before their 1st contract expires? They seem to always let those 2nd round picks to expire and explore the free agent market. The Eagles seem to extend their good young players a year or two early and get bargains. Wish the Giants would do that more often.
They could've kept LJ, but then you're digging into a philosophical question about when to exceed value placed on a player. I'd exceed it to retain Hankins, for example, but apparently the sentiment wasn't there for LJ.
before their 1st contract expires? They seem to always let those 2nd round picks to expire and explore the free agent market. The Eagles seem to extend their good young players a year or two early and get bargains. Wish the Giants would do that more often.
Giants players haven't survived long enough to get to contract #2.
Why? I can see them drafting another DT high in 2016 unless Bromley really comes on.
Because they were similar players and with Linval they would probably want more of a penetrating DT next to him. In hindsight I think they would be great next to each other but leading up to the draft Hankins was a plugger whi gets worn down during games. He got worn down because he never came off the field. I think the Giants have their premium poaitions where they would draft a player even if they had studs there already and that is WR, DE, and CB. When it comes to DT they value it high but more for the penetrating type. If Josephy was here I just dont see them spending a second round pick on Hankins.
Why let a 2nd rounder who proved he could perform at a high level go, only to draft another to replace him, when we could have had both and been able to stop being gashed up the middle consistently?
RE: Eric, I've been saying that since we let him go.
Why let a 2nd rounder who proved he could perform at a high level go, only to draft another to replace him, when we could have had both and been able to stop being gashed up the middle consistently?
Yup, just seems like you are spinning your wheels.
If the player is on the downside (Nicks), no issues. But a young, ascending player?
the Giants have one of the lowest cash payrolls in the NFL. Is that accurate? How many years has that been the case? Do the Giants have cash flow issues? Is that possible. There have been rumors the Jets do with their new stadium debt and that Idzik was taking the rap for Woody refusing to spend money last year. Whatever the reason the Giants really struggle to sign their own players and the free agents they've signed since the new stadium has opened have been dumpster dives. I guess DRC is the exception. Any others?
sure looks like they should have done so, especially given all the money as Eric notes that was sunk into players who didn't produce. Joseph was a known quantity. Reese has done a good job replacing run stuffing DTs. Cofield was replaced by Joseph who was replaced by Hankins. But he didn't realize the need for two great run stuffing DTs.
Coughlin had Henderson and Stroud at Jacksonville IIRC. You'd think he would have been able to convince Reese of the importance of keeping Joseph. Or maybe he agreed with him.
This game is won in the trenches. You must run and stop the run. We'd be much better at the latter with Hankins and Joseph.
My understanding is that Hankins is more the 3-technique penetrator now.
I would have liked to have a front with Joseph and Hankins next to each other, not Kuhn and Hankins.
I agree but that is now after we have seen what he can do. Nobody had him as a 3 tech until this past year. And, like I said, I think Hankins and Joseph would be great next to each other. I just think they took Hankins because there was value and need there. If we had Joseph the need wouldnt have been there. At least not as much of a need.
So we moved on from horrible drafting to horrible FA aquisition
not really sure I understand how they evaluated him. The Vikes gave him around 13 mil guaranteed over 5 years. IIRC a lot of that money was in the first two years of the deal, a large roster bonus as opposed to a signing bonus, which must be pro-rated over the life of the contract. But even so, it was still very doable.
The failure (or decision, if you want to mince words) to retain Joseph is one of their biggest mistakes over the last few seasons. They used a premium pick on Joseph and helped him develop. He became an above average run stopper and flashed some pass rushing, pocket collapsing ability. He was reliable (only missed 2 games in 3 seasons as a full time starter) and actually very productive for a NT-type, averaging over 50 tackles and 3 sacks a season. Then they simply let him walk and made no significant effort to sign him. If they don't value 1 tech DTs then why draft one that high? Isn't the point to draft and groom young talent? That's very poor roster management IMO.
If I had to guess they probably felt Hankins was the future of the position and that they could get by with a combination of Jenkins, Patterson, Kuhn, etc beside him. Obviously the results haven't been good with the run D plummeting to the bottom of the league last year. They played the Cofield situation the same way..."why pay him with Linval waiting in the wings?". I don't understand the affinity for below average-to-average veterans this FO has and this time it's really bitten them in the ass. You put Linval next to Big Hank and it not only becomes a position of strength, they'd have one of the best DT tandems in the league. They would've manned the middle much like the Wiliams's in Minnesota awhile back. It would've been quite a task to run right at the middle of the D. Instead they have Kuhn, whose mere presence on the roster ranks alongside Amelia Earhart and Stonehenge as one of the worlds great mysteries, and Bromley, who has had a nice summer but who is still really an unknown.
If you had to rank the Giants worst roster management decisions over the last decade letting Linval walk for 12.5 guaranteed has got to be near or at the top of the list.
Why? I can see them drafting another DT high in 2016 unless Bromley really comes on.
Eric, you are right here. Lineal and Hankins would have been a great DT tandem. They should have redone Eli'so deal last year and made us competitive then and now. Imagine this roster with another $10+ mill to spend the last 2 years
Linval was a good run stopper but got limited penetration on passing plays. Good player, not a great one.
Plus, they had to do something with the OL. As it tuned out Schwartz was injured and Walton was not very good. But fixing the OL was more of a priority than signing a B+ DT.
The real problem, of course, was all the dead money that went to Snee and Baas. But back in 2012, I think most Giant fans were in favor of restructuring those guys, which is what the Giants did and how they got themselves in trouble. But hindsight as they say is 20/20
before their 1st contract expires? They seem to always let those 2nd round picks to expire and explore the free agent market. The Eagles seem to extend their good young players a year or two early and get bargains. Wish the Giants would do that more often.
Totally agree. TC typically lets rookies ride the bench and uses them the 3rd and 4th years. By then, if they're good, we cannot afford to keep them.
we spend millions instead on Schwartz ($17 million), Walton ($5 million), Demps ($1 million), Thurmond ($3 million), McClain ($4.1 million), Paysinger ($1.4 million), Hillis ($1.8 million), Patterson ($900,000), Beason ($17 million), Stevie Brown ($3 million), Robert Ayers ($4 million)...not to mention John Jerry, Charlie Brown, Mario Manningham, Trindon Holliday, Josh Freeman, Rusty Smith, Adam Snyder, etc.?
Don't like all these examples. Ayers is making 1.2 million this year and is arguably our best DL. Thurmond looked good but got hurt. Schwartz is making only 1.6 this year and looks solid when healthy. Holliday got hurt but looked promising as well. McClain was a horrible signing though.
RE: So we moved on from horrible drafting to horrible FA aquisition
This is what makes the decision even more puzzling. From 2009-2014 Reese and company have really struggled with the draft. While they've had some nice hits like Pugh, Richburg, and Beckham, nearly half (45% rounded off, I believe) of their picks are out of the league. Not moved on to other teams, not developing as a backup, straight up out of the NFL. It ranks among the leagues worst rates. So it stands to reason that when they do hit on a player like Jospeh, a guy they used a high pick on and developed, they would make every effort to retain him. After all, you still build your team via the draft, right? But to hell with conventional wisdom, let one of the handful of truly good players you've drafted in the last 5 years walk for what was a relatively low, easy to match deal. Hell, Joseph even want d to stay here.
Instead, on the eve of week 1, we're left praying Kuhn somehow stops being a turnstile.
not really sure I understand how they evaluated him. The Vikes gave him around 13 mil guaranteed over 5 years. IIRC a lot of that money was in the first two years of the deal, a large roster bonus as opposed to a signing bonus, which must be pro-rated over the life of the contract. But even so, it was still very doable.
The failure (or decision, if you want to mince words) to retain Joseph is one of their biggest mistakes over the last few seasons. They used a premium pick on Joseph and helped him develop. He became an above average run stopper and flashed some pass rushing, pocket collapsing ability. He was reliable (only missed 2 games in 3 seasons as a full time starter) and actually very productive for a NT-type, averaging over 50 tackles and 3 sacks a season. Then they simply let him walk and made no significant effort to sign him. If they don't value 1 tech DTs then why draft one that high? Isn't the point to draft and groom young talent? That's very poor roster management IMO.
If I had to guess they probably felt Hankins was the future of the position and that they could get by with a combination of Jenkins, Patterson, Kuhn, etc beside him. Obviously the results haven't been good with the run D plummeting to the bottom of the league last year. They played the Cofield situation the same way..."why pay him with Linval waiting in the wings?". I don't understand the affinity for below average-to-average veterans this FO has and this time it's really bitten them in the ass. You put Linval next to Big Hank and it not only becomes a position of strength, they'd have one of the best DT tandems in the league. They would've manned the middle much like the Wiliams's in Minnesota awhile back. It would've been quite a task to run right at the middle of the D. Instead they have Kuhn, whose mere presence on the roster ranks alongside Amelia Earhart and Stonehenge as one of the worlds great mysteries, and Bromley, who has had a nice summer but who is still really an unknown.
