck, it gives you the flexibility if you decide to rebuild and go with a younger QB. I love Eli and want to see him finish his career here but I can't take another 6-10 season. Yes the defense is God awful, but a true franchise QB doesn't have 3 losing seasons in a row. He finds ways to win.
And if you let all those players go and fill them with guys who actualyl play and practice every week..... maybe, jsut maybe the team plays better.
And again, your guys expectation of QB play is the most unrealistic I have ever seen. Last year was probably Eli's best season ever, and we went 6-10.
So again, I ask thsi question. If he throws for 4,500 yards and 30 plus TDs and we go 5-11.... are you going to get rid of him because the rest of team sucks? Its just asinine to me.
I think he was the best QB in the playoffs in 2007. I think he was arguably the NFL MVP in 2011.
I think he had a bit of a renaissance in 2014 after a horrible season where HE played awful. You still won't admit to that.
I expect a $100 million quarterback to lift his entire team, especially if he has Odell Beckham.
I'm still optimistic about Eli this year because he has Odell and hopefully Victor Cruz and a QB-friendly system. But if he has another so-so year or worse and he still wants to take up 15 percent of the team's cap, it's probably time to move on.
I said Nassib was out-playing Eli this preseason (he is).
I said the new coaching staff may not want the then 35-year old Manning depending on how he plays in 2015 (not an unreasonable assessment).
It's implied that I think Nassib may be a good future starter in this league (I do).
But I never said bench Manning for Nassib.
Ok Eric, here's a hypothetical question. Eli tanks thsi year, we get rid of TC, and they decide not to resign Eli.
First off, the new coach may want to bring in his OWN QB, making Nassib useless. The QB is going to have to learn the offense, which would take a rookie a few years to get down. Or lets assume it Nassib.... do you think he will have success if his top 3 WRs rarely practice, he is missing 2/5ths of his OLine weekly, and his WRs are among the league leaders in drops? Do you really think we are going to better off?
Ok Ill bite. Based off last year, what QBs do you think are better than Eli.
I got Brady, Rodgers, Luck, Peyton (only if he is healthy), and Ben.
After that, I wouldnt take a single QB over him, and that makes him one of the best in the league.
Probably not, but again, it depends on the context. Did he make big plays in big moments? How many interceptions did he throw? Was he truly the victim of a bad running game and defense.
The stats don't mean much without context.
And this is not about "me" getting rid of him, but the next coaching staff have the flexibility to make their own decision rather than it being imposed on them by a GM who hasn't done a good job in recent years.
I got Brady, Rodgers, Luck, Peyton (only if he is healthy), and Ben.
After that, I wouldnt take a single QB over him, and that makes him one of the best in the league.
You're digressing from my main point. Again, my argument is to wait and see how Eli plays in 2015, not to rank QB performances in 2014.
Eli has already been paid handsomely for his performance in 2014.
Probably not, but again, it depends on the context. Did he make big plays in big moments? How many interceptions did he throw? Was he truly the victim of a bad running game and defense.
Context is always important. Remember that shitty game Eli had against SF? He was awful. Do you remember that Donnell and Randle both dropped passes in the end zone that would have given them the lead before hsi 5th INT? Amazing how things change when you put context in. How about Cruz's 3 drops agaisnt Arizona in the 4th that lead to their come back. Or his go ahead drive against Dallas that gave them the lead with 3:00 to go only to have the shitty defense give it away. Or his game tying drive against Jax, only for the defense to blow it.
He had some good moments last year that reminded of us of the old Eli, only to be let down by his teammates. It doesnt mean he was perfect. But you said you have to put things in context.....and there are some examples of what people forget when talking about him.
Nassib may be the better pro quarterback in 2016. We don't know yet. He certainly has a stronger arm and more mobility. He's looked pretty tough in the pocket and had a history at Syracuse of 4th quarter heroics. Can he be another Eli in his prime? That would be asking a lot. Most QBs following legends struggle.
