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NFT: Dodgers at Mets: Game 4

Canton : 10/13/2015 2:41 pm
@Mets: NLDS Game 4 Lineup:

@cgrand3 RF
#DavidWright 3B
Murphy 2B
@ynscspds LF
d�Arnaud C
Duda 1B
Flores SS
@juanlagares2 CF
@Smatz88 P

#LGM



Let's close this out tonight at home! How special would that be..
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Getting Kershawed by Kershaw is  
Headhunter : 10/14/2015 8:09 am : link
something that happens. He is the best pitcher on planet earth and there is disappointment but no disgrace. Thursday heroes or bums will be made in Met lore.
==========  
GiantFilthy : 10/14/2015 8:15 am : link
Quote:
ZGiants98 : 7:56 am : link : reply
Amen. People are really citing K numbers and batting averages in a 5 games series facing Kershaw and Greinke two times a piece?? Really?? You mean a couple guys have struggled???? SHOCKER.


People should be talking more about how the hell Murphy smacked two dingers off of Kershaw more than they should about the K's.
Thursday in Yiddish is  
Headhunter : 10/14/2015 8:44 am : link
Tuchas on der tisch
The one time we faced  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 8:55 am : link
a good, not super powered freak of nature, our lineup exploded for 13 runs. We knew this would be tough. Whining about 3-4 game samples is pathetic.
This loss still hurts  
Canton : 10/14/2015 10:42 am : link
I wanted to see them clinch it at home. Matz should hold his head high. We only got him one run. He can't shoulder the blame.
RE: This loss still hurts  
schabadoo : 10/14/2015 10:47 am : link
In comment 12549024 Canton said:
Quote:
I wanted to see them clinch it at home. Matz should hold his head high. We only got him one run. He can't shoulder the blame.


That curveball to Kershaw is reminding me of Wohlers getting beat on his third pitch to Leyritz.
I can't blame the pitching  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 10:54 am : link
Or the hitters last night. We got Clayton Kershaw'd. It was bound to happen eventually. We should have won game two and seized that opportunity but the umps fucked us. Let's hope this series isn't remembered by that play. Greinke is arguably the best pitcher in baseball this year and he's home where the Dodgers never lose. I can't see a more difficult game/situation amongst the remaining teams if we move on. This is the biggest challenge we could ever possibly imagine.
RE: The one time we faced  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 10:58 am : link
In comment 12548728 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
a good, not super powered freak of nature, our lineup exploded for 13 runs. We knew this would be tough. Whining about 3-4 game samples is pathetic.


I really don't understand the need to attack your fellow fans because some may complain about certain players that have vastly underperformed. Duda has been straight trash. Wright crushes lefties but has been held to one hit in four games (although he has walked a bunch). Except for one game, TdA has been awful. Yes, we are facing great pitchers...I understand that. Everybody complains about something, even you.
Eh, I do place blame on the hitters. The pitching was good  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 11:04 am : link
enough to win. The mets went away from their game plan and it hurt them. Kershaw is great, no doubt, but on three days rest we had an opportunity to hit him. The hitters did nothing to get him out of rhythm and they were all trying to hit the 5 run HR. You watch the Dodgers and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM stepped out of the box. All game, every game. It's the little things that allow you to win a game while only scoring 3 runs. I'm not surprised they weren't coached that way.
RE: RE: The one time we faced  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 11:15 am : link
In comment 12549100 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
In comment 12548728 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:


a good, not super powered freak of nature, our lineup exploded for 13 runs. We knew this would be tough. Whining about 3-4 game samples is pathetic.



I really don't understand the need to attack your fellow fans because some may complain about certain players that have vastly underperformed. Duda has been straight trash. Wright crushes lefties but has been held to one hit in four games (although he has walked a bunch). Except for one game, TdA has been awful. Yes, we are facing great pitchers...I understand that. Everybody complains about something, even you.