If you had to rank the Giants worst roster management decisions over the last decade letting Linval walk for 12.5 guaranteed has got to be near or at the top of the list.
Absolutely correct. They let a proven player who they had developed leave because of a misguided belief that they could get by with journeyman at the other DT spot. This was done for an amount of money they could have afforded.
But I was shot down by a lot "no way is LJ worth that sort of money he is looking to get" posts. Funny thing by some on this very thread saying now how we should have kept him. There was also a lot of not great cap utilization and a bunch of keeping money for Eli and JPP posts.
But it's a legitimate criticism that'll he'll always go with the old vet over the unknown. His decision to reshape the OL when O'Hara got healthy in '10 was horrible.
I would agree. Instead of pairing him with Hankins,
I think we should have kept Joseph and perhaps Tuck. Lineal had a cap number of $6.6m which would not have been easy to match but was possible.
I wonder if the decision was heavily influenced by Fewell who emphasised the secondary.
Considering how Coughlin likes to stop the run, we should have kept Tuck over Kiwanuka.
As far as Lineal goes,$31.25m over 5 years is decent for a good young DT. Sure we would have had to compromise elsewhere but we would have a very strong front, leaving our LBs free to make plays.
I've mentioned Linval Joseph in several posts in my (short) tenure on this board. He's an example that gets to the point that cap management is as important as hitting on draft picks, because the clock ticks on rookie contracts.
Could the Giants have afforded Joseph if they made him a priority? Sure. Would it have been a good idea? Possibly, although I didn't follow him closely in 2014.
But the most pertinent question to me is: where are the Giants spending the big bucks that causes them to feel constrained when it comes to a player like Joseph? And are they getting the bang for those big bucks that they should be getting?
Dollars are dollars whether they are free agent or retention. Giants have $50 million in 2015 cap devoted to Eli, JPP, Victor Cruz and Will Beatty. Even if they were all healthy, and as much as they are justifiably loved/liked/appreciated for past efforts, I don't think the 2015 versions of those players would be supplying the appropriate return.
Once a large portion of cap is devoted to a few players, management will feel constrained to spread the remaining cap funds. Mistakes are going to be made in that regard and it is entirely fair to criticize the mistakes. But it is the large dollar commitments that set the stage and are the most appropriate focus of the greatest scrutiny.
and drafting DT and DT in the 2nd round limits the other positions they could have covered in the draft. They should resign ascending 1st contract players a year or two early like the Eagles do. Don't keep letting good players get to the free agent year.
we spend millions instead on Schwartz ($17 million), Walton ($5 million), Demps ($1 million), Thurmond ($3 million), McClain ($4.1 million), Paysinger ($1.4 million), Hillis ($1.8 million), Patterson ($900,000), Beason ($17 million), Stevie Brown ($3 million), Robert Ayers ($4 million)...not to mention John Jerry, Charlie Brown, Mario Manningham, Trindon Holliday, Josh Freeman, Rusty Smith, Adam Snyder, etc.?
Well said Eric. We have been putting money in the wrong places. Our D-Line would be a force with Linval, Hank and our DEs even without JPP. With JPP it could be one of the best in the league.
I have made the point in the past that you can't build and improve a roster if you are constantly letting successful draftees walk, especially if you keep sign other team's rejects to replace them.
And that goes double when you keep hanging on to other draftees that have not demonstrated that they can play in the NFL.
Letting Joseph go was full on incompetence and one of Reese's biggest mistakes as a GM. J rud has put the case for retaining Joseph very well in this thread.
What will sting this year is that if you have two very good DTs in the middle of your defense, it hides inadequacies at the two DE positions. We could really have really used that protective cover this season.
Some on this thread have been consistent; that is they bemoaned the loss of LinJo..A goodly amount on here, myself included were fine with it AT THE TIME..Hankins was drafted, thought to be very similar in technique and many thought had a bigger upside than LinJo...
Would I like him here now? Why not, but at the time, there weren't too many broken up over his loss iirc
I think a huge part of the BBI sentiment right now is driven by the fact that JPP and Beatty are MIA. If those two guys -- even overpaid -- were healthy, we'd feel a lot better about our chances in the NFC East.
if Linval Joseph and Martellus Bennett were here. They'd elevate both units significantly. Instead, we spend irresponsibly on other teams' cast-offs and wind up wasting precious draft picks on potential replacements. It's really sad what's come of this roster in such a short amount of time.
Some on this thread have been consistent; that is they bemoaned the loss of LinJo..A goodly amount on here, myself included were fine with it AT THE TIME..Hankins was drafted, thought to be very similar in technique and many thought had a bigger upside than LinJo...
Would I like him here now? Why not, but at the time, there weren't too many broken up over his loss iirc
Welcome to BBI.
You had JPP vs LJ who do you pay at the start of the 2013 season. Then you had the we got to save money to extend Eli contract at the end of 2014. BTW, how did any of that work out?
Then those posts that criticized him because he was part of the Giants poor run defense years. The consensus was oh Hankins is going to take his spot; cap management; blah blah.
They should have signed him to an ext. after week 1 when it was clear as day he was a player. They should have had him and then made a strong move for his brother as BBI poster KWALL explained back in 2013.
not resigning Joseph was an obvious error as it transpired, at least to me. This isn't MMQBing.
One other way to view the situation is that making a "resource allocation" decision as Reese did with LJ is what talent-laden championship teams do. In fact, when LJ was allowed to walk, the Giants talent base was in the midst of collapse. Teams in those situations don't make "resource allocation" decisions - if they have a good player on their squad, they make sure to keep him because there aren't any other players to pay.
So the LJ decision was made by a management team completely oblivious to what was happening to their team. I believe this disconnect from reality has been bridged and think Reese has gone back to doing good work leading this team, but the gap left by LJ walking is the result of a GM severely underperforming I'd say starting in 2010 when the obvious decay in the OL was disregarded to the 2012 draft to Several other misfires.
is that we shelved LJ for his rookie year, and spent time developing him only to let him walk away. I understand rosters turnover, but you cannot let first and second rounders walk unless they are dogs.
if they let LJ walk knowing that Eli, JPP and Nicks were looking to cash in. I think if Jerry had a crystal ball, and knew JPP would blow up his hand, and that Hakeem's body would fail on him, he would have kept LJ.
if they let LJ walk knowing that Eli, JPP and Nicks were looking to cash in. I think if Jerry had a crystal ball, and knew JPP would blow up his hand, and that Hakeem's body would fail on him, he would have kept LJ.
They should have signed him to an ext. after week 1 when it was clear as day he was a player. They should have had him and then made a strong move for his brother as BBI poster KWALL explained back in 2013.
I said that the day he signed with Chicago, and I've been saying it ever since. Letting Bennett walk was Reese's biggest blunder. It cost the Giants the playoffs in 2013. Yeah, I know they started 0-6, but they would have started 3-3 and made the playoffs.
would have been an overpaid run stuffer and unfortunately we forget that the Giants were also well aware that in the long term (not that far down the road actually) They would have had to pay Cruz, Prince, Eli and JPP..
The Giants are falling apart because they dont have Linval Joseph.. anymore than the Giant fell apart when they let Barry Cofield go..
and posted many times the same thing. This front office sucks and should be cleaned out. They do not have a clue. Bad drafts, bad FA pick ups and releases. Turned a super bowl winner with a hall of fame HC and QB into cellar dwellers with their incompetence. Yet they are still here and lots of good people are gone ???
All I know is the Giants are not spending that much money lately, relatively speaking that is. They are near the bottom in total money spent over the last few years. Forget the cap there are ways to circumvent that shit.
Fuck met life stadium. It's done nothing but hurt this franchise since the moment they took a wrecking ball to the old house. Both the giants and jets have taken a financial beating the last few years, no thanks to the new stadium.
48 tackles, 3 sacks and 1 pass defensed. That's about what he averaged per season with the Giants.
His contract is as follows:
Runs through 2018 and guarantees him $12.5M, $12.0M of which was payable in 2014. So, his guaranteed money is just about paid as of the end of 2014.
In 2014. His salary was $12.0 with $6.6M Cap Number
In 2015, his salary is $4.5M with $4.6M Cap Number
In 2016, his salary is $$5.65 with $6.35M Cap Number
In 2017, his salary is $6.15M with $6.85M Cap Number
In 2018, his salary is $5.15M with $6.85M Cap Number
So, his guaranteed money is paid in full as of this year. His Cap Number in 2014 was $6.6M and in 2015 it's $4.6M.
IMO Reese could have restructured contracts, especially Eli's, to satisfy the $6.6M Cap Number in 2014 and the relatively low $4.6M Cap Number in 2015.
IMO there is no question but that we could have afforded LJ's contract.
Reese really blew it. As Sonny and Cher sing, "And the beat goes on"!!!
was we need to re-sign Nicks, Cruz, and then JPP on the horizon. So we can't re-sign Joseph or Bennett.
