Cam Newton doing things that....got Colin Kaepernick Benched

In comment 12601267 David in LA said:

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I understood it originally to imply that his usage rate and success at converting running TD's is unprecedented.

I don't think you're hung up on it enough. He's a smart and articulate dude. He means exactly what he's saying and the way he's saying it.

To be fair, RB was the first one to question some dubious use of stats to interpret the situation (adding TD's).

A number of simple examples that could debunk the use of that for a universal measure.

line, but it's ok if people cringe about that...

this is fascinating? stuff but hard to follow.

MarshallOnMontana, your mother posts here too? Does she defend you? God bless her!

Then I'm done with this thread. The level of discussion here just isn't worth participating in. This is beyond absurd

I'm also starting to get hit with the realization that I have thought on and off for years, and that's that even maintaining a presence here or on any other Internet forum is a total waste of time. Pissing matches that aret with having with people who aren't worth talking to. Peace

...as a result when extending plays he hits on a few more deep strikes resulting in scores. It's a subtle advantage but an important one.

In comment 12601332 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Then I'm done with this thread. The level of discussion here just isn't worth participating in. This is beyond absurd I'm also starting to get hit with the realization that I have thought on and off for years, and that's that even maintaining a presence here or on any other Internet forum is a total waste of time. Pissing matches that aret with having with people who aren't worth talking to. Peace

I think everyone would agree on this....

Panthers OLine is better than the Giants
Stewart is better than Jennings.
Olsen is much, much, much, much better than Donnell
OBJ is far better than anyone Carolina has, but after that there are equal parts.
Panthers defense is much better than the Giants.

How do you disagree with this?

...

.

sure OBJ is better than what the panthers have on offense, but outside him.... who would play for Carolina?

RR? He cant even succeed with a top 3 WR next to him.
Donnell/Tye over Olsen?
Jennings over Stewart?
Carolina has a top 10 defense in YPG, the Giants are 32nd.

always seems to be a pissing match when one of these threads are made.

Let's break this into 4 groups:

WRs - serious edge to Giants due to Beckham
RBs - edge to Panthers
TEs - huge edge to the Panthers
OL - edge Panthers (significant by some analyses)

So how does Cam have "wayyyyyy less support" than Eli (ignoring D)? Beckham is awesome, but how does he make up for the Panthers edge everywhere else?

Links for OL rankings:
Football Outsiders

PFF (thru week 5)

but cmon dep, Eli has better weapons than Cam on offense.

Reuben Randle is a joke to us yet he'd be by far their best WR.

best human TE in the game. But I wouldn't even consider for one second taking Carolina's Offense over ours to surround Eli with.

In comment 12601382 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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but cmon dep, Eli has better weapons than Cam on offense. Reuben Randle is a joke to us yet he'd be by far their best WR.

He's marginally better than Ginn. The 2nd best offensive weapon on either team is Olsen and I don't think that's arguable. And Stewart is arguably the 3rd best skill position player on either team. Imagine what Eli-Beckham could do if they could get teams biting on play action? As much as the Giants OL has improved, Carolina's is still better (according to some unbiased observers in my previous posts).

In comment 12601398 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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best human TE in the game. But I wouldn't even consider for one second taking Carolina's Offense over ours to surround Eli with.

If I could combine the teams, I'm taking Eli/Beckham and then the rest of Carolina's offense (assuming OL counts as a group).

In comment 12601382 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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but cmon dep, Eli has better weapons than Cam on offense. Reuben Randle is a joke to us yet he'd be by far their best WR.

Ok, I admitted OBJ is worlds better than what they have. To me, there isnt much difference between Ginn/Randle to me. Brown and harris are a wash. But OL, RB< and TE and defense Carolina have pretty serious advantages.

come on be honest. Ginn is a joke. Randle is inconsistent, I'm far from a Randle fan and I think he's annoyingly soft. But Ginn is garbage, absolute trash.

Olsen is great but a WR threat like Beckham who can make plays all over the field trumps him by a large margin. Anyone suggesting Olsen and Beckham cancel each other out because of the other teams TE/WR situation is an idiot. Beckham is so much more valuable.

Jonathan Stewart is an averagish RB who gets hurt a lot. He's on the same level as Rashad Jennings. Marginal difference at best. Cam makes life a hell of a lot easier for Stewart because of his running ability.

you're wrong.

None of that matters, Cam isn't in the same universe as Eli.

is probably comparable to the difference between Jennings/Stewart.

So then it becomes what's more valuable? Beckham and an average OL or Olsen and a great OL? I can see either side.

But the point is that Cam's weapons aren't "wayyyyy less" than Eli's. Or worst in the NFL by any stretch of the imagination.

everything better than the Giants.

Ted Ginn Jr, who has never had 800 receiving yards in any year

Ted Ginn Jr, who has has had 5 touchdowns in a season once in history.

