we spend millions instead on Schwartz ($17 million), Walton ($5 million), Demps ($1 million), Thurmond ($3 million), McClain ($4.1 million), Paysinger ($1.4 million), Hillis ($1.8 million), Patterson ($900,000), Beason ($17 million), Stevie Brown ($3 million), Robert Ayers ($4 million)...not to mention John Jerry, Charlie Brown, Mario Manningham, Trindon Holliday, Josh Freeman, Rusty Smith, Adam Snyder, etc.?
Well said Eric. We have been putting money in the wrong places. Our D-Line would be a force with Linval, Hank and our DEs even without JPP. With JPP it could be one of the best in the league.
I have made the point in the past that you can't build and improve a roster if you are constantly letting successful draftees walk, especially if you keep sign other team's rejects to replace them.
And that goes double when you keep hanging on to other draftees that have not demonstrated that they can play in the NFL.
Letting Joseph go was full on incompetence and one of Reese's biggest mistakes as a GM. J rud has put the case for retaining Joseph very well in this thread.
What will sting this year is that if you have two very good DTs in the middle of your defense, it hides inadequacies at the two DE positions. We could really have really used that protective cover this season.
Some on this thread have been consistent; that is they bemoaned the loss of LinJo..A goodly amount on here, myself included were fine with it AT THE TIME..Hankins was drafted, thought to be very similar in technique and many thought had a bigger upside than LinJo...
Would I like him here now? Why not, but at the time, there weren't too many broken up over his loss iirc
I think a huge part of the BBI sentiment right now is driven by the fact that JPP and Beatty are MIA. If those two guys -- even overpaid -- were healthy, we'd feel a lot better about our chances in the NFC East.
if Linval Joseph and Martellus Bennett were here. They'd elevate both units significantly. Instead, we spend irresponsibly on other teams' cast-offs and wind up wasting precious draft picks on potential replacements. It's really sad what's come of this roster in such a short amount of time.
Some on this thread have been consistent; that is they bemoaned the loss of LinJo..A goodly amount on here, myself included were fine with it AT THE TIME..Hankins was drafted, thought to be very similar in technique and many thought had a bigger upside than LinJo...
Would I like him here now? Why not, but at the time, there weren't too many broken up over his loss iirc
Welcome to BBI.
You had JPP vs LJ who do you pay at the start of the 2013 season. Then you had the we got to save money to extend Eli contract at the end of 2014. BTW, how did any of that work out?
Then those posts that criticized him because he was part of the Giants poor run defense years. The consensus was oh Hankins is going to take his spot; cap management; blah blah.
They should have signed him to an ext. after week 1 when it was clear as day he was a player. They should have had him and then made a strong move for his brother as BBI poster KWALL explained back in 2013.
not resigning Joseph was an obvious error as it transpired, at least to me. This isn't MMQBing.
One other way to view the situation is that making a "resource allocation" decision as Reese did with LJ is what talent-laden championship teams do. In fact, when LJ was allowed to walk, the Giants talent base was in the midst of collapse. Teams in those situations don't make "resource allocation" decisions - if they have a good player on their squad, they make sure to keep him because there aren't any other players to pay.
So the LJ decision was made by a management team completely oblivious to what was happening to their team. I believe this disconnect from reality has been bridged and think Reese has gone back to doing good work leading this team, but the gap left by LJ walking is the result of a GM severely underperforming I'd say starting in 2010 when the obvious decay in the OL was disregarded to the 2012 draft to Several other misfires.
is that we shelved LJ for his rookie year, and spent time developing him only to let him walk away. I understand rosters turnover, but you cannot let first and second rounders walk unless they are dogs.
if they let LJ walk knowing that Eli, JPP and Nicks were looking to cash in. I think if Jerry had a crystal ball, and knew JPP would blow up his hand, and that Hakeem's body would fail on him, he would have kept LJ.
if they let LJ walk knowing that Eli, JPP and Nicks were looking to cash in. I think if Jerry had a crystal ball, and knew JPP would blow up his hand, and that Hakeem's body would fail on him, he would have kept LJ.
They should have signed him to an ext. after week 1 when it was clear as day he was a player. They should have had him and then made a strong move for his brother as BBI poster KWALL explained back in 2013.
I said that the day he signed with Chicago, and I've been saying it ever since. Letting Bennett walk was Reese's biggest blunder. It cost the Giants the playoffs in 2013. Yeah, I know they started 0-6, but they would have started 3-3 and made the playoffs.
would have been an overpaid run stuffer and unfortunately we forget that the Giants were also well aware that in the long term (not that far down the road actually) They would have had to pay Cruz, Prince, Eli and JPP..