As long as you can identify it as simply complaining and not anything of merit. I get the need to voice frustration, even if it's misplaced. Also people clearly have biases against certain players. For you, you are going to rip Duda every chance you get, while Wright who has been worst, and has had the more favorable pitching matchups, we aren't likely to hear a peep about. It's all good, but it becomes pretty predictable and grating. You're right though. I have my targets too. I guess we all do. I actually think Wright and Duda have taken some pretty good atbats this series, TDA obviously had s huge night in game 3. We've played 4 games. Thinking a few guys wouldn't struggle against Kershaw/Greinke 4 out of 5 times is pretty asinine IMO.
RE: Eh, I do place blame on the hitters. The pitching was good  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 11:19 am : link
In comment 12549120 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
enough to win. The mets went away from their game plan and it hurt them. Kershaw is great, no doubt, but on three days rest we had an opportunity to hit him. The hitters did nothing to get him out of rhythm and they were all trying to hit the 5 run HR. You watch the Dodgers and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM stepped out of the box. All game, every game. It's the little things that allow you to win a game while only scoring 3 runs. I'm not surprised they weren't coached that way.


I don't know about that. I mean did you see Kershaw last night? The short day rest excuse doesn't really fly anymore. He was as dominant as I've ever seen him. The game plan WAS to take pitches and get him out of there. Wright has admitted this. Well guess what? Kershaw started every damn hitter off with strike one while they watched the pitch go by. Plan foiled. Advantage? The great Clayton Edward Kershaw.
Kershaw's  
Metnut : 10/14/2015 11:21 am : link
fastball avg. velocity last night was the highest of all of his starts this season. It doesn't mean that the Mets shouldn't have stepped out of the box a bit more or, or that they couldn't have scratched a few runs off of him in such a big spot, but saying that he wasn't 100% because of 3-days rest is just not the case here.
RE: Kershaw's  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 11:23 am : link
In comment 12549185 Metnut said:
Quote:
fastball avg. velocity last night was the highest of all of his starts this season. It doesn't mean that the Mets shouldn't have stepped out of the box a bit more or, or that they couldn't have scratched a few runs off of him in such a big spot, but saying that he wasn't 100% because of 3-days rest is just not the case here.


Agreed. He was fired up and as on as on could be.
Z, last night was the first time I complained about Duda and  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 11:33 am : link
I made a whopping to comments citing his awful stats. I also mentioned that DW hasn't been great either so your claim about that holds no water.

And for what it's worth, DW has not been worse than Duda. Duda has exactly ONE extra hit while striking out the majority of his ABs ( and only 1 BB). DW hasn't been great but at least he's been getting on base at a decent clip bc of walks and been in the thick of the scoring. You praised Granderson all season for his ability to generate walks while not hitting as much...DW doesn't get the same benefit?

Yes, I'm aware it's a small sample size playing only 4 games...but that's what we've got. We've had an entire season for sample sizes, now we need to get it going. You miss the point of my post. I said that Kershaw was great. But we did nothing to disrupt Kershaws rhythm. We sat in the box and waited to swing for the fences. Like I said, and Pedro said last night, we should have been stepping out more like the Dodgers. I don't like it but it makes sense. Oh well, on to the next.
RE: Kershaw's  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 11:36 am : link
In comment 12549185 Metnut said:
Quote:
fastball avg. velocity last night was the highest of all of his starts this season. It doesn't mean that the Mets shouldn't have stepped out of the box a bit more or, or that they couldn't have scratched a few runs off of him in such a big spot, but saying that he wasn't 100% because of 3-days rest is just not the case here.


I never said he wasn't 100%. But pitching on three days rest isn't something a pitcher normally does. We see with our own Matt Harvey how it can affect pitchers if you change their routine. Darling talks about it all the time. I don't think it was a stretch to think he might have been less effective or prone to mistakes while on short rest. Create create create. It's been my gripe with the coaching staff all year. It may have changed nothing. But at least you try.
Baseball is a game of inches  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 11:40 am : link
If Wright, Flores, and Murphy all moved the other way 6 inches then we probably get out of that inning with zero runs and win the game 1-0.