Plus we drafted Hankins, and we were good at either signing or drafting a DT, so no need to invest in Joseph. Plus the stuff I said above, and that was the type and posts on BBI then.
quarterbacking. Sorry. The Vikes paid a pretty big guaranteed contract to LJ and most on this board at that time understood that the Giants were cap constrained and couldn't pay him that. In hindsight, I guess you can question it. But if you are then you have to think about the butterfly effect, and we probably do not have Hankins on the team.
I take Hankins over LJ.
I think there are a lot more prudent hand-wringing issues with the draft and where we allocated FA cap dollars than this. Fine, be unhappy with Reese's inability to find LBers, be unhappy with Reese thinking he can build online on the cheap. Be unhappy that our drafts have not built out the core of this team.
But picking on this one FA departure is I think more a testament to the degree people are pissed off or upset than the merits of letting LJ go overall.
We keep spinning our wheels in the dirt. Can't move forward when you have to keep replacing starters. Not only have Reese's drafts suck his decision-making on who to keep and let go has been atrocious.
about Bennett. 5M guaranteed (4 yrs 20M), that was a no-brainer.
the bottom line at DT is it falls back to draft picks.
if Marvin Austin (2nd round pick) panned out you wouldn't be having this conversation. Because it would have been Cofield to Linval to Austin (instead of Hankins), but it's been the Giants MO for 10 years now, hit on a DT in the draft and let the proven one go.
If the Giants hit on the Bromley pick (and they still might) we wouldn't need to have this conversation. Teams are very selective about the players they sign to a 2nd contract.
the things you do are just as important for the franchise as the things you don't so. Dropping a NFL QB high contract on Eli if we are going to majority rebuild or dropping $15M on JPP who is arguably not a leader you build around in the first place and now is missing fingers are potentially two moves you do not make.
Are these going to be the things we are talking about here one way or the other in three years? I don't know. It is sure feeling that way though.
They finished 28th in offense, despite having a franchise QB and a solid receiving corps because Eli had no time.
If you have a franchise QB, you have to protect him. Signing OL was an absolute must last offseason. And that's what they did with Walton and Schwartz. They also signed a RB.
They just did not have the cap room to keep Linval unless they cut Rolle. So that was basically the choice: Linval or Rolle
we deployed $$$ to DRC to fill major hole at CB which btw, our depth still sucks at. I would say we are better at DT than CB and that is because we are think everywhere. I would feel not much better about things with LJ on the current roster, what do we don't have the Kuhn debate. BFD.
There is not a panacea here. It is not one move that is the issue. It is the conflation of them.
Brown, Walton, and Jerry are utter garbage. Walton played on roller skates. Reynolds wouldn't have been worse. Schwartz they got unlucky with, but even before he got hurt, he didn't look worth the money.
We had years of horrid drafts and we shifted to years of horrid
FA pick ups to try and address those terrible drafts. So while the drafting has gotten better, the horrid FAs we got just made us worse along with the bad players we drafted in those years. I've never really thought of it in those terms before.
Minions are running this organization into the ground. And its not over. The Eli mess is developing behind the scenes and will hang over this disaster of a season and turn real ugly as the loses mount. But hey Johnny has some PSL money left and will hang onto it for dear life while subjecting the suckers who fell for his scheme to a third rate performance.
the scene where they are freaking losing it and going to kill each other in the capsule, when Jim Lovell says:
"All right, we're not doing this, gentlemen. We are *not* doing this. We're not going to go bouncing off the walls for ten minutes, 'cause we're just going to end up back here with the same problems!"
That is how I feel some of our threads here at BBI feel like as of late. There are dozens of things that got the team to where it is right now, many interconnected. I know bouncing off the walls is what we come here for (I guess) but that is what we are doing.
admitting I was wrong. At the time, I thought we had to let Joseph go because of the size of the contract he got from Minnesota, and the other players we had to resign. I underestimated his worth to the team, specifically how he could help control the LOS on one side of the ball. He was a lane clogger who had shown some penetrating ability, and paired with another DT like Hankins, would make our DEs much more effective.
Of course, we wouldn't be in so much trouble in that regard if Reese had drafted Paea instead of Austin. Reese has been trying to find a penetrating DT for years. He signed Canty, took a wild gamble with a second round pick on Austin, and then surprised everyone by taking Bromley in the third.
RE: We had years of horrid drafts and we shifted to years of horrid
FA pick ups to try and address those terrible drafts. So while the drafting has gotten better, the horrid FAs we got just made us worse along with the bad players we drafted in those years. I've never really thought of it in those terms before.
You should. Because that's what bad teams do. They try to make up for bad drafts with free agents, but typically overspend in that regard. It rarely works. Look at the Redskins for years under Snyder.
Remember that we drafted Clint Sintim instead of Max Unger. So two years later, Reese overspends for Baas because we're desperate for a center. He also overspent for Beatty because he drafted David Wilson instead of Cordy Glenn.
I feel similar about Marty Bennett- but Joseph even more so- the minute we let him go out run d went to shit and we lost toughness up the middle.
The scrubs we consistently sign (3 players who stink on smaller deals) instead of these guys are just ridiculous.
Many on bbi gave the "we couldn't sign him he cost too much or some other blind faith loyalty crap.
It was a huge miss and we still suffer
Great job jerry
The Giants need to spend more money. In the mid 2000s I think They had a lot more guys making big bucks than this current team does. Think about the OL in say 2010 compared to now. You had every starting player on his second contract making big bux. Now you have Beatty and Schwartz and Schwartz isn't even that highly paid compared to a guy like Snee or Mckenzie. Richburg and Pugh and flowers make pennies compared to the 2010 line. The Wrs of today not much different from the late 2000s. The RBs are about the same. Eli is about the same.
The defense of today is making pennies compared to the defense of 2010 or so. Back then you had tuck, canty and Osi getting paid now you have JPP just now coming off his rookie deal. Who else is getting paid on the DL? Uhh nobody. Moore, Wynn, selvie, Hankins, Bromley, all making peanuts. And even JPP is only now about to get paid, possibly. The LBs? Bargain basement rates there too outside of Beason and he was told to take a pay cut which he agreed to. Kennard- peanuts... Thomas and cassilas ok fine they are getting veteran deals but nothing crazy. And last but not least the secondary--- DRC is getting bank everyone else? Chump change. Remember 2010? You had rolle and Webster. Oh and we just cut our expensive punter for a kid making peanuts.
I'm not stupid I know this team is pinching pennies it's as clear as day. Mara even admitted the stadium took a bite out of their wallets, but this is getting ridiculous. They better improve this season and they better start adding some grade A beef to this roster instead of acting like the Jaguars and trying to build slow and steady. Love my Giants but I can't ignore this.
now the Giants are pinching pennies? This is the first year I can remember that they are sitting on cap room. In fact, it was even over the last couple years we were expressing concern that we were too top heavy. We are paying ELi a darn truckload. That makes a huge difference, that and betting on the wrong guys.
This is not about not spending money. This is about not making good picks so you have guys on very affordable contracts making huge impacts. This is about spending a lot of money trying to fill those holes and missing. This is not about saving money.
And what the hell has happened when a major portion of BBI wanted to give Reese and TC lifetime passes because of 07 and 11???
RE: RE: We had years of horrid drafts and we shifted to years of horrid
FA pick ups to try and address those terrible drafts. So while the drafting has gotten better, the horrid FAs we got just made us worse along with the bad players we drafted in those years. I've never really thought of it in those terms before.
You should. Because that's what bad teams do. They try to make up for bad drafts with free agents, but typically overspend in that regard. It rarely works. Look at the Redskins for years under Snyder.
Remember that we drafted Clint Sintim instead of Max Unger. So two years later, Reese overspends for Baas because we're desperate for a center. He also overspent for Beatty because he drafted David Wilson instead of Cordy Glenn.
Slow up. We won a Superbowl with Baas starting at center. Therefore Baas was a good signing. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
I wasn't happy with letting him walk as I liked bringing in DRC but I also believed they would devote more resources to the DL other than signing a bunch of walk ons and mid round picks.
I have faith that this team can do some good this year but if we had Joseph right now I'd feel much better. He was a safe reliable player. Hopefully Bromley and his lumpy calves can help the cause. Kuhn is Jim Burt without the productive values until proven otherwise.
They may feel the best way to do this is to develop a core of young home grown talent and then plug holes via FA ala 2005. It's a sound strategy but we will see if that's how they go about doing things here. You can't deny the lack of star power on this team compared to 5 years ago. Obviously you can't just pluck a star out of thin air and pay him but they did let Bennett walk. They let Joseph walk. Now they miss those players.
This is a big 12-16 months for me. I'm a pretty level headed patient nyg fan I try and keep a perspective on things and let shit unfold before condemning the staff of team. I can accept the last 2 years but for me the clock is fucking ticking. It's time to kick ass again and field a team worthy of our attention. I want progress this year and assets devoted to the cause next offseason.
