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Francessa just hit it right on the head.

Shadow : 9/21/2015 2:32 pm
If Management was going to take away the operations from Tom Coughlin by deciding who his staff is going to be and his offense, They should have just replaced him and said thank you. This team seems like its being run by two different strategies
yep. they have been trying to patch things together since 2012  
Victor in CT : 9/21/2015 2:34 pm : link
with half measures. the time for difficult decisions is coming
or the press is filled with idiots  
giants#1 : 9/21/2015 2:35 pm : link
and TC had more of a say in the recent coaching staff changes than they let on.
It would be interesting to see Eli  
Chef : 9/21/2015 2:35 pm : link
under a different regime..
He's made that point the last 2 years  
jeff57 : 9/21/2015 2:35 pm : link
.
16-26 since 2012  
micky : 9/21/2015 2:35 pm : link
I knew it had been rough last few seasons, but didn't realize their record was that far under .500
"The Giants  
natefit : 9/21/2015 2:36 pm : link
have not been a good football team for the last 3 years...they are a mediocre to poor football team". Impossible to argue this imo.
they forced him to  
bluepepper : 9/21/2015 2:37 pm : link
fire both his OC and DC after '06 and that worked out fine.
RE:  
Chef : 9/21/2015 2:40 pm : link
In comment 12497591 natefit said:
Quote:
have not been a good football team for the last 3 years...they are a mediocre to poor football team". Impossible to argue this imo.


Thanks Mike.. I am sure most of us were not aware of that..
Coughlin defintely has input on this offense.  
drkenneth : 9/21/2015 2:41 pm : link
I'd be shocked if he didn't. The signs are there.
He's right but he's missed the point  
arniefez : 9/21/2015 2:43 pm : link
They had to change the schemes and asst. coaches because the game has passed Coughlin by. Which is no surprise or crime at almost 70 years old. The Mara's have tried to honor a coach they have immense respect and fondness for. A coach they will put in their ring of honor, A coach that won 2 Super Bowls for the franchise. But they've probably done him a disservice. He's never going to retire and the game has passed him by. So now they'll have to fire him anyway and he goes out looking really bad. Coughlin could have made it really easy for everyone if he retired after 2011. It was the perfect time and the perfect script. He would have gone out a hero and probably to the Hall of Fame. Now it's highly unlikely he makes the Hall of Fame any time soon if ever with a .530 winning percentage even with the 2 Super Bowls.
Francesa says this every once in a while  
nygiants16 : 9/21/2015 2:43 pm : link
and then he will make a comment like do you really think Coughlin didnt have a say in who he hired for his staff...

He goes back and forth, when the Giant win Coughlin is in control and when they Loss it is Coughlin does not have control...

Is hiring Spags someone who has already worked for Coughlin before really that big of an adjustment for Coughlin???

If we don't win Thurs  
Simms11 : 9/21/2015 2:45 pm : link
not only will this place be ugly, but the NY media will be out for blood. This is starting to look like TCs swan song, but I'm hoping the guy still can get the job done this year and prove all the doubters wrong.
drkenneth  
arniefez : 9/21/2015 2:45 pm : link
The defense too. It was pretty surprising when Spags was asked about Cooper last week he said "coach decides who is up each week". Interesting information.
Coughlin has his warts  
shabu : 9/21/2015 2:47 pm : link
TC has his warts.. but he is a great coach. The only thing i can imagine he is responsible for is the injuries due to his old school military style lifting program which as i understand has not changed.

Look at this roster. Its terrible.
if this continues will mara  
sundayatone : 9/21/2015 2:47 pm : link
clean house from reese to tom? it may be the only thing we will be talking and wondering about for this season.
this team has been sloppy for 10 years  
Stu11 : 9/21/2015 2:48 pm : link
stupid offensive penalties like false starts and delay of games. I love Tom and will be ever grateful for the 2 super bowl runs and regular trips to the playoffs until 2011. However his "attention to detail" has never rubbed off on this team no matter who he was forced or not to hire as coordinators. The super D line, clutchness of Eli and a smattering of star performances (Tiki prior to '07,Cruz/Nicks in 2011, Plax 05-07)on offense coupled with the grittiness of the O-line and backs like Bradshaw and Jacobs covered up a lot of silly mistakes that cost us games over the years.
Coughlin  
BigBlueCane : 9/21/2015 2:51 pm : link
is more qualified then anyone else in the Front office to be doing their jobs at this point.
The truth is there is enough blame for all  
David B. : 9/21/2015 2:51 pm : link
And you could argue Reese is MORE to blame, but the coach ALWAYS takes the fall, and the Giants don't fire GMs.

