The return of Spagnuolo

more than fewell simply because he is more aggressive. That being said this isnt like having Rex Ryan as your DC.

Like 95% of coaches it comes down to the talent. Coaches across the league are made and broken by the talent they have.

Would Tom Coughlin have taken Rex' jets teams to back to back AFC Championship games? Probably not.

Even if the talent isn't great, I think he can be more creative and will at least be willing to try different things to work with the talent the Giants do have (Fewell didn't seem to try anything new when what they were doing wasn't working).

While optimistic, I am also a realist so I my expectations are tempered.

In comment 12468436 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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more than fewell simply because he is more aggressive. That being said this isnt like having Rex Ryan as your DC. Like 95% of coaches it comes down to the talent. Coaches across the league are made and broken by the talent they have. Would Tom Coughlin have taken Rex' jets teams to back to back AFC Championship games? Probably not.

You just said it's 95% talent, then said one coach couldn't replicate the other's results. You sure about that?

it, the Giants defense has sucked for many seasons now. There were some spurts of good performance but overall that has been the unit keeping the team down.

The unit needs to be entirely rebuilt and I personally am glad Spags is back to do it because the last time the Giants possessed a quality defensive unit was when he was here.

Right. And what I'm saying is Rex Ryan was able to squeeze more out of that jet team than Coughlin would have because there is a tangible benefit to having Rex as your HC. He makes your defnese better. An average defense will be good. A good defense will be great.

Coughlin on that team would have improved what? What would have been better about that jets team with Coughlin as coach?

... to have a successful defense. BUT, I absolutely 100% feel that Spags will get the most out of what we have. Even if he can lift the defensive stats to middle of the pack, I feel we have a good shot to make the playoffs.

I was never a fan of Fewell.

and the head coach is still the problem.

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What have you seen from Cooper Taylor? He’s a guy who kind of slipped into that first-team spot late in camp. A: I don’t think he has a volume of reps as a safety in the NFL is my understanding. So he’s probably no different than a lot of the other guys with the youth. So we’ll see.

That reads to me that Spags isn't picking his starters which makes the Kuhn thing more understandable.

Did you happen to look at the injury report at any time during the preseason?

he needs the horses to be successful. With that said, he has an average defense talent-wise, IMO, and I think we can't expect any more then that in results. He will have decent schemes and can adjust better then Fewell has and that in itself might help get this defense back to some respectability.

Man we've come a long way from the Parcells, Belicheck defenses of the 80s. I know it's not the same league anymore, but I really miss Giants domination on defense!

gives me faith that we can have an average defense. I'm no expert but our blitzes already look better in the preseason. He also understands that you get to a point where you try to be too fancy and complex and all you do is confuse your own players.

I like his aggressive philosophy. I think it makes it fun for the players. We needed a change from the bend but don't break style of Fewell.

I think were either going to rattle some quarterbacks or get a lot of points put up us. Wouldn't be surprise to see us give up a lot of big plays early in the season but have things come around as we get into the flow of the season.

a miracle worker. The talent level isn't close to what he had here in 2007.

sucked, as did part of the third game, and then things abruptly clicked vs. Skins and the whole season turned around.

Albeit with better talent, to be sure.

Year YPG PPG

2013 32 26
2014 19 15

In 2014, they hired new coaching and lost their best LB for the year in pre-season (and their best DL to Free agency). Everyone picked them to suck last year. Yet, their defense got BETTER.

Coaching plays a huge role in bringing out the talent in players. I have at least hope that Spags will bring out the talent in some of these guys and make our Defense better. It will take some time though.

We identify what excellent pieces they had in 2008 defensively? The Safeties, corners, and linebackers were nothing special. The DL was its strength, and had nice pieces but lacked depth. Here's to show you how limited and very average much of the talent was on the back seven. By the time the playoffs came by, the DL were fatigued and worn down. I believe both Robbins and Cofield were playing injured.

DE Justin Tuck
DT Barry Cofield
DT Fred Robbins
DE Mathias Kiwanuka

Depth: Jay Alford, Renaldo Wynn, Dave Tollefson, Jerome McDougle (played four games)

LB Chase Blackburn
LB Antonio Pierce
LB Danny Clark

Note: Blackburn missed eight starts; Kehl (2), Wilkinson (5) got the rest

CB Corey Webster
CB Aaron Ross
FS Michael Johnson
SS James Butler

CB starts also came from Kevin Dockery (1) and Terrell Thomas (2)
Safety's depth was primarily Kenny Phillips and Sammy Knight, who missed seven games.

In comment 12468524 Victor in CT said:

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a miracle worker. The talent level isn't close to what he had here in 2007.

The talent level in 07 is not as great as people think...that defensive line made up for a lot of deficiencies on that team...