The Giants are falling apart because they dont have Linval Joseph.. anymore than the Giant fell apart when they let Barry Cofield go..
and posted many times the same thing. This front office sucks and should be cleaned out. They do not have a clue. Bad drafts, bad FA pick ups and releases. Turned a super bowl winner with a hall of fame HC and QB into cellar dwellers with their incompetence. Yet they are still here and lots of good people are gone ???
All I know is the Giants are not spending that much money lately, relatively speaking that is. They are near the bottom in total money spent over the last few years. Forget the cap there are ways to circumvent that shit.
Fuck met life stadium. It's done nothing but hurt this franchise since the moment they took a wrecking ball to the old house. Both the giants and jets have taken a financial beating the last few years, no thanks to the new stadium.
48 tackles, 3 sacks and 1 pass defensed. That's about what he averaged per season with the Giants.
His contract is as follows:
Runs through 2018 and guarantees him $12.5M, $12.0M of which was payable in 2014. So, his guaranteed money is just about paid as of the end of 2014.
In 2014. His salary was $12.0 with $6.6M Cap Number
In 2015, his salary is $4.5M with $4.6M Cap Number
In 2016, his salary is $$5.65 with $6.35M Cap Number
In 2017, his salary is $6.15M with $6.85M Cap Number
In 2018, his salary is $5.15M with $6.85M Cap Number
So, his guaranteed money is paid in full as of this year. His Cap Number in 2014 was $6.6M and in 2015 it's $4.6M.
IMO Reese could have restructured contracts, especially Eli's, to satisfy the $6.6M Cap Number in 2014 and the relatively low $4.6M Cap Number in 2015.
IMO there is no question but that we could have afforded LJ's contract.
Reese really blew it. As Sonny and Cher sing, "And the beat goes on"!!!
was we need to re-sign Nicks, Cruz, and then JPP on the horizon. So we can't re-sign Joseph or Bennett.
Plus we drafted Hankins, and we were good at either signing or drafting a DT, so no need to invest in Joseph. Plus the stuff I said above, and that was the type and posts on BBI then.
quarterbacking. Sorry. The Vikes paid a pretty big guaranteed contract to LJ and most on this board at that time understood that the Giants were cap constrained and couldn't pay him that. In hindsight, I guess you can question it. But if you are then you have to think about the butterfly effect, and we probably do not have Hankins on the team.
I take Hankins over LJ.
I think there are a lot more prudent hand-wringing issues with the draft and where we allocated FA cap dollars than this. Fine, be unhappy with Reese's inability to find LBers, be unhappy with Reese thinking he can build online on the cheap. Be unhappy that our drafts have not built out the core of this team.
But picking on this one FA departure is I think more a testament to the degree people are pissed off or upset than the merits of letting LJ go overall.
We keep spinning our wheels in the dirt. Can't move forward when you have to keep replacing starters. Not only have Reese's drafts suck his decision-making on who to keep and let go has been atrocious.
about Bennett. 5M guaranteed (4 yrs 20M), that was a no-brainer.
the bottom line at DT is it falls back to draft picks.
if Marvin Austin (2nd round pick) panned out you wouldn't be having this conversation. Because it would have been Cofield to Linval to Austin (instead of Hankins), but it's been the Giants MO for 10 years now, hit on a DT in the draft and let the proven one go.
If the Giants hit on the Bromley pick (and they still might) we wouldn't need to have this conversation. Teams are very selective about the players they sign to a 2nd contract.
the things you do are just as important for the franchise as the things you don't so. Dropping a NFL QB high contract on Eli if we are going to majority rebuild or dropping $15M on JPP who is arguably not a leader you build around in the first place and now is missing fingers are potentially two moves you do not make.
Are these going to be the things we are talking about here one way or the other in three years? I don't know. It is sure feeling that way though.
They finished 28th in offense, despite having a franchise QB and a solid receiving corps because Eli had no time.
If you have a franchise QB, you have to protect him. Signing OL was an absolute must last offseason. And that's what they did with Walton and Schwartz. They also signed a RB.
They just did not have the cap room to keep Linval unless they cut Rolle. So that was basically the choice: Linval or Rolle
we deployed $$$ to DRC to fill major hole at CB which btw, our depth still sucks at. I would say we are better at DT than CB and that is because we are think everywhere. I would feel not much better about things with LJ on the current roster, what do we don't have the Kuhn debate. BFD.
There is not a panacea here. It is not one move that is the issue. It is the conflation of them.
Brown, Walton, and Jerry are utter garbage. Walton played on roller skates. Reynolds wouldn't have been worse. Schwartz they got unlucky with, but even before he got hurt, he didn't look worth the money.
