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Giants Rebuild Process: Will fans have patience?

NYG27 : 11/4/2015 6:05 pm
The 2013 season started with the Giants going 0-6 and had the fortune of facing some teams lead by backup QBs late in the season that helped them to finish 7-3. Although most of that was smoke and mirrors.

2013 Giants had six blow outs, where we lost to Philly (-15), Denver (-18), SD (-23), Seattle (-23), KC (-24) and Carolina by (-38) points. Not to mention this Giants team was shut out twice (Car/Sea) and were just a 69 yard Victor Cruz TD away from a 3rd shutout by the Chiefs.

How did we get to this point?

After the 2011 Superbowl run, Mara/Reese/Coughlin must have decided that they wanted to be the first team to play at home in the Superbowl at the end of the 2013 season. In stead of making some tough difficult personnel decisions to rebuild and restock this roster, they instead decided to make one more run with the core of that 2011 Superbowl roster.

So at the end of 2013, we were stuck with Eli having his worst season as a starter, with career low 18 TDs (full season) and career high 27 INTs. Injuries (an NFL high on IR) and under whelming performances on both sides of the ball.......it was clear this Giants team was broken and the roster needed an over haul heading into 2014.

PHASE ONE - OFFENSE

Fix the offense.

In 2014 Ben McAdoo was hired to install a QB friendly west coast offense. The O-line had some re-enforcement with signing Geoff Schwartz, who most considered the #1 guard on the free agent market in 2014. They also added a second round pick Weston Richburg, who most considered the #1 center prospect in the draft. Along with 2013 #1 pick Justin Pugh, they were expected to shore up and protect Eli.

They also got Manning more weapons by signing Rashard Jenning and drafting Andre Williams. The team also invested their #1 draft pick on Odell Beckham who had a monster breakout season and has established himself as one of the elite players in the league.

What went wrong?

In 2014, the Giants like the previous year, lead the NFL in injuries and players on IR. Injuries to O-line, Victor Cruz and Rashard Jennings delayed the developement of the offense a bit in Phase One.

So in 2015, the Giants further upgraded their O-line by drafting Eric Flowers with their #1 overall pick. Along with adding another weapon for Eli in the passing game with signing Shane Vereen as a free agent.

OUTCOME OF PHASE ONE - Offense has made great strides in McAdoo's 2nd season as Offensive Coordinator. Team has the young foundation on the left side of the O-line to build upon going forward with Flowers, Pugh and Richburg. Eli has been highly efficient completing over 64% of his passes and has thrown 47 TDs to only 18 INTs in just one and a half years in this system. Not to mention his only real weapon during this time has been Odell Beckham.

Going forward, this phase should be completed by the 2016 off season. Giants need to shore up their right side of their O-line, improve the TE position overall and get one more high caliber WR to compliment Beckham. They invested alot of free agent $$$ on Jennings\Vereen and a mid round pick on Williams. So not sure if addressing RB would be in their plans unless they get one at their right price.

PHASE TWO - DEFENSE

While the offense got the majority of the attention in Phase One, the defensive overall was pushed back a bit.

Giants re-hired Steve Spagnuolo in 2015 as their Defensive Coordinator. With so many holes to fix up on this defense and most of the available resources being spent to address fixing the offense, seemed the Giants used the draft to improve defense with Landon Collins and Owamagbe Odighizuwa. Then they invested in upgrading their special teams via free agency with kick returner Dwayne Harris and several other signings to shore up ST coverage. They then wrapped up some more cap savings by cutting Steve Weatherford and trading for Brad Wing from the Steelers.

OUTCOME OF PHASE TWO - Way too early too tell. Spagnuolo needs another off season to re-enforce via free agency and draft players that fit his defense. Hankins, Bromley, Kennard, Collins and Odighizuwa have been some nice young additions to this defense. Although the Giants need to focus more attention to Phase Two and spend more high draft picks and $$$ on impact free agents in the 2016 offseason. Positives are the Special Teams focus has been improved over recent years with better kickoff\punt coverage, Wing has been solid and Harris has been a weapon on returns.

