Far from Convinced about Giants

-Tom Coughlin

I think most understand this could either way...that's why the stadium was so subdued on Thursday.

We have to beat some teams who will be favored to beat us. And we MUST beat the Cowboys and at least split with the Eagles.

I'll accept the Giants may have as much chance as any team in the division. That means Giants have a one in 4 chance to win division.

will a win against Buffalo impress you? Wondering if you'll just change your tune and say that Buffalo must not be any good.

Lots of people around here thought we'd get blown out in Dallas. Instead, only a couple of blown calls by the refs handed Dallas the game.

Lots of people thought Washington was going to run over us. Turns out our run defense was better than people gave us credit for.

Now I read people saying we aren't a playoff team and Buffalo will expose us. Will you be convinced if the Giants find a way to win on Sunday?

The two games they "blew" were both against teams that are arguably top 6 in the NFL.

What the "lack of talent" crew overlooks is that new talent emerges. So, yes, in terms of established veterans Giants lack talent. But they have a lot of young guys who are developing: Flowers, Richberg, Pugh, Kennard, Wynn, Unga, Collins. That's where the improvement is going to come from.

Also, "the lack of talent" posters also overlooked how much better the offense would be in its second year. And how much Spags would be able to mix and match different skill sets on D.

Is that we win the division. Tell me why we can't be better than a Romo/Dez less team, a crappy Eagle team (so far), and the Redskins, whom we just destroyed. Eli doesn't have to prove anything to me. Fells is a good TE and with a mostly healthy Cruz, and the resurgence of Randle, our offense is way better than Buffalo's.

One win is one win. Still, I think we're passing the eye test a bit better than we have in the past few years.

Who cares what you think

elite (e.g. Patriots, Packers), nor a "dumpster fire" (e.g. 49ers, Bears). We "gave away" at least one, maybe two games we should have won. In this parity driven league, one can afford to do that much, if at all.

Most of us can make some reasonable case for the Giants being closer to elite or closer to terrible. A key wild card is injuries. If the Giants are able to stay healthier than their NFC East rivals, they have a chance to win the division and hence make the playoffs.

Bottom line, it's just too soon to know.

can't afford to do that ...

Barring the turnovers we were severely outplayed in dallas and should have lost that game.

We outplayed atlanta and blew that game.

Then we handled the less talented washingtons and won a game we should have.

Now comes buffalo without one of their best offensive players in Mccoy. Should we be favored? I think so based on the fact their starting qb is a rookie in his first month in the NFL.

They can't be a good team. They are a lot younger then they have been in years and for what it's worth this has the potential to be a building block year if nothing else. I like what they are doing along the offensive line. Richburg, Pugh, and Flowers are all young studs who will be there for awhile. Schwartz was a reliable versitile player in KC before he came here and got hurt. And they have depth.

The defense is young and learning Spags system. Sure they have had coverage problems particularly in the middle of the field and those two drives against Dallas in the fourth quarter were killers. But it shouldn't even have come down to that in the end.

Bottom line. They have been in every game and have played hard to the very end. You can't ask more then that. And the fact they are so young will make watching them play and grow as the season progresses interesting to monitor. This is definitely a team on the rise. It may not happen this year but if you are not convinced this team has potential to be a playoff contender sooner then later you have that right. I just happen to see it that way.

Going in, I thought we'd get blown out @ Dallas, but barring the inexplicable mental collapse by our coaching staff (on both sides of the ball in the 4th quarter), we should have won that game.

A positive turn-over ratio has always been (and will remain to be) an unquestioned hallmark of winning teams. Keep taking the ball away and giving your offense to score (while resting your defense) and NOT give the ball away is always a good thing.

Didn't I see a thread about that?

You don't have to be convinced, Joe. Be hopeful. Lots of reasons to be hopeful!

In comment 12514965 blueblood'11 said:

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Bottom line. They have been in every game and have played hard to the very end. You can't ask more then that. And the fact they are so young will make watching them play and grow as the season progresses interesting to monitor. This is definitely a team on the rise.

You hit the nail on the head.

Didn't I see a thread about that?

You don't have to be convinced, Joe. Be hopeful. Lots of reasons to be hopeful!

no one should be convinced that the Giants are for real.

And no one should be convinced that the Giants are NOT for real.

We haven't seen enough to conclude anything just yet. But we have seen signs that this team could be tough to deal with and if you sit here today and say with certainty that this team will suck, you're just making assumptions at this point.

I can't say that the Giants will or will not win 10 games. I just don't know enough but I wouldn't turn my back on a Coughlin/Eli led team.

