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So Spags was in the lab this week....

Joey in VA : 9/3/2015 11:45 pm
I'm just getting to halftime, (work took me out for live action but I am watching the replay) and I noticed something that I had to back and rewatch a few times. As he did in his first go round, Spags will use fronts you don't typically see if the pass rush is not working well with the base 4-3 and tonight was one of those nights. I noticed 21 down in the box a LOT which was my first clue, then I noticed George Selvie playing the inside shoulder of the RT with combinations of Bromley, Ellis, Kuhn, Hamilton beside him playing what amounted to a shaded 3-4 with the NT off set on the guard side instead of head up over the center.

Collins was usually lined up on the right and over DaMontre Moore in a support role. Moore was playing 3-4 OLB, or technically an elephant role sort of in stand up and 3 pt stance situations. That little wrinkle enabled a lot of gaps to open up for some good penetration (heh, penetration) inside and it's not brute force. One one play in particular, Selvie was at RDE (or RDT really) and Bromley and I think Kuhn stunted left at the snap, which took the guard with them and Selvie was in the B gap before you could say "Markus Kuhn stinks".

As the half wears on, I see more of it, with Selvie at LDE shaded inside again. The OL is forced to slide protection that way and it's opening up Moore and Collins on the backside to make plays against the run and get some heat on the QB. I'll continue watching and add to this, but with Selvie's size and no real NT types, we're kind of tossing out a 4-3/3-4 hybrid and using Collins as a LB/S hybrid on downs where we blitz or are clearly expecting run. Selvie is playing extremely well, holding the POA and getting good penetration, this may have some potential. It won't solve our back end issues but the wrinkles up front (that sounds gross I know) seem to be giving the dynamic players we have in Moore and Collins some room to operate and get some heat on the QB. Very interesting.
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And last one  
blueblood : 9/4/2015 8:33 am : link
also a good read
Last Read on Ravens defense - ( New Window )
Good stuff.  
arcarsenal : 9/4/2015 8:33 am : link
Hoping he can generate some more heat this way because it doesn't look like we'll get much by winning 1 on 1's.
RE: Going to post this again  
section125 : 9/4/2015 8:38 am : link
In comment 12452872 blueblood said:
Quote:
because I believe it is a good read.. Ravens defensive scheme - ( New Window )


thanks BB - it is a good read.
RE: Is it possible that the reason  
Victor in CT : 9/4/2015 8:44 am : link
In comment 12452842 section125 said:
Quote:
Kuhn stays is because they are going to roll out a variant of the 3-4 defense taking advantage of the speed of Moore and Odi outside? So Ellis and Kuhn are the pseudo NTs with Bromley, Hankins, Selvie and Jenkins as DEs.

Selvie - Hankins - Jenkins
(Bromley) (Kuhn) (Bromley)
(Odi)Moore - ???? - Beason/McClain - Thomas(Odi)

Prince - Collins Cooper/Brown - DRC

Maybe Joey or B can blow this up or refine it?


No it's because they are going to use B in ALB's idea about having him drop to Safety because he is so used to being pushed back there :-)
Sigh - can we get back to talking about why Nassib should  
PatersonPlank : 9/4/2015 8:57 am : link
replace Eli please?
I don't want to live in the moment  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/4/2015 8:59 am : link
but is it reasonable to say that Fewell didn't do anything inventive like this to try to scheme for pass rush?
Thanks, Joey...  
Racer : 9/4/2015 9:02 am : link
...for taking the time to share the wealth. I'ts really cool when you're not out on the ledge.
RE: RE: Is it possible that the reason  
section125 : 9/4/2015 9:42 am : link
In comment 12452902 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 12452842 section125 said:


Quote:


Kuhn stays is because they are going to roll out a variant of the 3-4 defense taking advantage of the speed of Moore and Odi outside? So Ellis and Kuhn are the pseudo NTs with Bromley, Hankins, Selvie and Jenkins as DEs.

Selvie - Hankins - Jenkins
(Bromley) (Kuhn) (Bromley)
(Odi)Moore - ???? - Beason/McClain - Thomas(Odi)

Prince - Collins Cooper/Brown - DRC

Maybe Joey or B can blow this up or refine it?