That guy's pretty good, right?

but I think it's closer to Joe's opinion than those disagreeing. Eli has clearly more help on Offense despite a worse OL.

The difference between Randle and Ginn is way larger than the difference between Stewart and Jennings imo. I don't think you guys understand how pathetically impotent this Panthers WR corps is. Joe might be prone to hyperbole but he's called this Panthers WR group a historically poor unit and it's tough to disagree with him when Ted fucking Ginn is the #1.

we're talking about weapons these guys have in 2015, so you're really comparing a gimpy Randle to a healthy Ginn.

In comment 12601426 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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come on be honest. Ginn is a joke. Randle is inconsistent, I'm far from a Randle fan and I think he's annoyingly soft. But Ginn is garbage, absolute trash. Olsen is great but a WR threat like Beckham who can make plays all over the field trumps him by a large margin. Anyone suggesting Olsen and Beckham cancel each other out because of the other teams TE/WR situation is an idiot. Beckham is so much more valuable. Jonathan Stewart is an averagish RB who gets hurt a lot. He's on the same level as Rashad Jennings. Marginal difference at best. Cam makes life a hell of a lot easier for Stewart because of his running ability.

Sorry I disagree. If you want to say RR is much better than Ginn, I just dont see it. They have been targeted the same amount of time with Randle having a 40 yard advantage, Ginn have a TD advantage. I think they both stink personally. I wouldnt want them anywhere near he Giants. But if I had to had one for this team, it would be Ginn. Ginn gives you the big play opposite of Beckham that this offense sorely lacks. Ginn's problem is drops. But at least he gets open, something Randle struggles with.

No one is comparing OBJ to Olsen. OBJ is in a world of his own. However, Olsen is excellent and to compare him to our TEs is just as silly as comparing OBJ to their WRs. I think Stewart is better than Jennings, but thats a matter of opinion.

In comment 12601451 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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but I think it's closer to Joe's opinion than those disagreeing. Eli has clearly more help on Offense despite a worse OL. The difference between Randle and Ginn is way larger than the difference between Stewart and Jennings imo. I don't think you guys understand how pathetically impotent this Panthers WR corps is. Joe might be prone to hyperbole but he's called this Panthers WR group a historically poor unit and it's tough to disagree with him when Ted fucking Ginn is the #1.

We arent saying Carolina's WRs are good by any means. I am saying outside of OBJ - the WR corps are very similar. I am astonished that people think Randle is a serviceable WR. On a team with OBJ, your 2nd WR should be putting up massive numbers with the attention that they receive.

In comment 12601451 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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but I think it's closer to Joe's opinion than those disagreeing. Eli has clearly more help on Offense despite a worse OL. The difference between Randle and Ginn is way larger than the difference between Stewart and Jennings imo. I don't think you guys understand how pathetically impotent this Panthers WR corps is. Joe might be prone to hyperbole but he's called this Panthers WR group a historically poor unit and it's tough to disagree with him when Ted fucking Ginn is the #1.

If only 2 guys + QB on the field matter than Joe might have a point. But the other 8 on the Panthers are clearly better than their Giants counterparts. And a versatile pass catching TE is a huge weapon in today's NFL which is somehow overlooked and ignored by Joe.

but Ginn doesn't, when Randle has 31 catches on 46 targets and averages more yards per game than and Ginn on his 20 on 47.

Ginn is fast, but you don't win the big play title for that.

you're hatred of Randle is blinding you.

Randle is so much better than Ginn it's not even funny. Ginn has deep speed sure but he is not an NFL-level WR, he's a KR/PR being forced into the #1 WR role.

I'll take Eli over Cam every single day without hesitation. But Eli has a better cast on Offense by a clear amount imo. Maybe not as large a difference as Joe says but pretty damn clear.

In comment 12601472 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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but Ginn doesn't, when Randle has 31 catches on 46 targets and averages more yards per game than and Ginn on his 20 on 47.

Eli is also more of an accurate passer than Newton too. And has played in 1 less game than Randle. Ginn also averages 1.8 YAC more than Randle as well, so obviously he is much better when the ball is in his hands.

In comment 12601480 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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you're hatred of Randle is blinding you. Randle is so much better than Ginn it's not even funny. Ginn has deep speed sure but he is not an NFL-level WR, he's a KR/PR being forced into the #1 WR role. I'll take Eli over Cam every single day without hesitation. But Eli has a better cast on Offense by a clear amount imo. Maybe not as large a difference as Joe says but pretty damn clear.

A healthy Randle is better, but he's been playing with a bad hammy for weeks now.

And "pretty damn clear" is an odd choice of words when they only guy clearly better is Beckham (who's had his own hammy issues). You're an idiot if you take Donnell or Jennings or the Giants OL over their Panthers counterparts.

