for display only
Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Remember Spag's First Year?

Biteymax22 : 9/1/2015 8:59 am
Let's face it, the Giants haven't looked good on either side of the ball this preseason, but there is hope on each side.

On offense we still have a Superbowl MVP QB and one of the best receiving cores (if healthy) in football, so I am not going to elaborate any further.

The defense is what is really interesting to me and the reason is because of what Spag's first year as DC looked like. I am sure many of you remember that the first few games were scary as players learned his scheme and he learned his players. It wasn't until the Giants made the big goal line stop against the Redskins that the team started to come together.

I know that team had a lot of talent, but this one does on defense too. Pierre-Paul will be back at some point, Kennard and Hankins are future stars and our starting CBs are very strong in Prince and DRC. On top of that, with all of the concern about safety our final four on the roster; Meriwether, Collins, Brown and Taylor aren't exactly a weak group (though not strong).

With all that being said it typically takes time for a unit to adjust to a new coordinator (Spag's is new to all of the players on defense)just like it did in 2007. I remember our offense getting better as the season went on last year and I expect the same for our defense. Does this mean we'll win the Superbowl? No. But I do think it means we will compete.
Less talent  
jeff57 : 9/1/2015 9:01 am : link
Other than the corners, this defense is short on talent.
Unless you're an older poster with a new handle,  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2015 9:06 am : link
welcome to the board..

Here's what you'll read here:

"remember, Spags started 0-2 in '07..Whether his talent base was better is moot, it takes time to assimilate things."

"Oh, we know that, it's gonna take time to acclimate to the mew DC and his principles."

Same people after possible beating at the expense of Romo and co.: "Fuck Spags! We need to clean house!"

Again, welcome to BBI..:)
this group  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 9:14 am : link
is far less talented and less wanting to compete than any recent group of defenders I've seen in some time ... JPP will not be back in a Giant uniform, and regardless not 1 player can be savior ...

they are also missing motivating voices and strong leadership personalities that run the inmates from the inside (strahan, pierce,rolle,etc.)

basically from what I have witnessed you have a group of pay-check getters and nothing more ...

we do have hope that we have Spags running the scheme, but he is no miracle worker like he has said, I think he realizes what he has to work with here ... its unfortunate



Spags had Strahan  
Ben in Tampa : 9/1/2015 9:15 am : link
The best DE of his generation and young superstars all over the defensive line. The thinking is that it took two games in 07 for the players to figure out the defense, but I have often contended the turnaround coincides with Strahan rounding into game shape.

Won't be that simple this time around.
I remember it well. They had Strahan, Tuck, Osi, Kiwi  
Victor in CT : 9/1/2015 9:17 am : link
Cofield, Robbins, Alford up front. They don't have that now. You are comparing apples to rotten bananas with very few exceptions like Hankins and hopefully Odi.
Sink or swim  
Giants2012 : 9/1/2015 9:18 am : link
I trust Spags more than Fewell.
i had read an article ...  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 9:19 am : link
to dating back to the 2007 playoff run/post season, it was basically Osi/Strahan dictating to Spags as what they should be doing, and Spags let it go, we all know how relentless that front was ...
The Giants lost to the Cowboys 45-35.  
Curtis in VA : 9/1/2015 9:20 am : link
The Cowboys ran for 142 yards and passed for 336 yards.

They beat the Giants defense with big plays.

18 yard TD run by Marion Barber.

22 yard TD pass to Terrell Owens.

47 yard TD pass to Terrell Owens.

51 yard TD pass to Sam Hurd.

I would expect much of the same against the Cowboys this time around. Its gonna be ugly. And we don't even have one dynamic pass rusher, let alone three.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/1/2015 9:20 am : link
I've said it once, I'll say it again.. people expecting a 2007 redux for this defense are going to be quite disappointed. The talent simply is not there.
ill give Spags  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 9:24 am : link
a pass this season, maybe even 1-2 more, he simply has nothing to work with ... until we get influx of real athletes and guys who are willing to leave it on the field every down I am not expected anything good ...
No talent..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2015 9:24 am : link
just a bunch of paycheck cashers.

While I agree the talent is far less than 2007, especially on the DL, anyone saying a bunch of professional athletes are just cashing checks is pretty much ignorant.
And of we actually manage to beat the 'Boys in the opener  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2015 9:28 am : link
and our D holds them reasonable in check, you'll read:

"Wow, did I underestimate this D..It's a long season, but I'm liking it..I'll gladly eat crow if this continues."
RE: No talent..  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 9:29 am : link
In comment 12446239 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
just a bunch of paycheck cashers.