,

Why do people feel the need to project how the team will actually finish after 3 games?! I'm so tired of hearing the talking heads project who will be where or who has the best chance to win the division at such an early stage! Just take it one week at a time. I wait all offseason for this great game to start up and to hear this nonsense so early in the season just annoys the heck out of me!

Now we wait and see how the team performs as it gets healthy, given many of their best players have been out of action.

and a lot can happen health wise to both giants and opponents. obviously there are some talent gaps that aren't going to be addressed in season. if the giants can get out of their own way and not make the unforced errors that haunted them the first couple of weeks, and can stay reasonably healthy, anything can happen. I've like what I've seen out of the defense and special teams and the offense has improved every week.

Even against the Redskins they made a ton of errors, but were able to make enough plays to overcome them. That delta must shrink in order to beat better football teams.

You have to be able to beat Dallas and Philly in div first. Haven't for awhile. Beat a good team like NE etc. I know it can be said the giants play cowboys close, and if not for mistakes, etc etc bottoming is the losses. Until then ... they have to prove themselves

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2 1/2 seasons. They can beat the bottom teams because they have Eli. Any team not drafting in the top 10 they lose to. Maybe they will get better as they get players back but the defense is so bad I don't think they can beat any over .500 teams.

to change the momentum and confidence of a team and the tide of the season. in 2011 it looked like we were dead until cruz makes an amazing cut, runs 99 yards for a td and ignites the team.

wade's punch of the ball at the goal line when it appeared davis was going to score and the ball fatefully bounced out of the end zone for a touchback was a massive play. it was skill with some luck thrown in for good measure. the skins made a bit of noise late in the game but never seriously challenged the giants for the lead again.

the giants under coughlin have been streaky and I'm hopeful that last week was a turning point that will ignite a winning streak (until we hit the annual November blahs!)

or turns into a mess is simple enough:
Will any kind of a pass rush emerge? Whether it's Ayers, or Moore, or Wynn, or Diggy, or Whitlock, or even the return of JPP, someone has to figure out how to get opposing QB's from being comfortable in the pocket all game long. If no one emerges and/or Spags can't scheme a consistently good blitz package, we're going to lose more than we win.

The good quarterbacks will exploit our defense. We have 2 sacks in 3 games. Inexperience and no defensive stoppers you have to game plan for equals no playoffs.

The Giants will win the NFCE, relax. Have you tried yoga?

In comment 12514882 Dan in the Springs said:

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will a win against Buffalo impress you? Wondering if you'll just change your tune and say that Buffalo must not be any good. Lots of people around here thought we'd get blown out in Dallas. Instead, only a couple of blown calls by the refs handed Dallas the game. Lots of people thought Washington was going to run over us. Turns out our run defense was better than people gave us credit for. Dallas dominated us offensively but turned over the ball 3 times. If we beat Buffalo it is a step in the right direction. We have not beaten a decent team in 3 years. Now I read people saying we aren't a playoff team and Buffalo will expose us. Will you be convinced if the Giants find a way to win on Sunday?

In comment 12514886 Vanzetti said:

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The two games they "blew" were both against teams that are arguably top 6 in the NFL. What the "lack of talent" crew overlooks is that new talent emerges. So, yes, in terms of established veterans Giants lack talent. But they have a lot of young guys who are developing: Flowers, Richberg, Pugh, Kennard, Wynn, Unga, Collins. That's where the improvement is going to come from. Also, "the lack of talent" posters also overlooked how much better the offense would be in its second year. And how much Spags would be able to mix and match different skill sets on D.

Beating Buffalo would point the arrow up. The Redskins are a bad team. I would not get overly excited .

two losses are a killer but a win Sunday puts us in great position.We aren't spectacular ...yet but if Cruz can stay on the field that may change.

In comment 12515387 joe48 said:

Quote:

In comment 12514886 Vanzetti said: Quote: The two games they "blew" were both against teams that are arguably top 6 in the NFL. What the "lack of talent" crew overlooks is that new talent emerges. So, yes, in terms of established veterans Giants lack talent. But they have a lot of young guys who are developing: Flowers, Richberg, Pugh, Kennard, Wynn, Unga, Collins. That's where the improvement is going to come from. Also, "the lack of talent" posters also overlooked how much better the offense would be in its second year. And how much Spags would be able to mix and match different skill sets on D. Beating Buffalo would point the arrow up. The Redskins are a bad team. I would not get overly excited .

Thanks for your honest response.

how the Redskins were inflated in stature before the Giants game, and when the Giants soundly trounce them, they suddenly return to the depths where they came from.