BOTTOM LINE - Firing Coughlin or Reese and starting from square one is not the answer. We are seeing improvements from the offense and special teams. We all know our defense if bad but with Spagnuolo hired, we do need to give them another full off season to bring in players to fit his system.

Personally, I didn't see the talent on this 2015 team to be enough to contend this year. All I wanted to see is the continued improvements of our offense and our young O-line. Anything else they did this year was always gravy. In my opinion, 2016 was the year to start contending and having a 3 year window with a young core on both sides of the line to make another title run while Eli is in his prime.

Do Giants fans have the patience to let this rebuild play out?

What are the options?  
Deej : 11/4/2015 6:08 pm : link
Become Jets fans? Forfeit PSLs? Armed rebellion?

The answer is yes.
Im not saying we will, must, or should rebuild  
Deej : 11/4/2015 6:08 pm : link
just dismissing the notion that fans are the problem.
Seeing as we don't have a vote  
jcn56 : 11/4/2015 6:09 pm : link
the question is moot. The real question is whether ownership will have the patience.
Think while ELI is displaying  
TMS : 11/4/2015 6:15 pm : link
skills that indicate he is in his prime, will keep a major restructuring (firing) on hold for a few more years. We have our best coaching staff in place since Coughlin came on board. Our philosophy on the draft has changed and we have done better. Think we are on the upswing now.
RE: Seeing as we don't have a vote  
NYG27 : 11/4/2015 6:16 pm : link
In comment 12602033 jcn56 said:
Quote:
the question is moot. The real question is whether ownership will have the patience.


jcn56, I do think the fans patience is directly tied with ownership's. Large portion with how long Mara is willing to stick with this will be tied to fan reaction toward the end of this season.
We need one more infusion of talent this offseason  
David in LA : 11/4/2015 6:17 pm : link
I thought many agreed with this notion prior to the season.
When it's estimated  
EddieNYG : 11/4/2015 6:17 pm : link
That we will have close to $40 million in cap space to spend this offseason, I think rebuilding the Defense won't take too long.
RE: RE: Seeing as we don't have a vote  
Mad Mike : 11/4/2015 6:19 pm : link
In comment 12602038 NYG27 said:
Quote:
jcn56, I do think the fans patience is directly tied with ownership's. Large portion with how long Mara is willing to stick with this will be tied to fan reaction toward the end of this season.

Like it has the past few years, when there have been lots of empty seats late in the year? Mara certainly hasn't stuck with things because of any positive reaction from the fans. And if/when he makes a change it won't be because of any negative fan reaction.
Only on BBI...  
ThatLimerickGuy : 11/4/2015 6:27 pm : link
Do a large number of fans talk rebuild when their team is in first place after 8 weeks.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. While the majority of Giants fans I have met are rational and probably by and large a very "educated" fan base, there are some screwballs who don't get it and never will. Basically they act like entitled spoiled brats who clearly have no concept of the NFL, parity, or the ebbs and flows of a season.

We aren't the Patriots who are always going to be 6-2 or 7-1 after 8 games. They play in a chump division that hasn't been able to field a consistently good team other than the Pats for over a decade. They are always great don't get me wrong but how many Super Bowls have they won in the last ten years? The answer is TWO, the same as the shitty Tom Coughlin Giants that apparently need a complete rebuild.

The Giants have warts, just as every single team in the NFL except for one right now does, and even that mighty juggernaut needed to be bailed out by a dropped TD pass against the Jets.

What the heck would you chronic complainers do if you were Browns or Lions fans. You would be on a constant suicide watch.

How about this- we get healthy Amukumara back, JPP to maybe at least draw attention from OL back and get SOMETHING of a pass rush, and take your chances of getting hot in the end.

How about we try that BEFORE we start talking about rebuilds? If you want to have this conversation in late December if the Giants tank it then I'll be all ears. Doing it now just reeks of trying to talk yourself down from getting excited so as to not be disappointed.

Well I say FUCK THAT let's start running this division, get hot, get healthy, gel on D and make a run.

Rebuild...SMH

Just a point of comparison  
BillT : 11/4/2015 6:30 pm : link
"They invested a lot of free agent $$$ on Jennings\Vereen..."