If they were to fire Reese, you can bet the next GM would be Ross. But they won't Reese, so it's moot.

I actually DON'T think MOST of this years problems are on TC, but the clock management stuff is. At his age, he should be delegating that already.

Do people really think  
nygiants16 : 9/21/2015 2:51 pm : link
Mara would force Coughlin to take on coaches that he didnt approve of?

Think about that, Coughlin's job is on the line and you think he is going to go into a season with coaches he doesnt have confidence in and trusts?

That makes zero sense, this is not the Jets, that make a GM keep the coach...Mara is not going to force things on Coughlin, he is not going to do that to coach that he is a ton of respect for..
THis is just Francesa's way  
nygiants16 : 9/21/2015 2:53 pm : link
of taking the blame off of Coughlin and putting it on the organization, basically he is saying Coughlin is just a figure head and not making any decisions, i call Bullshit...
he clearly  
MookGiants : 9/21/2015 2:53 pm : link
did force change with his coordinators multiple times.
RE: drkenneth  
drkenneth : 9/21/2015 2:53 pm : link
In comment 12497616 arniefez said:
Quote:
The defense too. It was pretty surprising when Spags was asked about Cooper last week he said "coach decides who is up each week". Interesting information.


Yup...Mike flip flops on this:

-First, when BM was hired: "It's still Tom's offense"

-Then (& Now): They are undermining him.

RE: The truth is there is enough blame for all  
drkenneth : 9/21/2015 2:55 pm : link
In comment 12497634 David B. said:
Quote:
And you could argue Reese is MORE to blame, but the coach ALWAYS takes the fall, and the Giants don't fire GMs.

If they were to fire Reese, you can bet the next GM would be Ross. But they won't Reese, so it's moot.

I actually DON'T think MOST of this years problems are on TC, but the clock management stuff is. At his age, he should be delegating that already.


So I guess St. Tommy isn't responsible for anything. It's Reese's fault this team is 0-2.
Could not agree more.  
nyynyg : 9/21/2015 2:57 pm : link
We are going on season 3 of limbo, season 3. It is ridiculous. And for that, I blame Reese and I blame Mara. Because the full coaching change should have happening two years ago, not last year but the year before in fact. All the evidence is there, the need for coaching changes and the total neutering by forcing the coaching changes that needed to be made.

Now we have no idea how much meddling or in between approaches things are. Couple that with the talent issues and you get what you get.

But this is not just a TC mistake, this is a result of the FO not making the hard decisions a couple of years ago and doing the full rebuild then.
Mike is an idiot  
AP in Halfmoon : 9/21/2015 3:02 pm : link
What is he seeing that looks like the team is using 2 different strategies? He should stick to baseball
There are no full rebuilds  
AP in Halfmoon : 9/21/2015 3:03 pm : link
In today's NFL.
RE: Could not agree more.  
Shadow : 9/21/2015 3:04 pm : link
In comment 12497654 nyynyg said:
Quote:


But this is not just a TC mistake, this is a result of the FO not making the hard decisions a couple of years ago and doing the full rebuild then.



This^^^^^
RE: Mike is an idiot  
nygiants16 : 9/21/2015 3:05 pm : link
In comment 12497668 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
What is he seeing that looks like the team is using 2 different strategies? He should stick to baseball


It is his way of taking blame off of Coughlin, he does this every time the Giants lose, he did it last year also...