If a new coaching staff comes in, however, and Manning had a bad year at age 35. One could make a strong argument to go with the younger, much cheaper Nassib who has a big upside. But that should be up to the new coaching staff.
What I suggested does not prevent them from picking Eli or Nassib.
Our defense could be that bad to the point where we become one dimensional or to the point where we are out of games by half time. No QB ever is good enough to overcome defenses that give up 30-35 points per game. You are already claiming that Dallas will put 45 on us opening night.
It's the fucking preseason! Who in their right mind would in any way judge Eli Manning's 2015 season (which hasn't begun yet) or his future prospects with this organization based on games that don't count? I expect better from you than that... you seem to have gotten way too emotional over a preseason game.
And like the post I originally quoted stated, Ryan Nassib looked better than Eli Manning LAST preseason. I'd argue the gap between their play was even larger last preseason. I'm glad Ryan Nassib played well, but that should be the end of that discussion. To compare what he did to anything Eli Manning has done or will do is silly. Eli Manning has earned the right to not be judged on ANYTHING he does in the preseason, regardless of how stupid you think one throw in particular was.
Eric,
Even with a complete OL last year, Eli put up great numbers. Imagine if the OL had been semi serviceable.
Eli never has a good or sharp preseason. If hew were a rookie, I might expect that kind of review, but after seeing him for years and still making those comments.
As a former poster used to say. Wow. Just Wow.
Which poster was that?
Wow David. Not sure what I've done to you to spark such recent venom. I hope things are going well with you in your personal life.
On the plus side, and I know every year is different, but here are Eli Mannings stats against Dallas last year:
6 TDs, 1 INT, 576 Yards, 50 completions to 73 attempts (68% completion). Thats pretty damn good folks. Eli's arm was our offense in those games. So it goes back to Defense and Offensive Lines.
If that is the case, why does Reese get a pass?
Since Reese took the reins, the talent on the team has gone down, not up. I think Reese should get just as much of the blame as the coaching staff.
Ask Mr. Mara and Mr. Tisch.
You of all people should know that it is impossible to have a rational discussion concerning certain players.
I am not sure I am as down on the team as the tone of the article though. Especially since the season has not even started yet.
The way the Giants and the league is now I would be equally unsurprised to see the Giants win or lose week one by multiple scores. In my mind there is almost no way to predict.
Regarding this past game, which again was a practice game, am I the only one who thought the O starters were not that bad? Granted the TD drive was aided by the opposition, but that is a common occurrence in the NFL and to me it had the feel of a regular season pro drive. Take away the overthrow and the absurd pick and it is a fine tune-up for the O. I am also excited for our stable of backs. Different types of runners who bring different things to the table.
To talk about that pick, and it was fucking stupid, that is Eli. One thing about 10 is he will do crazy reckless things. This is a QB who has literally tried left handed shovel passes under pressure, during real games and I think this has happened multiple times. Guy makes crazy decisions from time to time. This is nothing new and the flip side of this is what has allowed for some of the greatest plays in Giants or NFL history. Guy is a gunslinger, that will not be changing and I sometimes wonder, looking back at the past decade plus, if we as Giants fans would want it to change.
I also think about something I have heard Gilbride say in multiple interviews. He said flat out Eli does not care about stats. His example was the if the Giants are down a lot and need desperation low succses throws to get back in it, Eli will sling it without regard for the consequences. He figures we will lose anyway so what is the difference. The way he described it made it seem this was a rare or unheard trait in QB's. To me this was insight into how Eli thinks and I think an element of that was in play with that ridiculous decision and throw. Also, I would say again that pick six did not count for the standings.
The D is going to suck. It has for awhile now. This is the D rebuild and I hope to see improvement ad the year goes o and some evidence that some of these younger guys can play.
Eagles -- haven't contended for a championship since Mcnabb despite all of the Kelly hype.
Skins -- spent 15 picks including 6 first rounders since '00 for a total of 3 playoff appearances.