No it's because they are going to use B in ALB's idea about having him drop to Safety because he is so used to being pushed back there :-)


He does have quick feet.
Great post Joey!  
Ben in Tampa : 9/4/2015 9:48 am : link
thanks
With Fewell,  
Doomster : 9/4/2015 9:52 am : link
there was no guess work for the opposing OL......they saw the same alignment play after play, which caused no confusion to their blocking schemes...
wow....creativity by a D-Coordinator  
Andy in Boston : 9/4/2015 10:15 am : link
we're not used to that!!!
Thanks Joey...  
Capt. Don : 9/4/2015 10:18 am : link
enjoyed that very much.
Fewell designed his scheme back to front  
JonC : 9/4/2015 10:21 am : link
meaning from the secondary forward. His tendency was to be very vanilla up front expecting DL to win their one-on-one battles, and to protect weakness at the second level (LBs).

Good stuff, Joey. I noticed Collins was up in the box often, and he was having fun wreaking some havoc, that's his game, and it should be contagious.

Frankly, the game was a scrimmage and I wasn't paying attention, how did the DL look?
JonC  
DavidinBMNY : 9/4/2015 10:25 am : link
Good post as well.
That D would get  
Carl in CT : 9/4/2015 10:27 am : link
Killed in the flats with Moore and or Hertz trying to cover the RB's out other backfield.
RE: Fewell designed his scheme back to front  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/4/2015 10:30 am : link
In comment 12453137 JonC said:

Frankly, the game was a scrimmage and I wasn't paying attention, how did the DL look? [/quote]

Selvie had two sacks, Moore with an Osi-esque strip sacks and a few pressures that helped feed some sacks. Ellis has a pressure up the middle.

Fun, but this was against second and third stringers.
Thank you, Joey  
MadPlaid : 9/4/2015 10:33 am : link
Excellent read. This was valuable information. Really appreciate you sharing your informed opinion
Thanks, Joey  
clatterbuck : 9/4/2015 10:35 am : link
Interesting, analytical, informed... wait, where am I?
thanks, Joey  
ColHowPepper : 9/4/2015 10:49 am : link
.
Thanks Joey  
mrvax : 9/4/2015 10:52 am : link
It's good to finally hear some excellent news about our team.
thanks joey  
micky : 9/4/2015 10:53 am : link
was this just experimenting in a pre season game or will this likely carry over to possible formation in reg season?
Moore is a tool  
JonC : 9/4/2015 11:08 am : link
He's more likely to cost the team a game.
We supposedly had better players last year in the front four...  
Go Terps : 9/4/2015 11:11 am : link
and the defense blew. I'm ready for a change, and to consider the idea that maybe players we thought were great weren't as good as we thought (JPP).

I'm excited about this defense. If it's middle of the pack that will be an improvement over every defense we've had since 2008. It's not a high bar that needs to be achieved.
Moore  
Go Terps : 9/4/2015 11:13 am : link
I would trade him immediately for anything we can get. If not, cut him. He can't be trusted.
RE: Moore  
Mr. Bungle : 9/4/2015 11:14 am : link
In comment 12453315 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I would trade him immediately for anything we can get. If not, cut him. He can't be trusted.

And when he finally does make a play, the ecstatic celebrating is something I can really do without.
as I'd posted last week  
JonC : 9/4/2015 11:16 am : link
the defense's most promising play versus the Jets always involved Odi, Collins, Prince, and Kennard ... and often Unga.