He would say oh Coughlin is being undermined and then after a win a caller will call in saying the same exact thing and then he would cut him off and call him an idiot for thinking that Coughlin does not have full control...
RE: 16-26 since 2012  
The_Boss : 9/21/2015 3:06 pm : link
In comment 12497589 micky said:
Quote:
I knew it had been rough last few seasons, but didn't realize their record was that far under .500


I've been saying the same here for over the last 3 weeks. We're a bottom third franchise in both talent and record. And it doesn't look to be improving. Instead it's getting worse. A Dallas fan just called in and pretty much nailed it: other than 4-5 players, the roster is just awful. I've said it before when a lot of posters here bring up Reese's "successful" drafts over the last 3 years and I'll say it again: When are these drafts going to impact the record in a positive way?
RE: RE: 16-26 since 2012  
Victor in CT : 9/21/2015 3:11 pm : link
In comment 12497684 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 12497589 micky said:


Quote:


I knew it had been rough last few seasons, but didn't realize their record was that far under .500



I've been saying the same here for over the last 3 weeks. We're a bottom third franchise in both talent and record. And it doesn't look to be improving. Instead it's getting worse. A Dallas fan just called in and pretty much nailed it: other than 4-5 players, the roster is just awful. I've said it before when a lot of posters here bring up Reese's "successful" drafts over the last 3 years and I'll say it again: When are these drafts going to impact the record in a positive way?


I've been saying it since last year.
If this team is so problematic why was the QB rewarded with  
Mason : 9/21/2015 3:14 pm : link
an $84 million extension? Can't have it both ways.
IMO  
mrvax : 9/21/2015 3:23 pm : link
They don't have enough good starters healthy to be any better than 8-8 no matter who the coaches are.
Maybe because  
Doomster : 9/21/2015 3:23 pm : link
they won't commit to a complete rebuild, after all, they are are only 2 or 3 players away.....
RE: RE: Could not agree more.  
DelZotto : 9/21/2015 3:27 pm : link
In comment 12497674 Shadow said:
Quote:
In comment 12497654 nyynyg said:


Quote:




But this is not just a TC mistake, this is a result of the FO not making the hard decisions a couple of years ago and doing the full rebuild then.




This^^^^^


Looking a lot like the late 60's and the 70's, as nice a man as Wellington Mara was he was a lousy judge of talent, it seems like his son's have inherited his evaluations of what an NFL franchise should look like. There is always next year a Mara staple back in the day.
RE: RE: RE: Could not agree more.  
sundayatone : 9/21/2015 3:38 pm : link
In comment 12497758 DelZotto said:
Quote:
In comment 12497674 Shadow said:


Quote:


In comment 12497654 nyynyg said:


Quote:




But this is not just a TC mistake, this is a result of the FO not making the hard decisions a couple of years ago and doing the full rebuild then.




This^^^^^



Looking a lot like the late 60's and the 70's, as nice a man as Wellington Mara was he was a lousy judge of talent, it seems like his son's have inherited his evaluations of what an NFL franchise should look like. There is always next year a Mara staple back in the day.


a plane with we had enough of this lousy football banner and ticket burning in the parking lot really happened.
RE: RE: Mike is an idiot  
Arcanum : 9/21/2015 3:50 pm : link
In comment 12497678 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 12497668 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


What is he seeing that looks like the team is using 2 different strategies? He should stick to baseball



It is his way of taking blame off of Coughlin, he does this every time the Giants lose, he did it last year also...

He would say oh Coughlin is being undermined and then after a win a caller will call in saying the same exact thing and then he would cut him off and call him an idiot for thinking that Coughlin does not have full control...


Basically!! TC has control, don't be fooled by the bullsh*t. TC is right there when guys get drafted or signed to this team. Just look at what happened in Jacksonville. That team is just now recovering from the bullsh*t. As long as people keep blaming everyone else and not TC, this team will continue to be ass. I don't get, how you can want to fire a GM but not the damn coach. Regardless of coordinators come here, they're still under TC regime. A regime that's no longer effective.
No one should be setting  
nyynyg : 9/21/2015 3:50 pm : link
anything on fire or flying planes with banners overhead. That is more ridiculous than the situation we are in by a mile. We have SB victories in 07 and 11. As a franchise we have lot to be happy for. There are many fan bases that would want what we have. This is not the 70's.
Doomster  
stretch234 : 9/21/2015 3:50 pm : link
What is a complete rebuild in the NFL. They have turned over the entire roster in 3 years.

