I love the cap space, I see a team that's darn near there without JPP, I see up to four dynamite free agents with that money filling selective holes....it's an ugly incident from the past and is barely worth thinking about.
We are looking at a super-exciting year...with maybe the second best Giant I've ever seen and excitement as I watch this O line come together. I see excitement watching the D line come together but in a completely different way that I can appreciate but would have a tough time explaining.
I am even to starting to love the names in the same way I once loved Robestelli, Modoleski, Grier, Katcavage, huff.....
Flowers (boy do I love this somewhat stoic tough kid) Pugh...(love this kid too and like him at guard) and on it goes....here and now.
based on how much damage was done to the surviving fingers
I don't think there's much doubt that the index finger was seriously fucked up and probably a goner anyway. It was many folks initial notion (sans any info) that he cut it off to have a chance at money this year. Once the severity of the injury became known, hardly anyone goes that route anymore.
IMO, the article is a fluff piece rehashing everything that's been said already.
what franchise player means. he seems to think its a good thing for the player. odd for an ex agent.
How so? Literally, the only thing he says is that JPP had a lot at stake. That's absolutely the case.
This guy was a player and an agent for a long time (and IIRC, an agent that took a few hard stances and alienated some teams). I highly doubt that he doesn't understand what the franchise tag means.
JPP blew up a lot of good will along with his fingers, and now he's looking for some to try to maximize his income. Can't have it both ways.
I love the cap space, I see a team that's darn near there without JPP, I see up to four dynamite free agents with that money filling selective holes....it's an ugly incident from the past and is barely worth thinking about.
We are looking at a super-exciting year...with maybe the second best Giant I've ever seen and excitement as I watch this O line come together. I see excitement watching the D line come together but in a completely different way that I can appreciate but would have a tough time explaining.
I am even to starting to love the names in the same way I once loved Robestelli, Modoleski, Grier, Katcavage, huff.....
Flowers (boy do I love this somewhat stoic tough kid) Pugh...(love this kid too and like him at guard) and on it goes....here and now.
Since the additional damage beyond the index finger has come to light, I've come around to this frame of mind too. I'm sure the team will do what's in their best interest, but I've basically moved on.
Yeah, I hate to say it because I was in favor of retaining JPP
but this could end up being greatly in the team's advantage - a decent draft next year plus a few key FA acquisitions could end up making a much more complete team than what we would have been with only JPP and another mid-tier signing.
what franchise player means. he seems to think its a good thing for the player. odd for an ex agent.
How so? Literally, the only thing he says is that JPP had a lot at stake. That's absolutely the case.
This guy was a player and an agent for a long time (and IIRC, an agent that took a few hard stances and alienated some teams). I highly doubt that he doesn't understand what the franchise tag means.
JPP blew up a lot of good will along with his fingers, and now he's looking for some to try to maximize his income. Can't have it both ways.
I think he blew good will with the fans. I don't think the FO will hold a grudge in deciding what is best for the franchise.
I don't believe they hold a grudge, but in the past the Giants
have made some player friendly moves in injury situations, and I don't think you'll see anything like that here.
Unless there's a very good chance JPP can help the team, he's done here. And IMO that's exactly what's going to happen, he's not going to see the field this year, a grievance will pop up next season and he'll end up with the tag rescind and no income for 2015 and probably peanuts for 2016.
This comment can be made about every single player
I don't. At least I hope the FO is not that stupid.
As I've said before, I think there has been more communication between both sides than has been reported and the situation is not as adversarial as most others think. Of Course that is pure speculation on my part. But the reports coming out of the September meeting made it sound like they parted on good terms.
RE: RE: This comment can be made about every single player
"Unless there's a very good chance XXX can help the team, he's done here."
Tell that to Chad Jones and Steve Smith.
S Smith got a low ball offer from the team. So low that a 1 year 1-2mm deal in Philly looked attractive.
Chad Jones never played a meaningful snap for the Giants again. And there is a huge difference between a rookie 3rd round contract and franchise tender contract.
that JPP would be earning a check *sooner* had he cooperated, if he's to return at all this year.
Even if there's was little chance of him being productive, the Giants, with some compassion, would likely have thrown a paycheck or two his way in 2015. It's the way they operate - sometimes counterproductive to the team's best short term interests, but important to the team's long term view.
