Has a decision already been made that this is a down year?

not how they do that determines who comes back or doesn't. Obviously if they make the Playoffs its a moot point. If they beat bad teams and get blown out by good teams then there will be changes. I think it comes down to the eye test for Mara

said at the end of last year that if we didn't make the playoffs in 15', things would change. Reese also said that we're close, closer than people think. So, how would any decision have been made?

will guarantee the coaching staff will be back. If they meek out .500 and so long as the team doesn't quit and they compete in the losing games, then the coaching staff will be back. Losing record with blowouts, forget about it.

Don't get me wrong, I like Coughlin and barring a huge collapse, I would want him to return in 2016, but I think ownership is about out of patience.

Other than losing Eli for the season and early in the season, if we don't make the playoffs, I think Mara will shed a tear and make the tough decision to let Coughlin go.

Injured players, young players, new OC, new DC, there's always some excuse.

Mara's January 2015 comments seemed like his January 2014 comments to me.

to some sort of senior management role after this year, with McAdoo taking the reigns. From a PR point of view, which Mara is acutely aware of, i'm not sure how he could keep coughlin if we go 6-10 again. I also think our team is better than people think and i still think we end up 9-7 despite the injuries. Our schedule is very weak.

In comment 12469510 CMicks3110 said:

Quote:

said at the end of last year that if we didn't make the playoffs in 15', things would change. Reese also said that we're close, closer than people think. So, how would any decision have been made?

Don't believe everything you hear from Mara and Reese. Keep in mind that most of their quotes are in answer to provocative questions by our dear friends, the "Sports Journalists".

It's going to be a bad year unless things break perfectly. hence why I hope they really concentrate on the Kennard, collins, owa, flowers type players. if they improve along with a few others... it's a successful year regardless of record.

games before we pronounce the patient dead?

I hope not. What a horrible way to enter a season. The circumstances in which the team finds itself are not entirely accidental. Other than injuries everything else is a function of coaching and personnel decisions made by the GM and the staff.

The coach has been paid handsomely, as has the GM. The "debt" for winning two SBs is paid. The future cannot be dictated by the past. Why not give the fans a discount on the prices of tickets as a gesture of gratitude for the loyalty shown in the last 3 terrible years and many other times during the Giants' history.

Assuming that the other premises are correct in your statement, how does the ownership not make some changes if it is another lost year?

convinced Mara about the cycles with which football teams rise and fall; i believe he mentioned 4 year windows several times. I think that there is a recognition from ownership that we have had very bad luck with injuries (c.jones, d.wilson, now jpp) , and that we made some mistakes in our drafts (i.e. jernigan, austin, beckum, barden) after 2014 season. I can't see Mara using the same excuse again in january 2016. There will be a change for change's sake if we really falter this year.

Record wise 2014 was worse than 2013. But the eye test showed 2013 was a much bigger disaster IMO.

They just need to show the the team is on the rise. They did that last year and need to continue the trend.

That means young guys need to step and show their worth. And one more offseason and we should hopefully be able to purge the remaining vets that are dead weight (Beason, Jenkins, Maybe Beatty, DRC needs a less prominent role, Cruz pay cut if he is a shell, etc)

No JPP and no Beatty changes things ALOT.

You are talking about very different O and D lines with those two.

Now we're starting out without Cruz and Beason as well?

Go pluck the starting LT, MLB, best defensive player and slot receiver off any roster and things are going to change drastically.

We don't need a miracle to compete this season, we just needed to stay relatively healthy (or maybe that would be a miracle at this point) but all we've gotten is a lifting accident, a fireworks mishap, setbacks and the same nagging injuries for the usual suspects.

about our efforts to create cap space, this is a tactic that the Giants have not used before. We have traditionally always been right up against the limit, but this year we are creating a lot of excess cap room. Are we planning on making a trade? Splurge next year? Re-sign players like Prince? With Pierre-Paul's cap number going down week by week, and with over $50 million in cap room next year, are we planning on splurging?

In comment 12469520 Bold Ruler said:

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Injured players, young players, new OC, new DC, there's always some excuse.

This

In comment 12469532 section125 said:

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games before we pronounce the patient dead?

This. 90% of the posters here are 100% certain we're gonna get killed sunday night and are destined for a 3-13 season. I hope every one of you bitches don't turn on your TV's sunday night and re-arrange your sock and underwear drawers instead. I can't wait for sunday night, i'm excited to see OBJ give the dallas secondary fits and i'm excited to see all the young no-namers and see what they got.

Cruz, Beatty, Beason are not worthy of their salaries after the season. We will have more cap space than we've ever had before. And we don't have that many urgent re-signings other than Randle, Hankins, and Prince.

thus, the decisions are more conservative leaving fans asking wtf, often.

That Mara's "win or else" mantra at the end of 2014 was nothing more than raw emotion days after a miserable season had ended. I think had he held that PC after the Super Bowl or at the Combine, his answer would have been different. It's my opinion that short of a disaster season (4-12 or worse), not much is going to change in either the FO or the staff. And, that's going to infuriate a large portion of the fanbase.

the last two days have been unusually negative, suggesting we should not be surprised by several mental and communication mistakes, especially by the defense.

It could get ugly fast, but my fingers remain crossed.

If he does his usual "we play to win every game" and gives playing time to average to below average vets instead of giving the kids as much PT as possible, then they are not admitting to this being a rebuilding year. And they are not committing to the future.

In comment 12469538 CMicks3110 said:

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There will be a change for change's sake if we really falter this year.

yeah, this year they could get rid of Quinn and complete the purge

Only on BBI and the media..Otherwise, no way, imo

A lot of weird injuries have hurt this team. I think I would have faith that the team is in a rebuilding cycle and what I would be looking for would be progress. Player development. I would be looking pretty carefully at the last three draft classes (when they stopped trying to hit homeruns on freaky athletes who weren't necessarily great football players). I would like to see that those guys were long term players.