Per league rules you do have to have 90 players for camp and 53 for the roster

You get 7 draft picks per year -

how do you completely rebuild, unless you are talking coach & QB
RE: RE: 16-26 since 2012  
Arcanum : 9/21/2015 4:01 pm : link
In comment 12497684 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 12497589 micky said:


Quote:


I knew it had been rough last few seasons, but didn't realize their record was that far under .500



I've been saying the same here for over the last 3 weeks. We're a bottom third franchise in both talent and record. And it doesn't look to be improving. Instead it's getting worse. A Dallas fan just called in and pretty much nailed it: other than 4-5 players, the roster is just awful. I've said it before when a lot of posters here bring up Reese's "successful" drafts over the last 3 years and I'll say it again: When are these drafts going to impact the record in a positive way?



Good question. But look at the guy that were drafted since 2007, and are no longer on this team because an injury has ruined his career. Steve Smith, MM, Nicks, Ballard, Wilson, Snee, Chad jones, JPP, just to name a few. Other than Snee, these guys aren't even 30 yet. And aren't playing football anymore. That's not easy for a team to recover from. 3 seasons of leading the league in injuries(or close to it)has set this roster way back.
Guys  
Arcanum : 9/21/2015 4:03 pm : link
*
doesn't make any sense  
giantfan2000 : 9/21/2015 4:50 pm : link
changing coordinators is part of HC job
Coordinators leave all the time for better opportunities
or they get fired

by Fatty's logic -- TC should have retired in 2008 because he lost Spags
TC  
Dragon : 9/21/2015 5:24 pm : link
Got the stay of execution two years past which is the fault of higher management and the cause of what we have been seeing as of today since. No matter how you say it or look at it this team is not prepared to play on game days. The offense and defense are not ready to adjust during games as other teams do, the ability to plan ahead is proven greatly lacking weekly. The decisions on the roster and veterans playing is just terrible, injuries are no longer something for us to pray against its now how many each week.

Those who are calling for JR firing have to ask themselves when was the last time JR made a defensive or offensive call in a game? The coach has to be held responsible when the players are not performing but when have we seen TC hold any of his chosen players responsible. Everybody was Eli and TC are protecting each other after the 1st game, now its they just need to finish the 4th quarter. What in the hell have they been doing for the last six months that they can't even finish a game?

Even if they win on Thursday this team will only tease us into false hope until the next crap event on the field. Eli is the leader of this team we just resigned him but in truth he is a very key figure in both these losses not good from our team leader. We all know his faults the strange thing is he seems to keep adding to them not improving each year. He will never be a high completion QB or a great athlete but the veteran knowledge has to shine through each week.

We should all be honest what we saw in the preseason has not improved it's only gotten more complicated. We never saw Cruz in game action, JPP needs to be resolved sooner rather than later. Is this a passing team or running team seems like they need to just say lets have some fun and pass it most of the day. This offense was supposed to be way ahead of the defense but the defense is playing much better than the offense and with some help from the offense the team would be 2-0 and not 0-2.

The next question becomes if they can't right this ship at what point is TC given his walking papers? If at mid season the team is once again out of playoff contention then do they say lets see what we have in our young players under a coach who is not the coach of the future. It's sad but we are here because two years past the wrong choice was made to keep a HC who had proven it's time to move on.
Dragon  
Shadow : 9/21/2015 5:29 pm : link
gets it.
^^^^^^
This is a problem that can only be settled by Management.
Agreed.  
eclipz928 : 9/21/2015 6:31 pm : link
Coughlin should have been dismissed at the same time with Gilbride. I'm not sure that two championship seasons outweigh the other 8 seasons that were coached without a playoff win. It would have been a tough call, but the last two consecutive seasons without a playoff appearance should have ended the run for TC here. And of course no coach, including Super Bowl-winning coaches, have ever survived after three consecutive seasons outside of the playoffs until management brought back TC this year.
No excuses  
Mike in Marin : 9/21/2015 6:33 pm : link
but thanks to injuries and especially lack of talent, this team is not that good. To blame the coach overall is ridiculous.
I'm curious, who is better than Coughlin?  
AP in Halfmoon : 9/21/2015 6:39 pm : link
Or is it change for the sake of change? Look at the teams who fire coaches to appease fans. How successful are they?
RE: or the press is filled with idiots  
HomerJones45 : 9/21/2015 6:50 pm : link
In comment 12497585 giants#1 said:
Quote:
and TC had more of a say in the recent coaching staff changes than they let on.
Ya think? Coughlin is a two-time Super Bowl winning coach with a long resume. No one was forcing him to sack anyone he didn't want to, and anyone who actually thinks so is a moron. Was changing out coordinators discussed, sure. Was he "forced" to fire anyone? No. He would have told Mara to go fuck himself and gotten a job somewhere else.
There are many reasons why  
ciggy : 9/21/2015 7:03 pm : link
The Giants have not been successful in recent years. Injuries, bad drafting, maybe even bad coaching at times. But for some armchair genius on BBI to pontificate that the game has passed Coughlin by is ludicrous. Tell me exactly how you have made that informed judgement please.