We had years of horrid drafts and we shifted to years of horrid
FA pick ups to try and address those terrible drafts. So while the drafting has gotten better, the horrid FAs we got just made us worse along with the bad players we drafted in those years. I've never really thought of it in those terms before.
Minions are running this organization into the ground. And its not over. The Eli mess is developing behind the scenes and will hang over this disaster of a season and turn real ugly as the loses mount. But hey Johnny has some PSL money left and will hang onto it for dear life while subjecting the suckers who fell for his scheme to a third rate performance.
the scene where they are freaking losing it and going to kill each other in the capsule, when Jim Lovell says:
"All right, we're not doing this, gentlemen. We are *not* doing this. We're not going to go bouncing off the walls for ten minutes, 'cause we're just going to end up back here with the same problems!"
That is how I feel some of our threads here at BBI feel like as of late. There are dozens of things that got the team to where it is right now, many interconnected. I know bouncing off the walls is what we come here for (I guess) but that is what we are doing.
admitting I was wrong. At the time, I thought we had to let Joseph go because of the size of the contract he got from Minnesota, and the other players we had to resign. I underestimated his worth to the team, specifically how he could help control the LOS on one side of the ball. He was a lane clogger who had shown some penetrating ability, and paired with another DT like Hankins, would make our DEs much more effective.
Of course, we wouldn't be in so much trouble in that regard if Reese had drafted Paea instead of Austin. Reese has been trying to find a penetrating DT for years. He signed Canty, took a wild gamble with a second round pick on Austin, and then surprised everyone by taking Bromley in the third.
RE: We had years of horrid drafts and we shifted to years of horrid
FA pick ups to try and address those terrible drafts. So while the drafting has gotten better, the horrid FAs we got just made us worse along with the bad players we drafted in those years. I've never really thought of it in those terms before.
You should. Because that's what bad teams do. They try to make up for bad drafts with free agents, but typically overspend in that regard. It rarely works. Look at the Redskins for years under Snyder.
Remember that we drafted Clint Sintim instead of Max Unger. So two years later, Reese overspends for Baas because we're desperate for a center. He also overspent for Beatty because he drafted David Wilson instead of Cordy Glenn.
I feel similar about Marty Bennett- but Joseph even more so- the minute we let him go out run d went to shit and we lost toughness up the middle.
The scrubs we consistently sign (3 players who stink on smaller deals) instead of these guys are just ridiculous.
Many on bbi gave the "we couldn't sign him he cost too much or some other blind faith loyalty crap.
It was a huge miss and we still suffer
Great job jerry
The Giants need to spend more money. In the mid 2000s I think They had a lot more guys making big bucks than this current team does. Think about the OL in say 2010 compared to now. You had every starting player on his second contract making big bux. Now you have Beatty and Schwartz and Schwartz isn't even that highly paid compared to a guy like Snee or Mckenzie. Richburg and Pugh and flowers make pennies compared to the 2010 line. The Wrs of today not much different from the late 2000s. The RBs are about the same. Eli is about the same.
The defense of today is making pennies compared to the defense of 2010 or so. Back then you had tuck, canty and Osi getting paid now you have JPP just now coming off his rookie deal. Who else is getting paid on the DL? Uhh nobody. Moore, Wynn, selvie, Hankins, Bromley, all making peanuts. And even JPP is only now about to get paid, possibly. The LBs? Bargain basement rates there too outside of Beason and he was told to take a pay cut which he agreed to. Kennard- peanuts... Thomas and cassilas ok fine they are getting veteran deals but nothing crazy. And last but not least the secondary--- DRC is getting bank everyone else? Chump change. Remember 2010? You had rolle and Webster. Oh and we just cut our expensive punter for a kid making peanuts.
I'm not stupid I know this team is pinching pennies it's as clear as day. Mara even admitted the stadium took a bite out of their wallets, but this is getting ridiculous. They better improve this season and they better start adding some grade A beef to this roster instead of acting like the Jaguars and trying to build slow and steady. Love my Giants but I can't ignore this.
now the Giants are pinching pennies? This is the first year I can remember that they are sitting on cap room. In fact, it was even over the last couple years we were expressing concern that we were too top heavy. We are paying ELi a darn truckload. That makes a huge difference, that and betting on the wrong guys.
This is not about not spending money. This is about not making good picks so you have guys on very affordable contracts making huge impacts. This is about spending a lot of money trying to fill those holes and missing. This is not about saving money.
And what the hell has happened when a major portion of BBI wanted to give Reese and TC lifetime passes because of 07 and 11???