In comment 12601480 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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you're hatred of Randle is blinding you. Randle is so much better than Ginn it's not even funny. Ginn has deep speed sure but he is not an NFL-level WR, he's a KR/PR being forced into the #1 WR role. I'll take Eli over Cam every single day without hesitation. But Eli has a better cast on Offense by a clear amount imo. Maybe not as large a difference as Joe says but pretty damn clear.

No one has ever given me a single thing that Randle does well. I agree Ginn stinks, never said he was good. But I dont think Randle is good whatsoever. RR may have better hands than Ginn, but Ginn has some serious playmaking ability as well.

Both their negatives outweigh their positives.

As far as supporting casts:

Jennings/Vereen/ Donnell/Beckham/Randle/ Harris
vs.
Stewart/Tolbert/Olsen/Ginn/Brown/Cotchery

You may give the Giants the edge their based on OBJ alone, but it could then be negated by comparing OLines. If you threw in defense, then its not even a comparison.

In comment 12601472 Ten Ton Hammer said:

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but Ginn doesn't, when Randle has 31 catches on 46 targets and averages more yards per game than and Ginn on his 20 on 47. Ginn is fast, but you don't win the big play title for that.

Umm, Ginn averages 49 ypg (+6 ypg rushing), Randle averages 48 ypg.

I'm pretty sure the conversation is strictly about the offensive side of the ball. OUtside of Khalil, the Panthers' OL isn't anything exceptional. IMO their OL is more or less the same as ours. Stewart gives the Panthers the edge at RB, OBJ gives our WR corps a huge advantage, and I don't think Randle is as horrible as dep likes to say. Dep just needs a whipping boy to keep Eli looking pristine perfect.

In comment 12601548 David in LA said:

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I'm pretty sure the conversation is strictly about the offensive side of the ball. OUtside of Khalil, the Panthers' OL isn't anything exceptional. IMO their OL is more or less the same as ours. Stewart gives the Panthers the edge at RB, OBJ gives our WR corps a huge advantage, and I don't think Randle is as horrible as dep likes to say. Dep just needs a whipping boy to keep Eli looking pristine perfect.

Yes Randle has demonstrated such consistent play that I need him as a whipping boy. Great analysis there.

talk about a grudge.

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Cry me a river about personal attacks and tone MarshallOnMontana : 1:21 pm : link : reply When a douche like Fmic is the target. The same guy who once insulted my mother because I dared say Harry Carson was whining too much about not making the hall. He's not going to cry and you shouldn't on his behalf

Didn't know I insulted your Mom, but then again, I've never challenged another BBI'er to a fight and actually give them a place to meet.

This thread and topic just get more and more bizarre. You keep saying I'm willfully ignoring your points, that I'm a weirdo, that I'm wholly dishonest.

The dishonest thing is the odd part. Mostly, people think I'm too honest, which translates into me being a dick. Of course, for all the name calling I'm supposedly known for, you'll see I didn't send any of those names your way - haven't in a long time.

So, for those who disagree with Joe here, he'll probably follow the routine:
- Reiterate his point as if saying it again makes it stronger
- Call you willfully ignorant for not understanding stats that have been twisted and contorted
- Start calling you a douche, weirdo, dishonest and other shit
- Finally, challenge you to fisticuffs on the corner of a major street in NYC.

And apparently don't insult his Mom, which must've been ages ago. Wouldn't surprise me if I simply called him a motherfucker and he snapped because it was right after his last injection of horse tranquilizer or some other anabolic shit.

however, your criticism is way over the top to the point where you regulate him to a completely useless player. He's clearly hobbled, but no one wants to hear that. I would wager the same people who are calling out Randle for not diving for the ball, and also stepping out of bounds are the same guys that accused Nicks of dogging it.

In comment 12601548 David in LA said:

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I'm pretty sure the conversation is strictly about the offensive side of the ball. OUtside of Khalil, the Panthers' OL isn't anything exceptional. IMO their OL is more or less the same as ours. Stewart gives the Panthers the edge at RB, OBJ gives our WR corps a huge advantage, and I don't think Randle is as horrible as dep likes to say. Dep just needs a whipping boy to keep Eli looking pristine perfect.

Football outsiders gives the CAR a slight edge over ours thru 8 weeks. PFF gives CAR a huge edge over ours thru 5 weeks (couldn't find more up-to-date info). Do you have any unbiased views claiming the Giants OL is better?

where did I say theirs was better?

Ginn is ideally a #4 WR who adds additional value to a team as a PR and playmaker with the ball in his hands (i.e. a weapon on reverses, quick screens, etc).

