For those interested in the series late in the game that has drawn some criticism.
-Mistake by running out of bounds by Jennings.
-2nd down run play called, Eli checked out when saw Odell 1-on-1.
-3rd down had pass play called. Thought process was basically now that no time had come off the clock anyway, no reason not to try for 6.
My problem is them calling another pass play after that. And the reasoning as Eli explains it still doesn't make sense. So basically they're saying no time was coming off the clock so they'll call another play to further facilitate that? Huh?
what the? sonofa. fordaluva.
It just blows my mind.
Explaining why they did something stupid doesn't actually make me feel better about the fact that they did something so stupid. How these guys, Eli, TC McAdoo, et al, don't know what to do in this situation is completely unfathomable. These guys make millions of dollars coaching and playing professional football, they've already lost games this year with stupid clock management issues, and yet they persist in making these avoidable mistakes. Its bizarre.
By the way, the worst thing that could have happened is not an INT or even a last minute loss. The worst thing that could have happened is either Eli or OBJ get hurt running a completely unnecessary series of pass plays. Imagine the fall-out if Eli blow out his knee chasing down the DB that picked off his pass to RR? What if OBJ catches that needless TD and breaks his ankle in the process? Totally stupid. You run the ball, run the clock, kick the FG and get out of Buffalo with a well fought road win.
giantgiantfan : 5:27 pm : link : reply
to have the mistake at least it didn't cost them a win and they can learn from it.
If TC and Eli haven't learned it in the last 11 years, not to mention, the last three games, they are beyond learning time management....yet somehow, we are 2-2 and in first place
Some people on here last night said:
Well whats the guarantee of the FG being made?
Do you know the odds of a fumble vs. an INT?
Why are we being so hard on them after a win?
I take my chances with a FG there 100 out of 100 times
How many fumbles have we seen out of the victory formation?
Why are we being hard on them? Because look at what damn nearly happened...they throw a TD pass to come within 1 score with plenty of time remaining....thankfully the chop block was called, but that heartache was totally unnecessary
giantgiantfan : 5:27 pm : link : reply
to have the mistake at least it didn't cost them a win and they can learn from it.
If TC and Eli haven't learned it in the last 11 years, not to mention, the last three games, they are beyond learning time management....yet somehow, we are 2-2 and in first place....go figure...
It just blows my mind.
Eli is right. If you are going to throw a pass on second down, you throw one on third and try and get the TD. If that didn't work, you kick your FG. The problem is that the pass got picked so there were no points at all.
If you are still worried about that pick, I say let it go.
Some people on here last night said:
Well whats the guarantee of the FG being made?
Do you know the odds of a fumble vs. an INT?
Why are we being so hard on them after a win?
I take my chances with a FG there 100 out of 100 times
How many fumbles have we seen out of the victory formation?
Why are we being hard on them? Because look at what damn nearly happened...they throw a TD pass to come within 1 score with plenty of time remaining....thankfully the chop block was called, but that heartache was totally unnecessary
Obviously based on what occurred -- there are circumstances where you run plays that don't take enough time off of the clock -- so your initial statement -- and the premise of your statements are incorrect on their face.
I also don't agree with the premise of your statements
I can see circumstances where you do go for the TD -- and where it makes sense to go for the TD -- 1) as a means to fire up the troops -- 2) as an aggressive act to go for the win -- 3) because it made more sense to go for the TD than kick a field goal -- 4) because you felt there was a higher risk in being conservative at that point in time
the problem was with the execution of two of the plays on that drive -- 1) when Jennings was forced out of bounds instead of staying inbounds -- 2) when the pass was not completed and intercepted.
I for one had no problem with the play - and I also believe that had the play been executed and the Giants score a TD -- none of your tirades would have occurred -- which means you are merely second-guessing a sequence of events that occurred with a bad outcome --
So I say bull spit -- : )
3 straight runs up the gut. Stay in bounds, don't struggle trying to break tackles, let the clock run, kick the FG and start putting in the backups/reserves.
Any other choice is the wrong one...
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Do you do anything but run clock and take a 17 point lead.
Some people on here last night said:
Well whats the guarantee of the FG being made?
Do you know the odds of a fumble vs. an INT?
Why are we being so hard on them after a win?