They found the holes and had their inning. Our pitching was pretty darn good yesterday. Theirs was better.
I was never defending Duda  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 11:49 am : link
Over Wright. Just pointing out how some like to do exactly that. I also wasn't targeting you. There are people here that will jump on certain players every chance they get. I'm sure you you've witnessed the Wright bashers, Flores bashers, ect. For you... That seems to be Duda. Last year, it was Granderson. I don't see how Duda is "trash". He had a very nice, albeit streaky year, and actually finished hitting well. He's faced almost all lefthanders so far so it's not surprising he's struck out a lot.

Our lineup is arguably the best in the entire league. It is what it is. All 8 players have played their part in getting us to this point. Dissecting 3-4 game samples in baseball will always be stupid. I could care less who is hitting .300 or who is 0-11 over 3 games. These are all important players and we need to find a way to get runs across any way we can. Trashing and spitting all over our players is just annoying IMO. especially the good ones.
RE: Baseball is a game of inches  
steve in ky : 10/14/2015 11:51 am : link
In comment 12549253 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
If Wright, Flores, and Murphy all moved the other way 6 inches then we probably get out of that inning with zero runs and win the game 1-0.

They found the holes and had their inning. Our pitching was pretty darn good yesterday. Theirs was better.


Or Matz allow the opposing pitcher to get on base. Not getting that out was the killer, it opened the door for them.
Not to make a big deal out of it, but you were absolutely  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 12:13 pm : link
targeting me, which is fine.

Quote:
For you, you are going to rip Duda every chance you get, while Wright who has been worst, and has had the more favorable pitching matchups, we aren't likely to hear a peep about. It's all good, but it becomes pretty predictable and grating.


I made the post, you can certainly comment on it. I don't see the big deal about posting how awful a player is. We've all done it. Duda HAS been trash this series. Contributed nothing. Wright is a close second to Duda. I really don't get not caring about the small sample size because it's irrelevant. We are in a do or die series. If you are invisible like Duda, Wright, and TdA for the most part, it's fair game to point out their inability to contribute. I understand it may be annoying to some...but so is the constant excuses we get from some posters about certain players. To each his own I guess. But I don't think we fans have been THAT bad with killing the team on their shortcomings. But some absolutely deserve it. This is the constant fear with Duda. All or nothing with him...and we got nothing this series. It's hard to build success around that.
RE: RE: Baseball is a game of inches  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 12:14 pm : link
In comment 12549302 steve in ky said:
Quote:
In comment 12549253 PhiPsi125 said:


Quote:


If Wright, Flores, and Murphy all moved the other way 6 inches then we probably get out of that inning with zero runs and win the game 1-0.

They found the holes and had their inning. Our pitching was pretty darn good yesterday. Theirs was better.



Or Matz allow the opposing pitcher to get on base. Not getting that out was the killer, it opened the door for them.


Yes, that also. That stung.
RE: Not to make a big deal out of it, but you were absolutely  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 12:24 pm : link
In comment 12549372 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
targeting me, which is fine.



Quote:


For you, you are going to rip Duda every chance you get, while Wright who has been worst, and has had the more favorable pitching matchups, we aren't likely to hear a peep about. It's all good, but it becomes pretty predictable and grating.



I made the post, you can certainly comment on it. I don't see the big deal about posting how awful a player is. We've all done it. Duda HAS been trash this series. Contributed nothing. Wright is a close second to Duda. I really don't get not caring about the small sample size because it's irrelevant. We are in a do or die series. If you are invisible like Duda, Wright, and TdA for the most part, it's fair game to point out their inability to contribute. I understand it may be annoying to some...but so is the constant excuses we get from some posters about certain players. To each his own I guess. But I don't think we fans have been THAT bad with killing the team on their shortcomings. But some absolutely deserve it. This is the constant fear with Duda. All or nothing with him...and we got nothing this series. It's hard to build success around that.