Jennings\Vereen based on average contract value cost the Giants $6.6 mil/year. Based on average contract value the Eagles 3 RBs, Murray/Mathews/Sproles cost the Eagles $16 mil/year. Thought that was prtetty eye opening about Kelly's cap management.
Not sure the cap money  
joeinpa : 11/4/2015 6:30 pm : link
will build a defense.....a key free agent can help yes, but just to bring new guys in.....that is a recipe for mediocrity
RE: Only on BBI...  
Big Blue '56 : 11/4/2015 6:45 pm : link
In comment 12602045 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
Do a large number of fans talk rebuild when their team is in first place after 8 weeks.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. While the majority of Giants fans I have met are rational and probably by and large a very "educated" fan base, there are some screwballs who don't get it and never will. Basically they act like entitled spoiled brats who clearly have no concept of the NFL, parity, or the ebbs and flows of a season.

We aren't the Patriots who are always going to be 6-2 or 7-1 after 8 games. They play in a chump division that hasn't been able to field a consistently good team other than the Pats for over a decade. They are always great don't get me wrong but how many Super Bowls have they won in the last ten years? The answer is TWO, the same as the shitty Tom Coughlin Giants that apparently need a complete rebuild.

The Giants have warts, just as every single team in the NFL except for one right now does, and even that mighty juggernaut needed to be bailed out by a dropped TD pass against the Jets.

What the heck would you chronic complainers do if you were Browns or Lions fans. You would be on a constant suicide watch.

How about this- we get healthy Amukumara back, JPP to maybe at least draw attention from OL back and get SOMETHING of a pass rush, and take your chances of getting hot in the end.

How about we try that BEFORE we start talking about rebuilds? If you want to have this conversation in late December if the Giants tank it then I'll be all ears. Doing it now just reeks of trying to talk yourself down from getting excited so as to not be disappointed.

Well I say FUCK THAT let's start running this division, get hot, get healthy, gel on D and make a run.

Rebuild...SMH


What a great, great post..There's no rebuilding in a parity based league..Fill in areas of need via FA and the draft, hope to stay competitively healthy and have a franchise QB..
Can this draft room rebuild it  
Giants2012 : 11/4/2015 6:58 pm : link
quicker than 5 years is a better question.
RE: Can this draft room rebuild it  
BillT : 11/4/2015 7:04 pm : link
In comment 12602069 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
quicker than 5 years is a better question.

With 40+ mil in cap room the draft isn'tthe only way it's going to be rebuilt.
Wow  
Giants2012 : 11/4/2015 7:27 pm : link
thanks Bill

RE: Only on BBI...  
DonQuixote : 11/4/2015 7:31 pm : link
In comment 12602045 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
Do a large number of fans talk rebuild when their team is in first place after 8 weeks.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. While the majority of Giants fans I have met are rational and probably by and large a very "educated" fan base, there are some screwballs who don't get it and never will. Basically they act like entitled spoiled brats who clearly have no concept of the NFL, parity, or the ebbs and flows of a season.

We aren't the Patriots who are always going to be 6-2 or 7-1 after 8 games. They play in a chump division that hasn't been able to field a consistently good team other than the Pats for over a decade. They are always great don't get me wrong but how many Super Bowls have they won in the last ten years? The answer is TWO, the same as the shitty Tom Coughlin Giants that apparently need a complete rebuild.

The Giants have warts, just as every single team in the NFL except for one right now does, and even that mighty juggernaut needed to be bailed out by a dropped TD pass against the Jets.

What the heck would you chronic complainers do if you were Browns or Lions fans. You would be on a constant suicide watch.

How about this- we get healthy Amukumara back, JPP to maybe at least draw attention from OL back and get SOMETHING of a pass rush, and take your chances of getting hot in the end.

How about we try that BEFORE we start talking about rebuilds? If you want to have this conversation in late December if the Giants tank it then I'll be all ears. Doing it now just reeks of trying to talk yourself down from getting excited so as to not be disappointed.

Well I say FUCK THAT let's start running this division, get hot, get healthy, gel on D and make a run.