RE: RE: We had years of horrid drafts and we shifted to years of horrid
FA pick ups to try and address those terrible drafts. So while the drafting has gotten better, the horrid FAs we got just made us worse along with the bad players we drafted in those years. I've never really thought of it in those terms before.
You should. Because that's what bad teams do. They try to make up for bad drafts with free agents, but typically overspend in that regard. It rarely works. Look at the Redskins for years under Snyder.
Remember that we drafted Clint Sintim instead of Max Unger. So two years later, Reese overspends for Baas because we're desperate for a center. He also overspent for Beatty because he drafted David Wilson instead of Cordy Glenn.
Slow up. We won a Superbowl with Baas starting at center. Therefore Baas was a good signing. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
I wasn't happy with letting him walk as I liked bringing in DRC but I also believed they would devote more resources to the DL other than signing a bunch of walk ons and mid round picks.
I have faith that this team can do some good this year but if we had Joseph right now I'd feel much better. He was a safe reliable player. Hopefully Bromley and his lumpy calves can help the cause. Kuhn is Jim Burt without the productive values until proven otherwise.
was it financial with Canty or some other way he impacted the decision on Linval?
Well said Eric. We have been putting money in the wrong places. Our D-Line would be a force with Linval, Hank and our DEs even without JPP. With JPP it could be one of the best in the league.
And that goes double when you keep hanging on to other draftees that have not demonstrated that they can play in the NFL.
What will sting this year is that if you have two very good DTs in the middle of your defense, it hides inadequacies at the two DE positions. We could really have really used that protective cover this season.
Would I like him here now? Why not, but at the time, there weren't too many broken up over his loss iirc
Both were on the team. No need to let Joseph walk ex let that Reese sucks. Somehow OBJ absolves 50 other shifty decisions
Would I like him here now? Why not, but at the time, there weren't too many broken up over his loss iirc
Welcome to BBI.
You had JPP vs LJ who do you pay at the start of the 2013 season. Then you had the we got to save money to extend Eli contract at the end of 2014. BTW, how did any of that work out?
Then those posts that criticized him because he was part of the Giants poor run defense years. The consensus was oh Hankins is going to take his spot; cap management; blah blah.
One other way to view the situation is that making a "resource allocation" decision as Reese did with LJ is what talent-laden championship teams do. In fact, when LJ was allowed to walk, the Giants talent base was in the midst of collapse. Teams in those situations don't make "resource allocation" decisions - if they have a good player on their squad, they make sure to keep him because there aren't any other players to pay.
So the LJ decision was made by a management team completely oblivious to what was happening to their team. I believe this disconnect from reality has been bridged and think Reese has gone back to doing good work leading this team, but the gap left by LJ walking is the result of a GM severely underperforming I'd say starting in 2010 when the obvious decay in the OL was disregarded to the 2012 draft to Several other misfires.
it's not bad drafting or bad FA acquisitions, it's both plus bad cap management.
it's why the bottom third of the roster is such a disaster.
Should have signed Martellus Bennett too to avoid Donnell and his fumbles .
Excellent post imo
hard to say why but the nosedive really began when we lost gettleman
The Giants are falling apart because they dont have Linval Joseph.. anymore than the Giant fell apart when they let Barry Cofield go..
Fuck met life stadium. It's done nothing but hurt this franchise since the moment they took a wrecking ball to the old house. Both the giants and jets have taken a financial beating the last few years, no thanks to the new stadium.
Aggravating.
His contract is as follows:
Runs through 2018 and guarantees him $12.5M, $12.0M of which was payable in 2014. So, his guaranteed money is just about paid as of the end of 2014.
In 2014. His salary was $12.0 with $6.6M Cap Number
In 2015, his salary is $4.5M with $4.6M Cap Number
In 2016, his salary is $$5.65 with $6.35M Cap Number
In 2017, his salary is $6.15M with $6.85M Cap Number
In 2018, his salary is $5.15M with $6.85M Cap Number
So, his guaranteed money is paid in full as of this year. His Cap Number in 2014 was $6.6M and in 2015 it's $4.6M.
IMO Reese could have restructured contracts, especially Eli's, to satisfy the $6.6M Cap Number in 2014 and the relatively low $4.6M Cap Number in 2015.
IMO there is no question but that we could have afforded LJ's contract.
Reese really blew it. As Sonny and Cher sing, "And the beat goes on"!!!
Plus we drafted Hankins, and we were good at either signing or drafting a DT, so no need to invest in Joseph. Plus the stuff I said above, and that was the type and posts on BBI then.
I take Hankins over LJ.
