NFT: In todays, Police Officer is shot and killed news

too many police funerals these last couple weeks.

just horrible crime.

with today its 11 days and 8 killed now...
story - ( New Window )

I said when this was posted originally, there have been a ton of these shootings lately. Terrible. Prayers to him and his family and friends. RIP. God bless.

in the slightest. I will suggest, however, that the attitude about the police in many black communities has been set to explode for years now.

Ferguson isn't just about the single killing, for example Ferguson is about a town that made it's budget for years by hauling black asses into court.

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For example, in 88% of the cases in which the Ferguson police reported using force, it was against African-Americans. Also, between 2012 and 2014, black drivers were twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during traffic stops, but 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband.

There are problems, of course, nationwide, with misuse of the bail system, bullying people--especially minorities--into accepting guilty pleas to avoid pre-trial incarceration. Massive overuse of imprisonment. A failed war on drugs.

There isn't any easy answer here. Hoodlums, thugs and street gangs are taking advantage of the resentment in community after community to justify a war on cops. There have to be solutions which get rid of old police attitudes about black communities, while expanding the use of community policing and reducing incarceration.

These kinds of transitions are never easy, and there needs to be much stronger leadership within the black community to say to the thugs, "cut this shit out," and at the same time to engage police forces and legislatures to resolve the issues that led to the growing rage and resentment in the first place.

I wish there were a way to create this kind of transition that doesn't involve giving people with hate in their heart excuses for murderous behavior. I don't know what it is.
Link - ( New Window )

no faith that it will ever change. Unfortunately, people across all walks of life will be gunned down and nothing but lip service will happen in response.

were not cops being shot. According to the linked article above, one was a corrections office who had a heart attack. Three died in vehicular crashes.

In comment 12447088 manh george said:

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in the slightest. I will suggest, however, that the attitude about the police in many black communities has been set to explode for years now. Ferguson isn't just about the single killing, for example Ferguson is about a town that made it's budget for years by hauling black asses into court. Quote: For example, in 88% of the cases in which the Ferguson police reported using force, it was against African-Americans. Also, between 2012 and 2014, black drivers were twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during traffic stops, but 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband. There are problems, of course, nationwide, with misuse of the bail system, bullying people--especially minorities--into accepting guilty pleas to avoid pre-trial incarceration. Massive overuse of imprisonment. A failed war on drugs. There isn't any easy answer here. Hoodlums, thugs and street gangs are taking advantage of the resentment in community after community to justify a war on cops. There have to be solutions which get rid of old police attitudes about black communities, while expanding the use of community policing and reducing incarceration. These kinds of transitions are never easy, and there needs to be much stronger leadership within the black community to say to the thugs, "cut this shit out," and at the same time to engage police forces and legislatures to resolve the issues that led to the growing rage and resentment in the first place. I wish there were a way to create this kind of transition that doesn't involve giving people with hate in their heart excuses for murderous behavior. I don't know what it is. Link - ( New Window )

But much of this is half truth and insinuation built on anecdotes, logic that you and people of your intellect would not countenance in any other context.

is insinuation and half-truths? The nasty attitude of a very large number of small-town police systems toward minorities is insinuation and half-truths? The wildly out-of-control policing in places like Cleveland and Albuquerque is as well?

The use of the bail system to browbeat guilty pleas out of poor defendants?

Which ones are insinuations and half-truths?

Btw, I am an advocate of things like stop and frisk, because it works. But it needs to be combined with better attitudes about its use.

I am also a huge believer in community policing, in diversion programs designed to reduce the use of jails as a warehouse for addicts, and in avoiding the use of prisons to warehouse the mentally ill. And in massively better training and control of prison employees. In other words, the problems are huge and diverse, and do result in excuses for thuggish behavior that have no justification.

Again, I do not think that there are easy answers for any of this, but the cycle of resentment, thuggishness, and police with nervous trigger fingers needs to be stopped.

Right now, if I were a policeman, I would have a nervous trigger finger too. We need a way out of the cycle, and pretending that it doesn't exist won't get us anywhere.

And to the extent that there are insinuations and half-truths floating around in all of this, the ONLY solution I can see is for real black leaders to step in and help differentiate. In huge parts of the country, we need ongoing linkages between minority communities and law departments that do not yet exist. Take the thugs out of the equation wherever possible.

Give communities a reason to go to battle for the police, and this will ultimately calm back down, I think. They need to see affirmative steps being taken in order to incent them to play a much bigger role in their own community outcomes--and take the race whores out of the equation along with the thugs.

Again, I am not excusing the behaviors. I am saying that this is a massive set of issues that has allowed innuendo and half-truths to take hold. The cycle has to be reversed, before we have a chance of changing the behavior.

So now any perceived to be from "the system" by others on the wrong side of the law is fair game.

Its the reverse of police attitudes towards minorities.

Very sad. Its going to take a long time to set things right.

In comment 12447256 WideRight said:

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So now any perceived to be from "the system" by others on the wrong side of the law is fair game. Its the reverse of police attitudes towards minorities. Very sad. Its going to take a long time to set things right.

its just ridiculous

Interestng that some of the people who are most offended about judging groups, want to group the entire Police profession in to one group.

NYPD is 20,000 + - every walk of life, every race, color, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation and so on.

Also in the news from the other side...

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KSAT.COM EXCLUSIVE: Unedited video of fatal deputy-involved shooting SAN ANTONIO - The unedited version of a video obtained by KSAT 12 News showing the fatal shooting of a man by two Bexar County sheriff deputies will now be made available for online viewing.

Link - ( New Window )

And that had nothing to do with the single shooting that set a lot of this off. Read the link. They were using fines, massively and disproportionately from blacks, to fund the judicial system.

And if it is clearly the case that the entire system had racist undertones, doesn't that increase the likelihood that some people would believe that the Michael Brown case was handled in a biased manner? I'm not saying that it was, but the system itself helped influence attitudes.

Again, we need a multi-multi-multi dimensional approach to turning this around, including every part of the justice system, plus community leadership, plus political leaders. It is going to take a very long time to make much progress, and that is very sad.

Cops enter wrong house, shoot the owner, shoot and kill his dog, cop shoots another cop.

...

"A police officer who was shot in the hip while responding to the wrong Atlanta-area home appears to have been shot by one of his colleagues, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation said Tuesday.

The incident also left the homeowner wounded, from a gunshot wound, and the homeowner's dog dead, according to police."
Should be Shopping Mall Security Guards ruin more people's lives - ( New Window )

"Cell phone video obtained by CNN affiliate KSAT appears to show sheriff's deputies in Bexar County, Texas, shooting and killing the 41-year-old Friday.

"He put his hands in the air and then he had his hands up for a few seconds and the cops shot him twice," Michael Thomas, the man who filmed the video, told CNN."
Video shows man lift hands before being shot by Texas deputies - ( New Window )

RIP to the brave officer that gave his life while protecting ours.

In comment 12447293 manh george said:

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And that had nothing to do with the single shooting that set a lot of this off. Read the link. They were using fines, massively and disproportionately from blacks, to fund the judicial system. And if it is clearly the case that the entire system had racist undertones, doesn't that increase the likelihood that some people would believe that the Michael Brown case was handled in a biased manner? I'm not saying that it was, but the system itself helped influence attitudes. Again, we need a multi-multi-multi dimensional approach to turning this around, including every part of the justice system, plus community leadership, plus political leaders. It is going to take a very long time to make much progress, and that is very sad.

So you are essentially stating that the based on a few places like Ferguson, which you feel is racist that the entire system is racist?

Bail is not used to get a guilty plea from the accused. It is used to ensure that they show up for court. If you get arrested and cant afford to bond your self out of jail you then go before a judge for a first appearance hearing within 48-72 hours of your arrest.

Here is a radical idea for change that applies to everyone... IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE ARRESTED THEN STOP BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW!!

very, very scary. More police shootings, more responses, more nervous cops, more police shootings, more responses.

As I said above:

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Right now, if I were a policeman, I would have a nervous trigger finger too. We need a way out of the cycle, and pretending that it doesn't exist won't get us anywhere.

You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good...

In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said:

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You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good...

huh... are you kidding? they do more harm than good? they take bullets while people run away. To generalize all of them is stupid and ignorant... you are just doing the same thing

You can't be serious.

I am saying that there are pockets of racism, out-of-control police departments and out-of-control local judiciaries, and these tend to lead to assumptions elsewhere. There is no doubt that Ferguson was an outlyer, along with Cleveland and Albequerque. Probably San Francisco too (link). Probably some local communities in the Northwest, from incidents that happened there. Probably some smaller communities in suburban/rural areas throughout the country.

On highways, too. I have no doubt that "driving while black" is a real thing--on the Interstate in New Jersey, as an example. Statistics are pretty much irrefutable.

I am saying that there are enough "pockets" to give minority communities a distorted belief system about police systems generally, and that feeds the cycle.

My discussions are not about placing blame. They are about finding a way out of a very scary cycle and taking excuses out of the minds of thugs. Police cams are an important step, btw. They tend to lead to more trust and fewer shootings per 1000 incidents.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said:

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You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good...

Fine. Pull them out and see how much less harm there is.

how we select, evaluate, and train police officers. It really pisses me off to see off the cuff comments like this one...

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Here is a radical idea for change that applies to everyone... IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE ARRESTED THEN STOP BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW!!

Easy for someone who is not likely to get profiled to say stupid shit like this.

In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said:

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You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good...

You are a worthless piece of shit. Positively celebrating the death of a nameless public servant. What have you done for the minority community, or any community, save stealing oxygen?

In comment 12447350 njm said:

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In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said: Quote: You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good... Fine. Pull them out and see how much less harm there is.