While I agree the talent is far less than 2007, especially on the DL, anyone saying a bunch of professional athletes are just cashing checks is pretty much ignorant.


there were far too many plays from last year to even count of guys just giving up, that's the definition of a pay check casher ...
I was listening to the Sports Junkies on 106.7  
Someguy1978 : 9/1/2015 9:35 am : link
in DC about a half hour ago. They had Shaun O'Hara on talking briefly about the Giants. Thinks the Giants offense could put up a ton of points this year. However, he said there is nobody on the Giants defense this year that scares anyone.
Sure..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2015 9:37 am : link
there were.

Says a person watching from his home.

Thomas/area junc once called Carlos Eammons a pussy for not making a tackle in a game - and it turned out he was playing with a separated shoulder.

This is just like idiots calling players "china doll" or other derogatory terms for being injured. Because of their own fan disappointment, people question the toughness and character of players.

really just inexcuseable, but I'm sure some will say, "Hey I'm a fan - I can say what I want".

Yes you can - and you'll look like a fucking moron for doing so.
RE: I was listening to the Sports Junkies on 106.7  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 9:38 am : link
In comment 12446262 Someguy1978 said:
Quote:
in DC about a half hour ago. They had Shaun O'Hara on talking briefly about the Giants. Thinks the Giants offense could put up a ton of points this year. However, he said there is nobody on the Giants defense this year that scares anyone.


everyone is counting on 2 key guys that have injury issues, Cruz and RR ... 2 big components to the offense ... neither have had many reps this preseason, both practice and games, to assume week 1 they step on the field and all things go right is crazy ... no continuity has been established, timing, tendencies ...
desire and willing to play  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 9:41 am : link
is displayed on every down, you cant hide of a football field ... saw too many guys sell out last year, and not in a good way ... nobody is be-littling a player, its just that we have a bad mixture, patches, guys here earning paychecks for the year and then see you next ...

gaping hole in the middle of the defense for years now, depending on a player who can not remain healthy, its mind boggling from a business standpoint ...
Of course you are belittling a player..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2015 9:51 am : link
calling a professional athlete a check casher is doing exactly that.
it is what it is  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 9:56 am : link
...
RE: And of we actually manage to beat the 'Boys in the opener  
micky : 9/1/2015 10:00 am : link
In comment 12446248 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
and our D holds them reasonable in check, you'll read:

"Wow, did I underestimate this D..It's a long season, but I'm liking it..I'll gladly eat crow if this continues."


sort of goes both ways lol. Bipolar on both sides of fence. It's what fans do
RE: RE: And of we actually manage to beat the 'Boys in the opener  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2015 10:01 am : link
In comment 12446337 micky said:
Quote:
In comment 12446248 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


and our D holds them reasonable in check, you'll read:

"Wow, did I underestimate this D..It's a long season, but I'm liking it..I'll gladly eat crow if this continues."



sort of goes both ways lol. Bipolar on both sides of fence. It's what fans do


:)
i like the coaches on this team  
GiantsFan84 : 9/1/2015 10:08 am : link
they will not lose this year because of scheme or being significantly outcoached. the coaches are not the problem.
Spag's  
grizz299 : 9/1/2015 10:09 am : link
is more experienced. And he had to sell that group of veterans on his own capability. Now he comes back to accolades from no less than Banks and a host of worthies.

So he comes in "credentialed" and I think this group accepts him and his ideas quickly and without reservation.

It's funny how the same posters who screamed that we had no linebackers are still screaming....Point it this team is not that much weaker than the sb team. If you want to say the front four is not as good these linebackers are significantly better and I think the back four is much stronger too....Ross, Webster against Prince and cromartie and Wilson / Madison likely going up against Collins..Cooper
So on two of the three units I have a large edge for this crew.

I think that Hankins, Kennard, Cromartie, Prince, Collins are just about pro bowl types. I think you can usually fashion a good defense with a core of four players that are that good.

I think Beason, Ellis, Thomas, the tackle from Syracuse and Odi are very good players.

I think Avery , Selvy, Wynn, and Moore are useful.

Breaking it down that way I show 5 pro bowl type, 5 very good players...damn that should be enough.

Then put in better special teams play that Harris alone should provide and a very good offense that should be in a class with that superbowl team...

Collins/Cooper  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 10:15 am : link
has either played an NFL down ? what are either of these players capabilities at this point ?
2008  
Toth029 : 9/1/2015 10:20 am : link
Defense was better. Less talent all around.