Keeping the cap in a good state is vital...so attempting to not overpaid is logical and wise. However KNOWING the draft is a crapshoot the value in keeping a young good player so you can continue to build and reuse upcoming drafts to refill the void is unwise. Then add in we are average drafters at best the system on how the team is maintained in to long-term is illogical. So couple poor draft and scrape heap FA style we utilize is not efficient nor effective for sustaining a viable team for a medium size window at competing for 'ships. Sometimes you have to pay a guy and paying a guy coming off his rookie contract that as met the criteria and goals you are looking for is better than saying we can save a few million and hope the next kid has the goods as well or that injured guy\underachiever guy\project guy is that lost diamond or reclamation project that will hit on. Yea it works from time to time but you'll never have longevity like that.
Keeping the cap in a good state is vital...so attempting to not overpaid is logical and wise. However KNOWING the draft is a crapshoot the value in keeping a young good player so you can continue to build and not reuse upcoming drafts to refill the void is an unwise direction. Then add in we are average drafters at best. The system on how the team is maintained in to long-term is illogical. So couple in poor drafts and our scrape heap FA style we utilize is not efficient nor effective for sustaining a viable team for a medium size window when trying to competing for 'ships. Sometimes you have to pay a guy and paying a guy coming off his rookie contract that as met the criteria and goals you are looking for is better than saying we can save a few million and hope the next kid has the goods as well or that injured guy\underachiever guy\project guy is that lost diamond or reclamation project that will hit on. Yea it works from time to time but you'll never have longevity like that.
The way i see it we chose Beason over LJ and it has not worked out because Beason hasn't played. With Hankins on his rookie deal we should have been able to afford LJ... Not to mention we spent a 3rd rounder trying to replace him.
LJ wasn't a superstar, but he was under-rated by many fans. We had a much better run D with LJ. He and Hankins would have been a great pair of DTs.
The way i see it we chose Beason over LJ and it has not worked out because Beason hasn't played. With Hankins on his rookie deal we should have been able to afford LJ... Not to mention we spent a 3rd rounder trying to replace him.
LJ wasn't a superstar, but he was under-rated by many fans. We had a much better run D with LJ. He and Hankins would have been a great pair of DTs.
And the mind boggling thing is, if your DL is monster, then your LBs don't need to be that great. Its the way we won superbowls. Beason will never play a full season here. its rediculous by now.
going to play Monday Morning QB for the next freaking 6 months?
I am when you let a second-round pick who was a very good player leave when his first contract is up and a huge void is left by his departure.
I think that is a conversation worth having.
When are the contracts up for Chris Mara, Jerry Reese, Kevin Abrams, Marc Ross and Ken Sternfeld, and any other friends/relatives of the owners. Wouldn't those be gaps that could be profitably filled?
The way i see it we chose Beason over LJ and it has not worked out because Beason hasn't played. With Hankins on his rookie deal we should have been able to afford LJ... Not to mention we spent a 3rd rounder trying to replace him.
LJ wasn't a superstar, but he was under-rated by many fans. We had a much better run D with LJ. He and Hankins would have been a great pair of DTs.
This is the most rational analysis on this thread. And it is actually kind of hard to refute. But Beason was credited with turning the defense around. I wonder how many here would have been in favor of letting Beason walk to sign Linval. In retrospect that would have been the right move. But would it have been perceived that way at the time?
That's really the ultimate in Monday Morning Quarterbacking. I agree that Reese failed at least for a few years with rounds 4-7. But, he had extraordinarily bad luck with higher picks. At certain points, before they got hurt Nicks and and Phillips looked like all Pros in the making. David Wilson, to me, was not an every down pick and I would not have taken him with the 1st pick (which by the way was the last pick in the 1st round). But, used in optimum spots, especially in the McAdoo offense, he could have been lethal in certain spots. Is it Reese's decision making or is it bad luck with these "horrid" drafts?
...and have been called an idiot (or worse) for it.
The Giants run defense was top 10 in 2013, and it was not just because of Beason. In fact, it was mostly due to Joseph. The money overspent on spent on JD Walton ($3mm), Stevie Brown ($4mm) and Paysinger ($1.4mm) could easily have paid for L. Joseph.
All of those players could have been kept on the Giants roster if they got a fraction of what Reese paid them. No other team would have wanted them at those ridiculous salaries.
Had Cofield at the 3-tech, drafted Alford in the 3rd. Then moved Cofield to the 1-tech. Then use a #2 on Austin, missed, use another #2 on Joseph, lose Cofield, then use another #2 on Hankins, let Joseph go
What's on deck? Draft another DT in the 2nd Round next year to prepare for Hankins departure soon?
Not overspending to keep quality guys but overspending on cheaper, marginal (depth) guys. What you end up with is a roster full of marginal guys (like we have now).
If it's between overpaying for a Joseph and going to war with rookies or vet min FAs vs. overpaying marginal vets and letting our own talented but not great guys walk, I choose the former.
A million here, a million there and pretty soon you're spending real money on these backup types when you could have spent the same on one or two bigger talent homegrown types (or heck, FAs).
Really bugs me.
RE: RE: RE: We had years of horrid drafts and we shifted to years of horrid
FA pick ups to try and address those terrible drafts. So while the drafting has gotten better, the horrid FAs we got just made us worse along with the bad players we drafted in those years. I've never really thought of it in those terms before.
You should. Because that's what bad teams do. They try to make up for bad drafts with free agents, but typically overspend in that regard. It rarely works. Look at the Redskins for years under Snyder.
Remember that we drafted Clint Sintim instead of Max Unger. So two years later, Reese overspends for Baas because we're desperate for a center. He also overspent for Beatty because he drafted David Wilson instead of Cordy Glenn.
Slow up. We won a Superbowl with Baas starting at center. Therefore Baas was a good signing. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
Unger was highly rated guy and we took an3-4 LB. BAD. Baas wasn't a bad signing. His two restructured were horrible.
Reese sucks and his loyalists here always have some stupid excuse.
So here's one. Why the fuck haven't they extended Hankins whom all of you are lauding Reese for drafting. Can't wait for his next deal with some other team because that's Reese's general trend. The one guy he did re-up was Beatty who got 18 mil up front and the sucked. Then when he rose to mediocre all was forgiven but the Reese apologists. They fave him a deal that made him uncuttable for 3 years. At the time he got his deal it was a damn good one for a mediocre JAG.
Joseph's contract was front loaded but for a starting good to very good DT 12 mill bonus and 6 per year is resonable.
Excuses are fine. But in the end Reese the cap, the draft, and FA. Mara and Tiche would rather lose than upset their precious model of stability.
While the wrong decision, even at the time IMO, it's very easy to pigeonhole it as a Joseph/DT vs DRC/cb thing in terms of cap value. I know that's how I looked at it. A year and change back, you had to be cognizant of a potentially huge JPP deal or tag, which we're dealing with now. We also had a guy like Will Hill, with a ton of talent and an expiring deal...if he kept his shit together, he may have been in line for some $$$. So I'm sure that factored into the decision. Kind of another example of our upside gambles biting us, even when trying to handicap and manage the cap.
That said, I'm going to talk out of both sides of my mouth and say that an organization with a spotty 5 year draft history, should be re-signing one of the few the guys they hit with.
Your reaching now to bang the Giants. Or is it Reese? Either way the season hasn't even started and your working your way into mid-season disaster mode.
First off, ripping down the old stadium was a travesty and while I hate to bring "morality" into it , it was morally wrong - particuarly in a country where the infrastructure is falling apart.
But how could the stadium have impacted so much financially.? Other people put up stadiums alone and here the costs were split. Then didn't the outrageous sale of a licence to buy a ticket recoup alot of the costs.?
It is easy to make assertions here, I wonder what really went on.
The Giants need to spend more money. In the mid 2000s I think They had a lot more guys making big bucks than this current team does. Think about the OL in say 2010 compared to now. You had every starting player on his second contract making big bux. Now you have Beatty and Schwartz and Schwartz isn't even that highly paid compared to a guy like Snee or Mckenzie. Richburg and Pugh and flowers make pennies compared to the 2010 line. The Wrs of today not much different from the late 2000s. The RBs are about the same. Eli is about the same.
The defense of today is making pennies compared to the defense of 2010 or so. Back then you had tuck, canty and Osi getting paid now you have JPP just now coming off his rookie deal. Who else is getting paid on the DL? Uhh nobody. Moore, Wynn, selvie, Hankins, Bromley, all making peanuts. And even JPP is only now about to get paid, possibly. The LBs? Bargain basement rates there too outside of Beason and he was told to take a pay cut which he agreed to. Kennard- peanuts... Thomas and cassilas ok fine they are getting veteran deals but nothing crazy. And last but not least the secondary--- DRC is getting bank everyone else? Chump change. Remember 2010? You had rolle and Webster. Oh and we just cut our expensive punter for a kid making peanuts.
I'm not stupid I know this team is pinching pennies it's as clear as day. Mara even admitted the stadium took a bite out of their wallets, but this is getting ridiculous. They better improve this season and they better start adding some grade A beef to this roster instead of acting like the Jaguars and trying to build slow and steady. Love my Giants but I can't ignore this.
