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| An Illinois police officer was shot and killed in Lake County on Tuesday, a law enforcement source told CNN. A search is on for three suspects, authorities said. Law enforcement on foot and in helicopters are combing the area, said Lake County Sheriff's Sgt. Christopher Covelli. The shooting happened about 10 minutes before 8 a.m. local time, according to the sergeant. Canine units have also been dispatched, and residents have been asked to remain inside their homes and businesses, he said. "We asked residents to report any suspicious activity they happen to see, whether they think it's something minor or major and to keep an eye out for these three individuals," Covelli said. |
"Go bitch about Obama." Go bitch about Denali." ".....pathetic shitstain...."
Please, Dave, kindly go fuck yourself.
Nobody here is arguing that the police are above criticism. What people are arguing is that a thread marking the death of another police officer might not be the place to devolve into people's traditional bitches, gripes and complaints about the police.
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Here is a radical idea for change that applies to everyone... IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE ARRESTED THEN STOP BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW!!
Easy for someone who is not likely to get profiled to say stupid shit like this.
Bingo David. I couldn't believe that sentence when I read it. Are we now to believe that everyone who is arrested should be presumed guilty?
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I am talking about how pockets of bad behavior lead to attitudes. Do you really think that the out-of-control cops in Cleveland and Albuquerque were a result of having a high proportion of minorities? Really? Or that statistics that showed a VAST overstopping of blacks on the Interstate in New Jersey were made up?
See if you can follow this. I am saying that there are:
--clearly pockets of racism;
--clearly overuse of prisons on the poor, which happens to include a disproportionate number of minorities;
--An out-of-control incompetent bail and plea-bargaining system;
--Vastly too much use of prisons to solve our problems.
And, that the fact that these patterns exist fuel attitudes in minority communities, and provide the worst of them with excuses for thuggish behavior.
In order to solve the attitude problems that lead to a vast increase in thuggish behavior, we need to break the cycle. Obviously, that requires believing that there is something to change, which in your case would require you to do a little homework. I am not optimistic.
Really? People shoot and kill their peers because of bad cops? That's the most obtuse sort of logic.
I'm not following where you get that from Dunedin
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but I do think there are significant areas they need to address. Of course, you're too stubborn to agree on that part. If you have a badge, you're held to a higher standard than the run of the mill citizen. That's not a tough concept to understand, and neither is the concept that police are not above criticism.
Nobody here is arguing that the police are above criticism. What people are arguing is that a thread marking the death of another police officer might not be the place to devolve into people's traditional bitches, gripes and complaints about the police.
I don't think MG was bitching about the police. I think he was discussing the atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur.
Gotcha. I posted that before I read further in the thread
I'm inclined to agree with this. Furthermore, why such a wide gap in wealth between whites and blacks, why are their less 2 parent families, less homeowners? I don't think blacks ever got a fair shake. They have seen wins along the way, but not without resistance, and not without having to be vocal about it. The main function of institutionalized racism is designed to dissuade socio-economic mobility.
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In comment 12447480 David in LA said:
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but I do think there are significant areas they need to address. Of course, you're too stubborn to agree on that part. If you have a badge, you're held to a higher standard than the run of the mill citizen. That's not a tough concept to understand, and neither is the concept that police are not above criticism.
Nobody here is arguing that the police are above criticism. What people are arguing is that a thread marking the death of another police officer might not be the place to devolve into people's traditional bitches, gripes and complaints about the police.
I don't think MG was bitching about the police. I think he was discussing the atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur.
This might come across as more Facebook meme than anything else, but when that piece of shit gunned down innocent people in a church the narrative became his motives. When another piece of shit gunned down two reporters while spouting racist nonsense, it became a gun/mental health issue. And when a man executed a police officer in Houston, presumably for reasons related to the race of both and the occupation of one, it was a mental health issue. Maybe the "atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur" is an atmosphere in which hyperbole about the police is accepted uncritically. Most people don't take this as encouragement to commit violence, but on the fringes of sanity and criminality some do.