Still think your dismissing the Dodgers pitching. Like I said, the first time we faced a good, not fantastic Cy Young winner, we scored 13 times. We have very good hitters and Duda and Wright are good players. I'm happy they are on my team. Sometimes you go up against a buzzsaw and the buzzsaw wins. It's fine if you want to point out a player had a bad series, but it's the "build success around" part that irks me. Duda has now had back to back fantastic seasons and he is absolutely an important piece to this team. How he did in this series doesn't effect that IMO. One has nothing to do with the other. And as streaky as he was in 2015, he wasn't nearly in 2014. It's baseball. Players go through streaks.
It sucks...  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 12:26 pm : link
And if I was a betting man, I'd bet heavily on the Dodgers in game 5 at home. That said, we aren't dead yet. We still have a chance.
Not dismissing the Dodgers pitching at all...they are great  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 12:34 pm : link
I've said as much plenty of times. My gripe is only that we did nothing to get them out of a rhythm. It may have not done much, but it may have been the difference in a low scoring game. Much like it was for the Dodgers last night who seemingly stepped out on every single pitch. Pedro and Dusty killed the Mets for this last night after the game.

As for Duda...listen, I love the guy...and you can look at the stats for the year and say "hey, he did great". Depending on what stats you look at, that's up for debate. The point is that he is/was ultra streaky, and yes it is tough to build success around that. Same thing with Granderson last year. Yes, players go through slumps. But they don't just disappear for extended periods of time at multiple points in the year. That is hard to plan around and can tank a team at the wrong time. We can disagree about that until the cows come home but I don't think it's worth either of our time. I get where you are coming from.

Let's talk about how we are going to destroy them next game...led by Duda, DW, and TdA!!
Duda has been very disappointing so far  
Eric on Li : 10/14/2015 12:40 pm : link
Thought he had that one last night, but in his first AB he took a strike right down broadway with a full count. I don't think it's pressure that gets to him, I think he's just massively streaky and makes his lows even lower because he gets extremely passive. He's a nice piece if you have him on a good contract but he's not a guy who you can build around. He'd be very wise to just take the rumored extension in the offseason guaranteeing him his arb years and buying out 1 year of FA (and maybe 1 option year). I think mentally his performance would benefit from knowing he has some stability vs. playing for a big deal.
Duda had an interesting season  
moespree : 10/14/2015 12:44 pm : link
By most metrics, yes, he actually did have a better season than 2014. More doubles, higher on base, higher OPS in 18 less games and 42 less plate appearances. Also only 3 less homeruns in those same lesser amount of games and plate appearances. But in those lesser appearances he had 3 more strikeouts than 2014. It's an odd season. The metrics say it's better, it certainly doesn't feel it. If anything it feel likes a flat lined season of amazing hot streaks and amazing cold streaks. Nothing in between. You can either get him out every time he comes up or you can't get him out at all every time he comes up.

It'd be a nice time for him to get into a hot streak again. That's an understatement.
RE: Not dismissing the Dodgers pitching at all...they are great  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 12:45 pm : link
In comment 12549427 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
I've said as much plenty of times. My gripe is only that we did nothing to get them out of a rhythm. It may have not done much, but it may have been the difference in a low scoring game. Much like it was for the Dodgers last night who seemingly stepped out on every single pitch. Pedro and Dusty killed the Mets for this last night after the game.

As for Duda...listen, I love the guy...and you can look at the stats for the year and say "hey, he did great". Depending on what stats you look at, that's up for debate. The point is that he is/was ultra streaky, and yes it is tough to build success around that. Same thing with Granderson last year. Yes, players go through slumps. But they don't just disappear for extended periods of time at multiple points in the year. That is hard to plan around and can tank a team at the wrong time. We can disagree about that until the cows come home but I don't think it's worth either of our time. I get where you are coming from.

