God, I now Reese has done a very questionable job rebuilding but is this team really that devoid of talent? They are a lot younger of a team overall then they have been in years and maybe just maybe those no names become big time names as they continue to develop.
For years you heard down in Dallas they needed to draft on the offensive line and now that they have committed to that they have a very good one. I see the same thing happening with the Giants. The left side of Flowers, and Pugh and Richburg at center that's a young group who should get better. The right side needs someone to step up.
On defense we all know about Kennard. A steal last year in the fifth round and he will be a force. Maybe this will be Moore's break out year. And the kid from UCLA looks to be someone to keep an eye on. The cornerbacks aren't exactly chopped liver and there is depth there and the linebacking overall is better then last year.The safety position is a big concern. However, Collins if he stays healthy should only Get better with time.
Maybe I'm being overly optimistic but hell, I'm a diehard and look at how the Cowboy defense last year was called one of the worst ever by all the experts and they played a lot better then anyone thought they would. All I'm saying is you just never know. The Giants are young, have a lot of speed and maybe things click and they make a playoff run. You listen to the experts they don't give them much hope. What else is new.
A defense's best friend is a healthy running game.
If we can run the ball this year, I am sure that will help our defense.
we will soon see... In the second game we played Dallas a lot closer last year.
I am expecting a real close nail biter Sunday night...
I may be wrong and I have never been to training camp but it always seems as though this team is unprepared by the time the season starts. More like an new expansion team than an established team. Part of it is the coordinator carousel that we see and part of it is the crappy drafting that requires a ton of mid to low level free agents being brought in every year in an attempt to fill out the roster. I can't remember a season with so much activity and player signing following final cuts. We are picking off of the scrap heap this year trying to find help after final cuts that it certainly doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.
On D - solid corners, a young, promising safety, a very solid player in Hankins and some potential with Bromley. Maybe here we're talking 15-20 range, but still enough to qualify as 'not THAT bad'.
The problem it seems is that every 2-3 years, we lose a player unexpectedly. Steve Smith to a knee. Don't resign Boss due to concussions. Kenny Phillips to a knee, Hakeem Nicks to compartment syndrome, Chad Jones to an accident, Cruz tears an ACL and JPP blows his fingers off.
Combine that with a few bad drafts and a couple of missed FA acquisitions, and you're where we are - the 15-20 range of the NFL.
This. Something isn't right with the organization and they've tried just about everything over the last 3 years to fix it. The only thing they haven't done is what seems to be the obvious solution is a total housecleaning/regime change.
If all the starters are healthy this could be a very competitive team.
And as to D the Cowboys DL will be Lawrence, Hayden, Crawford and Mincy. How is anyone impressed with those players. Their LBs, Wilber, Hitchens and Lee. Wow, that's awesome, right? CB Carr and Claiborne. Safety Church and Wilcox. And this is a D that FO ranked 22nd in both rum and pass defense last year. Folks here really look at this group and think that's great talent?
Maybe we lose by 50, I don't know. But I'm not awed by this lineup. Can someone yell me why I should be?
And as to D the Cowboys DL will be Lawrence, Hayden, Crawford and Mincy. How is anyone impressed with those players. Their LBs, Wilber, Hitchens and Lee. Wow, that's awesome, right? CB Carr and Claiborne. Safety Church and Wilcox. And this is a D that FO ranked 22nd in both rum and pass defense last year. Folks here really look at this group and think that's great talent?
Maybe we lose by 50, I don't know. But I'm not awed by this lineup. Can someone yell me why I should be?
We're going to lose because of the stark differences between the OL's. Our OL isn't going to be a finished product until next season at the earliest when you'd hope our FO brings in the long term answers at RG and RT. As for Sunday-which OL is a surer bet to provide protection for the QB AND open up doorway sized running lanes for the RB's? Their DL might not resemble the Doomsday defense but they might look like it Sunday night. Our DL has no chance vs their OL. None.
We're going to lose because of the stark differences between the OL's. Our OL isn't going to be a finished product until next season at the earliest when you'd hope our FO brings in the long term answers at RG and RT. As for Sunday-which OL is a surer bet to provide protection for the QB AND open up doorway sized running lanes for the RB's? Their DL might not resemble the Doomsday defense but they might look like it Sunday night. Our DL has no chance vs their OL. None.