Case in point - Chad Jones. I think everyone was pretty much convinced he'd never play again, but he wanted to try and they wanted to accommodate him. Same with Smith - they told him it'd be a two-year process, but they'd be willing to pay him for year 1 without any expectations. Both were moves that didn't immediately help the team, and could likely have been pointless from a football perspective.
I also think that JPP would have greatly helped his grievance case if he had involved the team from day 1, because he'd be able to point to them to some extent re: liability.
No way to look at JPP's actions here and come away thinking he didn't cost himself some money, it's just a matter of how much. In the end, it might not be a whole lot anyhow.
A guy that seemed to do everything right, he got zero good will from the team. They wanted him to prove he could play again before offering real $$$. As they should.
A guy that seemed to do everything right, he got zero good will from the team. They wanted him to prove he could play again before offering real $$$. As they should.
They offered him a two year contract that was worth more than what he got in Philly. He took less because Philly told him he'd get on the field sooner, and Smith thought he could parlay that into results that would get him paid with another contract shortly thereafter.
The team protected itself while giving a player money to do NOTHING. They expected zero from him year one, telling him as much.
If that isn't goodwill to you, then we're pretty much done here. The point isn't how much money they're getting - it's that it's money being given with the expectation of almost nothing in return. In Smith's case, they paid him for one year on the HOPES that he'd return to form in the second year. That's a lot to pay for hope. In Jones' case, however much money he made, he was paid for literally nothing, he was never going to play again.
that JPP would be earning a check *sooner* had he cooperated, if he's to return at all this year.
Even if there's was little chance of him being productive, the Giants, with some compassion, would likely have thrown a paycheck or two his way in 2015. It's the way they operate - sometimes counterproductive to the team's best short term interests, but important to the team's long term view.
Case in point - Chad Jones. I think everyone was pretty much convinced he'd never play again, but he wanted to try and they wanted to accommodate him. Same with Smith - they told him it'd be a two-year process, but they'd be willing to pay him for year 1 without any expectations. Both were moves that didn't immediately help the team, and could likely have been pointless from a football perspective.
I also think that JPP would have greatly helped his grievance case if he had involved the team from day 1, because he'd be able to point to them to some extent re: liability.
No way to look at JPP's actions here and come away thinking he didn't cost himself some money, it's just a matter of how much. In the end, it might not be a whole lot anyhow.
I 100% disagree.
For him to involve the team, he would have had to sign the tender.
If he signs the tender, they would have had to NFI him (or just release the tender outright).
I think the Giants are actually happy that he hasn't signed yet. Happy is probably not the right word, but you get my point.
So all that being said, where do we place the Giants' offer? I'd say it was in the area of $1 million, with incentives to allow him to double that figure.
Should they have offered more? Are the numbers above low enough for them to take a chance on a guy who can be a key element for an offense if healthy?
And as for as paying him to take the season off? Wrong.
4-6 weeks is not a paid year off to rehab
"Smith also took issue with Tom Coughlin's statement after Smith spurned the Giants for the Eagles on Aug. 10. Coughlin said Smith still was four to six weeks away from being healthy enough to play. Smith was activated off the physically unable to perform list only five days after signing with Philadelphia and practiced for the first time last week."
A guy that seemed to do everything right, he got zero good will from the team. They wanted him to prove he could play again before offering real $$$. As they should.
Ron, have to agree with Jon C here. The Giants did all they could to help him I believe
The Giants offer at the time was rumored to be about the same value
You can take away from that what you like - that Smith had money in hand rather than having to wait out a second season. Or, you can look at it as him rushing back to produce and never returning to form.
Oh - and the Giants thought he'd need 4-6 weeks of rehab
before he could start practicing. That was going to take them to the middle of the year - clearly, they weren't counting on Smith to produce much of anything.
As for goodwill - Smith kind of blew it up, having passed on a long term deal the season before because it didn't have enough guaranteed money. These guys play that game, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Smith's knee was suspect, and NYG offered a compromise that gave them some protection and would've potentially put about $2M in Smith's pocket IF he could play. The rub was he wasn't quite ready to play, and NYG was proceeding with caution and trying to guide Smith to do the same, not rush himself back on to field. In fact, NYG wasn't allowing him to do exactly that.
I'd also heard he was quite worried about the knee, and thus his financial future in football, so he took the bigger upfront offer from Philly.
In the end, NYG played their hand correctly given Smith's demise, and one could suggest Smith did what he had to.