Interesting about the penny pinching. I also think they decided to spend more on the "skilled" positions, leaving them leftover bums for the OL, linebacker, etc.
considering that the final $$ was not that big. For some reason the Giants didnt value him or perhaps there was more to the situation than we know. Maybe the agent wanted a lot more from the Giants than he was able to get on the open market. Maybe LJ didnt like playing in NY and wanted out but never said it publicly.
Looking at the production and the numbers it just doesnt make sense. Plus for those people saying we would not have drafted Hankins thats not true. We drafted Hankins while LJ was on the roster. I would hope that the people that make the decision werent so short sighted thinking that Hankins was the better player (which he is) and just let LJ walk without thinking we could have 2 dominant guys plugging the middle.
The Giants dont usually let good players in their prime leave without making a push to keep them. LJ seems to be one they barely attempted to keep from what I read. I am sure if we signed him to a nice contract people would complain he is not living up to the money.
Why would they? He's two years in with two more to go.
Because he's a top tier player and to me it makes sense to extend a porential star's deal to manage the cap and lock in the guys you do hit on.
If he has an great year will he want to extend next year? Sure for top dollar. Why not extend on a deal that both can live w a year earlier. Is Bromley so assured of success that we will replay the Joseph scenario and have this same discussion a d replace the names?
And yet DT and DE could easily both be among our biggest needs come next year's draft. Dallas and Philly are going to eat us up upfront this year, so yeah, I agree, we should have kept him.
Instead we have a parade of garbage rotating with a guy who wins a spot by feasting on John Jerry in practice but gets blown back past the safety in games.
RE: Since 2010 they have spent 7 top 3 picks on DL
And yet DT and DE could easily both be among our biggest needs come next year's draft. Dallas and Philly are going to eat us up upfront this year, so yeah, I agree, we should have kept him.
Yup - and they clearly try to keep the DE while allowing the DT to walk. Meanwhile, they keep shuffling free agents in and out with many getting starts. I don't understand why they don't keep those rare DT they develop rather than continually using high draft picks on a position which should be set.
And so on and so forth..Again, as some have opined above, AT THE TIME, we were up against the cap, most of us were worried we wouldn't have money to re-sign Cruz, Nicks and JPP..
Anyone have a link to the thread when LinJo signed with the Vikes and even threads leading up to his walking? I clicked on Archives and the corner forum keeps coming up..I'd love to see who really was disturbed when LinJo signed elsewhere..
Anyone have a link to the thread when LinJo signed with the Vikes and even threads leading up to his walking? I clicked on Archives and the corner forum keeps coming up..I'd love to see who really was disturbed when LinJo signed elsewhere..
but at the time most of us thought LJ was expendable, that we had to focus the cap on other needs, and that the Giants had a crop of DTs in the wing to replace him -- It's hard to predict Austin wouldn't work out -- he looked like a value pick at the time - and if Austin had worked out this thread would not be posted
-- It's hard to predict Austin wouldn't work out -- he looked like a value pick at the time - and if Austin had worked out this thread would not be posted
I don't understand. Austin was already off the team long before Joseph left. Austin got cut in 2012. His flopping was all the more reason that Joseph should have been extended.
Sorry, meant to say that Austin was cut after the 2012 season
The Giants had a pro bowl C on the roster 2 years into a 5 yr deal. Why would they spend a 2nd on a C with a top level player already there and having Snee and Suebert as G
Baas got hurt. He had played I believe 60 straight games for SF and then got hurt as soon as the ink dried with the Giants. When he was healthy he played well
Sintim was a shitty pick but they were never going to draft Unger
if they let LJ walk knowing that Eli, JPP and Nicks were looking to cash in. I think if Jerry had a crystal ball, and knew JPP would blow up his hand, and that Hakeem's body would fail on him, he would have kept LJ.
was we need to re-sign Nicks, Cruz, and then JPP on the horizon. So we can't re-sign Joseph or Bennett.
Plus we drafted Hankins, and we were good at either signing or drafting a DT, so no need to invest in Joseph. Plus the stuff I said above, and that was the type and posts on BBI then.
Correct. The Giants have had a lot of success with get DT signings and drafting them. They do not seem to value as a position to sink major resources into. They'll typically sign a mid-range guy whether it was Robbins or Jenkins and pair them with a young player like Coefield/Alford, LinJo, and now Hankins. Canty being an exception.
They prefer to spend more $ and higher (1st rd picks) on WR, DE, CB and S. Even OL they've used top resources on. It's also unfair to say they are unwilling to spend $, when they had every intention to bring in McCourty this offseason. They would've preferred to allocate big $ at that spot and fill in around Hankins with later found picks or a cheaper signing. They just were unable to reel him in, and there was no one else available worth spending big $ on. People would feel very different about this defense with McCourty and JPP - nevermind LinJo. Whether they still also draft Collins, or used that 2nd rd pick on another position (maybe DT), the team (and D) would be much much better.
an NFL player. Really hope he can step into a solid rotational role and maybe starter by mid season. Not being able to stop the run with better frequency will turn this suspect defense into a shit-show.
The value we get out of DRC/Prince will be neutralized and the Safeties/LBs will be biting on play action all season.
I wanted us to re-sign Joseph over Beason. Beason had a slightly higher average salary (prior to his restructuring this off-season) at the time of the deal ($5.25 for LJ, $5.67 for Beason).
Markus Kuhn seems like a solid guy. I want to root for him but he's just awful, and knowing that there could have potentially been a Joseph/Hankins duo in the middle of the DL instead just makes one nauseous.
to the defense a good DT or a good MLB? Given Beason's injury history, I suppose an always healthy LJ would have been the safer signing. But a healthy Beason was more important - turns out Beason couldn't stay healthy.
Yes, if the money was there, I would gladly have kept LJ. But it wasn't.
I think losing Marcellus Bennett was a bigger loss.
Markus Kuhn seems like a solid guy. I want to root for him but he's just awful, and knowing that there could have potentially been a Joseph/Hankins duo in the middle of the DL instead just makes one nauseous.
+1 - it's amazing how often the Giants allocate 2nd or 3rd rounders on the same position. If they just kept a guy they hit on they could use those picks on other positions. Do they draft Hankins future replacement with another #2 pick next year?
Didn't Cofield get a really fat salary when we had little cap space to work with? We also had Canty with Joseph waiting in the wings. The DL had much more depth at that time as a whole. I have a hard time getting upset about that one.
Should have signed Martellus Bennett too to avoid Donnell and his fumbles .
What a disaster.
Why? I can see them drafting another DT high in 2016 unless Bromley really comes on.
War Bromley?!
Giants players haven't survived long enough to get to contract #2.
The only ones were cruz and Joseph.
30th rated DT/NT.
I know people hate PFF, but I didn't watch the Vikings often and I doubt anyone else did enough to have a solid opinion on how he played.
So consider this a data point, and then everyone can rail about how bad PFF sucks.
I am when you let a second-round pick who was a very good player leave when his first contract is up and a huge void is left by his departure.
I think that is a conversation worth having.
Quote:
going to play Monday Morning QB for the next freaking 6 months?
I am when you let a second-round pick who was a very good player leave when his first contract is up and a huge void is left by his departure.
I think that is a conversation worth having.
In that case, perhaps we should have kept Cofield?
I don't understand letting good high round picks leave before their second contract.
Quote:
Then I doubt we draft Hankins.
Why? I can see them drafting another DT high in 2016 unless Bromley really comes on.
Because they were similar players and with Linval they would probably want more of a penetrating DT next to him. In hindsight I think they would be great next to each other but leading up to the draft Hankins was a plugger whi gets worn down during games. He got worn down because he never came off the field. I think the Giants have their premium poaitions where they would draft a player even if they had studs there already and that is WR, DE, and CB. When it comes to DT they value it high but more for the penetrating type. If Josephy was here I just dont see them spending a second round pick on Hankins.
I would have liked to have a front with Joseph and Hankins next to each other, not Kuhn and Hankins.
Quote:
going to play Monday Morning QB for the next freaking 6 months?
I am when you let a second-round pick who was a very good player leave when his first contract is up and a huge void is left by his departure.
I think that is a conversation worth having.
Let Bromley play before saying it's such a huge void.
As a rookie Linval played 62 snaps.
For comparison, Hankins played 195 in 2013 and Bromley played 113 last year.
Some of that is a function of the players ahead of them in the rotation, but some times we forget it takes the rookies time to develop.
I thought Bromley looked much better in pre-season.
Yup, just seems like you are spinning your wheels.
If the player is on the downside (Nicks), no issues. But a young, ascending player?
Coughlin had Henderson and Stroud at Jacksonville IIRC. You'd think he would have been able to convince Reese of the importance of keeping Joseph. Or maybe he agreed with him.
This game is won in the trenches. You must run and stop the run. We'd be much better at the latter with Hankins and Joseph.
I would have liked to have a front with Joseph and Hankins next to each other, not Kuhn and Hankins.
I agree but that is now after we have seen what he can do. Nobody had him as a 3 tech until this past year. And, like I said, I think Hankins and Joseph would be great next to each other. I just think they took Hankins because there was value and need there. If we had Joseph the need wouldnt have been there. At least not as much of a need.