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and that crime is at the root of it all? Or maybe poverty is at the root of it all (or some other socioeconomic thing like 2-parent families or welfare or whatever). If there was less urban crime, then wouldn't there be less profiling and wouldn't there also be fewer rash decision-making or skitteriness or whatever by police?
I'm inclined to agree with this. Furthermore, why such a wide gap in wealth between whites and blacks, why are their less 2 parent families, less homeowners? I don't think blacks ever got a fair shake. They have seen wins along the way, but not without resistance, and not without having to be vocal about it. The main function of institutionalized racism is designed to dissuade socio-economic mobility.
But again, that's more shibboleth than reality. To deny the existence of any racism is to bury one's head in the sand, but social and economic stability has a lot more to do with criminality or any of the unfortunate social pathologies than does skin color.
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and that crime is at the root of it all? Or maybe poverty is at the root of it all (or some other socioeconomic thing like 2-parent families or welfare or whatever). If there was less urban crime, then wouldn't there be less profiling and wouldn't there also be fewer rash decision-making or skitteriness or whatever by police?
I'm inclined to agree with this. Furthermore, why such a wide gap in wealth between whites and blacks, why are their less 2 parent families, less homeowners? I don't think blacks ever got a fair shake. They have seen wins along the way, but not without resistance, and not without having to be vocal about it. The main function of institutionalized racism is designed to dissuade socio-economic mobility.
David, the issues you talk about certainly have a racial component but they are much more broadly based than just race. It gets back to the wealth, privilege, education, opportunities and cronyism at the higher economic levels and the declining mobility of the middle and lower classes. But I suppose that's a discussion for another thread
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how we select, evaluate, and train police officers. It really pisses me off to see off the cuff comments like this one...
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Here is a radical idea for change that applies to everyone... IF YOU DONT WANT TO BE ARRESTED THEN STOP BREAKING THE FUCKING LAW!!
Easy for someone who is not likely to get profiled to say stupid shit like this.
Bingo David. I couldn't believe that sentence when I read it. Are we now to believe that everyone who is arrested should be presumed guilty?
Not everyone who is profiled is arrested.
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In comment 12447528 Bill L said:
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and that crime is at the root of it all? Or maybe poverty is at the root of it all (or some other socioeconomic thing like 2-parent families or welfare or whatever). If there was less urban crime, then wouldn't there be less profiling and wouldn't there also be fewer rash decision-making or skitteriness or whatever by police?
I'm inclined to agree with this. Furthermore, why such a wide gap in wealth between whites and blacks, why are their less 2 parent families, less homeowners? I don't think blacks ever got a fair shake. They have seen wins along the way, but not without resistance, and not without having to be vocal about it. The main function of institutionalized racism is designed to dissuade socio-economic mobility.
But again, that's more shibboleth than reality. To deny the existence of any racism is to bury one's head in the sand, but social and economic stability has a lot more to do with criminality or any of the unfortunate social pathologies than does skin color.
Moynahan wrote that 50 years ago and is still hated for it, even thought there's a lot of truth to it.
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In comment 12447501 Dunedin81 said:
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In comment 12447480 David in LA said:
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but I do think there are significant areas they need to address. Of course, you're too stubborn to agree on that part. If you have a badge, you're held to a higher standard than the run of the mill citizen. That's not a tough concept to understand, and neither is the concept that police are not above criticism.
Nobody here is arguing that the police are above criticism. What people are arguing is that a thread marking the death of another police officer might not be the place to devolve into people's traditional bitches, gripes and complaints about the police.
I don't think MG was bitching about the police. I think he was discussing the atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur.
[quote] Most people don't take this as encouragement to commit violence, but on the fringes of sanity and criminality some do.
Ain't it the truth!
Then look at what some minorities are seeing. Seemingly unjustified deaths at the hands of police. A feeling of helplessness. And Stop and Frisk (aka you dont get 4th amendment rights if you're a young black man). If the NYPD was stopping white kids on the Upper East Side based on neighborhood + "furtive movement", that shit would have been shut down in 72 hours.
Ain't it the truth!
As is the section of his statement that you didn't include.