Let's talk about how we are going to destroy them next game...led by Duda, DW, and TdA!!


Lol. Sounds good man!
RE: Duda had an interesting season  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 12:49 pm : link
In comment 12549446 moespree said:
Quote:
By most metrics, yes, he actually did have a better season than 2014. More doubles, higher on base, higher OPS in 18 less games and 42 less plate appearances. Also only 3 less homeruns in those same lesser amount of games and plate appearances. But in those lesser appearances he had 3 more strikeouts than 2014. It's an odd season. The metrics say it's better, it certainly doesn't feel it. If anything it feel likes a flat lined season of amazing hot streaks and amazing cold streaks. Nothing in between. You can either get him out every time he comes up or you can't get him out at all every time he comes up.

It'd be a nice time for him to get into a hot streak again. That's an understatement.


Didn't he finish the year in a hot streak though? I mean, didn't he just rip off like 3-4 HR in the last week or so of the season? He's faced some great pitching, and he's struggled over 4 games. Hardly a big deal. I'm glad we have him in the lineup against Greinke Thursday. I know that.
RE: Duda has been very disappointing so far  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 12:54 pm : link
In comment 12549438 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
Thought he had that one last night, but in his first AB he took a strike right down broadway with a full count. I don't think it's pressure that gets to him, I think he's just massively streaky and makes his lows even lower because he gets extremely passive. He's a nice piece if you have him on a good contract but he's not a guy who you can build around. He'd be very wise to just take the rumored extension in the offseason guaranteeing him his arb years and buying out 1 year of FA (and maybe 1 option year). I think mentally his performance would benefit from knowing he has some stability vs. playing for a big deal.

Define what makes a player you can build around? Duda is one of the best first baseman in the league. I really don't think that can be argued. He had a streaky year? How streaky has Cespedes been?? Granderson has made a career out of being streaky. Wright? TDA? We've seen all these players go through long sustained slumps. Anybody remember Delgado's tenure as a Met? Just don't understand this rational. It all balances out in the end which is why we don't generally look at small samples in baseball.
Sure  
moespree : 10/14/2015 12:55 pm : link
But that was the last week of the season. He's 2-15 in this series. Of course a huge part of it is the good pitching he has faced. But facing great pitching or not, this has largely been his 2015 season. Blistering hot one week, ice cold the next.
The option year  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 12:56 pm : link
Extension is LONG gone. Zero chance in a billion years he accepts that now. Sandy wouldn't even offer it anymore it would be such an insult.
RE: Sure  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 12:58 pm : link
In comment 12549478 moespree said:
Quote:
But that was the last week of the season. He's 2-15 in this series. Of course a huge part of it is the good pitching he has faced. But facing great pitching or not, this has largely been his 2015 season. Blistering hot one week, ice cold the next.


I don't really think he's been up and down week to week though. He had one brutal cold streak in May/June and then another mini one after he came off the DL and he had back issues late in the year.
Kershaw was Kershaw last night but Our hitting approach was poor  
TD : 10/14/2015 1:03 pm : link
As others have noted, we let him dictate tempo all game long and didn't try to slow him down or take smart swings. It was all hurry-up ABs and home run swings. No 2-strike hitting, stepping out, etc. I'm sure that if we had been able to get him out of the game in the 6th (even with the one run allowed), we would have gotten to the middle relief and scored more runs.