Actually just this past Christmas the cops just stopped doing their jobs and NOTHING happened.
The NYPD is Essentially Refusing to do Its Job and Yet New York Hasn’t Collapsed into Chaos Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/nypd-essentially-refusing-job-york-collapsed-chaos/#1tiP1RsBueLOjtHs.99 - ( New Window )

but im not crying about it or trying to fight an officer. Sorry but one has a gun and i dont.

In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said:

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You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good...

The prick meter just blew up. After hitting an alltime high.

In comment 12447357 Sarasota-Phil said:

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In comment 12447350 njm said: Quote: In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said: Quote: You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good... Fine. Pull them out and see how much less harm there is. Actually just this past Christmas the cops just stopped doing their jobs and NOTHING happened. The NYPD is Essentially Refusing to do Its Job and Yet New York Hasn’t Collapsed into Chaos Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/nypd-essentially-refusing-job-york-collapsed-chaos/#1tiP1RsBueLOjtHs.99 - ( New Window )

actually the stop and frisk law left and crime has gone up since then

In comment 12447355 Dunedin81 said:

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In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said: Quote: You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good... You are a worthless piece of shit. Positively celebrating the death of a nameless public servant. What have you done for the minority community, or any community, save stealing oxygen?

Where was he positively celebrating the death of a cop? All I got was that he doesn't think much of the police as an institution overall. Why don't you go bitch about Mt Denali?

In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said:

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You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good...

Yep, get rid of cops and their lives will improve. SMH.

In comment 12447346 manh george said:

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I am saying that there are pockets of racism, out-of-control police departments and out-of-control local judiciaries, and these tend to lead to assumptions elsewhere. There is no doubt that Ferguson was an outlyer, along with Cleveland and Albequerque. Probably San Francisco too (link). Probably some local communities in the Northwest, from incidents that happened there. Probably some smaller communities in suburban/rural areas throughout the country. On highways, too. I have no doubt that "driving while black" is a real thing--on the Interstate in New Jersey, as an example. Statistics are pretty much irrefutable.

Again you are using certain areas to generalize the entire system. How about in communities in Alaska, North and South Dakota, Iowa, Nebraska, Vermont, Maine, Hawaii? what are the stats from those places?

The statistic tend to reflect how the population is distributed. Most major cities have populations that are heavy on the minority side so of course there are more statistics that show higher minority arrests.

If you have a jar of marbles and 3/4 of them are red, then chances of pulling out a red marble is higher that the other colors. You pull out 100 marbles then most of the marbles that you pull out will be red.

.

Lets just deal with facts, Sarasota-Phil pulled out some good ones and David in LA sees where I'm coming from, DID I say IM GLAD THAT COP IS DEAD? Nope....people cant read anymore

In comment 12447357 Sarasota-Phil said:

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In comment 12447350 njm said: Quote: In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said: Quote: You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good... Fine. Pull them out and see how much less harm there is. Actually just this past Christmas the cops just stopped doing their jobs and NOTHING happened. The NYPD is Essentially Refusing to do Its Job and Yet New York Hasn’t Collapsed into Chaos Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/nypd-essentially-refusing-job-york-collapsed-chaos/#1tiP1RsBueLOjtHs.99 - ( New Window )

You're driving a truck through the "essentially" pinhole.

BTW - That's the first time I've seen the names Ramos and Liu in months. Of course, the article, from that unbiased source "the free thought project" was from last December.

In comment 12447380 Moondawg said:

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In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said: Quote: You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good... Yep, get rid of cops and their lives will improve. SMH.

Pandering to authority definitely helps improve quality of life, but that's only if you're not on the lower end of the socio-economic scale.

In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said:

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You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good...

Wow, leave a few breadcrumbs and the vermin are drawn out of their holes.

In comment 12447357 Sarasota-Phil said:

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In comment 12447350 njm said: Quote: In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said: Quote: You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good... Fine. Pull them out and see how much less harm there is. Actually just this past Christmas the cops just stopped doing their jobs and NOTHING happened. The NYPD is Essentially Refusing to do Its Job and Yet New York Hasn’t Collapsed into Chaos Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/nypd-essentially-refusing-job-york-collapsed-chaos/#1tiP1RsBueLOjtHs.99 - ( New Window )

So somewhere in that article is evidence that the police stopped patrolling and suddenly became invisible? Can you show that to me? Please?

you should be ashamed of yourselves. "Structural racism made someone walk up to a deputy at a gas station and execute him." Bullshit. You're all pathetic.

I am talking about how pockets of bad behavior lead to attitudes. Do you really think that the out-of-control cops in Cleveland and Albuquerque were a result of having a high proportion of minorities? Really? Or that statistics that showed a VAST overstopping of blacks on the Interstate in New Jersey were made up?

See if you can follow this. I am saying that there are:

--clearly pockets of racism;

--clearly overuse of prisons on the poor, which happens to include a disproportionate number of minorities;

--An out-of-control incompetent bail and plea-bargaining system;

--Vastly too much use of prisons to solve our problems.

And, that the fact that these patterns exist fuel attitudes in minority communities, and provide the worst of them with excuses for thuggish behavior.

In order to solve the attitude problems that lead to a vast increase in thuggish behavior, we need to break the cycle. Obviously, that requires believing that there is something to change, which in your case would require you to do a little homework. I am not optimistic.

In comment 12447373 David in LA said:

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In comment 12447355 Dunedin81 said: Quote: In comment 12447329 SicilianGMEN said: Quote: You almighty cop supporters are fucking annoying, they do much more harm to most minority communities than they've ever done good... You are a worthless piece of shit. Positively celebrating the death of a nameless public servant. What have you done for the minority community, or any community, save stealing oxygen? Where was he positively celebrating the death of a cop? All I got was that he doesn't think much of the police as an institution overall. Why don't you go bitch about Mt Denali?

Complaining about a thread marking the death of a public servant is pathetic. You supporting him is also pathetic.

MG was providing context as to why there's a toxic rift between police and minorities. Not justifying it. Not celebrating it. Not excusing it. Go bitch about Obama.

In comment 12447442 manh george said:

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I am talking about how pockets of bad behavior lead to attitudes. Do you really think that the out-of-control cops in Cleveland and Albuquerque were a result of having a high proportion of minorities? Really? Or that statistics that showed a VAST overstopping of blacks on the Interstate in New Jersey were made up? See if you can follow this. I am saying that there are: --clearly pockets of racism; --clearly overuse of prisons on the poor, which happens to include a disproportionate number of minorities; --An out-of-control incompetent bail and plea-bargaining system; --Vastly too much use of prisons to solve our problems. And, that the fact that these patterns exist fuel attitudes in minority communities, and provide the worst of them with excuses for thuggish behavior. In order to solve the attitude problems that lead to a vast increase in thuggish behavior, we need to break the cycle. Obviously, that requires believing that there is something to change, which in your case would require you to do a little homework. I am not optimistic.

Really? People shoot and kill their peers because of bad cops? That's the most obtuse sort of logic.

In comment 12447446 David in LA said:

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MG was providing context as to why there's a toxic rift between police and minorities. Not justifying it. Not celebrating it. Not excusing it. Go bitch about Obama.

Whether MG's intercession was appropriately timed or not, at least there is thought behind what he said. There is little or none behind the posts you're "mmhmm"ing.

Sorry I wasn't clearer.

worth the time and effort to argue with, since all you're doing is taking other people's comments out of context and getting your panties in a knot. I drop by to talk sports, and read up on other stuff I find interesting. I'm sorry if your interpretation of "that's not quite what he said" is "mmmhmming". You're a pathetic shitstain who constantly needs to bitch.

In comment 12447453 manh george said:

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Sorry I wasn't clearer.

These issues are beyond muddled. At the end of the day there are few jobs more thankless (regardless of the officer's skin color) than policing high risk neighborhoods. And it is very easy for us to stand back and say that this or that decision was awful (and some of them unequivocally were and merit punishment). But why should a young black man's life count only when he is a "bad shoot" (or a debatably bad shoot) for law enforcement?

In comment 12447460 David in LA said:

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worth the time and effort to argue with, since all you're doing is taking other people's comments out of context and getting your panties in a knot. I drop by to talk sports, and read up on other stuff I find interesting. I'm sorry if your interpretation of "that's not quite what he said" is "mmmhmming". You're a pathetic shitstain who constantly needs to bitch.

To be fair, everyone else but you interpreted what he said the exact same way. With those numbers, it's probably incumbent on the speaker to make his point more clearly.

In comment 12447460 David in LA said:

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worth the time and effort to argue with, since all you're doing is taking other people's comments out of context and getting your panties in a knot. I drop by to talk sports, and read up on other stuff I find interesting. I'm sorry if your interpretation of "that's not quite what he said" is "mmmhmming". You're a pathetic shitstain who constantly needs to bitch.

Go fuck yourself. The next time you or a loved one has an emergency or is the victim of a crime, why don't you tell the responding officer how highly you think of his profession?

.

but I do think there are significant areas they need to address. Of course, you're too stubborn to agree on that part. If you have a badge, you're held to a higher standard than the run of the mill citizen. That's not a tough concept to understand, and neither is the concept that police are not above criticism.

I might not see those names again for another 7 months so I figure they're worth repeating. I know I'll see Michael Brown more days than not.

.

In comment 12447460 David in LA said:

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worth the time and effort to argue with, since all you're doing is taking other people's comments out of context and getting your panties in a knot. I drop by to talk sports, and read up on other stuff I find interesting. I'm sorry if your interpretation of "that's not quite what he said" is "mmmhmming". You're a pathetic shitstain who constantly needs to bitch.

"Go bitch about Obama." Go bitch about Denali." ".....pathetic shitstain...."

Please, Dave, kindly go fuck yourself.

but that's a thread that's been deleted.