Rebuild...SMH


+++
Limerick  
exiled : 11/4/2015 7:32 pm : link
Loved your post. Said everything I would have, but better.
Thanks, and Go Giants!
RE: Only on BBI...  
Giants2012 : 11/4/2015 7:37 pm : link
In comment 12602045 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
Do a large number of fans talk rebuild when their team is in first place after 8 weeks.


you post makes me wonder how often you watch the team rather than simply checking the standings or understanding why.
RE: Wow  
BillT : 11/4/2015 7:45 pm : link
In comment 12602092 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
thanks Bill

If you knew this why did you put the whole thing on the "draft room"? Oh, and you're welcome.
Will fans have patience?  
Upstate_Giants_fan : 11/4/2015 7:47 pm : link
Yes, probably - again, what's the choice

Will they whine like a 40-year old twice-divorced bitch with PMS in the meantime?

Big yes.
And before anyone calls the PC police  
Upstate_Giants_fan : 11/4/2015 7:49 pm : link
I used to be a 30-year old twice-divorced bitter dickhead and freely admit it.
RE: RE: Wow  
Giants2012 : 11/4/2015 7:49 pm : link
In comment 12602117 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 12602092 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


thanks Bill



If you knew this why did you put the whole thing on the "draft room"? Oh, and you're welcome.


B/c you can't name one team that has ever spent a ton in free agency that has suceeded.
There once was a Giants fan from Nantucket.....  
micky : 11/4/2015 7:51 pm : link
who saw the Giants play and wasn't thrilled,
Said be patient, and let's rebuild,
Because, "what the hey, what the hell,
Just fuck it.
RE: Can this draft room rebuild it  
The_Boss : 11/4/2015 7:55 pm : link
In comment 12602069 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
quicker than 5 years is a better question.


This is my concern as well. There are more holes on this roster now than 2013 and 2014. So many that I don't see the same quick fix in one offseason that many here do. The draft is shaping up to be very weak. FA is less of a crapshoot, but we cannot go dumpster diving again this spring with close to $40 million to spend. Another thing is many here treat our rebuild in a vacuum. Dallas is a better team than us with Romo, and by a wide margin. With Romo, they're likely 5-2 (and sweeping us) and we're 3-5. They'll have close to $8 million in cap space and I'm sure Jones will bump that number up as needed. They've never hesitated to go big game hunting in FA either. They'll enter 2016 as the favorite in the East next year. And 2 weeks ago, the Eagles proved again that they still hold a major talent advantage over us at the LOS. Kelly isn't afraid to shake things up either. The prognosticators will undoubtably see them as better than us as well. So while we will improve, so will our biggest rivals, who currently possess better rosters than us by a pretty significant margin.
Salary cap space  
The_Boss : 11/4/2015 7:58 pm : link
for 2016 (per over the cap):
NYG $40 million
Dallas $8 million
Philly $17 million


We are all in OK shape.
The most frustrating part of the equation  
NewBlue : 11/4/2015 8:00 pm : link
Is the incessant injuries on this team.
Granted this is not a scientific rant taking into account all teams injured players, but we lose at least 1 significant contributor per week, and when we go down it's not typically a 1 week thing.
Rebuilding is a myth in today's NFL  
AP in Halfmoon : 11/4/2015 8:14 pm : link
I didn't read the posts and appreciate the effort but the premise is wrong. Teams retool on the fly.
RE: RE: RE: Wow  
BillT : 11/4/2015 8:57 pm : link
In comment 12602123 Giants2012 said:
Quote:
In comment 12602117 BillT said:


Quote:


In comment 12602092 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


thanks Bill



If you knew this why did you put the whole thing on the "draft room"? Oh, and you're welcome.



B/c you can't name one team that has ever spent a ton in free agency that has suceeded.

So should we just give up or leave our cap money unspent because we are doomed?
RE: Rebuilding is a myth in today's NFL  
Big Blue '56 : 11/4/2015 9:03 pm : link
In comment 12602150 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
I didn't read the posts and appreciate the effort but the premise is wrong. Teams retool on the fly.