In comment 12514886 Vanzetti said:

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The two games they "blew" were both against teams that are arguably top 6 in the NFL. What the "lack of talent" crew overlooks is that new talent emerges. So, yes, in terms of established veterans Giants lack talent. But they have a lot of young guys who are developing: Flowers, Richberg, Pugh, Kennard, Wynn, Unga, Collins. That's where the improvement is going to come from. Also, "the lack of talent" posters also overlooked how much better the offense would be in its second year. And how much Spags would be able to mix and match different skill sets on D.

Good post - All true; the drops on ELI in the 4th quarter would have had us winning both those games.

In comment 12515387 joe48 said:

Quote:

In comment 12514886 Vanzetti said: Quote: The two games they "blew" were both against teams that are arguably top 6 in the NFL. What the "lack of talent" crew overlooks is that new talent emerges. So, yes, in terms of established veterans Giants lack talent. But they have a lot of young guys who are developing: Flowers, Richberg, Pugh, Kennard, Wynn, Unga, Collins. That's where the improvement is going to come from. Also, "the lack of talent" posters also overlooked how much better the offense would be in its second year. And how much Spags would be able to mix and match different skill sets on D. Beating Buffalo would point the arrow up. The Redskins are a bad team. I would not get overly excited .

Except they were rolling over teams. Stop being stupid you cockfuck.

with all these key injuries. I think that's pretty damn good, and they've looked better each week. time to be optimistic about our chances.

and could put some pressure on the quarterback. Romo, Ryan, and even Cousins had too much time to locate receivers.

that the lack of a dominant pass rusher will be the Achilles heel. having a healthy DRC and Prince in the secondary combined with continued improvement from Collins and solid play from merriweather, wade, holsey, etc. gives us a competitive advantage in coverage. the pass rush from the front four needs to be better, but we don't need a 10 sack guy.

having the offense control the ball and special teams giving the giants advantageous field position are also very much ways our weakness in rushing the passer can be overcome.

i'm not convinced
Les in TO : 9:30 am : link : reply
that the lack of a dominant pass rusher will be the Achilles heel. having a healthy DRC and Prince in the secondary combined with continued improvement from Collins and solid play from merriweather, wade, holsey, etc. gives us a competitive advantage in coverage. the pass rush from the front four needs to be better, but we don't need a 10 sack guy.

DRC comes out, BEFORE THE SEASON EVEN STARTED, and says he is going to have to grind this season out, because he is not 100%.....it's going to be week to week with him, with a possible injury occurring out there....Hosley is the achilles heel in the defensive backfield, just waiting to pop......we don't need a 10 sack guy...we need group pressure...having it come from different guys, to keep the offense guessing, will make or break Spag's defense.......




having the offense control the ball and special teams giving the giants advantageous field position are also very much ways our weakness in rushing the passer can be overcome.

How do you control the ball, with 3rd down passes to TE's, that are not long enough for a first down?....this is not a ball control offense, because it can't run the ball when it needs to.....oh sure, you can pop a good run here and there...but convert short yardage consistently on the ground? No way....and Eli still has problems with short throws.....it's just not part of his repertoire....it not about ball control for this offense, it's about scoring points.....this offense has to score points and make the opposition one dimensional, making it easier for this defense to play defense...

In comment 12516084 Doomster said:

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i'm not convinced Les in TO : 9:30 am : link : reply that the lack of a dominant pass rusher will be the Achilles heel. having a healthy DRC and Prince in the secondary combined with continued improvement from Collins and solid play from merriweather, wade, holsey, etc. gives us a competitive advantage in coverage. the pass rush from the front four needs to be better, but we don't need a 10 sack guy. DRC comes out, BEFORE THE SEASON EVEN STARTED, and says he is going to have to grind this season out, because he is not 100%.....it's going to be week to week with him, with a possible injury occurring out there....Hosley is the achilles heel in the defensive backfield, just waiting to pop......we don't need a 10 sack guy...we need group pressure...having it come from different guys, to keep the offense guessing, will make or break Spag's defense....... having the offense control the ball and special teams giving the giants advantageous field position are also very much ways our weakness in rushing the passer can be overcome. How do you control the ball, with 3rd down passes to TE's, that are not long enough for a first down?....this is not a ball control offense, because it can't run the ball when it needs to.....oh sure, you can pop a good run here and there...but convert short yardage consistently on the ground? No way....and Eli still has problems with short throws.....it's just not part of his repertoire....it not about ball control for this offense, it's about scoring points.....this offense has to score points and make the opposition one dimensional, making it easier for this defense to play defense...