Though Ginn could be a better "fit" for some teams, since Randle is more a jack of all trades player and isn't really good/great at anything. Not a good deep threat, not a good slot guy, not a possession WR, etc. Ginn is very good with the ball in his hands (of course getting his hands to hold onto the ball is another challenge).

now that I think about it, maybe I said "MoM is a fucktard", and the Nandrolone told Joe I was talking about him?

last week's thread was pretty funny, as is this one. Last weeks thread, IMO, was started to glorify Cam as some supreme athlete doing things that are unimaginable.

Part of that is true. He's scored a ton of rushing TD's for a QB. But who really cares? The thread was so profound that I was waiting to see something earth shattering and I left with what I already knew, Cam runs it a lot and doesn't pass very well.

If i'm going to glorify an athlete, it better be for some absurd achievement. Chances are we see someone come along who is the next athletic freak. Vick took the lead by storm in Atlanta, Cam has his own variation now, and then there will be another one.

Will Cam learn how to pass far more accurately, that's really all I care about.

*

In comment 12601624 UConn4523 said:

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last week's thread was pretty funny, as is this one. Last weeks thread, IMO, was started to glorify Cam as some supreme athlete doing things that are unimaginable. Part of that is true. He's scored a ton of rushing TD's for a QB. But who really cares? The thread was so profound that I was waiting to see something earth shattering and I left with what I already knew, Cam runs it a lot and doesn't pass very well. If i'm going to glorify an athlete, it better be for some absurd achievement. Chances are we see someone come along who is the next athletic freak. Vick took the lead by storm in Atlanta, Cam has his own variation now, and then there will be another one. Will Cam learn how to pass far more accurately, that's really all I care about.

That's what I'm trying to figure out as well. Cam is doing these amazing things... and is on pace to produce exactly as many TDs as Eli is this year. Which means he's having a really good year but not having some profound gamechanging effect on the league.

Earth shattering and unprecedented? Yay?

But I do challenge the significance. Cam Newton is fantastic at running the ball in from inside the 10 yard line. That's nice and all, but is it worth all the hyperbole about "He's doing things we've never seen before!"

As I said in the first thread on the subject, Tebow produced comparable combined TD numbers in his brief time as a starter. Doesn't mean he was a good QB. No, I'm not saying Tebow is anything close to Newton as a QB, because he obviously is far inferior. I'm just saying that the numbers he's citing don't mean a whole helluva lot.

In comment 12601641 YAJ2112 said:

Quote:

In comment 12601624 UConn4523 said: Quote: last week's thread was pretty funny, as is this one. Last weeks thread, IMO, was started to glorify Cam as some supreme athlete doing things that are unimaginable. Part of that is true. He's scored a ton of rushing TD's for a QB. But who really cares? The thread was so profound that I was waiting to see something earth shattering and I left with what I already knew, Cam runs it a lot and doesn't pass very well. If i'm going to glorify an athlete, it better be for some absurd achievement. Chances are we see someone come along who is the next athletic freak. Vick took the lead by storm in Atlanta, Cam has his own variation now, and then there will be another one. Will Cam learn how to pass far more accurately, that's really all I care about. That's what I'm trying to figure out as well. Cam is doing these amazing things... and is on pace to produce exactly as many TDs as Eli is this year. Which means he's having a really good year but not having some profound gamechanging effect on the league.

He's actually on pace to produce less TDs than Manning, even factoring in the rushing TDs and have double the INTs.

In comment 12601706 Matt M. said:

Quote:

In comment 12601641 YAJ2112 said: Quote: In comment 12601624 UConn4523 said: Quote: last week's thread was pretty funny, as is this one. Last weeks thread, IMO, was started to glorify Cam as some supreme athlete doing things that are unimaginable. Part of that is true. He's scored a ton of rushing TD's for a QB. But who really cares? The thread was so profound that I was waiting to see something earth shattering and I left with what I already knew, Cam runs it a lot and doesn't pass very well. If i'm going to glorify an athlete, it better be for some absurd achievement. Chances are we see someone come along who is the next athletic freak. Vick took the lead by storm in Atlanta, Cam has his own variation now, and then there will be another one. Will Cam learn how to pass far more accurately, that's really all I care about. That's what I'm trying to figure out as well. Cam is doing these amazing things... and is on pace to produce exactly as many TDs as Eli is this year. Which means he's having a really good year but not having some profound gamechanging effect on the league. He's actually on pace to produce less TDs than Manning, even factoring in the rushing TDs and have double the INTs.

Joe did the math above correctly, 34.2 pace for Cam vs 34 for Eli. Cam has had his bye already so they've only played 7 games vs 8 for Eli.

Sorry...forgot about the bye. But, the turnovers and completion % are a big enough difference to end the discussion right there.

In comment 12601734 Matt M. said:

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Sorry...forgot about the bye. But, the turnovers and completion % are a big enough difference to end the discussion right there.

Not even MoM was arguing that Cam is better than Eli.