If I saw enough progress and a hopeful future, I would stay the course. I think we are another draft away from being truly competitive.

you can place a number on how many games coughlin must win to keep his job (or reese for that matter). I think your eyes will tell you a lot about that.

Is it me or does McAdoo not look our sound like a guy who should be the HC of the ny giants.

He looks like a guy the jaguars hire for three years before firing.

In comment 12469555 Giants4246 said:

Quote:

This. 90% of the posters here are 100% certain we're gonna get killed sunday night and are destined for a 3-13 season.

That's nonsense. Hardly anyone is predicting just 3 wins

What were your expectations?

And I've never seen so many pussybaby predictions. We haven't even played yet. Give it at least a series or two before we start mock drafts for next year.

...then no one is safe.

This league isn't good enough to say you can't compete before the season starts, and that's ignoring the possibility of league changing injuries.

I come back to these factors:

1) Easier schedule
2) uncertain division... This time last year everyone said Dallas was horrific. I don't think that they're as good as what they did last year. Washington is a disaster, and Philly a total mystery
3) offense figures to be equal or better than last year
4) defense can not be worse than last year, and will likely be better

This league is not set up for teams to suck for long, and our coach is very good.

10-6.

Thank you for starting this thread. I have had this feeling for a few weeks now and started a thread stating that I don't think Coughlin will be fired unless this team has a total collapse. There is what Mara said in January, but I think we should all look at that statement as a moment in time, which took place soon after the end of the 2014 season, and prior to the draft a FA. To quote Nick Cage (from The Rock) "a lot has happened since then."

Based on the following, I just do not envision a scenario where ownership blows up the Coughlin, MacAdoo, Spagnulo, and Eli team.

1. Eli just signed a 5 year deal. Are the Giants going to run the risk of taking away an offensive coordinator he has had success with, or the QB coach he has enjoyed the most success with?

2. You have to factor in what this team has lost since Mara made that statement. It is currently without its starting LT, MLB, and best defensive player and pass rusher. Losing one of those positions is big, losing 2 is a problem, and losing all three is a potential catastrophe.

3. Victor Cruz is still not 100% and probably won't be until next year.

4. The offensive system is in its 2nd year, the defense is in its first. You can argue it would be foolish to change course regardless of how things go in 2015. I would also ask the fan base. Name me a realistic head coach, offensive coordinator, and defensive coordinator grouping you'd rather see. Personally, I think there are few head coaches better than Coughlin, I love watching Eli in this offense, and Spagnulo brings an attacking style of defense many of us believe is best suited for today's NFL.

I see the season like this. The front office will be happy if this team shows improvement. If it actually competes on a week-to-week basis. Far too many times last year the Giants were out of the game early. The Eagles and Colts game come to mind. Those were embarrassing. If this team finishes 8-8 (a real possibility) I don't think we see any changes. I think if it finishes 7-9 but is in the playoff discussion after Thanksgiving, I don't think we see any changes. A 6-10 finish might lead to a change, but again, if the team shows improvement in its play (not just record) I don't think Mara is going to demand changes.

I believe the Giants are reloading for the next 4 years. Another offseason with what looks to be substantial cap space to play with will help restock talent and build off what looks to be three good drafts in a row. I'm by no means writing off this season, but no one would say we should expect big things. I do believe the will surprise many.

In a era where franchise patience scarce, I think we might all actually want to see the Giants be patient for the next few years and rebuild around Coughlin, Macadoo, Spagnulo, Eli, and Bekham.

90% of BBI needs time to mentally prepare for a possible bad outcome?

I just got an email about playoff tix from the Giants........planning ahead :)

... unless the season is relatively injury free (one can dream), the team is regularly out coached and Coughlin appears to have "lost the locker room", I agree that Coughlin, McAdoo and Spags aren't going anywhere.

Ultimately, it comes down to:

1) A team is in the very top tier/sure SB contender; mortgage the future if necessary to increase the chance of winning this year
2) A team is very close; mortgage some of the long term to win sooner rather than later
3) A team isn't close, but signs are the arrow is pointing up; compromise the current year somewhat for a better future
4) A team is bad and maybe getting worse; blow the whole thing up and start over

2003 Giants were 4)

1990 and maybe 2011 Giants were probably 1)

2011 Cowboys were 2) (Roy Williams deal for example)

2015 Giants are 3)


I think ownership believes the 2014 and 2015 drafts have "righted the ship". While not a 5 year project, the coaching and roster changes needed to be competitive again require a multi-year (maybe 3) solution. I think only a record worse than 2014 with a healthy team we send Coughlin packing.

In comment 12469621 Go Terps said:

Quote:

This league isn't good enough to say you can't compete before the season starts, and that's ignoring the possibility of league changing injuries. I come back to these factors: 1) Easier schedule 2) uncertain division... This time last year everyone said Dallas was horrific. I don't think that they're as good as what they did last year. Washington is a disaster, and Philly a total mystery 3) offense figures to be equal or better than last year 4) defense can not be worse than last year, and will likely be better This league is not set up for teams to suck for long, and our coach is very good. 10-6.

Agree 1000%. Every single point.

I tend to agree with Emil here. Unless there is a total collapse, I can't see them firing McAdoo and Spagnuolo, which means Coughlin is safe. I see this as an unusual situation where the coordinators are protecting the head coach.

still scouring the waiver wires for starting S and OT? Not to mention the LB situation.

And I'm not writing off the season just yet.

But this is going to be an uphill fight this year. No doubt.

Regarding Victor's last post...yup, we seem to be scouring the waiver wire at a lot of positions. And a couple of these guys we just picked up may end up starting on defense. What does that tell you?

Interesting question. I think a lot depends on how the team performs, not just in terms of record and playoffs, but are they in games? Are there signs of improvement? Is there an encouraging sign or two?

Personally, I am not sold that this team is already done. As early as this Sunday I think they can surprise people. Neither Dallas or Philly is a great team. They have their own flaws. I think the Giants are capable, as is, of beating either. I also think 9 wins may even be enough to take this division. While I'm not sure what I expect, I will not be surprised if the Giants pull it off this weekend and for the season.