The problem is that when we force teams to be one-dimensional, it attacks our Achilles heel. The only glaring weakness of this team is pass defense, and specifically coverage of backs and tight ends along with the pass rush. Julio got yards on us, but he will get yards on everybody, and until the last play on Prince, he was on a steady diet of nine yard slants.

I will become a believer when we beat a good team, and are no longer in the bottom ten in any given week of sacks, pressures and pass yards against. In a passing league, an inability to defend the pass means no lead is ever close to safe.

We had a plus 3 differential in turnovers in Dallas and still lost and, their offense marched all over the field on us. True the penalties were crucial and big mistakes, but we had a lot of bounces go our way. We struggled to move the ball all game (191 gross passing yards with < 100 yards rushing is not a good offensive output).

Against Atlanta, we didn't give the game away, Atlanta took it away. Atlanta was the better team from kickoff up through midway into the second quarter. Then we had our run after Beckham's play ignited us. Then that fragile momentum we had went out the window on the fumble and the gimmick play to the TE Atlanta hit for around 40 yards. Atlanta scorched us in the fourth quarter on offense and slapped us around on defense in the same quarter.

The Washington game was an improvement, but there were still plenty of issues. And please don't try to prop up Washington as a contender based upon the win against St. Louis and a one point loss against a reeling Dolphins team. The Redskins are just an ok team.

The Giants have been mediocre at best since mid 2012 and nothing about the Giants so far this year has shown anything different ... yet.

Beat Buffalo on the road as an underdog, and that starts to change things more.

In comment 12515468 Randy in CT said:

Quote:

In comment 12515387 joe48 said: Quote: In comment 12514886 Vanzetti said: Quote: The two games they "blew" were both against teams that are arguably top 6 in the NFL. What the "lack of talent" crew overlooks is that new talent emerges. So, yes, in terms of established veterans Giants lack talent. But they have a lot of young guys who are developing: Flowers, Richberg, Pugh, Kennard, Wynn, Unga, Collins. That's where the improvement is going to come from. Also, "the lack of talent" posters also overlooked how much better the offense would be in its second year. And how much Spags would be able to mix and match different skill sets on D. Beating Buffalo would point the arrow up. The Redskins are a bad team. I would not get overly excited . Except they were rolling over teams. Stop being stupid you cockfuck.

Who exactly were the 1-1 Redskins "rolling over"? They had one win!!!!!

I guess I've just seen too many starts like this one to think its going to be any better than the others, Debbie Downer I know but its just the way I see it.

Sadly I may wait a long, long time.

We are not good enough to handle their DL. But I'll watch and root for our guys... Just being realistic.

But we easily can be 3-0, with victories against powerful Atlanta and Dallas. I agree our defense has holes but we all hope as pats will find a system to maximize strengths while minimizing weaknesses.

If the OL protect Eli, I think we can score enough points. So, for now I remain cautiously optimistic.

2 2014 repeat All Pros in Dareus and Williams, and 3 double digit sack guys in the above 2 plus Hughes who is super athletic.

No doubt Eli will dink and doink all game but... The Giants must be almost perfectly mistake free, and cannot fall behind by two scores. Away in Buffalo, I'll be pleasantly surprised if we look competitive.

In comment 12515387 joe48 said:

Quote:

In comment 12514886 Vanzetti said: Quote: The two games they "blew" were both against teams that are arguably top 6 in the NFL. What the "lack of talent" crew overlooks is that new talent emerges. So, yes, in terms of established veterans Giants lack talent. But they have a lot of young guys who are developing: Flowers, Richberg, Pugh, Kennard, Wynn, Unga, Collins. That's where the improvement is going to come from. Also, "the lack of talent" posters also overlooked how much better the offense would be in its second year. And how much Spags would be able to mix and match different skill sets on D. Beating Buffalo would point the arrow up. The Redskins are a bad team. I would not get overly excited .

What do you say now Joe? Maybe the Redskins aren't as bad as we made them look (or maybe the Eagles are a lot worse than people think), and maybe we can accept that the Giants are legit?

What's clear to me about the Giants:

Very good run defense - completely committed to stopping the run they are getting it done. Good defense overall, even if teams are coming back late.

Not in sync offensively - definitely not the juggernaut many of us had hoped for.

Tough, physical play for much of every game. Are competing out there.

At the very worst, a competitive team who should challenge for a playoff spot, provided they can remain healthy.

How anyone can watch these first four games and remain convinced that we are one of the worst teams in the league, that we are competing for a top ten pick in the draft, is beyond me.

What do you say Joe? Convinced yet?

...It must really suck to have every meal turn out to be a shit sandwich.