In comment 12447480 David in LA said:

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but I do think there are significant areas they need to address. Of course, you're too stubborn to agree on that part. If you have a badge, you're held to a higher standard than the run of the mill citizen. That's not a tough concept to understand, and neither is the concept that police are not above criticism.

Nobody here is arguing that the police are above criticism. What people are arguing is that a thread marking the death of another police officer might not be the place to devolve into people's traditional bitches, gripes and complaints about the police.

In comment 12447352 David in LA said:

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how we select, evaluate, and train police officers. It really pisses me off to see off the cuff comments like this one... Quote: Here is a radical idea for change that applies to everyone... IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE ARRESTED THEN STOP BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW!! Easy for someone who is not likely to get profiled to say stupid shit like this.

Bingo David. I couldn't believe that sentence when I read it. Are we now to believe that everyone who is arrested should be presumed guilty?

and that crime is at the root of it all? Or maybe poverty is at the root of it all (or some other socioeconomic thing like 2-parent families or welfare or whatever). If there was less urban crime, then wouldn't there be less profiling and wouldn't there also be fewer rash decision-making or skitteriness or whatever by police?

is an idiot and doesn't really know what he is talking about.

In comment 12447529 madgiantscow009 said:

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is an idiot and doesn't really know what he is talking about.

You don't have to agree with him I often don't. But the guy is no idiot. Quite the opposite in fact.

In comment 12447447 Dunedin81 said:

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In comment 12447442 manh george said: Quote: I am talking about how pockets of bad behavior lead to attitudes. Do you really think that the out-of-control cops in Cleveland and Albuquerque were a result of having a high proportion of minorities? Really? Or that statistics that showed a VAST overstopping of blacks on the Interstate in New Jersey were made up? See if you can follow this. I am saying that there are: --clearly pockets of racism; --clearly overuse of prisons on the poor, which happens to include a disproportionate number of minorities; --An out-of-control incompetent bail and plea-bargaining system; --Vastly too much use of prisons to solve our problems. And, that the fact that these patterns exist fuel attitudes in minority communities, and provide the worst of them with excuses for thuggish behavior. In order to solve the attitude problems that lead to a vast increase in thuggish behavior, we need to break the cycle. Obviously, that requires believing that there is something to change, which in your case would require you to do a little homework. I am not optimistic. Really? People shoot and kill their peers because of bad cops? That's the most obtuse sort of logic.

I'm not following where you get that from Dunedin

I misunderstood him to mean criminality more broadly when he specifically meant attacks on law enforcement. Whatever my disagreements are with that point, it means something else entirely than my initial understanding.

In comment 12447501 Dunedin81 said:

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In comment 12447480 David in LA said: Quote: but I do think there are significant areas they need to address. Of course, you're too stubborn to agree on that part. If you have a badge, you're held to a higher standard than the run of the mill citizen. That's not a tough concept to understand, and neither is the concept that police are not above criticism. Nobody here is arguing that the police are above criticism. What people are arguing is that a thread marking the death of another police officer might not be the place to devolve into people's traditional bitches, gripes and complaints about the police.

I don't think MG was bitching about the police. I think he was discussing the atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur.

In comment 12447540 Dunedin81 said:

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I misunderstood him to mean criminality more broadly when he specifically meant attacks on law enforcement. Whatever my disagreements are with that point, it means something else entirely than my initial understanding.

Gotcha. I posted that before I read further in the thread

In comment 12447528 Bill L said:

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and that crime is at the root of it all? Or maybe poverty is at the root of it all (or some other socioeconomic thing like 2-parent families or welfare or whatever). If there was less urban crime, then wouldn't there be less profiling and wouldn't there also be fewer rash decision-making or skitteriness or whatever by police?

I'm inclined to agree with this. Furthermore, why such a wide gap in wealth between whites and blacks, why are their less 2 parent families, less homeowners? I don't think blacks ever got a fair shake. They have seen wins along the way, but not without resistance, and not without having to be vocal about it. The main function of institutionalized racism is designed to dissuade socio-economic mobility.

In comment 12447545 River Mike said:

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In comment 12447501 Dunedin81 said: Quote: In comment 12447480 David in LA said: Quote: but I do think there are significant areas they need to address. Of course, you're too stubborn to agree on that part. If you have a badge, you're held to a higher standard than the run of the mill citizen. That's not a tough concept to understand, and neither is the concept that police are not above criticism. Nobody here is arguing that the police are above criticism. What people are arguing is that a thread marking the death of another police officer might not be the place to devolve into people's traditional bitches, gripes and complaints about the police. I don't think MG was bitching about the police. I think he was discussing the atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur.

This might come across as more Facebook meme than anything else, but when that piece of shit gunned down innocent people in a church the narrative became his motives. When another piece of shit gunned down two reporters while spouting racist nonsense, it became a gun/mental health issue. And when a man executed a police officer in Houston, presumably for reasons related to the race of both and the occupation of one, it was a mental health issue. Maybe the "atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur" is an atmosphere in which hyperbole about the police is accepted uncritically. Most people don't take this as encouragement to commit violence, but on the fringes of sanity and criminality some do.

In comment 12447547 David in LA said:

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In comment 12447528 Bill L said: Quote: and that crime is at the root of it all? Or maybe poverty is at the root of it all (or some other socioeconomic thing like 2-parent families or welfare or whatever). If there was less urban crime, then wouldn't there be less profiling and wouldn't there also be fewer rash decision-making or skitteriness or whatever by police? I'm inclined to agree with this. Furthermore, why such a wide gap in wealth between whites and blacks, why are their less 2 parent families, less homeowners? I don't think blacks ever got a fair shake. They have seen wins along the way, but not without resistance, and not without having to be vocal about it. The main function of institutionalized racism is designed to dissuade socio-economic mobility.

But again, that's more shibboleth than reality. To deny the existence of any racism is to bury one's head in the sand, but social and economic stability has a lot more to do with criminality or any of the unfortunate social pathologies than does skin color.

In comment 12447547 David in LA said:

Quote:

In comment 12447528 Bill L said: Quote: and that crime is at the root of it all? Or maybe poverty is at the root of it all (or some other socioeconomic thing like 2-parent families or welfare or whatever). If there was less urban crime, then wouldn't there be less profiling and wouldn't there also be fewer rash decision-making or skitteriness or whatever by police? I'm inclined to agree with this. Furthermore, why such a wide gap in wealth between whites and blacks, why are their less 2 parent families, less homeowners? I don't think blacks ever got a fair shake. They have seen wins along the way, but not without resistance, and not without having to be vocal about it. The main function of institutionalized racism is designed to dissuade socio-economic mobility.

David, the issues you talk about certainly have a racial component but they are much more broadly based than just race. It gets back to the wealth, privilege, education, opportunities and cronyism at the higher economic levels and the declining mobility of the middle and lower classes. But I suppose that's a discussion for another thread

In comment 12447521 River Mike said:

Quote:

In comment 12447352 David in LA said: Quote: how we select, evaluate, and train police officers. It really pisses me off to see off the cuff comments like this one... Quote: Here is a radical idea for change that applies to everyone... IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE ARRESTED THEN STOP BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW!! Easy for someone who is not likely to get profiled to say stupid shit like this. Bingo David. I couldn't believe that sentence when I read it. Are we now to believe that everyone who is arrested should be presumed guilty?

Not everyone who is profiled is arrested.

In comment 12447556 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

In comment 12447547 David in LA said: Quote: In comment 12447528 Bill L said: Quote: and that crime is at the root of it all? Or maybe poverty is at the root of it all (or some other socioeconomic thing like 2-parent families or welfare or whatever). If there was less urban crime, then wouldn't there be less profiling and wouldn't there also be fewer rash decision-making or skitteriness or whatever by police? I'm inclined to agree with this. Furthermore, why such a wide gap in wealth between whites and blacks, why are their less 2 parent families, less homeowners? I don't think blacks ever got a fair shake. They have seen wins along the way, but not without resistance, and not without having to be vocal about it. The main function of institutionalized racism is designed to dissuade socio-economic mobility. But again, that's more shibboleth than reality. To deny the existence of any racism is to bury one's head in the sand, but social and economic stability has a lot more to do with criminality or any of the unfortunate social pathologies than does skin color.

Moynahan wrote that 50 years ago and is still hated for it, even thought there's a lot of truth to it.

In comment 12447554 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

In comment 12447545 River Mike said: Quote: In comment 12447501 Dunedin81 said: Quote: In comment 12447480 David in LA said: Quote: but I do think there are significant areas they need to address. Of course, you're too stubborn to agree on that part. If you have a badge, you're held to a higher standard than the run of the mill citizen. That's not a tough concept to understand, and neither is the concept that police are not above criticism. Nobody here is arguing that the police are above criticism. What people are arguing is that a thread marking the death of another police officer might not be the place to devolve into people's traditional bitches, gripes and complaints about the police. I don't think MG was bitching about the police. I think he was discussing the atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur. [quote] Most people don't take this as encouragement to commit violence, but on the fringes of sanity and criminality some do.

Ain't it the truth!

but I also dont think you can overlook the real complaint of minorities about the police. I havent had to deal with cops much. Most of the time they're nice guys. I've dealt with the dick-with-a-badge cop too. Some police forces are worse than others in the ratio of good cop/dick cop. Some precincts are worse. Go talk to some cops and there is a real war zone/bunker mentality, and it bleeds over to policing.

Then look at what some minorities are seeing. Seemingly unjustified deaths at the hands of police. A feeling of helplessness. And Stop and Frisk (aka you dont get 4th amendment rights if you're a young black man). If the NYPD was stopping white kids on the Upper East Side based on neighborhood + "furtive movement", that shit would have been shut down in 72 hours.