I take my chances with a FG there 100 out of 100 times
How many fumbles have we seen out of the victory formation?
Why are we being hard on them? Because look at what damn nearly happened...they throw a TD pass to come within 1 score with plenty of time remaining....thankfully the chop block was called, but that heartache was totally unnecessary
Obviously based on what occurred -- there are circumstances where you run plays that don't take enough time off of the clock -- so your initial statement -- and the premise of your statements are incorrect on their face.
I also don't agree with the premise of your statements
I can see circumstances where you do go for the TD -- and where it makes sense to go for the TD -- 1) as a means to fire up the troops -- 2) as an aggressive act to go for the win -- 3) because it made more sense to go for the TD than kick a field goal -- 4) because you felt there was a higher risk in being conservative at that point in time
the problem was with the execution of two of the plays on that drive -- 1) when Jennings was forced out of bounds instead of staying inbounds -- 2) when the pass was not completed and intercepted.
I for one had no problem with the play - and I also believe that had the play been executed and the Giants score a TD -- none of your tirades would have occurred -- which means you are merely second-guessing a sequence of events that occurred with a bad outcome --
So I say bull spit -- : )
So isnt (and along taking time off the clock in the process and not stopping with an incomplete etc) putting a 3 on the board the same as seven? Both are putting you up by 3 score game. Take the better option based on the premise of clock runoff with the fg imho
giantgiantfan : 5:27 pm : link : reply
to have the mistake at least it didn't cost them a win and they can learn from it.
If TC and Eli haven't learned it in the last 11 years, not to mention, the last three games, they are beyond learning time management....yet somehow, we are 2-2 and in first place
I'm speaking in the context of this game. I'm just happy about the win and that's where it ends for me.
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In comment 12528344 NewBlue said:
Quote:
Do you do anything but run clock and take a 17 point lead.
Some people on here last night said:
Well whats the guarantee of the FG being made?
Do you know the odds of a fumble vs. an INT?
Why are we being so hard on them after a win?
I take my chances with a FG there 100 out of 100 times
How many fumbles have we seen out of the victory formation?
Why are we being hard on them? Because look at what damn nearly happened...they throw a TD pass to come within 1 score with plenty of time remaining....thankfully the chop block was called, but that heartache was totally unnecessary
Obviously based on what occurred -- there are circumstances where you run plays that don't take enough time off of the clock -- so your initial statement -- and the premise of your statements are incorrect on their face.
I also don't agree with the premise of your statements
I can see circumstances where you do go for the TD -- and where it makes sense to go for the TD -- 1) as a means to fire up the troops -- 2) as an aggressive act to go for the win -- 3) because it made more sense to go for the TD than kick a field goal -- 4) because you felt there was a higher risk in being conservative at that point in time
the problem was with the execution of two of the plays on that drive -- 1) when Jennings was forced out of bounds instead of staying inbounds -- 2) when the pass was not completed and intercepted.
I for one had no problem with the play - and I also believe that had the play been executed and the Giants score a TD -- none of your tirades would have occurred -- which means you are merely second-guessing a sequence of events that occurred with a bad outcome --
So I say bull spit -- : )
So isnt (and along taking time off the clock in the process and not stopping with an incomplete etc) putting a 3 on the board the same as seven? Both are putting you up by 3 score game. Take the better option based on the premise of clock runoff with the fg imho
No - taking a field goal is not the same as seven -- one puts you up by 2 touchdowns and a field goal and one puts you up by 3 touchdowns
the safest route is not the only path to take despite what a lot of BBIers are saying -- and these folks prior to this game were same ones telling everyone that this team had no talent, that this team had insufficient talent, that the season was over after game two -- and that there is no way the Giants would win against the Bills -- they were wrong then in every instance -- and they are wrong now -- the only difference being, in this case, it was a judgment call based on circumstances, and they are now second-guessing the judgment based on the results -- do you really believe these arguments would be happening if the result had been a TD? I highly doubt it -- and if that's the case then it's just a lot of hot air from a very sorry group of lungs -- that seems to need something to bite into after each and every game
You would think with all the attention the time management issues have garnered they would do better there.
No - taking a field goal is not the same as seven -- one puts you up by 2 touchdowns and a field goal and one puts you up by 3 touchdowns
It is the same number of possessions. And that is the only thing that matters when you have so little time on the clock.