Remember Strahan almost retired because he thought the team would suck...

I would argue that the 08 defense was better than the 07 defense and that defense did not have osi or strahan...it was a more balanced defense...

In 07 if strahan, osi or tuck did not get to the qb the defense did not look so good...

I like Spagnuolo, I just think he's got his work cut out for him with some of this personnel. If he can turn this into a league average defense, I will honestly consider it a massive victory. It's going to take a lot to keep this unit out of the bottom 3rd of the league.

I think the 2008 Giants defense benefited from a dominant OL and powerful offense similarly to the way the 2014 Cowboys defense did.

Spagnuolo did a good job with that unit but I do think there's something to be said for having a top 3 NFL offense and an offense that can control possession.

that thinks Fewell had to go. He was a fine secondary coach but the front seven was shambolic under his tenure. Completely devoid of imagination.

Spags is gonna win some and lose some with his aggressive nature, especially early on but so be it.

The problem is also that, if anything, we have probably less talent than Fewell had now JPP is out. We desperately need Prince and DRC to play a full season at a high level.

- I don't expect miracles from Spags, but if he can make this a middle of the pack defense, then I think we can make the playoffs.

- 2007 might not have been defensively stacked, but that DL was sick, and the defense was playing very well. Remember - the Pats were known for their league leading O, and the Giants held them to 14 points.

to compare this years defense to the 07 defense because they are going to look completely different...

in 07 spags relied on his Dline to help the secondary and linebackers..

this year i expect him to use the secondary and the linebackers to help the dline...

here is what i mean in 07 he could rush 4 and drop back into coverage to help the secondary and would get pressure...

this year i expect a lot of different looks and putting DRC and Prince on islands and using different blitzes to help get to the qb...i do not expect to see a lot of just 4 guys rush and drop back....

I expect to see a lot of blitzes from Kennard, Thomas, Collins and Taylor...DRC and Prince have to hold up for this Defense to be successful..

I expect to see Kennard moved all over the field to help try and get pressure, same as moore...

In comment 12468569 jcn56 said:

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- - 2007 might not have been defensively stacked, but that DL was sick, and the defense was playing very well. Remember - the Pats were known for their league leading O, and the Giants held them to 14 points.

That defensive line made up for a lot...in that superbowl that dline got a lot of pressure on brady allowing spags to drop back into coverage and double Moss...

If the dline was not getting pressure it would of been a different superbowl, it is why Tuck was considered an MVp candidate after the first half...

we saw what happened when the defense did not get pressure, Pats went right down the field and scored...

Without that defensive line that defense would not of been very good...

Spags is back. I don't expect miracles but I do expect a defense that will attack it's opponent. One of the biggest things I remember is that there was a huge disparity between Fewell and Spags, there were moments during Spags time when I felt like the defense would make a play or for certain get off the field on 3rd down.I hardly ever felt that way when Fewell was in the Chair. It always felt like the D-fense was on skates when Fewell was pushing the buttons.I would be surprised when we stopped people when he was here especially during critical moments and i felt the opposite while Spags where here.One things for sure I doubt I will have the same helpless feeling I felt while Fewell was here now that Spags is running the show.

Note, the 2008 defense was better statistically than 2007.

5th in points
5th in total yards
7th in first downs allowed
8th in pass yards allowed
7th in TD passes
17 total INT's, 15 FF, 7 FR
9th in rush yards, 15th in TD's allowed, 4.0 ypc

2007 defense

17th in points
7th in total yards
10th in first downs allowed
11th in pass yards allowed
20th in TD passes
15 total INT's, 14 FF, 12 FR
8th in rush yards, 17th in TD's allowed, 3..8 ypc

In comment 12468569 jcn56 said:

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- I don't expect miracles from Spags, but if he can make this a middle of the pack defense, then I think we can make the playoffs.

^This is one of the most overlooked points. The D doesn't need to be top 5 or even top 10 to make this team competitive. If the O can be productive (similar too if not better then last year), then a middle of the road D will have the Giants competing for the playoffs in December.

Not absorbing it in a fetal position like we did with Fewell

In comment 12468571 nygiants16 said:

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to compare this years defense to the 07 defense because they are going to look completely different... in 07 spags relied on his Dline to help the secondary and linebackers.. this year i expect him to use the secondary and the linebackers to help the dline... here is what i mean in 07 he could rush 4 and drop back into coverage to help the secondary and would get pressure... this year i expect a lot of different looks and putting DRC and Prince on islands and using different blitzes to help get to the qb...i do not expect to see a lot of just 4 guys rush and drop back.... I expect to see a lot of blitzes from Kennard, Thomas, Collins and Taylor...DRC and Prince have to hold up for this Defense to be successful.. I expect to see Kennard moved all over the field to help try and get pressure, same as moore...