Ok. I said that on another thread. The Cowboys OL is going to win this game single handed. I don't buy it but I think you're right that's the difference and really the only difference.
BTW, how are the Cowboys, one of the worst pass rushing teams in the league, going to tale advantage of our OL. Who am I scared of rushing Eli. We have far better pass rushers and their OL isn't better than average as pass protectors.
However, the Giants could surprise everybody (and it would be a surprise) and win with a turnover or two.
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We're going to lose because of the stark differences between the OL's. Our OL isn't going to be a finished product until next season at the earliest when you'd hope our FO brings in the long term answers at RG and RT. As for Sunday-which OL is a surer bet to provide protection for the QB AND open up doorway sized running lanes for the RB's? Their DL might not resemble the Doomsday defense but they might look like it Sunday night. Our DL has no chance vs their OL. None.
Ok. I said that on another thread. The Cowboys OL is going to win this game single handed. I don't buy it but I think you're right that's the difference and really the only difference.
BTW, how are the Cowboys, one of the worst pass rushing teams in the league, going to tale advantage of our OL. Who am I scared of rushing Eli. We have far better pass rushers and their OL isn't better than average as pass protectors.
Are you certain we have better pass rushers? I don't believe that. Without JPP, who has given Tyron Smith fits at times, I think our DE's (Moore, Ayers, miscasted Jenkins, Wynn, Odi) are going to get stoned by their OT's leaving our DT's (Kuhn included) to have to get pressure up the middle on Romo vs their interior. Like I said, we have no chance. We have a shaky right side of the OL and 3 guys at LT/LG/C (including a rookie at the most important position) playing their 1st games at those spots. Sorry, but advantage Dallas.
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In comment 12468273 The_Boss said:
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Are you certain we have better pass rushers? I don't believe that. Without JPP, who has given Tyron Smith fits at times, I think our DE's (Moore, Ayers, miscasted Jenkins, Wynn, Odi) are going to get stoned by their OT's leaving our DT's (Kuhn included) to have to get pressure up the middle on Romo vs their interior. Like I said, we have no chance. We have a shaky right side of the OL and 3 guys at LT/LG/C (including a rookie at the most important position) playing their 1st games at those spots. Sorry, but advantage Dallas.
Ok. Don't like our pass rushers. Who do the Cowboys have that's better. (this is a comparison thread)
I envision lots of open receivers and chunks of yardage on wide runs by good opponents. Who do we have on defense to both hold the edge and rush the passer? Who do we have to handle deep routs? Part of the latter isn't really anyone's fault, just too many injuries at a single position which leaves the talent weak and thin.
I'm not as worried about the OL, but wish we had a TE who could block a little. I also await the return of Cruz.
I envision lots of open receivers and chunks of yardage on wide runs by good opponents. Who do we have on defense to both hold the edge and rush the passer? Who do we have to handle deep routs? Part of the latter isn't really anyone's fault, just too many injuries at a single position which leaves the talent weak and thin.
I'm not as worried about the OL, but wish we had a TE who could block a little. I also await the return of Cruz.
Well said MG. But if the Cowboys aren't that good a team, who on our schedule is? The Falcons, Buffalo, SF, Minnesota, the Jets, NO, Miami? I'm sure some of them are better but if we match up ok with the Cowboys this is a 10 win team easily.
You mean the 2 1/2 years where they lead the league in injuries or doesn't that matter.
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Show me.
You mean the 2 1/2 years where they lead the league in injuries or doesn't that matter.
Doesn't matter. You are what you are. They got old and the talent level dropped.
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Show me.
You mean the 2 1/2 years where they lead the league in injuries or doesn't that matter.
If the injuries make losing more palatable for you, then go with it. But the season records aren't posted with asterisks
There are about 5 teams every year that are really bad. They won't sniff a winning season and will likely get a top 5 draft pick. These teams typically win 4 or fewer games.