Cowboys -- 5 playoff appearances since '00 with 2 wins despite having one of the most talented rosters according to media pundits in the early/mid '00's.
Eli has proven that he has the ability to will this team to a championship, unlike any other QB within the division over the last 15 years. Last year, Eli showed statistically that he has the potential to have his best football in front of him in the new system.
Considering Nassib as a replacement and/or not extending Eli stinks of the same situation Simms went through -- and how did that work out? Approximately 10 years of shitty QB play and franchise uncertainty year to year despite talent on the defensive side of the ball.
The fact that the owner of this site, or anyone for that matter, would consider not extending Eli is blasphemous as far as I'm concerned. He may or may not be a top 5 QB in the league in your eyes, but he's definitely a franchise QB -- and those are extremely difficult to come by in the NFL. Ask the countless franchises that have blown multiple drafts to find one.
Barring a playoff season (which I think looks unlikely), I think Coughlin is gone.
The new coaching staff should have the option to determine who they want their QB to be. If Eli plays well in 2015, I'm sure they will want to keep him. If he does not play well in 2015, I am not so sure they will want to commit $100 million to a 35-year QB whose best days may be behind him.
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Probably not, but again, it depends on the context. Did he make big plays in big moments? How many interceptions did he throw? Was he truly the victim of a bad running game and defense.
Context is always important. Remember that shitty game Eli had against SF? He was awful. Do you remember that Donnell and Randle both dropped passes in the end zone that would have given them the lead before hsi 5th INT? Amazing how things change when you put context in. How about Cruz's 3 drops agaisnt Arizona in the 4th that lead to their come back. Or his go ahead drive against Dallas that gave them the lead with 3:00 to go only to have the shitty defense give it away. Or his game tying drive against Jax, only for the defense to blow it.
He had some good moments last year that reminded of us of the old Eli, only to be let down by his teammates. It doesnt mean he was perfect. But you said you have to put things in context.....and there are some examples of what people forget when talking about him.
Exactly. The fact that the Giants went 6-10 last season has literally 0% to do with Eli, possibly negative percent. I agree that we shouldn't just blindly give him an extension, but he absolutely deserves it. And there's no way in hell that "early returns" can be based on pre season garbage games where literally nobody tries and play calls are entirely vanilla to the point that it's almost pointless to watch. Yes, the pick 6 was a bad throw, but who the hell cares if the game doesn't count? He might not have thrown it otherwise.
There should be quite a market for him.
Barring a playoff season (which I think looks unlikely), I think Coughlin is gone.
The new coaching staff should have the option to determine who they want their QB to be. If Eli plays well in 2015, I'm sure they will want to keep him. If he does not play well in 2015, I am not so sure they will want to commit $100 million to a 35-year QB whose best days may be behind him.
Assuming that plays out, they should have the option to determine the QB of the franchise. But who would that be? Some random top rated QB from the '16 draft, who will most likely bust compared to Eli? Nassib, who hasn't proven anything in a meaningful game? Some castoff from another team?
Another coach will have limited options if he is truly dedicated to winning. This isn't the Colts situation, because there isn't a surefire franchise QB waiting for us in the draft and we aren't coming off an old, injured franchise QB closing in on the end of his career.
IMO, if we tank and ownership goes in another direction, the new staff is going to be reluctant to get rid of Eli Manning. There's too much potential that his replacement will not live up to expectations and Eli goes on to have success with another team. How would you feel about that result? How would ownership feel about that result?
Barring a playoff season (which I think looks unlikely), I think Coughlin is gone.
The new coaching staff should have the option to determine who they want their QB to be. If Eli plays well in 2015, I'm sure they will want to keep him. If he does not play well in 2015, I am not so sure they will want to commit $100 million to a 35-year QB whose best days may be behind him.
This is a fair point, but there is a lot time and variables involved in this. I still believe Eli will perform well as long as the offensive line holds and the running game improves from last year.
It's a hard choice and hardly blasphemous to contemplate.