Problem from 2008 defense to 2015 is, again, talent. While there wasn't a significant abundance of talent in 2008's defense, they still had quality and veterans. Mainly on the DL - Robbins, Cofield, Kiwanuka, and Tuck were great, although they had no depth. Right now, I'd be much more comfortable if they had JPP or weren't relying on f'n guys like Kuhn.
Remember Spags' most recent stint as a DC  
chris r : 9/1/2015 10:20 am : link
?
Our secondary is much better than in 2007, BUT  
CT Charlie : 9/1/2015 10:25 am : link
if our lack of a pass rush gives the QB an extra 2-3 seconds, even Spiderman can't cover a decent NFL receiver.
Spags turned the defense around,  
Doomster : 9/1/2015 10:27 am : link
after only 2 games in 2007, and will do it again....

Coughlin wins SB's every four years....

For some on BBI, those are written in stone.....

FACT IS, TC WILL NOT WIN A SB THIS YEAR, AND SPAGS WILL NOT TURN THIS DEFENSE AROUND AFTER TWO GAMES....because all the planets are not aligned, and because I lost my lucky rabbit's foot.....not to mention, my Giant "throw", which has been on the bed for 9 years, has developed a hole in it...
RE: ill give Spags  
Bleedin Blue : 9/1/2015 10:27 am : link
In comment 12446238 Hem Roid said:
Quote:
a pass this season, maybe even 1-2 more, he simply has nothing to work with ... until we get influx of real athletes and guys who are willing to leave it on the field every down I am not expected anything good ...


There won't be a next year for this staff IF this season turns to shit!
RE: Less talent  
Mike in Long Beach : 9/1/2015 10:28 am : link
In comment 12446200 jeff57 said:
Quote:
Other than the corners, this defense is short on talent.


I'd actually argue the linebackers are comparable to that team if Beason could somehow stay healthy.
Mike,  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2015 10:29 am : link
I'm with you on that
RE: Our secondary is much better than in 2007, BUT  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 10:36 am : link
In comment 12446399 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
if our lack of a pass rush gives the QB an extra 2-3 seconds, even Spiderman can't cover a decent NFL receiver.


the secondary is decimated by injury, how can you say its better ?
The secondary depth..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2015 10:39 am : link
is injured. The starters are decently intact.

Now if the starters go down - it will be a trainwreck.
Weird Qyestion  
ThatLimerickGuy : 9/1/2015 10:39 am : link
When talking about a group of specific position players do you refer to them as core or corps? I always thought the latter- like Marine Corps.

Not a big deal I've seen it both ways just wondering
RE: RE: Less talent  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 10:40 am : link
In comment 12446407 Mike in Long Beach said:
Quote:
In comment 12446200 jeff57 said:


Quote:


Other than the corners, this defense is short on talent.



I'd actually argue the linebackers are comparable to that team if Beason could somehow stay healthy.


he wont, whenever he returns, he will wind up sidelined again with a different ailment ... anyone who would take Beason over Pierce is enamored over a guy that looks cool over a guy who had limited physical tools but showed up every game and was the epitome of the extended arm of the coach ...

we would be lucky to have a Peirce on this team ...
I don't get it  
Go Terps : 9/1/2015 10:43 am : link
The defense sucks for years, so the defensive coordinator and many defensive players are changed... And now people bitch about the talent level on defense? How could they even know?

I'm excited about the defense. I'm excited about having a different coordinator, and I'm excited about having different players in many spots.
You really..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2015 10:43 am : link
don't know much about players do you?

Jon Beason was considered the heart and soul of the defense in Carolina.

You think he wants to "look cool". This is exactly the problem with supposed fans. They pretty much know jackshit about guys, see someone injured and make pithy comments about them and have little regard for their reputation.

For years, Beason was known as a beast. For years, Pierce was too.

When healthy, Beason is very good. We can argue about how healthy he will be, but your continued bashing of him shows just how little you know about the game and what a jackass you are.
Our 2008 defense was good without Osi and Strahan  
Stupendamatic : 9/1/2015 10:45 am : link
Talent we have. They may not be the most gifted, but collectively we have a good unit with a lot of potential.

We know about Hankins, Prince, DRC, Beason, Kennard. Five players who I believe when on the field are impact players.

Jay Bromley is a guy I'm excited about. It's been a common theme for our 2nd year defensive tackles to play a larger role and generally it's with success.