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in that situation and make sure you stay in bounds? Kick the FG and go up 3 scores with less than 4 minutes left. Make them eat their time outs.
It just blows my mind.
Old thinking. A 17 point lead with 3-4 minutes is not necessarily an ultra-safe lead when kickers can make 50+ FG.
Eli is right. If you are going to throw a pass on second down, you throw one on third and try and get the TD. If that didn't work, you kick your FG. The problem is that the pass got picked so there were no points at all.
Don't confuse old thinking with common sense.
It's how Coughlin rolls. It's not going to change so get used to it. The Dallas game or the ending was an anomaly but yesterday's game was not.
Go back through the years with Coughlin here and you will find yesterday's game was no different.
Torrag - that's a load of bull -- no way any of you moral compasses would be spouting this philosophical point had the Giants scored a TD
Who watching that pass get picked off didn't envision a pick 6 for a brief moment? You can ask "what if the pass to Randle was a TD for us?" But you can also ask "what if it was a pick 6?"
And, frankly, it was a brilliant play by Rasheed Jennings that may have saved that victory. If not for that, the interception and the whole red zone series would have been even more obviously egregious.
Hard to believe anyone can argue this point. 4 minutes to go up 14 and you take 15 seconds off the clock? The interception or a touchdown is totally irrelevant. 3 plays gets you down to 2 and a half minutes and no matter where you are on the field you have to like your chances against this team. The field goal would have been a bonus. Pretty sure that anyone with any football knowledge would agree with this even had the Giants scored a touchdown.
those are the only logical explanations i can see for the play calls.
Agreed--I wish we were more like the Patr--oh, wait...
You run the freegin ball for a TD 3 times. If you get it in, great. If not, kick the easy FG.
Ya for some reason, his gambles are not turning into big scores of late.
Yup
I know what you mean, but IMO it's more a Q of situation. For one with just 3 plays to W the SB, DONT run the high risk play 1st. Vs BUF I preferred 3 runs, don't hate an audibled 'safer pass' to a 1-on-1 OBJ in most cases on 2nd down. But you have to play smart on 3rd (Eli's comment abt 3rd is baffling). People defend the pass as 'playing to W' yet it actually gives the opponent their best chance to W vs finishing them off. Making sure you get 3 there is huge and there's almost no advantage to getting 7
I believe most of the complainers here are talking out of hindsight. Not all but most. We score the touchdown and most would have said nothing. I'd bet some would say something along the lines of loving how they stayed aggressive. I still say Pats goes for it. Packers goes for it. Saints goes for it. Cowboys goes for it. On and on. I think they just went to the well too many times on that play (slant route) and got caught.
What I find frustrating is more people are bitching about clock management then there are enjoying the win. Coughlin has never been good with time management. I get it that people are upset about it but it's an over-reaction. No I don't think they had enough time to pull off a surprise win. Down 2 touchdowns with 4 minutes left. What are the odds there? What, we were burned before by the Eagles years ago. Every dog has it's day and this is not the same team. No it's not like the Cowboys game either. That game had a ton more bad decisions, drops, mistakes, etc and the game was much closer.
Enjoy the win for crying out loud. I don't think people see all the areas this team has improved on from last year:
Rushing Defense: Check
Offensive Line: Check
Turnover Ratio: Check
Aggressive Defense: Check
Less Interceptions by Eli: Check
Etc. Etc. Etc.
No really, think about it. I can go on. It's a long list. Are their some areas we are worse then last year? Sure (i.e. pass rush), but that's a much shorter list.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda, maybe, if, but .... Did any of that happen? 14 points down with 4 minutes left and all of what could have, may have, should have, blah blah blah, didn't freaking happen. Not even close. They didn't score ANYTHING. 4 minutes later, same score. Enjoy the damn UPSET WIN for F**K sake.
My post wasn't to defend the decision. The decision doesn't bother me like most. My point wasn't even directed at anyone specific. It was directed at BBI as a whole who continue to use hyperbole when discussing game decisions and play on the field. When Eli throws a pick or does something they deem stupid we throw out terms like rookie mistake or bonehead. When TC or any of the coaches make a decision we call them senile.