Then look at what some minorities are seeing. Seemingly unjustified deaths at the hands of police. A feeling of helplessness. And Stop and Frisk (aka you dont get 4th amendment rights if you're a young black man). If the NYPD was stopping white kids on the Upper East Side based on neighborhood + "furtive movement", that shit would have been shut down in 72 hours.
I don't disagree with what you're saying, but people act as though it's as intuitive as tossing around a few slogans about "Community policing" and the like. When a young man is gunned down at a party or in public and there are zero witnesses, you've got a problem. How is that man any less dead than Michael Brown or Freddie Gray? You can prosecute bad cops, you can train and retrain, you can revamp your SOPs, but like it or not you're going to stop only a small minority of deaths of African American men, and it may be a net uptick in deaths if more aggressive policing would have prevented some of it.
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In comment 12447501 Dunedin81 said:
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In comment 12447480 David in LA said:
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but I do think there are significant areas they need to address. Of course, you're too stubborn to agree on that part. If you have a badge, you're held to a higher standard than the run of the mill citizen. That's not a tough concept to understand, and neither is the concept that police are not above criticism.
Nobody here is arguing that the police are above criticism. What people are arguing is that a thread marking the death of another police officer might not be the place to devolve into people's traditional bitches, gripes and complaints about the police.
I don't think MG was bitching about the police. I think he was discussing the atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur.
This might come across as more Facebook meme than anything else, but when that piece of shit gunned down innocent people in a church the narrative became his motives. When another piece of shit gunned down two reporters while spouting racist nonsense, it became a gun/mental health issue. And when a man executed a police officer in Houston, presumably for reasons related to the race of both and the occupation of one, it was a mental health issue. Maybe the "atmosphere that seems ripe for things like this to occur" is an atmosphere in which hyperbole about the police is accepted uncritically. Most people don't take this as encouragement to commit violence, but on the fringes of sanity and criminality some do.
I do however think about Malcolm X's "chickens coming home to roost" statement.
The police are being called out to behave as they ought to.
And then we have people randomly killing cops in the name of those killed. Exhibiting homicidal behavior can never be excused.
We have a shit of a mess and I tend to lean on the side of cops needing to be held accountable always. And then if a cop-killing happens as retribution, justice needs to be handed out accordingly. It all just sucks.
One asshole, unfit cop out of 100 ruins the reputation of the whole force, and ruins some police-community relations. And the ratio is a lot more than 1:100. And cops and their unions are very good at making sure that it is hard to discipline a cop. Reports dont get filed. The Blue Wall. Etc.
Good points to all that perservered.
One asshole, unfit cop out of 100 ruins the reputation of the whole force, and ruins some police-community relations. And the ratio is a lot more than 1:100. And cops and their unions are very good at making sure that it is hard to discipline a cop. Reports dont get filed. The Blue Wall. Etc.
There are certainly issues with discipline and slaps on the wrist for serious misconduct (some of them ironically the consequence of collective bargaining), but to compare where we are now to where we were twenty or thirty years ago is night and day.
Now, does that justify violence towards police? Absolutely not. Can you paint all cops with this broad brush? Absolutely not.
Now, does that justify violence towards police? Absolutely not. Can you paint all cops with this broad brush? Absolutely not.
But it isn't irrelevant. The mechanisms that will reduce police use of force, particularly lethal force, will involve less aggressive policing, less stop and frisk, less stops that are lawful but essentially pretextual. And the result of this in the short term, perhaps in the long term too, is likely to be more violence. Now that isn't to say that we shouldn't make these changes, but understand that there are tradeoffs, and an increase in violent crime is likely to disproportionately impact poor and minority victims.
But it isn't irrelevant. The mechanisms that will reduce police use of force, particularly lethal force, will involve less aggressive policing, less stop and frisk, less stops that are lawful but essentially pretextual. And the result of this in the short term, perhaps in the long term too, is likely to be more violence. Now that isn't to say that we shouldn't make these changes, but understand that there are tradeoffs, and an increase in violent crime is likely to disproportionately impact poor and minority victims.
I dont see how a comparison of the way things were to how they are is relevant.