In comment 12447564 River Mike said:

Quote:

Most people don't take this as encouragement to commit violence, but on the fringes of sanity and criminality some do. Ain't it the truth!

As is the section of his statement that you didn't include.

In comment 12447574 Deej said:

Quote:

but I also dont think you can overlook the real complaint of minorities about the police. I havent had to deal with cops much. Most of the time they're nice guys. I've dealt with the dick-with-a-badge cop too. Some police forces are worse than others in the ratio of good cop/dick cop. Some precincts are worse. Go talk to some cops and there is a real war zone/bunker mentality, and it bleeds over to policing. Then look at what some minorities are seeing. Seemingly unjustified deaths at the hands of police. A feeling of helplessness. And Stop and Frisk (aka you dont get 4th amendment rights if you're a young black man). If the NYPD was stopping white kids on the Upper East Side based on neighborhood + "furtive movement", that shit would have been shut down in 72 hours.

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but people act as though it's as intuitive as tossing around a few slogans about "Community policing" and the like. When a young man is gunned down at a party or in public and there are zero witnesses, you've got a problem. How is that man any less dead than Michael Brown or Freddie Gray? You can prosecute bad cops, you can train and retrain, you can revamp your SOPs, but like it or not you're going to stop only a small minority of deaths of African American men, and it may be a net uptick in deaths if more aggressive policing would have prevented some of it.

In comment 12447554 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

In comment 12447545 River Mike said: Quote: In comment 12447501 Dunedin81 said: Quote: In comment 12447480 David in LA said: Quote: but I do think there are significant areas they need to address. Of course, you're too stubborn to agree on that part. If you have a badge, you're held to a higher standard than the run of the mill citizen. That's not a tough concept to understand, and neither is the concept that police are not above criticism. Nobody here is arguing that the police are above criticism. What people are arguing is that a thread marking the death of another police officer might not be the place to devolve into people's traditional bitches, gripes and complaints about the police. I don't think MG was bitching about the police. I think he was discussing the atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur. This might come across as more Facebook meme than anything else, but when that piece of shit gunned down innocent people in a church the narrative became his motives. When another piece of shit gunned down two reporters while spouting racist nonsense, it became a gun/mental health issue. And when a man executed a police officer in Houston, presumably for reasons related to the race of both and the occupation of one, it was a mental health issue. Maybe the "atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur" is an atmosphere in which hyperbole about the police is accepted uncritically. Most people don't take this as encouragement to commit violence, but on the fringes of sanity and criminality some do.

That's a fair point.

I do however think about Malcolm X's "chickens coming home to roost" statement.

The police are being called out to behave as they ought to.

And then we have people randomly killing cops in the name of those killed. Exhibiting homicidal behavior can never be excused.

We have a shit of a mess and I tend to lean on the side of cops needing to be held accountable always. And then if a cop-killing happens as retribution, justice needs to be handed out accordingly. It all just sucks.

more police accountability would go a long way. You say you can prosecute bad cops, but those prosecutions are few and far between. You're seeing some high profile prosecutions right now, but those are where there is video tape of a cop allegedly injuring a suspect. When I was a kid, cop cases got moved to Albany, and then the cop got off. Like clockwork.

One asshole, unfit cop out of 100 ruins the reputation of the whole force, and ruins some police-community relations. And the ratio is a lot more than 1:100. And cops and their unions are very good at making sure that it is hard to discipline a cop. Reports dont get filed. The Blue Wall. Etc.

Who'd a thunk.

Good points to all that perservered.

You're trying to address this with consideration and so I think it appropriate to respond in kind, but isn't that sort of logic helping to contribute to the problem? How is the minority beat cop in the Bronx responsible for the deputy in rural bumblefuck who issues 10 warnings for every ticket responsible for the overly aggressive SWAT team member in metropolitan police force? You certainly wouldn't accept the notion that people of a demographic group or even people in a particular neighborhood should suffer, or that it is acceptable that they suffer, for the sins of similarly situated people?

In comment 12447598 Deej said:

Quote:

more police accountability would go a long way. You say you can prosecute bad cops, but those prosecutions are few and far between. You're seeing some high profile prosecutions right now, but those are where there is video tape of a cop allegedly injuring a suspect. When I was a kid, cop cases got moved to Albany, and then the cop got off. Like clockwork. One asshole, unfit cop out of 100 ruins the reputation of the whole force, and ruins some police-community relations. And the ratio is a lot more than 1:100. And cops and their unions are very good at making sure that it is hard to discipline a cop. Reports dont get filed. The Blue Wall. Etc.

There are certainly issues with discipline and slaps on the wrist for serious misconduct (some of them ironically the consequence of collective bargaining), but to compare where we are now to where we were twenty or thirty years ago is night and day.

to a generation ago. I wont compare how many black people are killed by street criminals vs. how many are killed by cops. These are fairly irrelevant. There isnt a sliding scale of getting better. There is a problem of routine police misconduct in this country, especially towards poor minorities. Some of it is on orders (stop & frisk). Some of it is just pervasive (physically rough treatment). It happens a lot, and it goes is largely unpunished. The big stuff (killing) gets punished sometimes, and stuff caught on video gets punished. But there is day to day misconduct that goes unpunished.

Now, does that justify violence towards police? Absolutely not. Can you paint all cops with this broad brush? Absolutely not.

In comment 12447639 Deej said:

Quote:

to a generation ago. I wont compare how many black people are killed by street criminals vs. how many are killed by cops. These are fairly irrelevant. There isnt a sliding scale of getting better. There is a problem of routine police misconduct in this country, especially towards poor minorities. Some of it is on orders (stop & frisk). Some of it is just pervasive (physically rough treatment). It happens a lot, and it goes is largely unpunished. The big stuff (killing) gets punished sometimes, and stuff caught on video gets punished. But there is day to day misconduct that goes unpunished. Now, does that justify violence towards police? Absolutely not. Can you paint all cops with this broad brush? Absolutely not.

But it isn't irrelevant. The mechanisms that will reduce police use of force, particularly lethal force, will involve less aggressive policing, less stop and frisk, less stops that are lawful but essentially pretextual. And the result of this in the short term, perhaps in the long term too, is likely to be more violence. Now that isn't to say that we shouldn't make these changes, but understand that there are tradeoffs, and an increase in violent crime is likely to disproportionately impact poor and minority victims.

In comment 12447711 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

But it isn't irrelevant. The mechanisms that will reduce police use of force, particularly lethal force, will involve less aggressive policing, less stop and frisk, less stops that are lawful but essentially pretextual. And the result of this in the short term, perhaps in the long term too, is likely to be more violence. Now that isn't to say that we shouldn't make these changes, but understand that there are tradeoffs, and an increase in violent crime is likely to disproportionately impact poor and minority victims.

I dont see how a comparison of the way things were to how they are is relevant.

The other issue is more fair. If we're willing to do things that are unconstitutional like stop and frisk -- and I dont even think it was arguably constitutional as the NYPD deployed it -- I could come up with lots of ways to protect ordinary poor minorities. I could round up every black male 16-30 and incarcerate him regardless of whether he's done anything wrong. The statistics say it would reduce street crime. It would also turn every black person against the police though, and could even cause more violent crime over time. We could also reduce murders by banning private ownership of firearms, and impose very hard penalties for violations (say mandatory life sentence, $250k fine, and asset forfeiture -- if we find a gun in a home, we take the home regardless of who owns it).

But put all that aside. What about just grossly excessive use of force and gross hostility by police towards young minorities (verbal abuse). My belief is that it happens all the time; you may disagree. Im unaware of any evidence that "cracking skulls" reduces crime.

I don't like stop and frisk, I don't want to see it come to my neighborhood (personal or professional), because based on what I understand the tradeoffs between liberty and security to be I do not think it is appropriate. But I also didn't live in the city during the Dinkins years, so I respect that others feel differently. I don't like pretextual stops, but I also understand that they have an impact on drug distribution. Same deal. A rational evaluation of positives and negatives.

I don't approve of police "cracking skulls" either and I have little doubt that it still happens (though I doubt it happens as much as you think it does). Certainly rough talk happens as well; no matter how difficult their jobs or how shittily they are treated we absolutely should expect more from police officers.

But these issues are impossible to divorce from the wider issues in these neighborhoods, and even the attempts to argue that over time violence will subside as relationships between the community and police improve seem fanciful. That MAY happen, but it is not going to be a quick improvement and the likelihood is that things will get worse before they get better.

in what is being treated as a homicide. Early in the investigation though.
Link - ( New Window )

this went predictably

RIP to those cops. there's a lot i don't agree with regarding police as an institution but regardless, on a person-to-person level i feel nothing but empathy for these police officers.

So was the man killed by Texas cops even though his hands were up.

Here's an example of the attitude rift we're facing--both among minorities, and among the hard right on the far other side.

On Brietbart, a call for greater use of police cams is attacked as "blaming the victim."

And yet, some studies have indicated pretty strongly that increased use of police cams reduces BOTH incidents of aggressive policing, and false accusations of aggressive policing. If accurate, this would help with what I have talking about throughout this thread, which is finding ways to break the cycle of:

--overly aggressive policing--where it exists to

--contempt for police even where it doesn't exist to

--killings of police by thugs who think they have an excuse, to

--highly edgy police who shoot more frequently out of genuine fear for their lives in this highly charged atmosphere.

It could very well be that police cams are one tool in breaking that cycle. But not in the Breitbart world.

We need leadership consensus, and we need plans, now more than ever, or poor neighborhoods will be in greater danger, and cops will be as well. Rage on both extremes is no solution at all.

And I also believe that every bit of raw footage be posted publicly every day. It's useful not only to see how police act but also who and what they deal with every day, good and bad.