In comment 12469678 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

I tend to agree with Emil here. Unless there is a total collapse, I can't see them firing McAdoo and Spagnuolo, which means Coughlin is safe. I see this as an unusual situation where the coordinators are protecting the head coach.

what happens if another team wants to hire mcadoo as their next hc?

Would TC and Reese still be here? Logic dictates NO. Here are some facts in the TC Era:
Coughlin's average win total over 11 seasons: 8.7
Double digit win seasons: 4 (2005, 2007, 2008, 2010)
Playoff years: 5 (highly unlikely we qualify this year)
Under .500 vs both Philadelphia and Dallas
Eagle playoff berths: 6 (will be 7 this year)
Dallas playoff berths: 4 (will be 5 this year)

I said this in another thread: thank goodness they won those 2 SB's because, honestly without them there is nothing to hang your hat on during this Era.

But then again, did we expect much from the Giants in 2007 and 2011, when they got hot late and won the Super Bowl? The only time in recent memory where I can recall the Giants being a contender was in 2008, when they steamrolled the entire league for 12 weeks before Plax and injuries derailed them. So maybe we should just hope for them to keep their heads above water until everything clicks in December?

In comment 12469621 Go Terps said:

Quote:

This league isn't good enough to say you can't compete before the season starts, and that's ignoring the possibility of league changing injuries. I come back to these factors: 1) Easier schedule 2) uncertain division... This time last year everyone said Dallas was horrific. I don't think that they're as good as what they did last year. Washington is a disaster, and Philly a total mystery 3) offense figures to be equal or better than last year 4) defense can not be worse than last year, and will likely be better This league is not set up for teams to suck for long, and our coach is very good. 10-6.

Terps nailed it. Except maybe the record. I strongly believe TC and gang will be back unless this year turns into a total shit show. I don't think Spags would of come back knowing he was on a one year prove it deal. His situation in Baltimore was not a bad one. Additionally, the Beatty and JPP injuries can certainly provide cover for Mara and Company to go with the status quo.

9-7 is my guess...and it is just that...a guess.

... they can maintain offensive continuity.

In comment 12469721 The_Boss said:

Quote:

I said this in another thread: thank goodness they won those 2 SB's because, honestly without them there is nothing to hang your hat on during this Era.

REALLY!!!! WTF is that comment about. The Superbowl wins are ALL that matters in the long run.

In comment 12469748 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

In comment 12469721 The_Boss said: Quote: I said this in another thread: thank goodness they won those 2 SB's because, honestly without them there is nothing to hang your hat on during this Era. REALLY!!!! WTF is that comment about. The Superbowl wins are ALL that matters in the long run.

I would take 2 SB wins every 10 years with 8 of the 10 being down years..But that's just my appreciative self..:)

Let's f**king compete this season or let's clean house alteady.

Everyone should be on board and everyone should be held to account.

In comment 12469740 Boy Cord said:

Quote:

... they can maintain offensive continuity.

Arguably. But we have no idea if McAdoo would make a good head coach. He appears to be a quality offensive mind, but there's more to the job than being a good coordinator.

How unappreciative fans can be. My wifes family is from Cleveland . . . Years and years of misery.

In comment 12469748 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

In comment 12469721 The_Boss said: Quote: I said this in another thread: thank goodness they won those 2 SB's because, honestly without them there is nothing to hang your hat on during this Era. REALLY!!!! WTF is that comment about. The Superbowl wins are ALL that matters in the long run.

What part of what I said wasn't right? Yes they have the 2 SB's and that's great. No doubt. They're going to get Coughlin and probably Manning to the HOF. But step back for a minute and look at the body of work of this regime without them. Numbers don't lie: we're essentially 8-8/9-7 over the last 11 years and have not eclipsed double digits since 2010. Do you see anything other than a middle of the pack franchise over that time?

In comment 12469748 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

In comment 12469721 The_Boss said: Quote: I said this in another thread: thank goodness they won those 2 SB's because, honestly without them there is nothing to hang your hat on during this Era. REALLY!!!! WTF is that comment about. The Superbowl wins are ALL that matters in the long run.

AND they suck vs the 2 main competitors in their own division.

blow out the Cowboys the Super Bowl talk will start and everyone will have amnesia forgetting how terrible this season was going to be. This place doesn't react game to game on how the team will do but play to play. I've been here a while and the collective mind set is the worst I can remember. Not that people can't expect a bad season, but this place has lost its collective mind based on nothing

Though not one I had envisioned. They have turned the roster over and next year will have a sizable war chest to fill with some major FA acquisitions. It fits the Giants' mold as well as they have said over and over how continuity is important to them. Hope it's true.

guys is necessarily safe.

It is shame that we can't seem to dress 20% of our projected starters each game though because of injuries.

That isn't helping anything...

NFL.

was the biggest sign that the organization is resigned to losing this year (and I've never EVER thought that about the team before).

You don't cut your team's defending leading tackler, a guy who plays a very important position where your starter hasn't been healthy in years, all to save a couple bucks, if you think the team has a chance to compete.

In comment 12469805 Mike in Long Beach said:

Quote:

was the biggest sign that the organization is resigned to losing this year (and I've never EVER thought that about the team before). You don't cut your team's defending leading tackler, a guy who plays a very important position where your starter hasn't been healthy in years, all to save a couple bucks, if you think the team has a chance to compete.

I though of this as well but I don't think that they are resigned to losing but are committed to keeping upside talent. Parker mad Davis over Jones fits this mold.

No Beatty, no JPP. Are Beason and Cruz out for a game or out for an extended period of time?

I'm wondering if the injury problem is a lot worse than they are letting on.

How can reaching the pinnacle of the sport twice be dismissed in any way, shape or form?