But they did. And did it with 4 guys rushing the passer. What unit is outstanding on this team?

al i am saying is the 2 defenses are going to look completely different...

07 was built around their defensive line and their ability to rush the passer...

this year it is going to built on the hope that DRC and Prince can both be number 1 Corners....if they can play like number 1 corners then Spags can be more aggressive with his blitz schemes and that will help this defense...

see my point?

end, I was not against it either..

As to Spags:

1-He was the HC AT St. Louis and NOT the DC, there's a huge difference between the two..His input was obviously there, but he wasn't call the in-game D..His DC was..There's a difference there too

2-He spent one year as DC in one of the most dysfunctional franchises for a given year, ever..Also had no real Secondary to work with given the Giants-like injuries he had there and other parts of his D..

Not a total excuse of course, but at least a perspective one, imo

in 07 without the defensive line playing like they did that defense is terrible...

This year if the corners do not hold up then this defense is going to be absolutely terrible...

as much as people ignore it DRC and Prince are here to be shut down number 1 corners and they have to prove that this year for this defense to be succesful...

In comment 12468623 nygiants16 said:

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al i am saying is the 2 defenses are going to look completely different... 07 was built around their defensive line and their ability to rush the passer... this year it is going to built on the hope that DRC and Prince can both be number 1 Corners....if they can play like number 1 corners then Spags can be more aggressive with his blitz schemes and that will help this defense... see my point?

My point is that in 2007 they had at least 1 outstanding unit on defense that Spags could build around. That it was the most important unit on the D was a bonus. There is not one outstanding unit on this defense, show his job will be infinitely more difficult.

you could see in pre season
there were plays that were way too easy for opposing offenses
i am hoping it was because this unit is not yet comfortable with the new system

there were also glimpses where defense had well disguised blitzes
that actually disrupted the offense

The thing is theoretically our defense doesn't have to be amazing
we were 29th last year
if we our offense can be as productive as last year and our defense get into middle pack then we can make the playoffs

In comment 12468672 Victor in CT said:

Quote:

In comment 12468623 nygiants16 said: Quote: al i am saying is the 2 defenses are going to look completely different... 07 was built around their defensive line and their ability to rush the passer... this year it is going to built on the hope that DRC and Prince can both be number 1 Corners....if they can play like number 1 corners then Spags can be more aggressive with his blitz schemes and that will help this defense... see my point? My point is that in 2007 they had at least 1 outstanding unit on defense that Spags could build around. That it was the most important unit on the D was a bonus. There is not one outstanding unit on this defense, show his job will be infinitely more difficult.

But again that is exactly my point...

He has to rely on his strength of this defense which is their corners...

For this defense to be succesful his corners have to play like their reputation as number 1 guys...

it is going to be completely different from 07...

07 he had a crutch, he had the defensive line so that helped him....

this year it is more towards the secondary and maybe he can be even more agressive if those guys play like they are supposed to...

Now if DRC and Prince are constantly getting beat then this defense will absolutely suck...

Just like when the defensive line was not getting pressure in 07 that defense sucked...

IT was the difference between the regular season matchup and the superbowl...the dline dominated...

one unit of strength is much more difficult than having your DL and pass rush as your strength. As we have all seen, if you can''t rush the passer, anybody can beat your secondary. Add in that the Safety help is mad up of a rookie and some journeyman it will be even more difficult.

teaching, motivating, managing, game planning and game adjustments.

it's almost laughable that you continue this stance.

This current defense has no strength. Osi, Tuck, Strahan would be the best players on this current defense. Every last one of them.

Just give it a rest already. You cant say "without the DL' because they had that DL. Jesus.

the 16 in nygiants16 stands for your age because you come across as a foolish teenager.

If you are my apologies.

In comment 12468776 Victor in CT said:

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one unit of strength is much more difficult than having your DL and pass rush as your strength. As we have all seen, if you can''t rush the passer, anybody can beat your secondary. Add in that the Safety help is mad up of a rookie and some journeyman it will be even more difficult.

I never said it would be easy

But if they play like shutdown corners then dpags can blitz more and help get to the passer

In comment 12468787 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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it's almost laughable that you continue this stance. This current defense has no strength. Osi, Tuck, Strahan would be the best players on this current defense. Every last one of them. Just give it a rest already. You cant say "without the DL' because they had that DL. Jesus.

Hey moron why don't you go reread what I wrote

I never once said this defense will be better I said they are built completely different

The 07 defense was built around their dline and without their pressure they were a bad defense...how is that arguable?

This years defense is going to go based on DRC and prince if they can cover then spags can be more aggressive...