I get that we as fans are mad and want to blame everyone. But some of the shit that people say is just fucking stupid.
RE: TC  
Arcanum : 9/21/2015 7:18 pm : link
In comment 12498082 Dragon said:
Quote:
Got the stay of execution two years past which is the fault of higher management and the cause of what we have been seeing as of today since. No matter how you say it or look at it this team is not prepared to play on game days. The offense and defense are not ready to adjust during games as other teams do, the ability to plan ahead is proven greatly lacking weekly. The decisions on the roster and veterans playing is just terrible, injuries are no longer something for us to pray against its now how many each week.

Those who are calling for JR firing have to ask themselves when was the last time JR made a defensive or offensive call in a game? The coach has to be held responsible when the players are not performing but when have we seen TC hold any of his chosen players responsible. Everybody was Eli and TC are protecting each other after the 1st game, now its they just need to finish the 4th quarter. What in the hell have they been doing for the last six months that they can't even finish a game?

Even if they win on Thursday this team will only tease us into false hope until the next crap event on the field. Eli is the leader of this team we just resigned him but in truth he is a very key figure in both these losses not good from our team leader. We all know his faults the strange thing is he seems to keep adding to them not improving each year. He will never be a high completion QB or a great athlete but the veteran knowledge has to shine through each week.

We should all be honest what we saw in the preseason has not improved it's only gotten more complicated. We never saw Cruz in game action, JPP needs to be resolved sooner rather than later. Is this a passing team or running team seems like they need to just say lets have some fun and pass it most of the day. This offense was supposed to be way ahead of the defense but the defense is playing much better than the offense and with some help from the offense the team would be 2-0 and not 0-2.

The next question becomes if they can't right this ship at what point is TC given his walking papers? If at mid season the team is once again out of playoff contention then do they say lets see what we have in our young players under a coach who is not the coach of the future. It's sad but we are here because two years past the wrong choice was made to keep a HC who had proven it's time to move on.


Excellent post!
RE: I'm curious, who is better than Coughlin?  
Arcanum : 9/21/2015 7:29 pm : link
In comment 12498250 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
Or is it change for the sake of change? Look at the teams who fire coaches to appease fans. How successful are they?



So, when would you say it's time to change the head coach ? I can guarantee, that no other team will hire TC for a head coach, once he's gone. Thank god for the 2 Super Bowls. But these last few years under TC has been brutal. And I don't just mean the games when the giants couldn't even score a damn point.. I mean all around. It's getting to the point, where it's becoming embarrassing.
That depends  
AP in Halfmoon : 9/21/2015 7:36 pm : link
The Jacksonville owner said he would hire him in a minute. As far as change, it's too early. Get back to me in December
What evidence do you guys have the game has passed Tom Coughlin by?  
hudson : 9/21/2015 7:36 pm : link
I maintain the Giants struggles is due to Jerruh Resse, bad scouting, bad coordinators...before Coughlin.
I think it has been the talent which is by far most responsible...including Eli.

The difference between 0-2 and 2-0 this season is a consistent QB, and Eli is a good QB but not a great QB.
This is more a reflection on Eli and the front office.
all  
blue42 : 9/21/2015 7:59 pm : link
of this makes me laugh when I see the Ben McAdoo is going to be the next head coach.

Based on what???
those of us calling for JR  
BigBlueCane : 9/21/2015 8:00 pm : link
have noted and made abundantly clear, the lack of talent on the roster which has led to bad calls and bad players having to be on the field to make mistakes. Thats why their bad players.