It sounds as if you'd rather having Andy Reid's record with the Eagles:

14 years
9 winning seasons
9 playoff appearances
10-9 playoff record
0 Super Bowls

than Tom Coughlin's record with the Giants:

11 years
6 winning seasons
5 playoff appearances
8-3 playoff record
2 Super Bowls

What is the major difference between the Reid and Coughlin? 2 Super Bowl wins ! Andy Reid "never could win the big one". All the winning seasons, playoff appearances, playoff wins mean next to nothing without a championship !!!

that he stays no matter what. But at 70? DO you want another Jim Lee Howell stays and Lombardi and Landry leave situation? I'm not saying either coordinator is in that league, but with TC at 70 it might be wise to get a younger guy IF they are convinced that he is top HC material.

There is no guarantee that the offense will be effective because we have no idea if the OL is going to be effective or not and we do not know what we have in Cruz. But let's say the offense is successful this season and we even end up having a decent year: Wouldn't this make McAdoo a hot commodity as a prospective HC? If we do have a productive offense and McAdoo gets bites as a HC: Would the Giants replace TC with McAdoo?

they didn't start the rebuild in 2012. That was a mistake.

The last few drafts have been better, but the five horrific drafts in a row (which were exacerbated by un-Godly bad career-affecting injuries to 10-12 core players) put the Giants behind the 8-ball.

The real rebuild started with switch to McAdoo. They should have fired Fewell last season too.

If McAdoo leaves, it makes it easier to blow it up.

In comment 12469793 The_Boss said:

Quote:

AND they suck vs the 2 main competitors in their own division.

And if someone offered you a choice prior to the last Superbowl win. . .

1. Win the Superbowl and go 0-12 the next three years vs Dallas and Philly

or.

2. Lose but you get to go 12-0 vs Dallas and Philly.

Your really gonna take #2?

But at least BBI will be happy.

the Giants brass knows this team is young and in need of reinforcements. They probably look at this season as a more talented version of the 2004 team--maybe if everything breaks right it can win 9-10 games and if they can have a good year of development out of the young talent they will be setup for a good run in 2016.

I'd love to see this team battle and scratch its way to some kind of identity this year and then head into the off-season with a shit load of money, a top flight QB and staff in place and some pretty good young talent in the fold. Plug holes in FA and have another solid draft and away we go.

This team just doesn't have the depth to withstand injuries. I don't think we've really even been hit that hard with the injuries we just don't have the depth to withstand them all.

We need some of the kids to mature and fast, which could certainly happen, and we really need a fortuitous 3 months of health, which seemingly never happens, lately.

The Giants tend to operate this way. They like to throw a bunch of young talent together and see what happens, then plug holes in FA when the dust settles and they know what they need. IT's a good approach but it could be painful this season. I don't think the Giants will be that bad this year, I could even them really posing problems but in my view I see them falling somewhere in the 8 win range. At times good, at times bad. The lack of depth and star power on D does us in...

Just develop the young core here and go from there.

In comment 12469831 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

If McAdoo leaves, it makes it easier to blow it up.

If McAdoo get hired away....the Giants were probably 8-8 or better and the only way TC goes in that scenario is if he retires.

is the actions of the Giants over the last couple of weeks since final cut downs. Cut the older guys, cut the guys on higher contracts, going with the guys with future promise. Keeping the cap space and rolling it forward.

Again, none of it was bad but some of it just seemed uncharacteristic for the org and how TC manages the roster.

In comment 12469832 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

In comment 12469793 The_Boss said: Quote: AND they suck vs the 2 main competitors in their own division. And if someone offered you a choice prior to the last Superbowl win. . . 1. Win the Superbowl and go 0-12 the next three years vs Dallas and Philly or. 2. Lose but you get to go 12-0 vs Dallas and Philly. Your really gonna take #2?

Why is it unrealistic to have both-be a respected perennial contender who just so happens to have 2 SB's in the bank already? That's what this Era should be. We have a franchise QB in his prime and it is inconceivable that we have missed the playoffs more than we make them.

When I read about the no-trade clause. What's the point in signing him if you aren't going to have a consistent coaching staff. I think the whole staff is safe, whether people like it or not.

I just don't think the Giants see it the way you do

I think the Giants have evolved their thinking and are taking a lot less risk with their personnel decisions and building this team by taking a lot more care through the draft and FA now.

I mean how many here knocked their picks after pick 3 this year - and all of a sudden it looks like the entire draft lass can play (just like last year)

Also the FA signings were very unspectacular but solid in several key areas.

Also the Giants held firm to their schedule of values.

We may yet see a couple of key additions after the season starts --

Overall - I believe this team has improved - and if last years team could go 6-10 - this year's team should be able to get 10 - 11 wins -- start beating the Cowboys and Eagles and it will happen

This is not a down year - IF we have a slew of injuries it could be -- also we have 2 Vets scheduled to return sometime this season Beatty and JPP -- don't count them out just yet - and they both represent a burst of improvement for the team.

GO Giants!!!

In comment 12469827 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

they didn't start the rebuild in 2012. That was a mistake. The last few drafts have been better, but the five horrific drafts in a row (which were exacerbated by un-Godly bad career-affecting injuries to 10-12 core players) put the Giants behind the 8-ball. The real rebuild started with switch to McAdoo. They should have fired Fewell last season too.

No one blows a team up when they've just won the SB. You have to see if you can hold it together and repeat. They had a good number of long term deals as well that had to run their course. And, as yo9u say, the injuries played a huge part and that could not be anticipated

E Martellus Bennett (Signed from Cowboys; 1-year, $2.5 million)
S Stevie Brown (Signed from Colts; 1-year, $540,000 salary)
OT/OG Sean Locklear (Signed from Redskins; 1-year, $825,000 salary)
CB Antwaun Molden (Signed from Patriots; 1-year, $700,000 salary)
DT Shaun Rogers (Signed from Saints; 1-year, $925,000 salary)
DT Marcus Thomas (Signed from Broncos; 1-year, $700,000)

Weatherford and TT were the only long term deals that year.

In comment 12469778 AnnapolisMike said:

Quote:

How unappreciative fans can be. My wifes family is from Cleveland . . . Years and years of misery.

Her family can tell you how wonderful the rivalry was between the Giants and Browns from 1956-1963.. Jimmy Brown, Paul Brown, their Messenger Guards, Connerly, Gifford, Tittle, our D..Just incredible football..