C*#^

my fault, that was a different murdered police officer.

.

.

police officers to Obama?

Moronic comments come from all sides, but they're not necessarily indicative of movements or political parties as a whole. Whatever horseshit you were attempting to accomplish is no more intelligent than the idiot whose comments you posted.

.

comments. I don't care, I came across this comment in a news story, found it offensive and I shared it.

not sure why you feel offended that I shared it or guilty about anything, but that's on you.

In comment 12447994 manh george said:

Quote:

Here's an example of the attitude rift we're facing--both among minorities, and among the hard right on the far other side. On Brietbart, a call for greater use of police cams is attacked as "blaming the victim." And yet, some studies have indicated pretty strongly that increased use of police cams reduces BOTH incidents of aggressive policing, and false accusations of aggressive policing. If accurate, this would help with what I have talking about throughout this thread, which is finding ways to break the cycle of: --overly aggressive policing--where it exists to --contempt for police even where it doesn't exist to --killings of police by thugs who think they have an excuse, to --highly edgy police who shoot more frequently out of genuine fear for their lives in this highly charged atmosphere. It could very well be that police cams are one tool in breaking that cycle. But not in the Breitbart world. We need leadership consensus, and we need plans, now more than ever, or poor neighborhoods will be in greater danger, and cops will be as well. Rage on both extremes is no solution at all.

I'm surprised Breitbart had time enough to cover this in between fawning adulation of all things Trump.

Body cameras are an important tool, but we do need to understand some of their implications. When it comes to prosecution they're a huge manpower commitment (think about the implications for discovery in even misdemeanor cases). Are states and localities going to fund these positions? And are we the people actually comfortable being recorded in every interaction with the police? This includes our worst moments, which would conceivably be FOIA-able. Again, on the balance I think they should win. But they're an imperfect solution.

You said, "Black Lives Matter supporter..."

You post something that adds no value whatsoever to the discussion, whose sole purpose is to denigrate a movement you don't care for, then say "What did I do?" when I called you out on it. But, hey, I guess that's on me for falling for an idiot troll's post.

it was from the breitbart article headline, I should have linked it, didn't think anyone was going to be so offended by it.

Quote:

Slain Cop Deserved Execution and Had ‘Creepy Perv Eyes,’ Says #BlackLivesMatter Supporter

I'm out, knew i should have stayed off this thread.
It was from the article headline - ( New Window )

In comment 12447574 Deej said:

Quote:

but I also dont think you can overlook the real complaint of minorities about the police. I havent had to deal with cops much. Most of the time they're nice guys. I've dealt with the dick-with-a-badge cop too. Some police forces are worse than others in the ratio of good cop/dick cop. Some precincts are worse. Go talk to some cops and there is a real war zone/bunker mentality, and it bleeds over to policing. Then look at what some minorities are seeing. Seemingly unjustified deaths at the hands of police. A feeling of helplessness. And Stop and Frisk (aka you dont get 4th amendment rights if you're a young black man). If the NYPD was stopping white kids on the Upper East Side based on neighborhood + "furtive movement", that shit would have been shut down in 72 hours.

This post is a very accurate description of the reality of minority policing. Thank you.

In comment 12448072 shockeyisthebest8056 said:

Quote:

You said, "Black Lives Matter supporter..." You post something that adds no value whatsoever to the discussion, whose sole purpose is to denigrate a movement you don't care for, then say "What did I do?" when I called you out on it. But, hey, I guess that's on me for falling for an idiot troll's post.

I don't care for the "Black Lives Matter" slogan, either. I firmly believe that African Americans and Latinos do get the short end of the stick with law enforcement in many cities and towns.
It is just wrong because ALL lives matter and that would be a better slogan - it wouldn't offend every other ethnic group and it wouldn't further isolate one group of people from the other ethnic groups.

In comment 12448110 section125 said:

Quote:

In comment 12448072 shockeyisthebest8056 said: Quote: You said, "Black Lives Matter supporter..." You post something that adds no value whatsoever to the discussion, whose sole purpose is to denigrate a movement you don't care for, then say "What did I do?" when I called you out on it. But, hey, I guess that's on me for falling for an idiot troll's post. I don't care for the "Black Lives Matter" slogan, either. I firmly believe that African Americans and Latinos do get the short end of the stick with law enforcement in many cities and towns. It is just wrong because ALL lives matter and that would be a better slogan - it wouldn't offend every other ethnic group and it wouldn't further isolate one group of people from the other ethnic groups.

Black Lives DO Matter. Blue Lives Matter too though. All lives matter. Highlighting the seemingly high instance of unjustified shootings of black men is absolutely appropriate and understandable, but certainly some bearing the mantle have taken that to preach hatred. And the idea that "Blue Lives Matter" is somehow racist when a handful of officers appear to have been quite literally executed - as opposed to dying responding to domestics or even traffic stops as has been an occupational hazard for decades - is upsetting too. I've worked very closely with law enforcement for several years but this is the first time I've heard officers express concerns that they would be targeted for violence simply because they're police officers.

blaming "the system" or even cops themselves for reasons why black men are targeting cops.

Lets just continue to justify violence and crime. For all of you who think the cops are just going to start smiling at everyone tomorrow, you are nuts. Not until the streets change. That will never happen either.

So, we will just keep putting the offenders and the bad cops in jail.

1) after the recent spate of police killings of unarmed men; and

2) An even more recent spate of executions of cops...

you aren't worried that there might be something related going on, and want to look for ways to break the cycle?

Mind you, this is no way justifies what is now going on with police killings, it just means that if we don't find a way to break the cycle, there will be more dead cops, and then more trigger-happy ones. Personally, that worries me, a lot.

Finding a way to break the cycle is called "leadership."

In comment 12448079 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

it was from the breitbart article headline, I should have linked it, didn't think anyone was going to be so offended by it. Quote: Slain Cop Deserved Execution and Had ‘Creepy Perv Eyes,’ Says #BlackLivesMatter Supporter I'm out, knew i should have stayed off this thread. It was from the article headline - ( New Window )

What a fucking idiot.

In comment 12448167 halfback20 said:

Quote:

In comment 12448079 pjcas18 said: Quote: it was from the breitbart article headline, I should have linked it, didn't think anyone was going to be so offended by it. Quote: Slain Cop Deserved Execution and Had ‘Creepy Perv Eyes,’ Says #BlackLivesMatter Supporter I'm out, knew i should have stayed off this thread. It was from the article headline - ( New Window ) What a fucking idiot.

I am an idiot?

In comment 12447088 manh george said:

Quote:

in the slightest. I will suggest, however, that the attitude about the police in many black communities has been set to explode for years now. Ferguson isn't just about the single killing, for example Ferguson is about a town that made it's budget for years by hauling black asses into court. Quote: For example, in 88% of the cases in which the Ferguson police reported using force, it was against African-Americans. Also, between 2012 and 2014, black drivers were twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during traffic stops, but 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband. There are problems, of course, nationwide, with misuse of the bail system, bullying people--especially minorities--into accepting guilty pleas to avoid pre-trial incarceration. Massive overuse of imprisonment. A failed war on drugs. There isn't any easy answer here. Hoodlums, thugs and street gangs are taking advantage of the resentment in community after community to justify a war on cops. There have to be solutions which get rid of old police attitudes about black communities, while expanding the use of community policing and reducing incarceration. These kinds of transitions are never easy, and there needs to be much stronger leadership within the black community to say to the thugs, "cut this shit out," and at the same time to engage police forces and legislatures to resolve the issues that led to the growing rage and resentment in the first place. I wish there were a way to create this kind of transition that doesn't involve giving people with hate in their heart excuses for murderous behavior. I don't know what it is. Link - ( New Window )

5 posts in and this thread goes to shit

In comment 12447521 River Mike said:

Quote:

In comment 12447352 David in LA said: Quote: Ù how we select, evaluate, and train police officers. It really pisses me off to see off the cuff comments like this one... Quote: Here is a radical idea for change that applies to everyone... IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE ARRESTED THEN STOP BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW!! Easy for someone who is not likely to get profiled to say stupid shit like this. Bingo David. I couldn't believe that sentence when I read it. Are we now to believe that everyone who is arrested should be presumed guilty?

No but the problem is that people who get stopped or investigated MUST cooperate with law enforcement at virtually alm times. Yes we have rights. But some of these "innocents who get shot or beat up, dont exactly fall in line with what is asked if them. If you get arrested or detained, follow the rules and call a lawyer. If they have no reason to detain you, ask them if they plan on detaining you and wait till they say you can go.

The bottom line is that practically none of these victims of the police ever go down without a fight.

In comment 12448173 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 12448167 halfback20 said: Quote: In comment 12448079 pjcas18 said: Quote: it was from the breitbart article headline, I should have linked it, didn't think anyone was going to be so offended by it. Quote: Slain Cop Deserved Execution and Had ‘Creepy Perv Eyes,’ Says #BlackLivesMatter Supporter I'm out, knew i should have stayed off this thread. It was from the article headline - ( New Window ) What a fucking idiot. I am an idiot?

I'm talking about the idiot in the link you posted. Sorry, thought that would be clear.

In comment 12448156 manh george said:

Quote:

1) after the recent spate of police killings of unarmed men; and 2) An even more recent spate of executions of cops... you aren't worried that there might be something related going on, and want to look for ways to break the cycle? Mind you, this is no way justifies what is now going on with police killings, it just means that if we don't find a way to break the cycle, there will be more dead cops, and then more trigger-happy ones. Personally, that worries me, a lot. Finding a way to break the cycle is called "leadership."