What I don't see is BBI evaluating other coaches and players the same way they do Giants coaches and players and that is what my post was about. I could go into more detail on my point, but its a much larger topic that doesn't have to do with this thread or this specific decision.
We used to have clock management coaches on staff. I think one was forced on Fassel. I seem to remember He Who Must Not Be Named was a clock management coach for Parcells.
These lessons were bought and paid for a loooooong time ago using other people's money which is the best kind, yet we continue to pay for it today. This is not some secret code. So obviously something happens down on that field that causes otherwise bright men to become buffoons.
That's what's unfathomable.
Link - ( New Window )
Alls swell that ends well but lets not push our luck.
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the philososphy was flawed. Going up three scores in that situation virtually guarantees victory. There is a significant increase to your chances of winning the game the instant you convert the FG. It was a mistake whether the play succeeded or not.
Torrag - that's a load of bull -- no way any of you moral compasses would be spouting this philosophical point had the Giants scored a TD
I guess "time management" is the new buzzword we've picked up from the sporting press to allow fans to exercise their 20-20 hindsight.
I believe most of the complainers here are talking out of hindsight. Not all but most. We score the touchdown and most would have said nothing. I'd bet some would say something along the lines of loving how they stayed aggressive. I still say Pats goes for it. Packers goes for it. Saints goes for it. Cowboys goes for it. On and on. I think they just went to the well too many times on that play (slant route) and got caught.
What I find frustrating is more people are bitching about clock management then there are enjoying the win. Coughlin has never been good with time management. I get it that people are upset about it but it's an over-reaction. No I don't think they had enough time to pull off a surprise win. Down 2 touchdowns with 4 minutes left. What are the odds there? What, we were burned before by the Eagles years ago. Every dog has it's day and this is not the same team. No it's not like the Cowboys game either. That game had a ton more bad decisions, drops, mistakes, etc and the game was much closer.
Enjoy the win for crying out loud. I don't think people see all the areas this team has improved on from last year:
Rushing Defense: Check
Offensive Line: Check
Turnover Ratio: Check
Aggressive Defense: Check
Less Interceptions by Eli: Check
Etc. Etc. Etc.
No really, think about it. I can go on. It's a long list. Are their some areas we are worse then last year? Sure (i.e. pass rush), but that's a much shorter list.
Coulda, woulda, shoulda, maybe, if, but .... Did any of that happen? 14 points down with 4 minutes left and all of what could have, may have, should have, blah blah blah, didn't freaking happen. Not even close. They didn't score ANYTHING. 4 minutes later, same score. Enjoy the damn UPSET WIN for F**K sake.
Another guy who knows what we are thinking. And not only does he know what we are thinking he knows what the best coaches in football are thinking too. Congrats on the win to all you super Giant fans while those of us who understand the game know that nothing happened this time, but it has happened in the past and will happen again. Not asking for perfect but staying in bounds at the end of a game when you have the lead is football 101. I am pretty sure every fan realized that at the moment it happened.
Let's not forget that this offense is still a work in progress and by no means has it hit on all cylinders yet.
With the defense playing so well against the run, and beginning to get more healthy...and the young DL getting support from the back 7...I gotta believe that TC's thinking that once he gets a consistent contribution from the offense (scoring TD's not FG's) that they are really going to have a squad to be reckoned with.
The Cowflies and Shegals are ripe for the taking right now. I can see why he would have a sense of urgency to get this offense on track and running on all cylinders.
What they did Sunday flies in the face of all logic and common sense. It's so simple, really.
1. With under 4 minutes left, there's no difference between a 17-point lead and a 21-point lead, since it's highly unlikely the Bills will have more three possessions.
2. Run, run, run accomplishes one of three things, all positive: It takes the clock down to under 3 minutes; it makes the Bills use all of their timeouts; it results in a combination of running time off and burning Bills timeouts.
3. There's only one negative that can happen on a run play: a fumble. There are several negatives that can happen on a pass: sack and fumble, catch (short of goal line) and fumble, interception, all of which have the potential to be returned for a touchdown.
And for god's sake, the field goal would have been close to the equivalent of the old extra point, which the NFL deemed too automatic. It's also possible that the Giants would have scored a touchdown on one of the three runs.