In comment 12469873 BillT said:

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E Martellus Bennett (Signed from Cowboys; 1-year, $2.5 million) S Stevie Brown (Signed from Colts; 1-year, $540,000 salary) OT/OG Sean Locklear (Signed from Redskins; 1-year, $825,000 salary) CB Antwaun Molden (Signed from Patriots; 1-year, $700,000 salary) DT Shaun Rogers (Signed from Saints; 1-year, $925,000 salary) DT Marcus Thomas (Signed from Broncos; 1-year, $700,000) Weatherford and TT were the only long term deals that year.

Enjoying your posts..Keep it going..:)

are not mutually exclusive.

The two SB wins were amazing and among my best sports memories for which I will always be appreciative. The Giants have stunk the past two years and look primed to stink again.

Those two statements can both be true.

really, really wants Coughlin and Eli together for their entire run. And I don't think Coughlin will ever retire before Eli is done playing. He'll coach when he's 73, no problem.

I would think the most vulnerable one is Reese, but Mara is so fond of him, I don't think the danger is significant. If Coughlin, McAdoo, and Spagnuolo get a B+ roster (or better) around Eli, they can coach a Lombardi-winning team. It's a good coaching staff. Unfortunately, the roster is pretty trashy in too many areas right now. Can it be fixed in one offseason? We'll see.

In comment 12469848 The_Boss said:

Quote:

Why is it unrealistic to have both-be a respected perennial contender who just so happens to have 2 SB's in the bank already? That's what this Era should be. We have a franchise QB in his prime and it is inconceivable that we have missed the playoffs more than we make them.

Because it is unrealistic to have won four Superbowls in 25 years. The only stat that matters are the number of times you have won a championship. I get that fans want to be successful every year, but sustained success is rare and difficult to achieve. The disappointment of the last three years is more a result of bad luck and questionable drafting in my opinion. I believe the arrow is pointing up this year...but maybe I am wrong. That is why they play the games.

In comment 12469896 chris r said:

Quote:

are not mutually exclusive. The two SB wins were amazing and among my best sports memories for which I will always be appreciative. The Giants have stunk the past two years and look primed to stink again. Those two statements can both be true.

True..Criticism is fine, I've always said that, believe it or not..My complaint is with those who make statements without rationale(whether I agree or not)..Sorry, The Giants suck, Reese sucks, without reasons, doesn't cut it with me and gets my ire up..If there are reasons attached to the criticisms, I'm fine with that..

For example, Mook and I will always disagree about the impact or lack thereof, of the numerous injuries to starters and back-ups we've incurred the last two years..But the KEY here is that we always try to make our points with reasons..We've just come to the point where we simply will agree to disagree..But there's solid discussion, pro and con..That's all I ask..
Labeling me a homer or Kool-Aid guy doesn't cut it for me unless one can show why..

So again, I will gladly take 8 lousy years out of 10 if two of those years are SBs..And yes, those 8 lousy years will be unhappy ones for me as each loss hurts, but perspective-wise, I'll take that scenario anytime

Reese gets fired. End of story
Coughlin. Retires on his own or goes to the front office

Here's a coach who on two separate occasions was told to fire his assistants and hire somebody else, or he's out. He never seems to know the health status of any of his players, including the most critical. What in the world is he looking at when he's on the practice field? He calls the red zone the "green zone" as if the name is the reason the team is forced to settle for field goals. The only thing he's good at is knowing when to throw the red flag, but that might not even be him. It might be the guys upstairs. If he's fired, I won't complain unless they bring in somebody like Dan Reeves whose offensive philosophy was run, run, then throw an incomplete 8 yard pass.

Then why the heck they didn't extend tc longer? I don't see any total collapse anytime soon.

I would speculate:

(1) PR...sports is still PR and if I'm taking the "conspiracy theory" approach that they knew this year would be a rough one, they don't want to tell the fan base that and make it seem like Coughlin has carte blanche. Giants fans are a pretty tough group...we want everyone fired.

(2) Coughlin has always said that he coaches on a year to year basis and each year it depends on his health and Judy.

Coughlin is a control freak.

He knows exactly the health status of each of his players.

He just doesn't want to tell you and the press.

Until this teams shows us they suck I will believe there is a reason to have hope. That hope may be gone by halftime of the 1st game but I have hope. I firmly believed the 2007 and 2011 teams would suck. Hell, I think they will suck every year. Except 2008 perhaps.

What's meant by this? Another 6 or fewer wins (which seems likely to me)? Not getting Beason, Cruz, JPP, and Beatty back on the field at the same time this year for more than two-thirds the season, with Schwartz playing fewer than half of the games? Eli completing less than 60% of his passes? D finishing in bottom half in rushing and passing yards allowed with fewer than 40 sacks? I would say that any of these -- not just one or two of them -- would qualify as a total collapse.

In comment 12470130 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

Coughlin is a control freak. He knows exactly the health status of each of his players. He just doesn't want to tell you and the press.

Eric, if he knows the health status of his players, why doesn't he tell Reese to get replacement players when decent replacement players are still available?

that this was a 2 year re-build. Now it looks more like a 3 year job.

I like to think that just plain chance has to see a healthier team in early 2016. This injury-to-starters disease they seem to have acquired cannot possibly continue. I tell myself this every year.

The Giants will have the $ to plug some big holes on defense this off-season. I can see most of the dollars rightfully going to defense with some Oline money thrown in for good measure. That should put the team in a position to make a real run next year. I don't think more staff will be replaced after this year. Unless Coughlin decides to pack it in.