Let them play and grow!
Thanks Joey!  
lawguy9801 : 9/4/2015 12:13 pm : link
This is phenomenal. As Terps said above, even if we're just a middle of the pack D, it would be a cosmic improvement over the Fewell days.
RE: thanks joey  
Joey in VA : 9/4/2015 12:18 pm : link
In comment 12453226 micky said:
Quote:
was this just experimenting in a pre season game or will this likely carry over to possible formation in reg season?
Micky - When Spags first came here, I was at camp and posted about some of the things he was tinkering with up front and he definitely used them so I have to think he's testing various fronts to see what and who works best. It will vary by opponent obviously but I think this will be something we'll see a decent amount of.
go terps i think it'll be the opposite  
area junc : 9/4/2015 12:21 pm : link
players we didnt think were good will turn out to be better than they looked under Fewell

i'm of the belief we were gonna get a DPOY-type year from JPP under spags
RE: go terps i think it'll be the opposite  
Go Terps : 9/4/2015 12:24 pm : link
In comment 12453600 area junc said:
Quote:
players we didnt think were good will turn out to be better than they looked under Fewell

i'm of the belief we were gonna get a DPOY-type year from JPP under spags


JPP is a perfect player for Spags.

But it takes two to tango. JPP wasn't coming into this season focused our likely in shape even before he blew his hand up.
RE: chris in the year following Bounty Gate  
speedywheels : 9/4/2015 12:27 pm : link
In comment 12452816 area junc said:
Quote:
sanctions? who cares? the league made sure the Saints were going to suck that year. that is the ONLY YEAR he's been a DC since he left.

Joey has pointed out the biggest change since he left: his 34 looks. accurately compared to Belichick but of course picked up in BAL and how they manufacture pressure, use Terrell Suggs.

speaking of herzlich - he looks like a different guy in this scheme. he played a strong game and looks like a physical force


Pay no attention to radar - he's just being a fucking moron, as usual...
RE: 3-4 single gap  
Joey in VA : 9/4/2015 12:32 pm : link
In comment 12452834 SwirlingEddie said:
Quote:
So something like this, as opposed to the 2-gap method we mostly think of with 3-4?

I believe so. The basis of what Spags does came from former Eagles DC Jim Johnson who made do when he lacked talent by utilizing what TC loves to call the "fire zone" schemes. Blitzes, dogs, fire zones, zone blitz, whatever you want to call it, the idea is to penetrate into gaps and have your LBs and DBs get into those gaps or "fire zones" quickly. One of things Kawika Mitchell was outstanding at was reading when and where they opened and getting home to disrupt passers or plug a running gap.

Guys like Herzlich and Kennard who are heady players can make up for a lack of great burst with skills like that. It's not a cure all, but it will give teams fits to prepare for. What you are doing here is basically making a team prepare for anything and making them guess right to run a play well. The easiest way to think about it honestly is to harken back to Tecmo Bowl. You pick to defend run or pass and if you guess right its game over for the offense and if you guess wrong it's game over for you. If you guess what play it will be, i.e, a run or a pass and defend as such you have a chance to succeed if you have better players or someone makes a play.

What it boils down to is, expect big plays against us, but expect big plays from the defense too. Whereas Fewell was playing the Tampa 2 way of keeping everything in front of you being content to let teams march down the field, Spags prefers to attack the offense and force them to make a play.

What I saw last night out of our defenders is something I haven't seen in two years...excitement and effort and it was preseason. One of the biggest untold or unknown things about defense, is that when you sit in the film room and your coach shows you something and tells you how to beat it...then it appears in a game and you know what to do, you get excited when you see the alignment and the play unfolds and you've seen it before. It's a feeling that gives you confidence in your coach, yourself and your teammates and it can build into something special. Confidence comes from preparation, I have always believed that and always will. Defense is a mentality more than anything and having an attacking mentality where you want to wreck the offense's plans makes it way more fun to play. I don't expect it to get instantly and if things start poorly we could tank but I really think Spags is a guy who can get people excited about playing defense with things like this.
Fantastic post Joey!  
David in LA : 9/4/2015 12:37 pm : link
Keep bringing us more great stuff! As much shit as Spags gets for his previous stings after NYG, I'm very excited to see what he can do. I know the talent pool is limited, but am very excited to see the young guys step up on D. If we come away from this season confident that OO and Collins are future building blocks, we are heading in the right direction.
RE: RE: go terps i think it'll be the opposite  
David in LA : 9/4/2015 12:39 pm : link
In comment 12453609 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 12453600 area junc said:


Quote:


players we didnt think were good will turn out to be better than they looked under Fewell

i'm of the belief we were gonna get a DPOY-type year from JPP under spags



JPP is a perfect player for Spags.