The other issue is more fair. If we're willing to do things that are unconstitutional like stop and frisk -- and I dont even think it was arguably constitutional as the NYPD deployed it -- I could come up with lots of ways to protect ordinary poor minorities. I could round up every black male 16-30 and incarcerate him regardless of whether he's done anything wrong. The statistics say it would reduce street crime. It would also turn every black person against the police though, and could even cause more violent crime over time. We could also reduce murders by banning private ownership of firearms, and impose very hard penalties for violations (say mandatory life sentence, $250k fine, and asset forfeiture -- if we find a gun in a home, we take the home regardless of who owns it).
But put all that aside. What about just grossly excessive use of force and gross hostility by police towards young minorities (verbal abuse). My belief is that it happens all the time; you may disagree. Im unaware of any evidence that "cracking skulls" reduces crime.
I don't approve of police "cracking skulls" either and I have little doubt that it still happens (though I doubt it happens as much as you think it does). Certainly rough talk happens as well; no matter how difficult their jobs or how shittily they are treated we absolutely should expect more from police officers.
But these issues are impossible to divorce from the wider issues in these neighborhoods, and even the attempts to argue that over time violence will subside as relationships between the community and police improve seem fanciful. That MAY happen, but it is not going to be a quick improvement and the likelihood is that things will get worse before they get better.
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RIP to those cops. there's a lot i don't agree with regarding police as an institution but regardless, on a person-to-person level i feel nothing but empathy for these police officers.
On Brietbart, a call for greater use of police cams is attacked as "blaming the victim."
And yet, some studies have indicated pretty strongly that increased use of police cams reduces BOTH incidents of aggressive policing, and false accusations of aggressive policing. If accurate, this would help with what I have talking about throughout this thread, which is finding ways to break the cycle of:
--overly aggressive policing--where it exists to
--contempt for police even where it doesn't exist to
--killings of police by thugs who think they have an excuse, to
--highly edgy police who shoot more frequently out of genuine fear for their lives in this highly charged atmosphere.
It could very well be that police cams are one tool in breaking that cycle. But not in the Breitbart world.
We need leadership consensus, and we need plans, now more than ever, or poor neighborhoods will be in greater danger, and cops will be as well. Rage on both extremes is no solution at all.
Moronic comments come from all sides, but they're not necessarily indicative of movements or political parties as a whole. Whatever horseshit you were attempting to accomplish is no more intelligent than the idiot whose comments you posted.
not sure why you feel offended that I shared it or guilty about anything, but that's on you.
On Brietbart, a call for greater use of police cams is attacked as "blaming the victim."
And yet, some studies have indicated pretty strongly that increased use of police cams reduces BOTH incidents of aggressive policing, and false accusations of aggressive policing. If accurate, this would help with what I have talking about throughout this thread, which is finding ways to break the cycle of:
--overly aggressive policing--where it exists to
--contempt for police even where it doesn't exist to
--killings of police by thugs who think they have an excuse, to
--highly edgy police who shoot more frequently out of genuine fear for their lives in this highly charged atmosphere.
It could very well be that police cams are one tool in breaking that cycle. But not in the Breitbart world.
We need leadership consensus, and we need plans, now more than ever, or poor neighborhoods will be in greater danger, and cops will be as well. Rage on both extremes is no solution at all.
I'm surprised Breitbart had time enough to cover this in between fawning adulation of all things Trump.
Body cameras are an important tool, but we do need to understand some of their implications. When it comes to prosecution they're a huge manpower commitment (think about the implications for discovery in even misdemeanor cases). Are states and localities going to fund these positions? And are we the people actually comfortable being recorded in every interaction with the police? This includes our worst moments, which would conceivably be FOIA-able. Again, on the balance I think they should win. But they're an imperfect solution.
You post something that adds no value whatsoever to the discussion, whose sole purpose is to denigrate a movement you don't care for, then say "What did I do?" when I called you out on it. But, hey, I guess that's on me for falling for an idiot troll's post.
I'm out, knew i should have stayed off this thread.
It was from the article headline - ( New Window )