The failure (or decision, if you want to mince words) to retain Joseph is one of their biggest mistakes over the last few seasons. They used a premium pick on Joseph and helped him develop. He became an above average run stopper and flashed some pass rushing, pocket collapsing ability. He was reliable (only missed 2 games in 3 seasons as a full time starter) and actually very productive for a NT-type, averaging over 50 tackles and 3 sacks a season. Then they simply let him walk and made no significant effort to sign him. If they don't value 1 tech DTs then why draft one that high? Isn't the point to draft and groom young talent? That's very poor roster management IMO.
If I had to guess they probably felt Hankins was the future of the position and that they could get by with a combination of Jenkins, Patterson, Kuhn, etc beside him. Obviously the results haven't been good with the run D plummeting to the bottom of the league last year. They played the Cofield situation the same way..."why pay him with Linval waiting in the wings?". I don't understand the affinity for below average-to-average veterans this FO has and this time it's really bitten them in the ass. You put Linval next to Big Hank and it not only becomes a position of strength, they'd have one of the best DT tandems in the league. They would've manned the middle much like the Wiliams's in Minnesota awhile back. It would've been quite a task to run right at the middle of the D. Instead they have Kuhn, whose mere presence on the roster ranks alongside Amelia Earhart and Stonehenge as one of the worlds great mysteries, and Bromley, who has had a nice summer but who is still really an unknown.
If you had to rank the Giants worst roster management decisions over the last decade letting Linval walk for 12.5 guaranteed has got to be near or at the top of the list.
Should have signed Martellus Bennett too to avoid Donnell and his fumbles .
THIS
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Then I doubt we draft Hankins.
Why? I can see them drafting another DT high in 2016 unless Bromley really comes on.
Eric, you are right here. Lineal and Hankins would have been a great DT tandem. They should have redone Eli'so deal last year and made us competitive then and now. Imagine this roster with another $10+ mill to spend the last 2 years
Plus, they had to do something with the OL. As it tuned out Schwartz was injured and Walton was not very good. But fixing the OL was more of a priority than signing a B+ DT.
The real problem, of course, was all the dead money that went to Snee and Baas. But back in 2012, I think most Giant fans were in favor of restructuring those guys, which is what the Giants did and how they got themselves in trouble. But hindsight as they say is 20/20
Totally agree. TC typically lets rookies ride the bench and uses them the 3rd and 4th years. By then, if they're good, we cannot afford to keep them.
Don't like all these examples. Ayers is making 1.2 million this year and is arguably our best DL. Thurmond looked good but got hurt. Schwartz is making only 1.6 this year and looks solid when healthy. Holliday got hurt but looked promising as well. McClain was a horrible signing though.
This is what makes the decision even more puzzling. From 2009-2014 Reese and company have really struggled with the draft. While they've had some nice hits like Pugh, Richburg, and Beckham, nearly half (45% rounded off, I believe) of their picks are out of the league. Not moved on to other teams, not developing as a backup, straight up out of the NFL. It ranks among the leagues worst rates. So it stands to reason that when they do hit on a player like Jospeh, a guy they used a high pick on and developed, they would make every effort to retain him. After all, you still build your team via the draft, right? But to hell with conventional wisdom, let one of the handful of truly good players you've drafted in the last 5 years walk for what was a relatively low, easy to match deal. Hell, Joseph even want d to stay here.
Instead, on the eve of week 1, we're left praying Kuhn somehow stops being a turnstile.
The failure (or decision, if you want to mince words) to retain Joseph is one of their biggest mistakes over the last few seasons. They used a premium pick on Joseph and helped him develop. He became an above average run stopper and flashed some pass rushing, pocket collapsing ability. He was reliable (only missed 2 games in 3 seasons as a full time starter) and actually very productive for a NT-type, averaging over 50 tackles and 3 sacks a season. Then they simply let him walk and made no significant effort to sign him. If they don't value 1 tech DTs then why draft one that high? Isn't the point to draft and groom young talent? That's very poor roster management IMO.
If I had to guess they probably felt Hankins was the future of the position and that they could get by with a combination of Jenkins, Patterson, Kuhn, etc beside him. Obviously the results haven't been good with the run D plummeting to the bottom of the league last year. They played the Cofield situation the same way..."why pay him with Linval waiting in the wings?". I don't understand the affinity for below average-to-average veterans this FO has and this time it's really bitten them in the ass. You put Linval next to Big Hank and it not only becomes a position of strength, they'd have one of the best DT tandems in the league. They would've manned the middle much like the Wiliams's in Minnesota awhile back. It would've been quite a task to run right at the middle of the D. Instead they have Kuhn, whose mere presence on the roster ranks alongside Amelia Earhart and Stonehenge as one of the worlds great mysteries, and Bromley, who has had a nice summer but who is still really an unknown.
If you had to rank the Giants worst roster management decisions over the last decade letting Linval walk for 12.5 guaranteed has got to be near or at the top of the list.
Absolutely correct. They let a proven player who they had developed leave because of a misguided belief that they could get by with journeyman at the other DT spot. This was done for an amount of money they could have afforded.
What a disaster.
So does that mean you're gonna disappear for the next several months and then come back to grace us with your presence when draft talk starts?
Joseph was a draft pick they let go that they should have held onto. Robinson and others were draft picks they held onto but should have let go.
I wonder if the decision was heavily influenced by Fewell who emphasised the secondary.
Considering how Coughlin likes to stop the run, we should have kept Tuck over Kiwanuka.
As far as Lineal goes,$31.25m over 5 years is decent for a good young DT. Sure we would have had to compromise elsewhere but we would have a very strong front, leaving our LBs free to make plays.
Could the Giants have afforded Joseph if they made him a priority? Sure. Would it have been a good idea? Possibly, although I didn't follow him closely in 2014.
But the most pertinent question to me is: where are the Giants spending the big bucks that causes them to feel constrained when it comes to a player like Joseph? And are they getting the bang for those big bucks that they should be getting?
Dollars are dollars whether they are free agent or retention. Giants have $50 million in 2015 cap devoted to Eli, JPP, Victor Cruz and Will Beatty. Even if they were all healthy, and as much as they are justifiably loved/liked/appreciated for past efforts, I don't think the 2015 versions of those players would be supplying the appropriate return.
Once a large portion of cap is devoted to a few players, management will feel constrained to spread the remaining cap funds. Mistakes are going to be made in that regard and it is entirely fair to criticize the mistakes. But it is the large dollar commitments that set the stage and are the most appropriate focus of the greatest scrutiny.
was it financial with Canty or some other way he impacted the decision on Linval?
Well said Eric. We have been putting money in the wrong places. Our D-Line would be a force with Linval, Hank and our DEs even without JPP. With JPP it could be one of the best in the league.
And that goes double when you keep hanging on to other draftees that have not demonstrated that they can play in the NFL.
What will sting this year is that if you have two very good DTs in the middle of your defense, it hides inadequacies at the two DE positions. We could really have really used that protective cover this season.
Would I like him here now? Why not, but at the time, there weren't too many broken up over his loss iirc
Both were on the team. No need to let Joseph walk ex let that Reese sucks. Somehow OBJ absolves 50 other shifty decisions
Would I like him here now? Why not, but at the time, there weren't too many broken up over his loss iirc
Welcome to BBI.
You had JPP vs LJ who do you pay at the start of the 2013 season. Then you had the we got to save money to extend Eli contract at the end of 2014. BTW, how did any of that work out?
Then those posts that criticized him because he was part of the Giants poor run defense years. The consensus was oh Hankins is going to take his spot; cap management; blah blah.
One other way to view the situation is that making a "resource allocation" decision as Reese did with LJ is what talent-laden championship teams do. In fact, when LJ was allowed to walk, the Giants talent base was in the midst of collapse. Teams in those situations don't make "resource allocation" decisions - if they have a good player on their squad, they make sure to keep him because there aren't any other players to pay.
So the LJ decision was made by a management team completely oblivious to what was happening to their team. I believe this disconnect from reality has been bridged and think Reese has gone back to doing good work leading this team, but the gap left by LJ walking is the result of a GM severely underperforming I'd say starting in 2010 when the obvious decay in the OL was disregarded to the 2012 draft to Several other misfires.
it's not bad drafting or bad FA acquisitions, it's both plus bad cap management.
it's why the bottom third of the roster is such a disaster.
Should have signed Martellus Bennett too to avoid Donnell and his fumbles .
Excellent post imo
hard to say why but the nosedive really began when we lost gettleman
The Giants are falling apart because they dont have Linval Joseph.. anymore than the Giant fell apart when they let Barry Cofield go..
Fuck met life stadium. It's done nothing but hurt this franchise since the moment they took a wrecking ball to the old house. Both the giants and jets have taken a financial beating the last few years, no thanks to the new stadium.
Aggravating.
His contract is as follows:
Runs through 2018 and guarantees him $12.5M, $12.0M of which was payable in 2014. So, his guaranteed money is just about paid as of the end of 2014.