But it takes two to tango. JPP wasn't coming into this season focused our likely in shape even before he blew his hand up.


You're pulling this out of your ass. YOu're a great poster, but all reports prior to July 4th was that JPP was in great shape.
David  
Go Terps : 9/4/2015 1:19 pm : link
And he would have been in great shape after missing all of training camp?

He'd be a hamstring injury waiting to happen, at best.
i won't expand much on what Joey posted  
B in ALB : 9/4/2015 1:53 pm : link
because he's totally on point. The Giants showed last night that they're going to play gap football with their front seven + the box safety. What you saw from pretty much every DLman last night was an effort to maintain gap responsibility, hold the edges (at times it was the LB) and play outside in allowing the LB'ers and Collins to play aggressive football.

The one thing I didn't see (admittedly i didn't watch the entire game b/c of college ball last night) enough of were stunts, twists, delays and drops. Now I say this with the caveat that that could fly in the face of gap discipline to a point - but based on down and distance and situation I'd like to see more of these techniques integrated into the line play.

I noticed Kuhn playing outside shade on the C during the first preseason game slanted in the A Gap but it was highly ineffective. I'm not sure if the LB'er scheme was to play base but that's what it seemed. Last night was definitely different and you had to notice far more aggressiveness from the LB'ers and S in the box.

It seems that the Giants relative lack of stoutness (apparently that's a word) from their 1-3 technique guys lends itself to supporting this type of hybrid outside the traditional base 4-3. It's really a 5-2 look at the snap with the box safety and it allows you to come out of it to remain multiple. I like it a lot.

Now all that said, you're looking at a counter with play action, screens, and teams that have a good pass-catching TE - plus teams with athletic OLines that will focus on getting out in space and using the field. It'll be interesting to see the gameplanning from opposing offenses.

Great post Joey.
RE: RE: RE: go terps i think it'll be the opposite  
speedywheels : 9/4/2015 2:00 pm : link
In comment 12453653 David in LA said:
Quote:
In comment 12453609 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 12453600 area junc said:


Quote:


players we didnt think were good will turn out to be better than they looked under Fewell

i'm of the belief we were gonna get a DPOY-type year from JPP under spags



JPP is a perfect player for Spags.

But it takes two to tango. JPP wasn't coming into this season focused our likely in shape even before he blew his hand up.



You're pulling this out of your ass. YOu're a great poster, but all reports prior to July 4th was that JPP was in great shape.


Great shape doesn't mean football shape...
RE: i won't expand much on what Joey posted  
Joey in VA : 9/4/2015 2:09 pm : link
In comment 12453866 B in ALB said:
Quote:
because he's totally on point. The Giants showed last night that they're going to play gap football with their front seven + the box safety. What you saw from pretty much every DLman last night was an effort to maintain gap responsibility, hold the edges (at times it was the LB) and play outside in allowing the LB'ers and Collins to play aggressive football.

The one thing I didn't see (admittedly i didn't watch the entire game b/c of college ball last night) enough of were stunts, twists, delays and drops. Now I say this with the caveat that that could fly in the face of gap discipline to a point - but based on down and distance and situation I'd like to see more of these techniques integrated into the line play.

I noticed Kuhn playing outside shade on the C during the first preseason game slanted in the A Gap but it was highly ineffective. I'm not sure if the LB'er scheme was to play base but that's what it seemed. Last night was definitely different and you had to notice far more aggressiveness from the LB'ers and S in the box.

It seems that the Giants relative lack of stoutness (apparently that's a word) from their 1-3 technique guys lends itself to supporting this type of hybrid outside the traditional base 4-3. It's really a 5-2 look at the snap with the box safety and it allows you to come out of it to remain multiple. I like it a lot.

Now all that said, you're looking at a counter with play action, screens, and teams that have a good pass-catching TE - plus teams with athletic OLines that will focus on getting out in space and using the field. It'll be interesting to see the gameplanning from opposing offenses.