In comment 12469645 Trainmaster said:

Quote:

... unless the season is relatively injury free (one can dream), the team is regularly out coached and Coughlin appears to have "lost the locker room", I agree that Coughlin, McAdoo and Spags aren't going anywhere. Ultimately, it comes down to: 1) A team is in the very top tier/sure SB contender; mortgage the future if necessary to increase the chance of winning this year 2) A team is very close; mortgage some of the long term to win sooner rather than later 3) A team isn't close, but signs are the arrow is pointing up; compromise the current year somewhat for a better future 4) A team is bad and maybe getting worse; blow the whole thing up and start over 2003 Giants were 4) 1990 and maybe 2011 Giants were probably 1) 2011 Cowboys were 2) (Roy Williams deal for example) 2015 Giants are 3) I think ownership believes the 2014 and 2015 drafts have "righted the ship". While not a 5 year project, the coaching and roster changes needed to be competitive again require a multi-year (maybe 3) solution. I think only a record worse than 2014 with a healthy team we send Coughlin packing.

I try to be optimistic, and I'd like to believe the Giants at a 3, but I don't really see any clear sign the arrow is pointing up. What about this team makes you hopeful that they're improving?

Coughlin knows how to coach, they are where they are due to poor personnel decisions. To think they are improving, I'd have to think that the front office is suddenly going to get better at that.

In comment 12469678 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

I tend to agree with Emil here. Unless there is a total collapse, I can't see them firing McAdoo and Spagnuolo, which means Coughlin is safe. I see this as an unusual situation where the coordinators are protecting the head coach.

I've thought the same way and considered posting at one point. To me, it is not about number of wins, it is about what direction the arrow appears to be pointing by the end of the year.

I've not read posts about the contract yet, so I'm not sure if this was discussed, but the most interesting component to the Eli contract is the no trade clause. That is someting you fight hard against if you see your HC on the hot seat.

In comment 12469827 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

they didn't start the rebuild in 2012. That was a mistake. The last few drafts have been better, but the five horrific drafts in a row (which were exacerbated by un-Godly bad career-affecting injuries to 10-12 core players) put the Giants behind the 8-ball. The real rebuild started with switch to McAdoo. They should have fired Fewell last season too.

Eric, I don't think not starting the rebuild in 2012 was a mistake, even though the team fell apart afterwards. As the defending Super Bowl champ you're obligated to defend the title and the Giants looked like title contenders in the first half of the season.

Where Reese made the big mistake was after the 2012 season and those blowout losses in Atlanta and Baltimore. That should have been the sign that the era was over and the total rebuild needed to begin. Instead they tried a patchwork job in 2013, believing the team was still championship caliber and completed screwed the pooch. The failure to realize where the Giants stood after 2012 probably cost us a quicker rebuild and a more competitive season this year

In comment 12469861 gidiefor said:

Quote:

I I mean how many here knocked their picks after pick 3 this year - and all of a sudden it looks like the entire draft class can play (just like last year)

Last year's draft class was Beckham, Richburg, Bromley, Williams, Berhe, Kennard and Jackson. We may have a different definition of "can play". Of that whole class, Beckham is the only one whose talent can't be questioned, IMO, and even he has yet to show he can make it through a full season. Richburg, Williams and Kennard have shown flashes, but none of them has proven themselves as strong, dependable starting players. And Bromley, Berhe and Jackson have proven nothing. The Giants like to hold onto their draft picks- just because these guys make the 53 doesn't mean they're very good.

In comment 12470217 UberAlias said:

Quote:

In comment 12469678 Eric from BBI said: Quote: I tend to agree with Emil here. Unless there is a total collapse, I can't see them firing McAdoo and Spagnuolo, which means Coughlin is safe. I see this as an unusual situation where the coordinators are protecting the head coach. I've thought the same way and considered posting at one point. To me, it is not about number of wins, it is about what direction the arrow appears to be pointing by the end of the year. I've not read posts about the contract yet, so I'm not sure if this was discussed, but the most interesting component to the Eli contract is the no trade clause. That is someting you fight hard against if you see your HC on the hot seat.

The no-trade clause exists at Eli's pleasure. If he ever decides that he doesn't want to be here, he will ask to be traded. This is, after all, the same guy/family that made SD trade his rights.

If your coach is on the hot seat, the last thing you want is to be locked into a QB with a big contract, and despite the consensus here, there are many out there who do not think nearly as highly of Eli as most of us do.

go 6-10 or worse I think the staff is gone. If it's 6-10-8-8 I'd put the odds 75/25 depending on the circumstances of how the season plays out. 9-7 and above and they will be safe.

In comment 12470268 UberAlias said:

Quote:

If your coach is on the hot seat, the last thing you want is to be locked into a QB with a big contract, and despite the consensus here, there are many out there who do not think nearly as highly of Eli as most of us do.

Respectfully, I would think that if a coach was on the hot seat the first thing he'd want is a franchise QB, the last thing would be starting a rookie.

There are many reasons that this team could finish with a poor record but still finish with the arrow pointing up and lots of reasons to be optimistic for next year. Finishing on a strong note and having some of these young guys coming on at the end could easily have them saying, bad season, but we're seeing something here, let's not pull the plug.

In comment 12469831 Eric from BBI said:

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If McAdoo leaves, it makes it easier to blow it up.

where do you people come up with this crazy shit? Who the hell is McAdoo? A fucking position coach that we elevated to OC. All of a sudden he's a prodigy and the font of all hope? Jesus Lord Almighty.

There are enough dunces and screwy ideas here without you feeding them.

In comment 12470275 Bill in UT said:

Quote:

In comment 12470268 UberAlias said: Quote: If your coach is on the hot seat, the last thing you want is to be locked into a QB with a big contract, and despite the consensus here, there are many out there who do not think nearly as highly of Eli as most of us do. Respectfully, I would think that if a coach was on the hot seat the first thing he'd want is a franchise QB, the last thing would be starting a rookie.

Bill -new coaches very often want to bring in their own guy. Look at Chip Kelly for example. And there are a lot of people that could look at someone like Eli and say I need a guy with better moblity to run the offense I want to run, or whatever.

2012 draft was replacing the aging rb and manningham/Nicks and trying to repeat. Rebuilding started the following year with Pugh.

And its not a "we give up" rebuild". If it was, you let Eli play out his contract, draft a qb with your top 3 pick and you go shopping for FA.