Right, we need to break the cycle. I agree. Lets start with leadership...our President who NEVER ... NOT ONCE has said that there is a shared responsibility here. NOT ONCE has he spoken to the minority groups who ARE also committing the crimes about their behavior. He has continued to foster the divide by speaking about how the police are the issue. He will (in the same sentence) say that he values the job that the police do.. "BUT". He is creating the environment where there is retaliation against the police. He has created this hate that is out there right now. Remember, he is by nature an activist. It is in his DNA. He his continuing to play the role as activist in his new job as POTUS.

SO, if you think that a police chief is where leadership should begin, then you are wrong. It needs to begin at the top.

.

In comment 12448110 section125 said:

Quote:

It is just wrong because ALL lives matter and that would be a better slogan - it wouldn't offend every other ethnic group and it wouldn't further isolate one group of people from the other ethnic groups.

I agree with that. Of course, if you said it around Black Lives Matters (the organization) you'd be shouted down and called a racist.

In comment 12448156 manh george said:

Quote:

1) after the recent spate of police killings of unarmed men; and 2) An even more recent spate of executions of cops... you aren't worried that there might be something related going on, and want to look for ways to break the cycle? Mind you, this is no way justifies what is now going on with police killings, it just means that if we don't find a way to break the cycle, there will be more dead cops, and then more trigger-happy ones. Personally, that worries me, a lot. Finding a way to break the cycle is called "leadership."

Has there been a "recent spate of killings of unarmed black men" or has the media drawn attention to a phenomenon that has been occurring with unfortunate frequency for decades? The fact that they were unarmed is only the beginning of the inquiry; there are bad shoots of armed men and "good" shoots of unarmed men. But I'm not convinced the problem is getting worse. Isn't the trend of what is euphemistically called an "officer-involved shooting" relatively stable despite population increases? And isn't the trend of officer fatalities on the job generally downward, with a few short-duration spikes in the opposite direction? If the numbers spike this year it might be attributable to these handful of execution-style killings of LEOs, but generally speaking the trends seem more optimistic.

In comment 12447470 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

In comment 12447460 David in LA said: Quote: worth the time and effort to argue with, since all you're doing is taking other people's comments out of context and getting your panties in a knot. I drop by to talk sports, and read up on other stuff I find interesting. I'm sorry if your interpretation of "that's not quite what he said" is "mmmhmming". You're a pathetic shitstain who constantly needs to bitch. Go fuck yourself. The next time you or a loved one has an emergency or is the victim of a crime, why don't you tell the responding officer how highly you think of his profession?

Amen to that. Nuf said.

what is the point of posting one stupid tweet by a nobody college junior? Other than being inflammatory, I just dont get it.

In comment 12448130 EricJ said:

Quote:

blaming "the system" or even cops themselves for reasons why black men are targeting cops. Lets just continue to justify violence and crime. For all of you who think the cops are just going to start smiling at everyone tomorrow, you are nuts. Not until the streets change. That will never happen either. So, we will just keep putting the offenders and the bad cops in jail.

lol

head in the sand

I feel like most people on both sides of arguments are reasonable. it is seeing the extreme side you support that help people reach rational conclusions and stay more grounded. This is just my opinion.

so, when I saw that quote, I thought, this is ridiculous, if more people see this it might help them move more to the center and understand yes black lives matter, but so do all lives, equally. In the case of the Walter Scott shooting if there were any comments defending the police officer with antagonistic comments about Scott I think that would have helped people see that murder for what it was.

I'm not clear why posting that tweet is inflammatory, I never said anyone on here agrees with it, I just wanted to demonstrate how real people have applied a real mantra to a ridiculous level and I think the violence we're seeing supports that it's not just one person.

In comment 12448411 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

In comment 12448156 manh george said: Quote: 1) after the recent spate of police killings of unarmed men; and 2) An even more recent spate of executions of cops... you aren't worried that there might be something related going on, and want to look for ways to break the cycle? Mind you, this is no way justifies what is now going on with police killings, it just means that if we don't find a way to break the cycle, there will be more dead cops, and then more trigger-happy ones. Personally, that worries me, a lot. Finding a way to break the cycle is called "leadership." Has there been a "recent spate of killings of unarmed black men" or has the media drawn attention to a phenomenon that has been occurring with unfortunate frequency for decades? The fact that they were unarmed is only the beginning of the inquiry; there are bad shoots of armed men and "good" shoots of unarmed men. But I'm not convinced the problem is getting worse. Isn't the trend of what is euphemistically called an "officer-involved shooting" relatively stable despite population increases? And isn't the trend of officer fatalities on the job generally downward, with a few short-duration spikes in the opposite direction? If the numbers spike this year it might be attributable to these handful of execution-style killings of LEOs, but generally speaking the trends seem more optimistic.

That's pretty much the whole point to me. Nope, it isn't getting worse. It isn't getting all that much better, either. And that's THE problem. There is a spotlight because of availability of cameras that is pointing at inequalities in the system-particularly as it relates to law enforcement.

Earlier you somewhat dismissed the role that race plays in all of this by correctly pointing to socioeconomic status as the main driver for violent crime. Unfortunately that leaves out the role race plays in socioeconomic status.

The shootings that are being highlighted are just a symptom to a much larger problem that absolutely does have a basis in institutional racism.

In comment 12448411 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

Has there been a "recent spate of killings of unarmed black men" or has the media drawn attention to a phenomenon that has been occurring with unfortunate frequency for decades? The fact that they were unarmed is only the beginning of the inquiry; there are bad shoots of armed men and "good" shoots of unarmed men. But I'm not convinced the problem is getting worse. Isn't the trend of what is euphemistically called an "officer-involved shooting" relatively stable despite population increases? And isn't the trend of officer fatalities on the job generally downward, with a few short-duration spikes in the opposite direction? If the numbers spike this year it might be attributable to these handful of execution-style killings of LEOs, but generally speaking the trends seem more optimistic.

I strongly suspect that there has been no increase. The information revolution has been incredible for mankind, but national 24/7 cable news, internet news etc. has made all news seem local. A guy gets shot by a cop in Cleveland isnt news in NY 30 years ago, but is now. And it makes it seem like more killings are happening, but they're probably not. Moreover, the availability of cell phone video is for the first time putting two sides to the stories of cop shootings; if there is no video its pretty easy to make a bad shoot look like a good shoot if the investigators/ME arent inclined to give a cop a hard time.

This perception bias isnt just limited to the cop shooting issue. Think of how often you've heard phrases like "the world is more dangerous than ever". Is it really? A lot of evidence suggests that the world is the least violent that it has ever been. There is very little war. Murder rates have been dropping drastically for centuries (estimates of pre-1776 Europe/America were ~30-40 per 100k; 2014 NYC murder rate was 4 per 100k).

That said, there is no curve. Just because things are getting better does not invalidate a movement to say "enough of this shit".

In comment 12448595 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

I feel like most people on both sides of arguments are reasonable. it is seeing the extreme side you support that help people reach rational conclusions and stay more grounded. This is just my opinion. so, when I saw that quote, I thought, this is ridiculous, if more people see this it might help them move more to the center and understand yes black lives matter, but so do all lives, equally. In the case of the Walter Scott shooting if there were any comments defending the police officer with antagonistic comments about Scott I think that would have helped people see that murder for what it was. I'm not clear why posting that tweet is inflammatory, I never said anyone on here agrees with it, I just wanted to demonstrate how real people have applied a real mantra to a ridiculous level and I think the violence we're seeing supports that it's not just one person.

What's my extreme position again? Because I wont even attempt to get into the nonsense that was the rest of your post.

that cunt got shot and killed if it would be appropriate to say she deserved it because her neck fat layers creeped people out.

I don't follow you around reading any of your posts that are not addressed to me.

And to be honest I really don't care what you think.

In comment 12448657 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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that cunt got shot and killed if it would be appropriate to say she deserved it because her neck fat layers creeped people out.

I wouldn't be sad if someone did the experiment.

in the jury - I shot thinking that her neck blubber would stop the bullet cold. The experiment failed."

but people throw around words like "institutional racism" and "structural racism" as though a reader should just nod in agreement and end the inquiry. Illegitimacy rates and a variety of other statistics speaking to the high rate of broken homes in many of these communities are predominately social and cultural phenomenon. Incarceration rates are absolutely a factor, but they're at best a partial one. I don't underestimate the indignities of profiling or insensitivity or revenue-based policing or what have you, but it just looks like people searching for recognizable, ideologically congenial villains even though their conduct can't begin to explain the wider problems.

In comment 12448667 Dunedin81 said:

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but people throw around words like "institutional racism" and "structural racism" as though a reader should just nod in agreement and end the inquiry. Illegitimacy rates and a variety of other statistics speaking to the high rate of broken homes in many of these communities are predominately social and cultural phenomenon. Incarceration rates are absolutely a factor, but they're at best a partial one. I don't underestimate the indignities of profiling or insensitivity or revenue-based policing or what have you, but it just looks like people searching for recognizable, ideologically congenial villains even though their conduct can't begin to explain the wider problems.

Ok- did these social and cultural phenomena just spontaneously appear?

I get what you're saying I think. I also think we are pretty much in agreement that the problems low income and minority folks face aren't attributed to just "the man."

I'm not trying to excuse any behavior or attempting to pin it all on a villain.

I guess I just get tired of folks dismissing race and the impact of our recent history (within a generation) as not having an impact on black culture today.

Pretty much how I assume you feel when folks put all the blame at the feet of racism.

maybe the word "racism" just conjures up something different for me, namely a present-tense villain. I would describe it as the legacy of racism, and on that I would agree it probably deserves a fair share of blame.

In comment 12448661 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

I don't follow you around reading any of your posts that are not addressed to me. And to be honest I really don't care what you think.

So to be clear, when you said "it is seeing the extreme side you support that help people reach rational conclusions and stay more grounded" you were just talking out of your ass.