That leaves 20 to 22 team that are in the middle. Nominally, they are 8-8 teams. A combination of injuries (or lack thereof), making a key big play in a game or two (or not) and unexpected season long great performances from a few key players (or not) adds or subtracts 2 games from that 8-8 record. This leaves these "mediocre middle" teams with 6 to 10 wins. The ones that have the fewer injuries, make the key plays and get an unexpectedly good season etc. get to 10 wins and make the playoffs. The ones that don't end up with 6 to 9 wins and miss the playoffs.
I know the Giants aren't in the "elite 4 to 6" at the top and I don't believe they are among the "filthy 5" at the bottom. They are among the "mediocre middle" and will end up somewhere between 6-10 and 10-6.
Stealing a win in Dallas would be great, but a win in Dallas wouldn't be among the games I'd expect them to win, even if they go 10-6.
Patience.
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In comment 12468379 Victor in CT said:
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Show me.
You mean the 2 1/2 years where they lead the league in injuries or doesn't that matter.
If the injuries make losing more palatable for you, then go with it. But the season records aren't posted with asterisks
If ignoring the reality of what actually happened suits your agenda, then go with it.
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In comment 12468399 BillT said:
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In comment 12468379 Victor in CT said:
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Show me.
You mean the 2 1/2 years where they lead the league in injuries or doesn't that matter.
If the injuries make losing more palatable for you, then go with it. But the season records aren't posted with asterisks
If ignoring the reality of what actually happened suits your agenda, then go with it.
The reality is that the talent level fell off a cliff. They were on fumes in 2011 when they won it, and they collapsed in 2012 and on. They players brought in to replace the stalwarts were not as good. Many of the injured were chronically injured players that Reese brought in (see Beason, Schwartz) in desperation, others that Reese drafted knowing their injury history..
If you think that this is just an injury issue, take off the rose colored glasses. It is not a good roster, thought I do think it is improving. They probably need at least 1 and probably 2 more solid drafts.
I do agree that the loss of Gettleman seems to have set us back hugely. Where are the O'Hara, Domineck Hixon type signings in FA? Our pro personnel judgment is abysmal. And "abysmal" is being nice!
Coming back in both games late only to see the defense become defenseless with the game and season on the line.
If Spags can make a difference then I see a good chance for meaningful games in Dec.
We shall see.
RB - push
WR - push If we had Cruz its a different rating
TE - Dallas Witten is more clutch when needed than Donnell
OL - Dallas And its not even close.
DL - Dallas But not by much
LB - Dallas Not sure we have a MLB for this game
CB - Giants
S - Dallas We are pretty weak here clearly.
Specials - probably Dallas as they have great K, and we have new punter
I stopped reading when you dismissed/ignored their OL crushing ours by saying we have "rebuilt" our offensive line? Really?? There will be some guys at new positions on Sunday night. Flowers looks to be a good prospect, but as the Pats game shows, it is a work in progress. Richburg got benched last year, who knows if the position change will work? Pugh at LG, he was suitable at Tackle, but who knows. Schwartz didn't really impress anyone when he played last year? RG, who knows? Do we have an NFL right tackle? we might have one of the worst oLines in football, they might have the very best. that is where this discussion begins and ends. Their offense will have time to pick apart our crappy defense, our skill players won't have any time to work and pick apart a defense that some think is improved, but even if not, we will run into functionality problems. Your analysis was no analysis. Don't want to be mean, but football is won in the trenches and that is why we have looked so bad the last 2.5 years, and the preseason has shown no indication that that changed.
RB - push
WR - push If we had Cruz its a different rating
TE - Dallas Witten is more clutch when needed than Donnell
OL - Dallas And its not even close.
DL - Dallas But not by much
LB - Dallas Not sure we have a MLB for this game
CB - Giants
S - Dallas We are pretty weak here clearly.
Specials - probably Dallas as they have great K, and we have new punter
There have been recent games where we cannot even cover Witten. Didn't he have like 15 catches against us in one game since 2012?
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I went through a unit by unit comparison with the great and mighty Cowboys above. I had lots of people tell me I'm wrong not one though showed me where I got that analysis wrong.