Jints central needs to be purged by fire. Reese, Ross and Ken Sternfeld (Gettleman's sucessor) need to be replaced.
RE: Could not agree more.  
shabu : 9/21/2015 8:02 pm : link
In comment 12497654 nyynyg said:
Quote:
We are going on season 3 of limbo, season 3. It is ridiculous. And for that, I blame Reese and I blame Mara. Because the full coaching change should have happening two years ago, not last year but the year before in fact. All the evidence is there, the need for coaching changes and the total neutering by forcing the coaching changes that needed to be made.

Now we have no idea how much meddling or in between approaches things are. Couple that with the talent issues and you get what you get.

But this is not just a TC mistake, this is a result of the FO not making the hard decisions a couple of years ago and doing the full rebuild then.


u honestly think any coach could come in here and do a better job with this roster ? no LBs, Mediocre OL, Mediocre DL, saftey LOL, TE LOL, RBs meh. Its just MEH MEH MEH and the units that are deent WR, CB, are 1 injury away from SUCK.
we should be 2-0...  
blue42 : 9/21/2015 8:03 pm : link
It's not Coughlin....our QB....good as he is has blown two consecutive games.
We have two factors working here...  
EricJ : 9/21/2015 9:23 pm : link
1. lack of talent which is not entirely TC's fault.
2. TC's reluctance to trust young players at times and his conservative game plan. You can sense them trying to run out the clock for the entire second half once they had a lead. Going into a shell and folding the tents.
The only thing that scares me about TC  
shabu : 9/21/2015 9:31 pm : link
The only thing that scares me about TC is that it may be the military lifting style that he employs that is causing so many injuries...

Who knows about that and i truly hope its not true. I think the roster needs work but I truly like TC at helm with our 2 coordinators right now.

The roster is the problem right now there are just not enough playmakers on defense and the Offense still has holes. If Cruz doesn't come back strong its even worse.
Unbelievable how ungrateful some of you  
Ned In Atlanta : 9/22/2015 12:02 am : link
mouth breathers are. We beat the greatest team of the generation TWICE in the big game in TC's time here. He's the coach as long as he wants to be as far as i'm concerned. These two weeks haven't been pretty but the roster is medicore at best
Why is Reese to blame?  
SHO'NUFF : 9/22/2015 2:22 am : link
and not bad positional coaching? If Reese brings in the same guys and a competent position coach coaches them up properly, then Reese is a genius, right? Yeah, those guys that got cut didn't make other rosters, but by now, they are damaged goods by reputation alone. Maybe if they got proper coaching from Day 1, they would have been picked up or never cut in the first place. I'm just saying, too much heat is put on Reese, and rightfully so, but nobody questions Flaherty, Nunn, KG Jr., etc...guys that TC are loyal to.
Francessa just hit it right on the head  
johnboyw : 9/22/2015 6:16 am : link
Let me say a couple of things about Tom Coughlin. First, he is a good man. Solid, consistent, reliable. A guy you can count on. Second, he has been a damn good football coach over the course of his career. I don't think anyone would argue with that. He has won everyone he has been and his longevity speaks for itself. When all is said and done, he will be remembered as one of the best coaches and best people in the game.
That said, I am seeing something in the first two games that is disturbing. He is not sharp. He is not on top of things the way he has always been and the way you would expect him to be. That lack of laser focus in crucial situations and inability to devise and communicate the appropriate plan has cost them both games. This is not the Tom Coughlin we have all come to know. In the past, he would have been all over these situations with pinpoint precision.
What I believe has happened is that he has "hit the wall" in his career that all of us will someday hit in ours where age catches up and the ability to quickly process and improvise does not come as easy as it once did. I am starting to see that same look on his face that Eddie Robinson (Grambling) and Joe Paterno (Penn State) had when it was obvious they had stayed too long in their jobs. In those two cases, each was allowed to write his own ticket and it cost each program in different ways. Based on what I am seeing in the first two games, I believe the same may be true for Coughlin. He is missing things now he would never have missed in prior years and, unfortunately, that is not likely to reverse itself. The mind quietly wears down with the body.
As for Eli, he is what he is. A slow processor who needs to be told what to do. You don't want to leave crucial, thought-provoking situations in his hands.
Right now, It's not clear to me who is steering the ship but I think the time for major change has arrived.
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