In comment 12448701 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

maybe the word "racism" just conjures up something different for me, namely a present-tense villain. I would describe it as the legacy of racism, and on that I would agree it probably deserves a fair share of blame.

Got it. And you're right- a lot of folks do mean a present-tense villain when they're talking about racism. IMO, they're being incredibly short sighted.

general "you" meaning people on either side of an issue, not the specific "you".

take a break would you. I think 99% of people understand how to read that. I feel like the only people who don't are the ones intentionally trying to pick a fight with someone. And you accuse me of trolling.

take a breath and walk away.

in the aftermath of shootings.

This is next step in the cycle I was referring to: weaker recruiting means less competent recruits from a smaller pool of applicants. And, that, combined with more nervous cops, most likely means more bad events.

Picture a nervous recruit who probably shouldn't have been hired in the first place who stops a car for a traffic violation, walking up to a car with an open driver window.

Btw, a next step in the cycle is a shortage beyond recruiting, as cops refuse to patrol by themselves. No more one-man cars. I know I wouldn't do it in this environment. You?
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 12448335 EricJ said:

Quote:

In comment 12448156 manh george said: Quote: 1) after the recent spate of police killings of unarmed men; and 2) An even more recent spate of executions of cops... you aren't worried that there might be something related going on, and want to look for ways to break the cycle? Mind you, this is no way justifies what is now going on with police killings, it just means that if we don't find a way to break the cycle, there will be more dead cops, and then more trigger-happy ones. Personally, that worries me, a lot. Finding a way to break the cycle is called "leadership." Right, we need to break the cycle. I agree. Lets start with leadership...our President who NEVER ... NOT ONCE has said that there is a shared responsibility here. NOT ONCE has he spoken to the minority groups who ARE also committing the crimes about their behavior. He has continued to foster the divide by speaking about how the police are the issue. He will (in the same sentence) say that he values the job that the police do.. "BUT". He is creating the environment where there is retaliation against the police. He has created this hate that is out there right now. Remember, he is by nature an activist. It is in his DNA. He his continuing to play the role as activist in his new job as POTUS. SO, if you think that a police chief is where leadership should begin, then you are wrong. It needs to begin at the top.

This is an absolute ans utter lie... Ans is constantly repeated as truth... It's another attempt at a gotcha by people who wouldn't like home regardless of what he does.

In comment 12448701 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

maybe the word "racism" just conjures up something different for me, namely a present-tense villain. I would describe it as the legacy of racism, and on that I would agree it probably deserves a fair share of blame.

You write this as if from the perspective of an observer. It totally devalues the actual ongoing historic and present tense actual racism that at least 45 million Americans experience on a daily basis.

Racism is not an academic thought experiment or a status eliminated through achievement. Its a constant and consistent devaluation of an individual based on color; some of it is overt and conscious like that idiot Nathan Ener. Most of it unconscious and subconscious slights and innuendoes and suppositions about a persons capabilities, background and most of all RIGHTs.

Racism is the very real the agglomeration of effects that are personal and professional, during all waking moments of individuals life that comes from other peoples biases about you. They maybe active in terms of policing or passive in terms of job and house hunting but they are real all the same.

Its not a false bogeyman or trope. Its an experience that never, ever ends because the majority culture believes it doesn't exist.

You truly need to go through the academy and get on a city force and work you way up the ranks.

You sound like someone who can make a difference.

What we need right now.

In comment 12449842 blakjedi said:

Quote:

In comment 12448701 Dunedin81 said: Quote: maybe the word "racism" just conjures up something different for me, namely a present-tense villain. I would describe it as the legacy of racism, and on that I would agree it probably deserves a fair share of blame. You write this as if from the perspective of an observer. It totally devalues the actual ongoing historic and present tense actual racism that at least 45 million Americans experience on a daily basis. Racism is not an academic thought experiment or a status eliminated through achievement. Its a constant and consistent devaluation of an individual based on color; some of it is overt and conscious like that idiot Nathan Ener. Most of it unconscious and subconscious slights and innuendoes and suppositions about a persons capabilities, background and most of all RIGHTs. Racism is the very real the agglomeration of effects that are personal and professional, during all waking moments of individuals life that comes from other peoples biases about you. They maybe active in terms of policing or passive in terms of job and house hunting but they are real all the same. Its not a false bogeyman or trope. Its an experience that never, ever ends because the majority culture believes it doesn't exist.

Perhaps it's an experience that never, ever ends because the leading lights of what purports to be "minority culture" insist on finding it everywhere. I deal with poor white and poor black people every day. There is virtually nothing different about them. Education, family background, delinquency, speech, priorities (stated or demonstrated). Through education and military I have middle class white and black friends and relatively affluent white and black friends. The abiding common threads among outcomes (succeeding, getting by, not getting by) are economic, not ethic. Racism exists, racism matters, but it has been my experience that the poor black kid has a lot more in common with the poor white kid than he does with the affluent black kid.

In comment 12449932 ctc in ftmyers said:

Quote:

You truly need to go through the academy and get on a city force and work you way up the ranks. You sound like someone who can make a difference. What we need right now.

Brother, I'm an old man... too old for that. But old enough to know that most Americans and most people are good hearted and not evil, biased or racist. I'm balanced in my views of the world and of people. I'm always willing to listen, evaluate and give people the benefit of the doubt.

That's about my only good quality

In comment 12448006 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

Monica Foy might be a nominee for this year's Darwin Award. Apparently, she posted this while having an outstanding arrest warrant for "assault causing bodily harm". It wasn't hard to follow the trail of breadcrumbs she left.


Link - ( New Window )

I have no doubt that prior to cell phone videos and e-mail records, SOME cops in SOME jurisdictions got away with an awful lot of racist behavior, and it was virtually never prosecuted. Blacks clenched their teeth and seethed, but there was nothing that could be done to prove what they saw, so it continued.

The handful of video-ed incidents, and the really racist e-mail cross-talk in some jurisdictions simply brought this behavior into the light. Are there more bad behavior and bad attitudes now? No, probably less, with all those videos around. But there is still a lot of underlying anger regarding historical behavior that was absolutely never prosecuted. And even now, with videos, the tendency for juries to accept the most convoluted explanations by cops still exists. And meanwhile, you still have some jurisdictions where any excuse to harass or demean minorities is considered OK, including overuse of stop and frisk and driving while black type tactics. Is it the majority? Of course not. It's a small minority, but it exists.

So, you get "Black Lives Matter," and then you get some fucktards who think that knocking off random cops is a reasonable response. That is not what "Black Lives Matter" is about. But as in all movements that grow up out of rage, some people respond irrationally.

This gets back to my main premise. The increased visibility of bad but unpunished behavior by a handful of cops and a handful of rogue police departments pushed all of this out into the open, kicking off a cycle that is yet to be ended. It needs to be ended. Until is does, you get more killings of cops, more nervous cops, more difficulty recruiting cops and a lot of other messes that are all related.

So is "Black Lives Matter" helping? Maybe a little. But they too, need to take part in breaking the cycle, and aggressively condemning cop killers, and so far I have seen little evidence that they are doing so. All they seem to be is pissed off. If you want to lead, then lead.

In comment 12450815 manh george said:

Quote:

So is "Black Lives Matter" helping? Maybe a little. But they too, need to take part in breaking the cycle, and aggressively condemning cop killers, and so far I have seen little evidence that they are doing so. All they seem to be is pissed off. If you want to lead, then lead.

The head of the Minneapolis Black Lives Matter was on CNN last night, either Anderson Cooper or Don Lemon (I forget which). He basically equivocated and would not outright denounce "pigs in a blanket, fry'em like bacon". As opposed to helping a little I think they're a net negative.

In comment 12448193 Pitt G-man Dan said:

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In comment 12447088 manh george said: Quote: in the slightest. I will suggest, however, that the attitude about the police in many black communities has been set to explode for years now. Ferguson isn't just about the single killing, for example Ferguson is about a town that made it's budget for years by hauling black asses into court. Quote: For example, in 88% of the cases in which the Ferguson police reported using force, it was against African-Americans. Also, between 2012 and 2014, black drivers were twice as likely as white drivers to be searched during traffic stops, but 26% less likely to be found in possession of contraband. There are problems, of course, nationwide, with misuse of the bail system, bullying people--especially minorities--into accepting guilty pleas to avoid pre-trial incarceration. Massive overuse of imprisonment. A failed war on drugs. There isn't any easy answer here. Hoodlums, thugs and street gangs are taking advantage of the resentment in community after community to justify a war on cops. There have to be solutions which get rid of old police attitudes about black communities, while expanding the use of community policing and reducing incarceration. These kinds of transitions are never easy, and there needs to be much stronger leadership within the black community to say to the thugs, "cut this shit out," and at the same time to engage police forces and legislatures to resolve the issues that led to the growing rage and resentment in the first place. I wish there were a way to create this kind of transition that doesn't involve giving people with hate in their heart excuses for murderous behavior. I don't know what it is. Link - ( New Window ) 5 posts in and this thread goes to shit

Just because you're confronted with an uncomfortable truth doesn't mean the thread has gone to shit.

It's as if people can't comprehend that different groups are treated vastly different by police officers and the justice system.

Why is it so hard to believe?

In comment 12450840 njm said:

Quote:

In comment 12450815 manh george said: Quote: So is "Black Lives Matter" helping? Maybe a little. But they too, need to take part in breaking the cycle, and aggressively condemning cop killers, and so far I have seen little evidence that they are doing so. All they seem to be is pissed off. If you want to lead, then lead. The head of the Minneapolis Black Lives Matter was on CNN last night, either Anderson Cooper or Don Lemon (I forget which). He basically equivocated and would not outright denounce "pigs in a blanket, fry'em like bacon". As opposed to helping a little I think they're a net negative.