Where did I say this years defense will be better?

I have said they are two completely different units and built completely different

But again keep putting words in my mouth you moron

ok. Enjoy popping your pimples.

In comment 12468436 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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Would Tom Coughlin have taken Rex' jets teams to back to back AFC Championship games? Probably not.

Sure he would have. He did it with Jacksonville, an expansion team. Don't fool yourself. Even with all of Tom's faults, he's still a great head coach. One of the best in the NFL in fact.

In comment 12468815 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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ok. Enjoy popping your pimples.

Okie dokie thanks

cant debate something and actually have a conversation about something and resorts to name calling...it is laughable...

One more question...hey ODB what was your previous handle?

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At least we will go down swinging montanagiant : 10:50 am : link : reply Not absorbing it in a fetal position like we did with Fewell

LOL. I agree completely!

Spags is not a miracle worker. In spite of what Coughlin said, I think Spags defense may be "complex" or at least have a steep learning curve. Injuries, limited training camp / practice time will likely mean the defense will be "sub par" at least for the first few games.

Patience.

I will also be the first one to say boy was i wrong if the defense bombs and is terrible...

In comment 12468860 Trainmaster said:

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Quote: At least we will go down swinging montanagiant : 10:50 am : link : reply Not absorbing it in a fetal position like we did with Fewell LOL. I agree completely! Spags is not a miracle worker. In spite of what Coughlin said, I think Spags defense may be "complex" or at least have a steep learning curve. Injuries, limited training camp / practice time will likely mean the defense will be "sub par" at least for the first few games. Patience.

It got so tiring watching Fewells pussified version of Defense, especially with a lead late in the game.

endorse the defense's talent in his press conferences.

Given the systemic/rule advantages given to the offensive side, I think you need to take risks, and I think this favors a coach like Spags over Fewell (although Fewell was screwed by all of the injuries last year.

The success of the defense this year will rest not on Spags, but rather on;
1) when will JPP return and will he be as effective as before
2) will the young safeties (Taylor and Collins) play well
3) will OO and Bromley (and Moore) play well.
4) will we remain relatively healthy.

So I think the defense will improve over the course of this year, unless hit by injuries.

to be rebuilt. That is happening now. There is no doubt that there will be many growing pains and there is this not a unit that on paper looks loaded with talent.

I think this unit has no where to go but up based on the joke that was the defense in recent years. If some of these young guys can actually make some plays the rebuild could go faster.

I also agree that this unit becoming even league average would allow the Giants to have a legit shot at the playoffs.

Just because it all went right the last time doesn't mean it will this time.

But here's hoping....

...that Fewell never understood needed to be done.

When you have a shit defense, you need to take some big risk gambles.

That will make this year's defense better than last year's!

he doesn't have Strahan, Osi, Pierce, Tuck in his prime or the savvy veterans in the secondary. a lot of youth and talent gaps this time around.

that being said, I really liked the way he mixed up the calls when he was here and he was aggressive. and we didn't see the total communication breakdowns in the secondary under spags like we did under fewell.

I thought it should have been done a season earlier. Just by removing him, D think the D gets a slight bump. As for Spags, I think he is better, but that may not be saying much. I think a lot of people here vastly overrate Spags. He is not a defensive genius and he isn't going to scheme his way out of a problematic D in terms of personnel/injuries. The fact that he has Kuhn starting worries me, for example.

I think his one very good year, he relied heavily on the dominating DL play. He parlayed that season into a HC job. In St. Louis I don know how much he had to do with the D, but it wasn't very good. In his next DC job, he oversaw one of the statistically worst Ds ever. I don't care about personnel. If you are supposed to be a genius, you don't have one of the worst ever. He was so bad that he was resigned to a positional coach in Baltimore. Overall, their D was good while he was there, but their pass D was mediocre and he was responsible for the secondary.

So, I expect them to go from a bottom 5 D to maybe a middle of the pack D. I think the most important thing for this D is whether a consistent rotation of DL can yield the best out of each of the players involved.

In comment 12468789 Old Dirty Beckham said:

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the 16 in nygiants16 stands for your age because you come across as a foolish teenager. If you are my apologies.

You my friend are no 5-star poster around here yourself, yet most of this board gives you the benefit by not insulting you. Douche bag.

But when he did blitz, we rarely did it successfully - usually the timing was obvious, and the blitzers would be picked up. That's the one change I'm looking for from Spags - more effective blitzes.

In comment 12469360 Ira said:

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But when he did blitz, we rarely did it successfully - usually the timing was obvious, and the blitzers would be picked up. That's the one change I'm looking for from Spags - more effective blitzes.

exactly....spags threw in a lot of safety and corner blitzes that were effective both against the run and to pressure/hit the Qb.