Bingo..Such a simple concept and rather easy to reconcile, but c'est la vie..People give lip service to "it's a long season, things take time to gel, the injured have to return and it's a process." UNTIL they have to put their money with their lip service is when times get bumpy..
RE: RE: Can this draft room rebuild it  
Giants2012 : 11/4/2015 9:05 pm : link
In comment 12602129 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 12602069 Giants2012 said:


Quote:


quicker than 5 years is a better question.



This is my concern as well. There are more holes on this roster now than 2013 and 2014. So many that I don't see the same quick fix in one offseason that many here do. The draft is shaping up to be very weak. FA is less of a crapshoot, but we cannot go dumpster diving again this spring with close to $40 million to spend. Another thing is many here treat our rebuild in a vacuum. Dallas is a better team than us with Romo, and by a wide margin. With Romo, they're likely 5-2 (and sweeping us) and we're 3-5. They'll have close to $8 million in cap space and I'm sure Jones will bump that number up as needed. They've never hesitated to go big game hunting in FA either. They'll enter 2016 as the favorite in the East next year. And 2 weeks ago, the Eagles proved again that they still hold a major talent advantage over us at the LOS. Kelly isn't afraid to shake things up either. The prognosticators will undoubtably see them as better than us as well. So while we will improve, so will our biggest rivals, who currently possess better rosters than us by a pretty significant margin.


+1
There is no question in my mind  
AP in Halfmoon : 11/4/2015 9:08 pm : link
The Giants can make a splash next year with a pass rusher, LB, CB, etc. Of course, the real challenge is what to do with some of the core with a history of injuries.
i get it....  
ThatLimerickGuy : 11/4/2015 9:08 pm : link
If you want to quit on this team and focus on next year.

Watching a team give up 52 will do that to some people.

I'm not in the business of telling anyone how to approach their fandom but the problem is when the Giants do get hot these will be the same guys who are all of a sudden Johnny Go Blue.

Basically:

When Giants decide to get hot,
some of you fans better not,
Start screaming Go Giants!
When you thought they were the Lions,
And barely gave them a shot.

<--BOWS-->

Giants2012  
AP in Halfmoon : 11/4/2015 9:11 pm : link
I believe the larger issue is the health of key players. This team is closer than it looks if reasonably healthy.
RE: Giants2012  
BillT : 11/4/2015 9:18 pm : link
In comment 12602266 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
I believe the larger issue is the health of key players. This team is closer than it looks if reasonably healthy.

No common sense allowed. We're doomed. Filling out the roster with some key FA can't possibly get it done even if JPP and Cruz and Prince and Beatty all return. Doomed.
Offensively the team is 1 player away from being special  
hitdog42 : 11/4/2015 9:22 pm : link
With Beatty healthy we need either a te or another wr

Defensively there are more issues but it's not massive

This is the nfl there are few great teams and with Eli we always have a shot in the playoffs
There is no long rebuild
A solid pass rusher  
AP in Halfmoon : 11/4/2015 9:28 pm : link
would make a huge difference and help cover some warts in the secondary.
"Giants Rebuild Process: Will fans have patience?"  
short lease : 11/4/2015 9:38 pm : link
Do we have a choice?

I'm here for life.
RE: RE: Giants2012  
Giants2012 : 11/4/2015 9:50 pm : link
In comment 12602275 BillT said:
Quote:
In comment 12602266 AP in Halfmoon said:


Quote:


I believe the larger issue is the health of key players. This team is closer than it looks if reasonably healthy.


No common sense allowed. We're doomed. Filling out the roster with some key FA can't possibly get it done even if JPP and Cruz and Prince and Beatty all return. Doomed.


You're an ass.
Looking at this roster even when healthy  
Rjanyg : 11/4/2015 9:54 pm : link
A true center field free safety, a pass rushing 3 Tech DT and a MLB to replace Beason should be draft priorities. FA might be used to bring a corner, TE, WR. DE.

All is not lost with this team.
RE: Giants2012  
Giants2012 : 11/4/2015 9:57 pm : link
In comment 12602266 AP in Halfmoon said:
Quote:
I believe the larger issue is the health of key players. This team is closer than it looks if reasonably healthy.