This is a slow "maybe we catch lightening in a bottle" rebuild on the fly.

Remember it takes a little luck with players, and any luck we've had has been pretty bad. This would be a different team with a complete Nicks, Snee, Wilson, Thomas. We lost a lot of talent very young.

it's official, the decision has been made. The team will wait until New Year's to explain it though, about why they went 5 - 10.

In comment 12470319 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

it's official, the decision has been made. The team will wait until New Year's to explain it though, about why they went 5 - 10.

and why they didn't even show up to metlife to play the Eagles..hence, only 5-10

In comment 12470333 micky said:

Quote:

In comment 12470319 pjcas18 said: Quote: it's official, the decision has been made. The team will wait until New Year's to explain it though, about why they went 5 - 10. and why they didn't even show up to metlife to play the Eagles..hence, only 5-10

That game is January 3, New Year's is January 1, they might still win that game, but that's when they'll announce it.

In comment 12470286 UberAlias said:

Quote:

In comment 12470275 Bill in UT said: Quote: In comment 12470268 UberAlias said: Quote: If your coach is on the hot seat, the last thing you want is to be locked into a QB with a big contract, and despite the consensus here, there are many out there who do not think nearly as highly of Eli as most of us do. Respectfully, I would think that if a coach was on the hot seat the first thing he'd want is a franchise QB, the last thing would be starting a rookie. Bill -new coaches very often want to bring in their own guy. Look at Chip Kelly for example. And there are a lot of people that could look at someone like Eli and say I need a guy with better moblity to run the offense I want to run, or whatever.

I agree with what you're saying, but before you were talking about a coach on the hot seat, and that would not be the case with a new coach- he would not be expected to win his first year. Additionally, if a new coach came in and was starting from scratch with a makeover, I think Eli would rather hook up with an established program that would have a chance of contending right away.

drafts. This seems to correspond with Reese letting go of control of the draft and/or Gettleman leaving - curious what others think?

But therefore I think Coughlin is safe for now - he's proven willing to change coordinators, and both management and the players respect him.

Curious what they're review of Reese would be. I think it would take a lot for the Giants to let him go, but perhaps he gets pressured to change up his staff just like the Giants helped guide Gilbride out the door

Unless the team completely tanks or bottoms out. If they had an exact repeat of last season, 6-10 he could be gone. Probably gone. But even the slightest bit of process and I think coughlin is retained.

I understand what you are saying about McAdoo, but I disagree in that I think the Giants have a history of getting attached to a select few coordinators. And I think McAdoo is one of those guys. I think they see him as a guy who has begun the resurrection or started to re-energize his career. And they don't want to retard that process. I also think they look at him as a potential successor to Tom Coughlin.

Eli's career

I've been convinced of this since we won our last SB. I'm not really knocking it either because he may deserve it. No way Mara ever fires TC.

This kind of no hope, the sky is falling pessimistic attitude that has infected and spread throughout BBI and is fronted by none other than you Eric is one of the reason why I choose to no longer donate.

Disgusted to see so many hopeless fans.

And manufacture other ways to be un happy, even going so far as to bend reality so as to get more and more sour and miserable.

In comment 12470378 Bill in UT said:

Quote:

I agree with what you're saying, but before you were talking about a coach on the hot seat, and that would not be the case with a new coach- he would not be expected to win his first year. Additionally, if a new coach came in and was starting from scratch with a makeover, I think Eli would rather hook up with an established program that would have a chance of contending right away.

My point was about the team's side of it, not Eli's. I don't think TC is on the hotseat, at least not to the extent people believe. QBs are often tied to the HC and the no trade clause shows a committment to keeping some of this in tact.

I said this back in May and still contend it holds true now and throughout the entire season. Coughlin and his assistant are back for 2016.

repost follows

While reading Pat Traina’s article “New York Giants: Creating the Blueprint for Optimal Defense in 2015” I thought more about the “Win or Else” mantra that is commonly espoused on BBI and many Giants beat writers. In Pat’s article, she included the link for the 30 December interview with the Giants President & CEO John Mara, where at the end of the interview Mr. Mara was asked …..

Q: Would you describe next year as a win-or-else proposition for a lot of people in this franchise?
A: I do not think that is an unfair statement.

That answer has led some to interpret it to mean that if the Giants do not achieve a winning record (9-7 or better), the Giants will undergo a major house cleaning of its coaching staff, management, scouting, and players in 2016. Looking back on that interview and the actions taken by the team since then, does the “Win or Else” mantra still hold true and to what extent?


Look at the points made by Mr. Mara during the 30 December interview and Giants actions taken since then.


On Coach Coughlin:

Mr. Mara comment: “Steve Tisch and I still feel very strongly about Tom Coughlin as our head coach. That is why, as many of you have already reported, we have asked him back for next season. We still believe in him. I believe the players still feel very strongly about him and the one thing that struck me during the season, even as bad as things got during that seven-game losing streak, they still played hard for him. There was no lack of effort there. They were still very attentive during practice and on the sidelines and their effort never waned, even though the results were not what we had hoped for. “

2015 actions taken. Coach Coughlin received a 1 year extension.

Interpretation: I interpret that to mean the Giants still believe in Coach Coughlin, however, Coughlin (along with the rest of the team’s coach’s, scouts and management) must demonstrate improvement to get a longer commitment from the Giants.


Confidence in Jerry Reese (and scouting by extension).

Mr. Mara comment: I still believe, very strongly, in Jerry Reese and our organization. We have a lot of quality people working here. We have had two very strong drafts in a row. We need to have another one. I think with that and with another year under this new offense, we have a chance to be a good team next year. Obviously, that is a tough sell right now when you go 7-9 and 6-10, but I still have a very strong belief in this staff and in this organization. I think we are going to be a good team next year, but we need another strong draft. We need to make certain improvements on both sides of the ball, which we will address this offseason and then we will move forward.