Oh well... Hope they have a better approach against Grienke tomorrow. They'll need it. At leastwe got Degrom on the mound.
I  
DanMetroMan : 10/14/2015 1:03 pm : link
think fans focus too much on "streaky". Pre-playoffs in general terms end of the year stats represent a players "resume". Winning games in April show up the same as games in August. Duda is a streaky player, essentially "all" players are if you aren't Gwynn or Ichiro. Duda has struggled this series but 1. It's 15 ab's 2. 2 starts vs. the best pitcher in baseball who is a lefty and 1 start vs. the likely NL Cy Young award winner. Who knows what the season looks like if Duda doesn't go on a RAMPAGE in late July hitting 9 homers over 8 starts with a 1.651 OPS? The Mets went 7-2 during that run including 3 1 run victories vs. the Nationals. Without Duda's heroics maybe they lose all 3? I'd love to see him have a big game, we need someone to step up but "Duda is sooooo streaky" is a bit overplayed.
Hardly a big deal? Ugh, come on man. What he did  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 1:04 pm : link
The last week or two of the season is irrelevant. Disappearing in the first four games of a five game series is the very definition of a huge deal. Yes, he has faced some tough lefties. So has Granderson. If anything, this just further defines how streaky he is and how it is hard to succeed around him. I hope he proves is all wrong. But if I was a betting man, I'd put money on him shitting the bed again next game.
RE: RE: Sure  
DanMetroMan : 10/14/2015 1:06 pm : link
In comment 12549488 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:
In comment 12549478 moespree said:


Quote:


But that was the last week of the season. He's 2-15 in this series. Of course a huge part of it is the good pitching he has faced. But facing great pitching or not, this has largely been his 2015 season. Blistering hot one week, ice cold the next.



I don't really think he's been up and down week to week though. He had one brutal cold streak in May/June and then another mini one after he came off the DL and he had back issues late in the year.


+1

Duda OPS by month
.915
.948
.576
.749
.976
.961

So he had an AWFUL June, a mediocre July and 4 excellent months bookending them
Dan, I respect your opinion and you are by far a more  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 1:13 pm : link
knowledgable fan than I. I'm sure you can bombard me with stats that will weaken my argument but after watching Duda this year there is no way I can agree that the streaky thing is overplayed. His streakiness has been discussed all season long. The stats you just posted makes it seem like he's a superstar. He's not. And while all players can be streaky, he takes it to a new level. Just how I feel after watching nearly every game this season.
Full disclosure...I'm aware I may be offfbase. Just how I feel  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 1:23 pm : link
I'm sure overall stats could prove me otherwise, lol.
RE: Dan, I respect your opinion and you are by far a more  
DanMetroMan : 10/14/2015 1:23 pm : link
In comment 12549534 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
knowledgable fan than I. I'm sure you can bombard me with stats that will weaken my argument but after watching Duda this year there is no way I can agree that the streaky thing is overplayed. His streakiness has been discussed all season long. The stats you just posted makes it seem like he's a superstar. He's not. And while all players can be streaky, he takes it to a new level. Just how I feel after watching nearly every game this season.


Phi,
I didn't exactly post advance numbers. Those are his OPS's by month. He was horrendous in June, mediocre in July and very good/great in the other months. I think at this point "OPS" is pretty much accepted as a "normal" stat by even the staunchest of "I don't like stats!" people

April/March he hit .325/.427/.488 over 23 games
May .276/.366/.582 over 27 games
June he was horrendous hitting .187/.312/.264
July his slump continued until late in the month when he went on his rampage which began on 7/25
August .304/.389/.587 over 13 games
Sept .227/.386/.576, but he hit 6 homers and walked more times than he struck out (15 vs. 14) so his OPS was a robust .961. Sept he simply had an unusually low BABIP (.196) otherwise he would have hit .260+
49  
DanMetroMan : 10/14/2015 1:28 pm : link
second half games Duda posted a .956 OPS with 15 homers and in 68 home games he was SUPERSTAR caliber (1.000 OPS). The Mets played 8 games from 7/25 to 8/2 winning 2/2 vs. the Dodgers, 3/3 vs. the Nationals, 4 of those 5 wins were 1 run games and Duda hit 9 homers hitting nearly .400. Who knows what the season looks like without that? The sweep of the Nats changed the season in my eyes.
True, but also who knows what the season looks like if he didn't  
PhiPsi125 : 10/14/2015 1:30 pm : link
disappear for essentially two straight months.
RE: RE: Duda has been very disappointing so far  
Eric on Li : 10/14/2015 1:56 pm : link
In comment 12549474 ZGiants98 said:
Quote:


Define what makes a player you can build around? Duda is one of the best first baseman in the league. I really don't think that can be argued. He had a streaky year? How streaky has Cespedes been?? Granderson has made a career out of being streaky. Wright? TDA? We've seen all these players go through long sustained slumps. Anybody remember Delgado's tenure as a Met? Just don't understand this rational. It all balances out in the end which is why we don't generally look at small samples in baseball.


Cespedes is a gold glove LF'er with the ability to play a premium position. If you consider him a CF'er he has elite offensive stats - possibly even best in baseball at his position. He's also shown that he can come up with big hits in big games and thrives in the spotlight. Out of the guys you listed he's the only one who at this phase in their career is worth a 100M contract (or in other words someone you would be willing to build your team around).

Duda is a very solid 1B but he is not elite at the position. Rizzo, Freeman, Gonzalez, Goldschmidt, and Votto are all pretty clearly better than he is and that's just NL. Also, streaky is 1 thing but for those 6 weeks or so around June he was literally the worst player in MLB. I'm a fan of his but if he were a FA right now I'd be very afraid to give him a big deal.

So as I said, very solid player if he's on a good contract, which fortunately for us he is. I could very well see him stringing together a career year next year if the overall lineup were better for the entire season, but I think one thing that would also help him is having security and stability with his contract situation. It would not shock me at all to see the Mets not sign Cespedes this offseason because he gets too expensive and instead resign a bunch of guys to extensions - including Duda, JdG, and Harvey.
Thanks for backing me up Dan.  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 2:25 pm : link
I think Duda's terrible June is burned in everyone's minds because it came at a time when we desperately needed offense. Everyone was hurt. This was before the Cespedes, Conforto, Uribe, and Johnson additions. We needed Duda to be our savior and he wasn't. The reality was he was very consistent and good for 4.5 months of he season and in a lot of ways was even better than he was in 2014.
ZGiants  
DanMetroMan : 10/14/2015 2:35 pm : link
I think the only place we disagree is, I think it's still worth speaking to Duda after the year about a reasonable extension. Maybe his price is beyond what makes sense but no harm in trying to use the "feel good" season as an approach in trying to keep a player. He's team controlled for 2 more. I'd offer to inflate his next 2 years salary + tack on 2 more + 2 "sweet" team options. Maybe he says no. But I wouldn't mind Duda locked up 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 with 2 additional options at BIG money (20ish) and buyout should Duda surprise/shock and be a David Ortiz type of long lasting player.
We got them where we want them  
spike : 10/14/2015 2:35 pm : link
On the Road and our backs against the wall, with our no 1 true ace on the mound.
As  
DanMetroMan : 10/14/2015 2:36 pm : link
you also noted, I think people are forgetting how bad the Mets lineup was around Duda. If anything his good early season months were even more impressive. The Mets lineup at times around him was COMICAL.
RE: RE: RE: Duda has been very disappointing so far  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 2:37 pm : link
In comment 12549661 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 12549474 ZGiants98 said:


Quote:




Define what makes a player you can build around? Duda is one of the best first baseman in the league. I really don't think that can be argued. He had a streaky year? How streaky has Cespedes been?? Granderson has made a career out of being streaky. Wright? TDA? We've seen all these players go through long sustained slumps. Anybody remember Delgado's tenure as a Met? Just don't understand this rational. It all balances out in the end which is why we don't generally look at small samples in baseball.