In 2014. His salary was $12.0 with $6.6M Cap Number
In 2015, his salary is $4.5M with $4.6M Cap Number
In 2016, his salary is $$5.65 with $6.35M Cap Number
In 2017, his salary is $6.15M with $6.85M Cap Number
In 2018, his salary is $5.15M with $6.85M Cap Number
So, his guaranteed money is paid in full as of this year. His Cap Number in 2014 was $6.6M and in 2015 it's $4.6M.
IMO Reese could have restructured contracts, especially Eli's, to satisfy the $6.6M Cap Number in 2014 and the relatively low $4.6M Cap Number in 2015.
IMO there is no question but that we could have afforded LJ's contract.
Reese really blew it. As Sonny and Cher sing, "And the beat goes on"!!!
Plus we drafted Hankins, and we were good at either signing or drafting a DT, so no need to invest in Joseph. Plus the stuff I said above, and that was the type and posts on BBI then.
I take Hankins over LJ.
I think there are a lot more prudent hand-wringing issues with the draft and where we allocated FA cap dollars than this. Fine, be unhappy with Reese's inability to find LBers, be unhappy with Reese thinking he can build online on the cheap. Be unhappy that our drafts have not built out the core of this team.
But picking on this one FA departure is I think more a testament to the degree people are pissed off or upset than the merits of letting LJ go overall.
the bottom line at DT is it falls back to draft picks.
if Marvin Austin (2nd round pick) panned out you wouldn't be having this conversation. Because it would have been Cofield to Linval to Austin (instead of Hankins), but it's been the Giants MO for 10 years now, hit on a DT in the draft and let the proven one go.
If the Giants hit on the Bromley pick (and they still might) we wouldn't need to have this conversation. Teams are very selective about the players they sign to a 2nd contract.
Are these going to be the things we are talking about here one way or the other in three years? I don't know. It is sure feeling that way though.
If you have a franchise QB, you have to protect him. Signing OL was an absolute must last offseason. And that's what they did with Walton and Schwartz. They also signed a RB.
They just did not have the cap room to keep Linval unless they cut Rolle. So that was basically the choice: Linval or Rolle
And... you not only lose a good player but you spent twice as many draft picks on the position.
There is not a panacea here. It is not one move that is the issue. It is the conflation of them.
"All right, we're not doing this, gentlemen. We are *not* doing this. We're not going to go bouncing off the walls for ten minutes, 'cause we're just going to end up back here with the same problems!"
That is how I feel some of our threads here at BBI feel like as of late. There are dozens of things that got the team to where it is right now, many interconnected. I know bouncing off the walls is what we come here for (I guess) but that is what we are doing.
Of course, we wouldn't be in so much trouble in that regard if Reese had drafted Paea instead of Austin. Reese has been trying to find a penetrating DT for years. He signed Canty, took a wild gamble with a second round pick on Austin, and then surprised everyone by taking Bromley in the third.
You should. Because that's what bad teams do. They try to make up for bad drafts with free agents, but typically overspend in that regard. It rarely works. Look at the Redskins for years under Snyder.
Remember that we drafted Clint Sintim instead of Max Unger. So two years later, Reese overspends for Baas because we're desperate for a center. He also overspent for Beatty because he drafted David Wilson instead of Cordy Glenn.
The scrubs we consistently sign (3 players who stink on smaller deals) instead of these guys are just ridiculous.
Many on bbi gave the "we couldn't sign him he cost too much or some other blind faith loyalty crap.
It was a huge miss and we still suffer
Great job jerry
The defense of today is making pennies compared to the defense of 2010 or so. Back then you had tuck, canty and Osi getting paid now you have JPP just now coming off his rookie deal. Who else is getting paid on the DL? Uhh nobody. Moore, Wynn, selvie, Hankins, Bromley, all making peanuts. And even JPP is only now about to get paid, possibly. The LBs? Bargain basement rates there too outside of Beason and he was told to take a pay cut which he agreed to. Kennard- peanuts... Thomas and cassilas ok fine they are getting veteran deals but nothing crazy. And last but not least the secondary--- DRC is getting bank everyone else? Chump change. Remember 2010? You had rolle and Webster. Oh and we just cut our expensive punter for a kid making peanuts.
I'm not stupid I know this team is pinching pennies it's as clear as day. Mara even admitted the stadium took a bite out of their wallets, but this is getting ridiculous. They better improve this season and they better start adding some grade A beef to this roster instead of acting like the Jaguars and trying to build slow and steady. Love my Giants but I can't ignore this.
This is not about not spending money. This is about not making good picks so you have guys on very affordable contracts making huge impacts. This is about spending a lot of money trying to fill those holes and missing. This is not about saving money.
And what the hell has happened when a major portion of BBI wanted to give Reese and TC lifetime passes because of 07 and 11???
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FA pick ups to try and address those terrible drafts. So while the drafting has gotten better, the horrid FAs we got just made us worse along with the bad players we drafted in those years. I've never really thought of it in those terms before.
You should. Because that's what bad teams do. They try to make up for bad drafts with free agents, but typically overspend in that regard. It rarely works. Look at the Redskins for years under Snyder.
Remember that we drafted Clint Sintim instead of Max Unger. So two years later, Reese overspends for Baas because we're desperate for a center. He also overspent for Beatty because he drafted David Wilson instead of Cordy Glenn.
Slow up. We won a Superbowl with Baas starting at center. Therefore Baas was a good signing. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
I have faith that this team can do some good this year but if we had Joseph right now I'd feel much better. He was a safe reliable player. Hopefully Bromley and his lumpy calves can help the cause. Kuhn is Jim Burt without the productive values until proven otherwise.
This is a big 12-16 months for me. I'm a pretty level headed patient nyg fan I try and keep a perspective on things and let shit unfold before condemning the staff of team. I can accept the last 2 years but for me the clock is fucking ticking. It's time to kick ass again and field a team worthy of our attention. I want progress this year and assets devoted to the cause next offseason.
Keeping the cap in a good state is vital...so attempting to not overpaid is logical and wise. However KNOWING the draft is a crapshoot the value in keeping a young good player so you can continue to build and reuse upcoming drafts to refill the void is unwise. Then add in we are average drafters at best the system on how the team is maintained in to long-term is illogical. So couple poor draft and scrape heap FA style we utilize is not efficient nor effective for sustaining a viable team for a medium size window at competing for 'ships. Sometimes you have to pay a guy and paying a guy coming off his rookie contract that as met the criteria and goals you are looking for is better than saying we can save a few million and hope the next kid has the goods as well or that injured guy\underachiever guy\project guy is that lost diamond or reclamation project that will hit on. Yea it works from time to time but you'll never have longevity like that.
It would have made our D-line with JPP unstoppable.
Keeping the cap in a good state is vital...so attempting to not overpaid is logical and wise. However KNOWING the draft is a crapshoot the value in keeping a young good player so you can continue to build and not reuse upcoming drafts to refill the void is an unwise direction. Then add in we are average drafters at best. The system on how the team is maintained in to long-term is illogical. So couple in poor drafts and our scrape heap FA style we utilize is not efficient nor effective for sustaining a viable team for a medium size window when trying to competing for 'ships. Sometimes you have to pay a guy and paying a guy coming off his rookie contract that as met the criteria and goals you are looking for is better than saying we can save a few million and hope the next kid has the goods as well or that injured guy\underachiever guy\project guy is that lost diamond or reclamation project that will hit on. Yea it works from time to time but you'll never have longevity like that.
LJ wasn't a superstar, but he was under-rated by many fans. We had a much better run D with LJ. He and Hankins would have been a great pair of DTs.
LJ wasn't a superstar, but he was under-rated by many fans. We had a much better run D with LJ. He and Hankins would have been a great pair of DTs.
And the mind boggling thing is, if your DL is monster, then your LBs don't need to be that great. Its the way we won superbowls. Beason will never play a full season here. its rediculous by now.
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going to play Monday Morning QB for the next freaking 6 months?
I am when you let a second-round pick who was a very good player leave when his first contract is up and a huge void is left by his departure.
I think that is a conversation worth having.
When are the contracts up for Chris Mara, Jerry Reese, Kevin Abrams, Marc Ross and Ken Sternfeld, and any other friends/relatives of the owners. Wouldn't those be gaps that could be profitably filled?
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this team is a mess.....it's a shame really. I will be shocked if Dallas doesn't hang 45 on us Sunday night.
What a disaster.
So does that mean you're gonna disappear for the next several months and then come back to grace us with your presence when draft talk starts?
and who are you again?
It's a bitter lesson but every year we have to listen to posters complain "X is greedy", "X isn't worth it", "Draft choice draft choice."
Letting Joseph walk was stupid and we've been paying for it ever since.
LJ wasn't a superstar, but he was under-rated by many fans. We had a much better run D with LJ. He and Hankins would have been a great pair of DTs.
This is the most rational analysis on this thread. And it is actually kind of hard to refute. But Beason was credited with turning the defense around. I wonder how many here would have been in favor of letting Beason walk to sign Linval. In retrospect that would have been the right move. But would it have been perceived that way at the time?