2015 actions taken. Free agency and the draft have brought in youth and targeted additions to the team. The OL (e.g. Flowers, Newhouse, Hart, Jerry) and DL (Ellis, Selvie, Odighizuwa) have been addressed, as has special teams (Harris, Thomas and Casillas), 3rd down back (Vareen), safety (Collins, Gordy, Bennett, and Thompson) and linebacker (Thomas, Casillas).

Interpretation: The team has made personnel / talent / youth improvements; however the improvement is largely incremental as everything cannot be fixed in one year. Another 1 to 2 years of similar improvements will be needed to restore the Giants to a serious playoff contender. This is the legacy of poor drafting results between 2009 to 2012


On the injuries.

Mr. Mara comment: I think that one of the things that really hurt us this year, in addition to the injuries, which I will get to in a second, is we obviously have a couple draft classes here that have been largely unproductive for us. When you combine that with the number of injuries we had, particularly with certain key positions, that is a deadly combination in the National Football League. I am very frustrated about the number of injuries that we have had. It has been two years in a row now that we have led the league in putting players on [injured reserve] and number of games lost by starters. We spent so much time last offseason addressing that and talking about how we are going to fix that going forward. We made adjustments to what was being done in the weight room. We had the GPS tracking system. For some reason, here we are again leading the league in that category. We cut down the number of soft-tissue injuries and then, all of a sudden, we get all these broken bones and torn tendons and torn biceps. I just don’t have an answer for that right now. Obviously we will spend a lot of time on it this offseason, talking about that and looking at ways that we can improve upon that.

2015 actions taken. The actions taken by the Giants to change their injury history are largely invisible. The strength and conditioning coach remains unchanged.

Interpretation: The Giants could have implemented some changes that we are not seeing; however, another soft tissue injury has already occurred (Beatty) that already threatens the season 4 months before the kickoff. The minor injuries seen in the OTAs are not (yet) concerning (e.g. Ayers ankle, Donnell tendonitis). The Giants improvements are inconclusive and bear further scrutiny. Something has to change to prevent recurrence. The success of the 2015 Giants depends on their best players staying healthy and the productive return of key veterans who were lost to injury last season (e.g. Cruz, Beason).


Overhauling the Defense.

Mr. Mara comments:

Re: anticipating any changes on the coaching staff?
A: That is a discussion we are going to have going forward, but that will be Tom’s decision.

Q: Last year, you talked about fixing the offense… Is the defense something in your mind that has to get straightened out?
A: In my opinion, yes. That will be a discussion that we will have. Our defense did not play well this year. There is no secret about that when you finish 28th or 29th or wherever we finished. They had opportunities in a lot of games this year to make a key stop at the end of the game, and they didn’t do it. There is no question that has to be a focus going into next season. You look at the number of players that we got hurt here. We had three or four corners hurt. We were playing in a lot of those games with guys we had signed off the street, which is not the ideal situation. Again, that is no excuse for going 6-10 and, believe me, I am not under any illusions about where we are right now. I am aware of what teams we have beaten over the last two years and what teams we have lost to. We have a lot of work to do.

Q: How would you describe the state of your defense right now?
A: We need to improve the defense. They did not play well. We were
ranked where we were ranked. When you give up the number of game-winning drives that they gave up, we obviously have a lot of improvement to make there.

2015 actions taken. Fewell is gone, Spags is back. With the return of DC Spagnuolo, many hope for a return to defensive prominence. Can the magic be repeated? Cornerbacks Coach Tim Walton joins the Giants from the St Louis Rams where he was the Defensive Coordinator. Quarterbacks Coach Mike Sullivan returns to the Giants (after 3 years with the Buccaneers) with hopes of continuing to improve Manning’s performance in the second year of McAdoo’s offense. Last year’s QB coach, Sean Ryan, reverts back to Wide Receiver coach where he had been from 2010 to 2011.

The DL has been reinforced (Kiwanuka gone, Selvie, Ellis and Odighizuwa added and maturation of Moore.), as has the LBs (Williams and Paysinger are gone, Thomas and Casillas added, Beason healthy and Kennard in his second year). The Safety position has been completed changed with the departure of Rolle and addition of Collins, Gordy and Thompson, plus the healthy return of Taylor and Berhe).

Interpretation. The changes made appear to be good ones. The Giants have a new DC, a more aggressive scheme and improved coach & player communication all paired with a definite youth movement. Now it needs to translate on the field. Time will tell.

===========

Conclusion and NY Giants Outlook: All of the actions mentioned above take the Giants back to the original question: Is this a “Win or Else” season, and have the Giants done enough?

IMO, the Giants are in year 2 of a 3 year rebuilding effort, and an 8-8 or better season should be enough for the Giants to retain the core of the coaching staff (HC, OC, DC). The Giants appear to be taking an incremental approach (a 1 year extension of Coughlin) as part of that multi-year rebuilding effort. With the recent investments made in the McAdoo offense and Spags defense, the idea of changing Head Coaches in 2016 risks retooling the offense and defense (assuming the new HC brings in his coordinators) and wastes the last few years of Eli Manning’s career window.

My focus will be on the S&C and the OL coaching staff. These areas need to see player improvements.

The key is staying healthy and having the young players develop and contribute.

Unless the players quit on the team and Tom Coughlin this season, then Coughlin is retained for the 2016 season, and 2016 becomes the make it or break it season.

Discuss……

The Giants roster is very weak compared to the rest of the league there is no denying that. Offense can be good, but unless some of these young players step up and get somewhere it's going to be a long ass season.

but this is obviously a down year prognosis. Things can work out fantastically, but I'm not counting on it.

The real problem, IMO, is that I don't think they really did much to continue a rebuild. FA really didn't do much to address obvious needs other than special teams. So, we're counting on a couple of years worth of draft to step up to the plate. Drafting is what got us into the mess we're in now.

Draftees need to step up or this year is a step back.

I'm a pessimist, but I'm growing more pessimist by the year. I'm thinking we're in for a long bad stretch of years, and then the rebuild will begin, when whatever group dynamic that is assembling this team (Mara, Mara, TC, Reese, pro/college analysts, etc) is blown completely out of the water and we readjust to a dynamic that works.