Great post Joey.
Thank you sir. Spags definitely used the old 5-2 Oklahoma in his last stint here, it appears he is again which I'm all for. It's better than using a bear front and letting yourself get torched on the back end if you guess wrong. The good news is that with Collins he has a S who can fill and take on the BOSS plays that a 3-4 or Base 50 will ultimately see.
Collins  
gidiefor : Mod : 9/4/2015 2:13 pm : link
seemed to be laying the Wood last night!
It sure looked like the old 5-2 Oklahoma  
JonC : 9/4/2015 2:18 pm : link
I played SS (rover) in the same scheme.
I saw a 4-3 Over  
B in ALB : 9/4/2015 2:22 pm : link
multiple looks - and it gives the S some flexibility in coverage if the TE stays in and based on scheme. The Giants DBs have to do a great job of reading the QB in this defense in order to determine their responsibilities.

Joey - do you think the Giants LBs will have too much guesswork on unclear down and distance situations that may open up PA? Particularly the SAM?
Great  
AcidTest : 9/4/2015 2:35 pm : link
stuff. Thanks. Well done.
RE: I saw a 4-3 Over  
Joey in VA : 9/4/2015 2:47 pm : link
In comment 12453952 B in ALB said:
Quote:
multiple looks - and it gives the S some flexibility in coverage if the TE stays in and based on scheme. The Giants DBs have to do a great job of reading the QB in this defense in order to determine their responsibilities.

Joey - do you think the Giants LBs will have too much guesswork on unclear down and distance situations that may open up PA? Particularly the SAM?
Oh yeah, any front that uses gap penetration to get guys in space to make plays will do that. That's one of the reasons we got blown up so early in 2011, it was just too easy to fool the LBs and DBs because they weren't on the same page yet. Part of that though as you well know, is in game adjustments by the players..the old.."when you see 84 go in motion, just go, I got you covered"...rotating into vacated areas where blitzers just were is critical and your FS had better sit sit sit until the last possible moment until he makes a break to one side. A patient FS in that scheme is HUGELY important.
A lot of the talk  
B in ALB : 9/4/2015 2:59 pm : link
has been about the pass rush and its personnel - and rightfully so. But Kennard and Collins are probably just as, if not more important in this scheme. Those two will make mistakes but they'll make big plays too.

I'm interested to see this D against big sets and 3/4 wides.
Speed worries me  
Joey in VA : 9/4/2015 4:00 pm : link
Specifically how fast the Eagles ground game is and how liberally they run the ball. That's a scheme that you CANNOT sit back and wait for, it has to be attacked and broken up. Fewell played it like a zone scheme where you patiently string plays out wide and rely on LBs and DBs to make it to the ball, but they do so much quick hitting stuff inside that it ruins that approach. It has to be hit in the mouth.
Great post Joey!  
Damon : 9/4/2015 4:09 pm : link
I haven't seen much of the preseason... How has Ellis looked? One would think he would be better suited than Kuhn? Yet I haven't seen much mentioned of him...
can't wait  
area junc : 9/4/2015 4:12 pm : link
to see Spags plan for the Eagles. I was embarrassed by Perry Fewell's lack of ideas against them and it looked like he never did anything special to defend McCoy.

Spags spent a lot of time with Urban Meyer learning how to defend the read and spread.
RE: Great post Joey!  
Joey in VA : 9/4/2015 4:58 pm : link
In comment 12454238 Damon said:
Quote:
I haven't seen much of the preseason... How has Ellis looked? One would think he would be better suited than Kuhn? Yet I haven't seen much mentioned of him...
He has looked stout to me, got some decent penetration too. He's a brick wall that can move, he needs more PT IMO.
Good job, Joey ....  
Manny in CA : 9/4/2015 5:35 pm : link
That's why Spags is here.

The big questions - does he have the "horses" ? He may not, especially on the D-line.

And how long will it take them to figure all this out. It's good to have Beason, he very smart. The eventual answer is Unga (who I hope they don't cut) - that kid fits Spags style (great gap shooter).

i had been on the road, but this is such a good  
idiotsavant : 9/8/2015 9:18 am : link
thread, I wanted to bring it up again.

Maybe a sticky through the Cowboys game??
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