Cespedes is a gold glove LF'er with the ability to play a premium position. If you consider him a CF'er he has elite offensive stats - possibly even best in baseball at his position. He's also shown that he can come up with big hits in big games and thrives in the spotlight. Out of the guys you listed he's the only one who at this phase in their career is worth a 100M contract (or in other words someone you would be willing to build your team around).

Duda is a very solid 1B but he is not elite at the position. Rizzo, Freeman, Gonzalez, Goldschmidt, and Votto are all pretty clearly better than he is and that's just NL. Also, streaky is 1 thing but for those 6 weeks or so around June he was literally the worst player in MLB. I'm a fan of his but if he were a FA right now I'd be very afraid to give him a big deal.

So as I said, very solid player if he's on a good contract, which fortunately for us he is. I could very well see him stringing together a career year next year if the overall lineup were better for the entire season, but I think one thing that would also help him is having security and stability with his contract situation. It would not shock me at all to see the Mets not sign Cespedes this offseason because he gets too expensive and instead resign a bunch of guys to extensions - including Duda, JdG, and Harvey.


Your talking about him getting edged out by the absolute biggest stars in the game. He finished tenth in baseball in WAR and ninth in wRC+ and again, you are talking about MVP types barely ahead of him. He goes up even further in the rankings if you take his two year averages. Cespedes has not won a gold glove and I don't know how he's proven he can hit on the biggest stage. He hit one homerun in garbage time against a crappy pitcher since its "counted". For us, during the year, he had a raging hot streak sandwiched between two cold streaks. He's also having a career year and has never had this much success before. You could easily argue Duda is more consistent then Cespedes at this point in their careers offensively. Duda's a 3 WAR player. He's worth 21 million annually and considering how rare power is, probably more. If he were a free agent, he'd easily get a 4-5 year deal worth 21 per.
RE: ZGiants  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 2:42 pm : link
In comment 12549742 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
I think the only place we disagree is, I think it's still worth speaking to Duda after the year about a reasonable extension. Maybe his price is beyond what makes sense but no harm in trying to use the "feel good" season as an approach in trying to keep a player. He's team controlled for 2 more. I'd offer to inflate his next 2 years salary + tack on 2 more + 2 "sweet" team options. Maybe he says no. But I wouldn't mind Duda locked up 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 with 2 additional options at BIG money (20ish) and buyout should Duda surprise/shock and be a David Ortiz type of long lasting player.


I'd be fine offering him an extension but one of the draws with him accepting it before 2015 was that he wasn't making a lot in arbitration this year. Now he's in his last two years of arbitration where he already stands to make a good amount of money. For him to forgo free agency and his one shot at a big pay day in two years, I think you tear up his arbitration years and offer him 5 years/ 100 million right now. That's essentially only a three year / 65 million dollar extension. Only way I can see it working IMO so it's fair for both sides.
RE: As  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 2:57 pm : link
In comment 12549749 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
you also noted, I think people are forgetting how bad the Mets lineup was around Duda. If anything his good early season months were even more impressive. The Mets lineup at times around him was COMICAL.


This is true and I vividly remember him getting pitched around a ton in the earlier months.
Also if you inflate  
ZGiants98 : 10/14/2015 3:01 pm : link
His arbitration years, offer him two good years, and add two option years we are probably in the same ball park of 100 million I'd imagine also.
I think for everyone's sake  
SethFromAstoria : 10/14/2015 3:08 pm : link
analyzing anyone in the lineup based on last night's game is futile. Best thing to do in my opinion is just to acknowledge that this is how baseball works, especially in the playoffs. WHen you go against a pitcher like Kershaw you just accept that there was no woulda, coulda, shoulda. When the guy on the mound dominates, they are in control of the whole game and the one on one nature of the sport plays out with the elite pitcher making everyone look foolish. I think the baseball phrase we've all heard more than any other is "Great Pitching Always Beats Great Hitting". And he is beyond great. He's a generational lefty who struck out 300 this year.

Get your popcorn ready for next game and pray.

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