Word was there was a second year in NYG's proposal (roughly $2M per)
and believe JPP should have worked closely with the team from the start. The Giants do take care of their players and they and they do a lot of things for others that most of us never heard about.
I suspect the injury is severe and he will take more time to be able to play football without further damage. I really don't see a future for JPP on this team.
before he could start practicing. That was going to take them to the middle of the year - clearly, they weren't counting on Smith to produce much of anything.
As for goodwill - Smith kind of blew it up, having passed on a long term deal the season before because it didn't have enough guaranteed money. These guys play that game, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Exactly
At the end of the day....The Giants handled this perfectly.
before he could start practicing. That was going to take them to the middle of the year - clearly, they weren't counting on Smith to produce much of anything.
As for goodwill - Smith kind of blew it up, having passed on a long term deal the season before because it didn't have enough guaranteed money. These guys play that game, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Wonder what bluelou found so offensive. Guess he's reflexively on the player's side in these kinds of difficult contract negotiations.
I think his agent is Eugene Parker.
Cindrich speaks to how we feel, JPP should have came to the Giants for help.
.
.
We are looking at a super-exciting year...with maybe the second best Giant I've ever seen and excitement as I watch this O line come together. I see excitement watching the D line come together but in a completely different way that I can appreciate but would have a tough time explaining.
I am even to starting to love the names in the same way I once loved Robestelli, Modoleski, Grier, Katcavage, huff.....
Flowers (boy do I love this somewhat stoic tough kid) Pugh...(love this kid too and like him at guard) and on it goes....here and now.
IMO, the article is a fluff piece rehashing everything that's been said already.
How so? Literally, the only thing he says is that JPP had a lot at stake. That's absolutely the case.
This guy was a player and an agent for a long time (and IIRC, an agent that took a few hard stances and alienated some teams). I highly doubt that he doesn't understand what the franchise tag means.
JPP blew up a lot of good will along with his fingers, and now he's looking for some to try to maximize his income. Can't have it both ways.
The entire article is one sentence: Cindrich would have recommended JPP cooperate with the team more.
How is it newsworthy what Cindrich would have done?
We are looking at a super-exciting year...with maybe the second best Giant I've ever seen and excitement as I watch this O line come together. I see excitement watching the D line come together but in a completely different way that I can appreciate but would have a tough time explaining.
I am even to starting to love the names in the same way I once loved Robestelli, Modoleski, Grier, Katcavage, huff.....
Flowers (boy do I love this somewhat stoic tough kid) Pugh...(love this kid too and like him at guard) and on it goes....here and now.
Since the additional damage beyond the index finger has come to light, I've come around to this frame of mind too. I'm sure the team will do what's in their best interest, but I've basically moved on.
Quote:
what franchise player means. he seems to think its a good thing for the player. odd for an ex agent.
How so? Literally, the only thing he says is that JPP had a lot at stake. That's absolutely the case.
This guy was a player and an agent for a long time (and IIRC, an agent that took a few hard stances and alienated some teams). I highly doubt that he doesn't understand what the franchise tag means.
JPP blew up a lot of good will along with his fingers, and now he's looking for some to try to maximize his income. Can't have it both ways.
I think he blew good will with the fans. I don't think the FO will hold a grudge in deciding what is best for the franchise.
Unless there's a very good chance JPP can help the team, he's done here. And IMO that's exactly what's going to happen, he's not going to see the field this year, a grievance will pop up next season and he'll end up with the tag rescind and no income for 2015 and probably peanuts for 2016.
Tell that to Chad Jones and Steve Smith.
I don't. At least I hope the FO is not that stupid.
As I've said before, I think there has been more communication between both sides than has been reported and the situation is not as adversarial as most others think. Of Course that is pure speculation on my part. But the reports coming out of the September meeting made it sound like they parted on good terms.
Quote:
"Unless there's a very good chance XXX can help the team, he's done here."
Tell that to Chad Jones and Steve Smith.
S Smith got a low ball offer from the team. So low that a 1 year 1-2mm deal in Philly looked attractive.
Chad Jones never played a meaningful snap for the Giants again. And there is a huge difference between a rookie 3rd round contract and franchise tender contract.
Even if there's was little chance of him being productive, the Giants, with some compassion, would likely have thrown a paycheck or two his way in 2015. It's the way they operate - sometimes counterproductive to the team's best short term interests, but important to the team's long term view.