I stopped reading when you dismissed/ignored their OL crushing ours by saying we have "rebuilt" our offensive line? Really?? There will be some guys at new positions on Sunday night. Flowers looks to be a good prospect, but as the Pats game shows, it is a work in progress. Richburg got benched last year, who knows if the position change will work? Pugh at LG, he was suitable at Tackle, but who knows. Schwartz didn't really impress anyone when he played last year? RG, who knows? Do we have an NFL right tackle? we might have one of the worst oLines in football, they might have the very best. that is where this discussion begins and ends. Their offense will have time to pick apart our crappy defense, our skill players won't have any time to work and pick apart a defense that some think is improved, but even if not, we will run into functionality problems. Your analysis was no analysis. Don't want to be mean, but football is won in the trenches and that is why we have looked so bad the last 2.5 years, and the preseason has shown no indication that that changed.
Essex, Their OL doesn't play our OL. And I said that their OL was great. That was the point of my exchange with Bossman.
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There have been recent games where we cannot even cover Witten. Didn't he have like 15 catches against us in one game since 2012?
Last year in both games combined Witten had 6 catches for 57 yards and 1 TD.
Last year Donnell fumbled away both games, no?
One is a borderline NFL player, who I like--the other is a sure fire HOFer
RB - push
WR - push If we had Cruz its a different rating
TE - Dallas Witten is more clutch when needed than Donnell
OL - Dallas And its not even close.
DL - Dallas But not by much
LB - Dallas Not sure we have a MLB for this game
CB - Giants
S - Dallas We are pretty weak here clearly.
Specials - probably Dallas as they have great K, and we have new punter
We're better at WR than them even without Cruz. We're way better and deeper at RB. Their DL will be Lawrence, Hayden, Crawford and Mincy. How is that better than what the Giants will put out there. It's not. Their LBs, Wilber, Hitchens and Lee. Not better than the Giants LBs either. With Beason a push at best.
I wish I never clicked on this thread, not because I don't enjoy debating, I don't enjoy debating how much the Cowboys and that plastic surgery lowlife Jerry Jones has built a better team than us.
RB: maybe you are correct and we are deeper now that we have Vereen. But since he is more of a 3rd down catching threat I would say either give the Giants the nod at RB or WR but not both.
DL/LB - our rushing defense was basically the worst in the league last year. And what did we do to get better b/c we haven't seen it in preseason either. Dallas is better.
RB: maybe you are correct and we are deeper now that we have Vereen. But since he is more of a 3rd down catching threat I would say either give the Giants the nod at RB or WR but not both.
DL/LB - our rushing defense was basically the worst in the league last year. And what did we do to get better b/c we haven't seen it in preseason either. Dallas is better.
It's not an either/or. Their #1 running back is Darren McFadden. He couldn't make the Giants' RB squad as a backup. Dallas' run defense was ranked 22nd by FO the same as their pass defense. No. this isn't an all time great Giants defense but 22nd is doable.
Written = totally reliable even if in decline.
Our guys best hope is that they're murcurial. Nobody has even 25% the long term potential of what Witten has already accomplished.
Written = totally reliable even if in decline.
Our guys best hope is that they're murcurial. Nobody has even 25% the long term potential of what Witten has already accomplished.
No arguments there. And if the difference in the game is Witten, like I said before, I won't be surprised. But this isn't the same as the Giants' TEs going into 2014. We have some talent there.
We're going to have success on offense. Their D looks to be as perfectly ordinary as ours is.
You could make the case that the Giants' biggest investment this off-season was in special teams. It's important that this unit out perform its opposition most games in order for the Giants to win. This may well be true Sunday.
If you really go back and look at it Quinn's units' results have been mixed over the years. Not all bad. But very bad recently and trending terribly. If you wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt you could suppose that the bottom of the roster turnover over the pat two years contributed to the poor performance if the ST. (Certainly losing Wilson, the team's all-time single season KOR leader after one year in the league, didn't help.)
We'll have massive turnover at the end if this year if the team is as bad as most folks around here seem to think it is.
I'm looking for reasons to believe they're wrong.
Vereen might be the most valuable all-around but we haven't even seen him really play in our offense yet.
Ok, we'll see. Keep in mind with their offensive line, the overall running game for Dallas may still be better (even if you consider they have lesser backs).