You are obviously going to have idiots that spew anti-establishment rhetoric, sometimes violent. There are definitely whackos inside BLM.

However, the fact that it's brought this issue into a national conversation alone makes their affect a net positive, IMO. Although this depends on how much one believes that Black Lives Matter is influencing and inspiring violence against cops. I don't think it's inherently Black Lives Matter that is inspiring violence against the police. I think it's more just a combination of circumstances, social media, media coverage of events, and pent up anger over the behavior of law enforcement. To me, it's not all attached to a movement. If Black Lives Matter disappeared, I don't think the anger would dissipate.

Black Lives Matter does some stupid shit that really pisses me off. Interrupting the Bernie Sanders rally was idiotic and moronic. They don't realize they are hurting their own cause by doing this. And while I don't always agree with their message, particularly when they cross the line into violent rhetoric or pulling moves like the Sanders interruption, I do wholeheartedly believe that the core of their complaints has credence and credibility. I can't fathom how people try and debase the foundation of their anger.

Also, Fox News asking why Black Lives Matter isn't classified as a hate group was so fucking stupid and deserves a shitload of ridicule.

In comment 12450860 Sonic Youth said:

Quote:

In comment 12450840 njm said: Quote: In comment 12450815 manh george said: Quote: So is "Black Lives Matter" helping? Maybe a little. But they too, need to take part in breaking the cycle, and aggressively condemning cop killers, and so far I have seen little evidence that they are doing so. All they seem to be is pissed off. If you want to lead, then lead. The head of the Minneapolis Black Lives Matter was on CNN last night, either Anderson Cooper or Don Lemon (I forget which). He basically equivocated and would not outright denounce "pigs in a blanket, fry'em like bacon". As opposed to helping a little I think they're a net negative. You are obviously going to have idiots that spew anti-establishment rhetoric, sometimes violent. There are definitely whackos inside BLM. However, the fact that it's brought this issue into a national conversation alone makes their affect a net positive, IMO. Although this depends on how much one believes that Black Lives Matter is influencing and inspiring violence against cops. I don't think it's inherently Black Lives Matter that is inspiring violence against the police. I think it's more just a combination of circumstances, social media, media coverage of events, and pent up anger over the behavior of law enforcement. To me, it's not all attached to a movement. If Black Lives Matter disappeared, I don't think the anger would dissipate. Black Lives Matter does some stupid shit that really pisses me off. Interrupting the Bernie Sanders rally was idiotic and moronic. They don't realize they are hurting their own cause by doing this. And while I don't always agree with their message, particularly when they cross the line into violent rhetoric or pulling moves like the Sanders interruption, I do wholeheartedly believe that the core of their complaints has credence and credibility. I can't fathom how people try and debase the foundation of their anger. Also, Fox News asking why Black Lives Matter isn't classified as a hate group was so fucking stupid and deserves a shitload of ridicule.

Yet the left calling the tea party a terrorist group isn't condemned? Its free reign on right wing groups but not left. Got it.

I don't see anybody killing legal officials of any kind based on any sect of the tea party. Yet BLM chant "fry the piggies" and you are exonerating them by simply saying you truly believe in your heart of hearts? Give me a break.

In comment 12450860 Sonic Youth said:

Quote:

In comment 12450840 njm said: Quote: In comment 12450815 manh george said: Quote: So is "Black Lives Matter" helping? Maybe a little. But they too, need to take part in breaking the cycle, and aggressively condemning cop killers, and so far I have seen little evidence that they are doing so. All they seem to be is pissed off. If you want to lead, then lead. The head of the Minneapolis Black Lives Matter was on CNN last night, either Anderson Cooper or Don Lemon (I forget which). He basically equivocated and would not outright denounce "pigs in a blanket, fry'em like bacon". As opposed to helping a little I think they're a net negative. You are obviously going to have idiots that spew anti-establishment rhetoric, sometimes violent. There are definitely whackos inside BLM. However, the fact that it's brought this issue into a national conversation alone makes their affect a net positive, IMO.

This issue was a part of the national conversation WAY, WAY, WAY before Black Lives Matter arrived on the scene. And "pigs in a blanket, fry'em like bacon" one day after an officer was shot 15 times in cold blood is essentially equivalent to a police group chanting "N***** deserved it" after Michael Brown was shot. If the leadership of the organization can't come out and unequivocally condemn that means they are not a net positive. Denouncing as racist someone who says "all lives matter" is one of the most blatant example of reverse racism in recent years.

In comment 12450920 bradshaw44 said:

Quote:

In comment 12450860 Sonic Youth said: Quote: In comment 12450840 njm said: Quote: In comment 12450815 manh george said: Quote: So is "Black Lives Matter" helping? Maybe a little. But they too, need to take part in breaking the cycle, and aggressively condemning cop killers, and so far I have seen little evidence that they are doing so. All they seem to be is pissed off. If you want to lead, then lead. The head of the Minneapolis Black Lives Matter was on CNN last night, either Anderson Cooper or Don Lemon (I forget which). He basically equivocated and would not outright denounce "pigs in a blanket, fry'em like bacon". As opposed to helping a little I think they're a net negative. You are obviously going to have idiots that spew anti-establishment rhetoric, sometimes violent. There are definitely whackos inside BLM. However, the fact that it's brought this issue into a national conversation alone makes their affect a net positive, IMO. Although this depends on how much one believes that Black Lives Matter is influencing and inspiring violence against cops. I don't think it's inherently Black Lives Matter that is inspiring violence against the police. I think it's more just a combination of circumstances, social media, media coverage of events, and pent up anger over the behavior of law enforcement. To me, it's not all attached to a movement. If Black Lives Matter disappeared, I don't think the anger would dissipate. Black Lives Matter does some stupid shit that really pisses me off. Interrupting the Bernie Sanders rally was idiotic and moronic. They don't realize they are hurting their own cause by doing this. And while I don't always agree with their message, particularly when they cross the line into violent rhetoric or pulling moves like the Sanders interruption, I do wholeheartedly believe that the core of their complaints has credence and credibility. I can't fathom how people try and debase the foundation of their anger. Also, Fox News asking why Black Lives Matter isn't classified as a hate group was so fucking stupid and deserves a shitload of ridicule. Yet the left calling the tea party a terrorist group isn't condemned? Its free reign on right wing groups but not left. Got it. I don't see anybody killing legal officials of any kind based on any sect of the tea party. Yet BLM chant "fry the piggies" and you are exonerating them by simply saying you truly believe in your heart of hearts? Give me a break.

What's this tit for tat bullshit? If I say something that attacks the "right" (which I didn't, I only said Fox News made a dumbass comment) I need to counterbalance that with some attack on the left?

Who the fuck was even talking about the Tea Party? I'm just curious for what you expected. I have to shoehorn that I don't think the Tea Party is a terrorist group into a post that has nothing to do with the Tea Party to appease you?

My post wasn't even partisan. You made it partisan.

Also, if you think everyone in BLM is chanting "fry the piggies", you need to stop contorting reality to fit your own narrative. I already said there's obviously going to be a bunch of nutjobs in there, but as I said, the entire point isn't about EXONERATING or excusing Black Lives Matter (exonerating from what is also still perplexing, since apparently you think they're a reason that cops were shot, and I don't know if I agree with that). The point of the post is that the basis of what they are rallying for is a worthy cause. Equal treatment of minorities by the legal system and law enforcement IS a worthy cause.

Just for fun, can you explain to me again why I would need to mention the fucking Tea Party? Unbelievable how some people's minds work. "Oh no, he said something mean about fox, which is conservative, but didn't shit on a liberal outlet to counterbalance it! OUTAGE!"

Painfully partisan and childish.

In comment 12451011 njm said:

Quote:

In comment 12450860 Sonic Youth said: Quote: In comment 12450840 njm said: Quote: In comment 12450815 manh george said: Quote: So is "Black Lives Matter" helping? Maybe a little. But they too, need to take part in breaking the cycle, and aggressively condemning cop killers, and so far I have seen little evidence that they are doing so. All they seem to be is pissed off. If you want to lead, then lead. The head of the Minneapolis Black Lives Matter was on CNN last night, either Anderson Cooper or Don Lemon (I forget which). He basically equivocated and would not outright denounce "pigs in a blanket, fry'em like bacon". As opposed to helping a little I think they're a net negative. You are obviously going to have idiots that spew anti-establishment rhetoric, sometimes violent. There are definitely whackos inside BLM. However, the fact that it's brought this issue into a national conversation alone makes their affect a net positive, IMO. This issue was a part of the national conversation WAY, WAY, WAY before Black Lives Matter arrived on the scene. And "pigs in a blanket, fry'em like bacon" one day after an officer was shot 15 times in cold blood is essentially equivalent to a police group chanting "N***** deserved it" after Michael Brown was shot. If the leadership of the organization can't come out and unequivocally condemn that means they are not a net positive. Denouncing as racist someone who says "all lives matter" is one of the most blatant example of reverse racism in recent years.

Sorry, I forgot Black Lives Matter was a monolithic entity that chanted one thing in unison all the fucking time.

You're living under a rock if you think Black Lives Matter hasn't brought thees types of issues more into the forefront.

BTW, there have been protests that had that kind of vitriol towards Michael Brown. Maybe they didn't say "nigger", but the sentiment was the same.

I never denounced anyone who says "All Lives Matter" is racist, but let's be real here.. the people saying "All Lives Matter" as a retort to "Black Lives Matter" are clearly acting as an opponent to debase the foundation of their movement, which is injustices against blacks.

I'm not saying that the phrase "all lives matter" is inequity against blacks at all. What I meant is that inequity against blacks is part of the Black Lives Matter foundation.