I think there are a lot more prudent hand-wringing issues with the draft and where we allocated FA cap dollars than this. Fine, be unhappy with Reese's inability to find LBers, be unhappy with Reese thinking he can build online on the cheap. Be unhappy that our drafts have not built out the core of this team.
But picking on this one FA departure is I think more a testament to the degree people are pissed off or upset than the merits of letting LJ go overall.
the bottom line at DT is it falls back to draft picks.
if Marvin Austin (2nd round pick) panned out you wouldn't be having this conversation. Because it would have been Cofield to Linval to Austin (instead of Hankins), but it's been the Giants MO for 10 years now, hit on a DT in the draft and let the proven one go.
If the Giants hit on the Bromley pick (and they still might) we wouldn't need to have this conversation. Teams are very selective about the players they sign to a 2nd contract.
Are these going to be the things we are talking about here one way or the other in three years? I don't know. It is sure feeling that way though.
If you have a franchise QB, you have to protect him. Signing OL was an absolute must last offseason. And that's what they did with Walton and Schwartz. They also signed a RB.
They just did not have the cap room to keep Linval unless they cut Rolle. So that was basically the choice: Linval or Rolle
And... you not only lose a good player but you spent twice as many draft picks on the position.
There is not a panacea here. It is not one move that is the issue. It is the conflation of them.
"All right, we're not doing this, gentlemen. We are *not* doing this. We're not going to go bouncing off the walls for ten minutes, 'cause we're just going to end up back here with the same problems!"
That is how I feel some of our threads here at BBI feel like as of late. There are dozens of things that got the team to where it is right now, many interconnected. I know bouncing off the walls is what we come here for (I guess) but that is what we are doing.
Of course, we wouldn't be in so much trouble in that regard if Reese had drafted Paea instead of Austin. Reese has been trying to find a penetrating DT for years. He signed Canty, took a wild gamble with a second round pick on Austin, and then surprised everyone by taking Bromley in the third.
You should. Because that's what bad teams do. They try to make up for bad drafts with free agents, but typically overspend in that regard. It rarely works. Look at the Redskins for years under Snyder.
Remember that we drafted Clint Sintim instead of Max Unger. So two years later, Reese overspends for Baas because we're desperate for a center. He also overspent for Beatty because he drafted David Wilson instead of Cordy Glenn.
The scrubs we consistently sign (3 players who stink on smaller deals) instead of these guys are just ridiculous.
Many on bbi gave the "we couldn't sign him he cost too much or some other blind faith loyalty crap.
It was a huge miss and we still suffer
Great job jerry
The defense of today is making pennies compared to the defense of 2010 or so. Back then you had tuck, canty and Osi getting paid now you have JPP just now coming off his rookie deal. Who else is getting paid on the DL? Uhh nobody. Moore, Wynn, selvie, Hankins, Bromley, all making peanuts. And even JPP is only now about to get paid, possibly. The LBs? Bargain basement rates there too outside of Beason and he was told to take a pay cut which he agreed to. Kennard- peanuts... Thomas and cassilas ok fine they are getting veteran deals but nothing crazy. And last but not least the secondary--- DRC is getting bank everyone else? Chump change. Remember 2010? You had rolle and Webster. Oh and we just cut our expensive punter for a kid making peanuts.
I'm not stupid I know this team is pinching pennies it's as clear as day. Mara even admitted the stadium took a bite out of their wallets, but this is getting ridiculous. They better improve this season and they better start adding some grade A beef to this roster instead of acting like the Jaguars and trying to build slow and steady. Love my Giants but I can't ignore this.
This is not about not spending money. This is about not making good picks so you have guys on very affordable contracts making huge impacts. This is about spending a lot of money trying to fill those holes and missing. This is not about saving money.
And what the hell has happened when a major portion of BBI wanted to give Reese and TC lifetime passes because of 07 and 11???
Quote:
FA pick ups to try and address those terrible drafts. So while the drafting has gotten better, the horrid FAs we got just made us worse along with the bad players we drafted in those years. I've never really thought of it in those terms before.
You should. Because that's what bad teams do. They try to make up for bad drafts with free agents, but typically overspend in that regard. It rarely works. Look at the Redskins for years under Snyder.
Remember that we drafted Clint Sintim instead of Max Unger. So two years later, Reese overspends for Baas because we're desperate for a center. He also overspent for Beatty because he drafted David Wilson instead of Cordy Glenn.
Slow up. We won a Superbowl with Baas starting at center. Therefore Baas was a good signing. Don't miss the forest for the trees.
I have faith that this team can do some good this year but if we had Joseph right now I'd feel much better. He was a safe reliable player. Hopefully Bromley and his lumpy calves can help the cause. Kuhn is Jim Burt without the productive values until proven otherwise.