Case in point - Chad Jones. I think everyone was pretty much convinced he'd never play again, but he wanted to try and they wanted to accommodate him. Same with Smith - they told him it'd be a two-year process, but they'd be willing to pay him for year 1 without any expectations. Both were moves that didn't immediately help the team, and could likely have been pointless from a football perspective.
I also think that JPP would have greatly helped his grievance case if he had involved the team from day 1, because he'd be able to point to them to some extent re: liability.
No way to look at JPP's actions here and come away thinking he didn't cost himself some money, it's just a matter of how much. In the end, it might not be a whole lot anyhow.
They offered him a two year contract that was worth more than what he got in Philly. He took less because Philly told him he'd get on the field sooner, and Smith thought he could parlay that into results that would get him paid with another contract shortly thereafter.
The team protected itself while giving a player money to do NOTHING. They expected zero from him year one, telling him as much.
If that isn't goodwill to you, then we're pretty much done here. The point isn't how much money they're getting - it's that it's money being given with the expectation of almost nothing in return. In Smith's case, they paid him for one year on the HOPES that he'd return to form in the second year. That's a lot to pay for hope. In Jones' case, however much money he made, he was paid for literally nothing, he was never going to play again.
Even if there's was little chance of him being productive, the Giants, with some compassion, would likely have thrown a paycheck or two his way in 2015. It's the way they operate - sometimes counterproductive to the team's best short term interests, but important to the team's long term view.
Case in point - Chad Jones. I think everyone was pretty much convinced he'd never play again, but he wanted to try and they wanted to accommodate him. Same with Smith - they told him it'd be a two-year process, but they'd be willing to pay him for year 1 without any expectations. Both were moves that didn't immediately help the team, and could likely have been pointless from a football perspective.
I also think that JPP would have greatly helped his grievance case if he had involved the team from day 1, because he'd be able to point to them to some extent re: liability.
No way to look at JPP's actions here and come away thinking he didn't cost himself some money, it's just a matter of how much. In the end, it might not be a whole lot anyhow.
I 100% disagree.
For him to involve the team, he would have had to sign the tender.
If he signs the tender, they would have had to NFI him (or just release the tender outright).
I think the Giants are actually happy that he hasn't signed yet. Happy is probably not the right word, but you get my point.
So all that being said, where do we place the Giants' offer? I'd say it was in the area of $1 million, with incentives to allow him to double that figure.
Should they have offered more? Are the numbers above low enough for them to take a chance on a guy who can be a key element for an offense if healthy?
You tell me.
http://www.nj.com/giants/index.ssf/2011/08/details_of_steve_smiths_contra.html
And as for as paying him to take the season off? Wrong.
4-6 weeks is not a paid year off to rehab
"Smith also took issue with Tom Coughlin's statement after Smith spurned the Giants for the Eagles on Aug. 10. Coughlin said Smith still was four to six weeks away from being healthy enough to play. Smith was activated off the physically unable to perform list only five days after signing with Philadelphia and practiced for the first time last week."
http://www.newsday.com/sports/football/giants/smith-giants-offer-what-giants-offer-1.3139575
Ron, have to agree with Jon C here. The Giants did all they could to help him I believe
You can take away from that what you like - that Smith had money in hand rather than having to wait out a second season. Or, you can look at it as him rushing back to produce and never returning to form.
As for goodwill - Smith kind of blew it up, having passed on a long term deal the season before because it didn't have enough guaranteed money. These guys play that game, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
I'd also heard he was quite worried about the knee, and thus his financial future in football, so he took the bigger upfront offer from Philly.
In the end, NYG played their hand correctly given Smith's demise, and one could suggest Smith did what he had to.
I suspect the injury is severe and he will take more time to be able to play football without further damage. I really don't see a future for JPP on this team.
As for goodwill - Smith kind of blew it up, having passed on a long term deal the season before because it didn't have enough guaranteed money. These guys play that game, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Exactly
At the end of the day....The Giants handled this perfectly.
We couldn't see it at the time. But wow....
NY or FLA doctors? Makes no difference.
The bottom line is he can't play and nothing was going to change that. The stupid thing was drinking and playing with fireworks.
As for goodwill - Smith kind of blew it up, having passed on a long term deal the season before because it didn't have enough guaranteed money. These guys play that game, and sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
Wait, I thought NYG was taking care of Smith.
Now he blew up his good will?
That was a quick 180