Damontre Moore is the one player I feel is going to benefit most from the scheme, and hands on coaching style Spags brings. Without looking it up, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Moore had the highest percentage generating pressure per snap on the QB last season. He has all the tools to be a double digit sack guy.

Devon Kennard almost in the way Moore will benefit from the scheme. Jon Beason on Kennard ""He played most of his life on the line, he's really a pass rusher.", he's going to get even more chances this season.

These are three players I feel will step up and become impact players for us. This is not even to mention the anticipated impact Owa Odighizuwa and Landon Collins will have on our run D.

I would like to know are our young guys putting in the extra time, seeing an opportunity, a defense without a true leader. Do they want it enough is the question.

I look at Spags and I see a man that loves and is genuinely passionate about what he does. I feel that is going to rub off on the players and bring out the best in them.

We know we have a coordinator who undoubtedly cares about this team and it's success. I'm not as worried as some, even under the assumption that JPP doesn't play a snap.
who cares what he  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 10:46 am : link
did in Carolina ... what has he done as a Giant ? he can not be relied upon to anchor the middle of the defense ... pretty cut and dry ...

I think this guy Unga should be given every chance to run with the 1's and see what he has ...
RE: Our 2008 defense was good without Osi and Strahan  
Stupendamatic : 9/1/2015 10:46 am : link
In comment 12446454 Stupendamatic said:
Quote:
Talent we have. They may not be the most gifted, but collectively we have a good unit with a lot of potential.

We know about Hankins, Prince, DRC, Beason, Kennard. Five players who I believe when on the field are impact players.

Jay Bromley is a guy I'm excited about. It's been a common theme for our 2nd year defensive tackles to play a larger role and generally it's with success.

Damontre Moore is the one player I feel is going to benefit most from the scheme, and hands on coaching style Spags brings. Without looking it up, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Moore had the highest percentage generating pressure per snap on the QB last season. He has all the tools to be a double digit sack guy.

Devon Kennard almost in the way Moore will benefit from the scheme. Jon Beason on Kennard ""He played most of his life on the line, he's really a pass rusher.", he's going to get even more chances this season.

These are three players I feel will step up and become impact players for us. This is not even to mention the anticipated impact Owa Odighizuwa and Landon Collins will have on our run D.

I would like to know are our young guys putting in the extra time, seeing an opportunity, a defense without a true leader. Do they want it enough is the question.

I look at Spags and I see a man that loves and is genuinely passionate about what he does. I feel that is going to rub off on the players and bring out the best in them.

We know we have a coordinator who undoubtedly cares about this team and it's success. I'm not as worried as some, even under the assumption that JPP doesn't play a snap.


Whoops. Looks like I couldn't resist talking more about Kennard. That's what happens when write out posts in sections and multiple sittings (puppy had to go).
My point was..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2015 10:50 am : link
Quote:
anyone who would take Beason over Pierce is enamored over a guy that looks cool over a guy who had limited physical tools but showed up every game and was the epitome of the extended arm of the coach ...


In Carolina, Beason WAS Pierce. He was the heart and soul and considered the defensive leader.

Of course, you fit in well with many on BBI. When Pierce started to decline, several posters were happy to see him go, too. Even a warrior like Pierce ended up having some infer he was a "check casher".

That's the paradox of making idiotic statements about the guys who put their bodies on the line. Eventually you look like an idiot. In your case, it didn't take long and it is quite frequent.
again, let me repeat for you ...  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 10:56 am : link
I don't care what Beason did in Carolina ... what does that have to do with what he has done so far as a Giant ?

Pierce is the epitome of what this team needs, been a revolving door at his spot since he left ...
the question is how talented are the young players?  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 9/1/2015 11:02 am : link
Some portion of these guys need to produce:

Moore, Damontre,
Odighizuwa, Owa,
Wynn, Kerry,
Bromley, Jay,
Ellis, Kenrick,
Kennard, Devon,
Collins, Landon

That's true of most teams. If they are for real, the defense can be good. If they are mediocre, then it is unlikely that the defense can be anything other than pedestrian.
And yet..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/1/2015 11:03 am : link
let me repeat too - jackasses like you took a "what have you done lately" stance with Pierce as well and were happy to bash him and run him out of town.

Being the epitome of what we need sure wasn't preferred his last year here when people bitched about his cover and tackling skills.
i wasnt  
Hem Roid : 9/1/2015 11:07 am : link
part of that crowd, bc I knew well there wasn't a fall back option at the time, or anything better than Pierce that was ready to step in and play ...