The Giants run defense was top 10 in 2013, and it was not just because of Beason. In fact, it was mostly due to Joseph. The money overspent on spent on JD Walton ($3mm), Stevie Brown ($4mm) and Paysinger ($1.4mm) could easily have paid for L. Joseph.
All of those players could have been kept on the Giants roster if they got a fraction of what Reese paid them. No other team would have wanted them at those ridiculous salaries.
It was tough choice then because I am sure Reese was hoping he finally found a LB worth a damn, and we badly needed a corner.
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going to play Monday Morning QB for the next freaking 6 months?
I am when you let a second-round pick who was a very good player leave when his first contract is up and a huge void is left by his departure.
I think that is a conversation worth having.
+1 +1 +1 +1 +! !!!!!!!
What's on deck? Draft another DT in the 2nd Round next year to prepare for Hankins departure soon?
If it's between overpaying for a Joseph and going to war with rookies or vet min FAs vs. overpaying marginal vets and letting our own talented but not great guys walk, I choose the former.
A million here, a million there and pretty soon you're spending real money on these backup types when you could have spent the same on one or two bigger talent homegrown types (or heck, FAs).
Really bugs me.
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In comment 12458568 Bold Ruler said:
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FA pick ups to try and address those terrible drafts. So while the drafting has gotten better, the horrid FAs we got just made us worse along with the bad players we drafted in those years. I've never really thought of it in those terms before.
You should. Because that's what bad teams do. They try to make up for bad drafts with free agents, but typically overspend in that regard. It rarely works. Look at the Redskins for years under Snyder.
Remember that we drafted Clint Sintim instead of Max Unger. So two years later, Reese overspends for Baas because we're desperate for a center. He also overspent for Beatty because he drafted David Wilson instead of Cordy Glenn.
Slow up. We won a Superbowl with Baas starting at center. Therefore Baas was a good signing. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
Unger was highly rated guy and we took an3-4 LB. BAD. Baas wasn't a bad signing. His two restructured were horrible.
Reese sucks and his loyalists here always have some stupid excuse.
So here's one. Why the fuck haven't they extended Hankins whom all of you are lauding Reese for drafting. Can't wait for his next deal with some other team because that's Reese's general trend. The one guy he did re-up was Beatty who got 18 mil up front and the sucked. Then when he rose to mediocre all was forgiven but the Reese apologists. They fave him a deal that made him uncuttable for 3 years. At the time he got his deal it was a damn good one for a mediocre JAG.
Joseph's contract was front loaded but for a starting good to very good DT 12 mill bonus and 6 per year is resonable.
Excuses are fine. But in the end Reese the cap, the draft, and FA. Mara and Tiche would rather lose than upset their precious model of stability.
That said, I'm going to talk out of both sides of my mouth and say that an organization with a spotty 5 year draft history, should be re-signing one of the few the guys they hit with.
First off, ripping down the old stadium was a travesty and while I hate to bring "morality" into it , it was morally wrong - particuarly in a country where the infrastructure is falling apart.
But how could the stadium have impacted so much financially.? Other people put up stadiums alone and here the costs were split. Then didn't the outrageous sale of a licence to buy a ticket recoup alot of the costs.?
It is easy to make assertions here, I wonder what really went on.
The defense of today is making pennies compared to the defense of 2010 or so. Back then you had tuck, canty and Osi getting paid now you have JPP just now coming off his rookie deal. Who else is getting paid on the DL? Uhh nobody. Moore, Wynn, selvie, Hankins, Bromley, all making peanuts. And even JPP is only now about to get paid, possibly. The LBs? Bargain basement rates there too outside of Beason and he was told to take a pay cut which he agreed to. Kennard- peanuts... Thomas and cassilas ok fine they are getting veteran deals but nothing crazy. And last but not least the secondary--- DRC is getting bank everyone else? Chump change. Remember 2010? You had rolle and Webster. Oh and we just cut our expensive punter for a kid making peanuts.
I'm not stupid I know this team is pinching pennies it's as clear as day. Mara even admitted the stadium took a bite out of their wallets, but this is getting ridiculous. They better improve this season and they better start adding some grade A beef to this roster instead of acting like the Jaguars and trying to build slow and steady. Love my Giants but I can't ignore this.
Interesting about the penny pinching. I also think they decided to spend more on the "skilled" positions, leaving them leftover bums for the OL, linebacker, etc.
Looking at the production and the numbers it just doesnt make sense. Plus for those people saying we would not have drafted Hankins thats not true. We drafted Hankins while LJ was on the roster. I would hope that the people that make the decision werent so short sighted thinking that Hankins was the better player (which he is) and just let LJ walk without thinking we could have 2 dominant guys plugging the middle.
The Giants dont usually let good players in their prime leave without making a push to keep them. LJ seems to be one they barely attempted to keep from what I read. I am sure if we signed him to a nice contract people would complain he is not living up to the money.
Because he's a top tier player and to me it makes sense to extend a porential star's deal to manage the cap and lock in the guys you do hit on.
If he has an great year will he want to extend next year? Sure for top dollar. Why not extend on a deal that both can live w a year earlier. Is Bromley so assured of success that we will replay the Joseph scenario and have this same discussion a d replace the names?
Reese doesn't manage the cap. It manages him.
Yup - and they clearly try to keep the DE while allowing the DT to walk. Meanwhile, they keep shuffling free agents in and out with many getting starts. I don't understand why they don't keep those rare DT they develop rather than continually using high draft picks on a position which should be set.
2-Traded a #1 for Craig Morton
3-Let Hostetler walk and endure Dave Brown
4-Cut McCaffrey(though I was for it at the time)
5-Trade Rosy Grier for John LoVatere(sp)
6-Traded Don Chandler to the Packers
7-Cut Olindo Mare and Matt Stover
8-Let Cofield go
And so on and so forth..Again, as some have opined above, AT THE TIME, we were up against the cap, most of us were worried we wouldn't have money to re-sign Cruz, Nicks and JPP..
Anyone have a link to the thread when LinJo signed with the Vikes and even threads leading up to his walking? I clicked on Archives and the corner forum keeps coming up..I'd love to see who really was disturbed when LinJo signed elsewhere..
Love retrospection..:)
Anyone have a link to the thread when LinJo signed with the Vikes and even threads leading up to his walking? I clicked on Archives and the corner forum keeps coming up..I'd love to see who really was disturbed when LinJo signed elsewhere..
Love retrospection..:)
About 90% of the board wanted to keep him.
Hopefully they have learned from this. Linval Joseph did not demand crazy money as JPP does.
I don't understand. Austin was already off the team long before Joseph left. Austin got cut in 2012. His flopping was all the more reason that Joseph should have been extended.
It's a bitter lesson but every year we have to listen to posters complain "X is greedy", "X isn't worth it", "Draft choice draft choice."
Letting Joseph walk was stupid and we've been paying for it ever since.
I totally agree.
Baas got hurt. He had played I believe 60 straight games for SF and then got hurt as soon as the ink dried with the Giants. When he was healthy he played well
Sintim was a shitty pick but they were never going to draft Unger
^^^
Plus we drafted Hankins, and we were good at either signing or drafting a DT, so no need to invest in Joseph. Plus the stuff I said above, and that was the type and posts on BBI then.
Correct. The Giants have had a lot of success with get DT signings and drafting them. They do not seem to value as a position to sink major resources into. They'll typically sign a mid-range guy whether it was Robbins or Jenkins and pair them with a young player like Coefield/Alford, LinJo, and now Hankins. Canty being an exception.
They prefer to spend more $ and higher (1st rd picks) on WR, DE, CB and S. Even OL they've used top resources on. It's also unfair to say they are unwilling to spend $, when they had every intention to bring in McCourty this offseason. They would've preferred to allocate big $ at that spot and fill in around Hankins with later found picks or a cheaper signing. They just were unable to reel him in, and there was no one else available worth spending big $ on. People would feel very different about this defense with McCourty and JPP - nevermind LinJo. Whether they still also draft Collins, or used that 2nd rd pick on another position (maybe DT), the team (and D) would be much much better.
Steelers shouldn't have cut John Unitas.
The value we get out of DRC/Prince will be neutralized and the Safeties/LBs will be biting on play action all season.
Yes, if the money was there, I would gladly have kept LJ. But it wasn't.
I think losing Marcellus Bennett was a bigger loss.
+1 - it's amazing how often the Giants allocate 2nd or 3rd rounders on the same position. If they just kept a guy they hit on they could use those picks on other positions. Do they draft Hankins future replacement with another #2 pick next year?
you go do the research and prove yourself correct. It's your theory not mine. I know practically everybody wanted to keep him.
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can be brought up and it show's you're correct, I'll gladly retract that BS statement
you go do the research and prove yourself correct. It's your theory not mine. I know practically everybody wanted to keep him.
:)
Giants2012 : 2/22/2014 2:10 pm : link
and it's not close IMO.
Linval Joseph or Jon Beason - who is more valuable? - ( New Window )