I think we have something special in Unga, and the very least he is not Beason as far as an injury waiting to happen ...
RE: Our 2008 defense was good without Osi and Strahan  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2015 11:10 am : link
In comment 12446454 Stupendamatic said:
Quote:
Talent we have. They may not be the most gifted, but collectively we have a good unit with a lot of potential.

We know about Hankins, Prince, DRC, Beason, Kennard. Five players who I believe when on the field are impact players.

Jay Bromley is a guy I'm excited about. It's been a common theme for our 2nd year defensive tackles to play a larger role and generally it's with success.

Damontre Moore is the one player I feel is going to benefit most from the scheme, and hands on coaching style Spags brings. Without looking it up, so please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Moore had the highest percentage generating pressure per snap on the QB last season. He has all the tools to be a double digit sack guy.

Devon Kennard almost in the way Moore will benefit from the scheme. Jon Beason on Kennard ""He played most of his life on the line, he's really a pass rusher.", he's going to get even more chances this season.

These are three players I feel will step up and become impact players for us. This is not even to mention the anticipated impact Owa Odighizuwa and Landon Collins will have on our run D.

I would like to know are our young guys putting in the extra time, seeing an opportunity, a defense without a true leader. Do they want it enough is the question.

I look at Spags and I see a man that loves and is genuinely passionate about what he does. I feel that is going to rub off on the players and bring out the best in them.

We know we have a coordinator who undoubtedly cares about this team and it's success. I'm not as worried as some, even under the assumption that JPP doesn't play a snap.


A very reasoned(and rare) post..Thank you
RE: I don't get it  
BrettNYG10 : 9/1/2015 11:11 am : link
In comment 12446446 Go Terps said:
Quote:
The defense sucks for years, so the defensive coordinator and many defensive players are changed... And now people bitch about the talent level on defense? How could they even know?

I'm excited about the defense. I'm excited about having a different coordinator, and I'm excited about having different players in many spots.


The team lacks 'shiny' at this stage. I think many of us anticipate growing pains with exciting young pieces like Collins and Odighizuwa. Outside of Hankins, the CB's, and maybe Beason/Kennard it's hard to find obvious plus players - and certainly no obvious elite talent.
RE: Our secondary is much better than in 2007, BUT  
BigBlueinChicago : 9/1/2015 11:21 am : link
In comment 12446399 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
if our lack of a pass rush gives the QB an extra 2-3 seconds, even Spiderman can't cover a decent NFL receiver.


This is an interesting one Charlie thinking about it.

The '07 group back there may not have been as talented, but they were smart and played with intelligence, which can go a long way compared to raw ability.

Outside of Kiwanuka going down in the middle of that season, it was remarkable how healthy that a large part of that defense was for 20 games that season when they won XLII.
Terps, my area of excitement often differs from many here.  
Big Blue '56 : 9/1/2015 11:24 am : link
I am still spitting out gratefullness over 2 SBs in 7 years..Am I happy at missing the playoffs the last 3 years? No..Would I take this exact scenario over a 7 year period? 100% yes..

My other area of excitement is anticipating the play of the newbies and the youngsters, namely, Bromley, Hankins, Odi, Moore, Ellis, Selvie, Kennard, JT Thomas, perhaps Unga if he makes it, Prince, Collins, DRC..Any reasoned fan knows this has to take time and will take time..I will be patient..When I get antsy, I just close my eyes and think of those two fantastic runs we had..Two for the ages..
front 4 and 7 in 2007 were MILES  
Paulie Walnuts : 9/1/2015 12:14 pm : link
better than the crap we have now
2008 was even better than 07.  
bLiTz 2k : 9/1/2015 5:03 pm : link
and half of BBI thinks Osi and Strahan played at all that season.

This defense has talent. It may be ugly early but just like the offense last year where most of you whiners swore it was going to be a detrement, it may eventually be a pleasant surprise.
RE: Spags had Strahan  
Vanzetti : 9/1/2015 6:58 pm : link
In comment 12446220 Ben in Tampa said:
Quote:
The best DE of his generation and young superstars all over the defensive line. The thinking is that it took two games in 07 for the players to figure out the defense, but I have often contended the turnaround coincides with Strahan rounding into game shape.

Won't be that simple this time around.


its fairly obvious that adding Strahan was the primary reason the defensive improved but it makes people feel better to think it just takes time o master Spags defense.

After all, we still have time but we don't have Strahan.
Back to the Corner