Well, they have no safeties who can cover as Collins is a down in the box safety. They have one linebacker, one DT, maybe one DE. Health or not, they likely have the least talented defensive roster in the league.

On offense, which HB keeps opponents DC wary? Is Schwartz any good? Which TE can we trust?

The talent is slim and holes everywhere b/c they drafted miserably. Granted, most of the league looks very sloppy but these issues go way beyond health IMO.
A "rebuild process"  
reesesux : 11/4/2015 10:07 pm : link
is an antiquated notion in the NFL nowadays.

Either win f***ing right now, or next year. Simple as that.
This team is rebuilding.  
FStubbs : 11/4/2015 10:14 pm : link
Bottom line.

The front office has made some mistakes, no doubt. So do other front offices. But the fact remains a large part of the current state of the team is due to the unprecedented strike of injuries that have gutted the team.

As I've pointed out before, we should just now be winding down the Snee/Diehl era on the line. Imagine our OL with Snee and Diehl a little past a normal offensive lineman's prime on the right side of our line.

Our starting defensive ends should be Justin Tuck and JPP.

Heck, we should be winding down the Corey Webster and Terrell Thomas era at CB.

Let's not get into Kenny Phillips at safety. Or Nicks. Manningham. Steve Smith. Cruz. Chad Jones. Jon Goff. Clint Sintim (laugh all you want, but he was injured way more than he played. Who really knows what we had with him?). Boss. Ballard. Beckum. (Laugh again, but he was showing life before injuries got him). It goes on and on.

Do we need to pull that chart out again? Literally no team in the NFL has had to deal with the avalanche of career altering injuries the Giants have.

I'd say it's a miracle that we have a roster of scrappy players who have eked out a 4-4 record despite facing a deficit in talent against every opponent faced this year. And in a bad division, 4-4 seems to be good enough to be in first place. At the end of the day, if you're a fan of the Giants, you don't care if they're 1-7 if the other three teams are 0-8.
I believe fans  
AP in Halfmoon : 11/4/2015 10:23 pm : link
underrate the impact of a pass rusher and a healthy Prince. This team isn't as far away as it seemed last Sunday.
Both Prince and JPP  
reesesux : 11/4/2015 10:27 pm : link
are kind of injury prone-ish. Fireworks notwithstanding.

I defo would not give either them a huge contract ext.
RE: i get it....  
micky : 11/4/2015 10:31 pm : link
In comment 12602257 ThatLimerickGuy said:
Quote:
If you want to quit on this team and focus on next year.

Watching a team give up 52 will do that to some people.

I'm not in the business of telling anyone how to approach their fandom but the problem is when the Giants do get hot these will be the same guys who are all of a sudden Johnny Go Blue.

Basically:

When Giants decide to get hot,
some of you fans better not,
Start screaming Go Giants!
When you thought they were the Lions,
And barely gave them a shot.

<--BOWS-->



Now that's! A limerick!
I don't like the naysayers  
grizz299 : 11/5/2015 6:45 am : link
Basically they act like entitled spoiled brats who clearly have no concept of the NFL, parity, or the ebbs and flows of a season.

But I don't the OP falls into that category, I think his post was thoughtful and appropriate. I think, in this instance, it's the attacker who personalizes and gets snooty that is the naysayer.
We have had patience....  
EricJ : 11/5/2015 7:14 am : link
and it feels like we have been rebuilding for three years.... by putting bandaids on gun shot wounds.
The fans will  
RetroJint : 11/5/2015 7:31 am : link
But Mara will not. He painted himself in a corner with his state-of-the team analysis that he gave last January. Coughlin either makes the playoffs, or he is out. His assessment proved to be bi-polar when he later gave Spagnuolo a tacit pass when he remarked that the returning Giants DC was not a miracle worker. If the defense were that bad, how could Mara simultaneously demand the playoffs from his HC?

Sunday marks the second must-win game for Tom Coughlin this season. The first was the Cowboys game two weeks ago. Should the Giants lose, they will still be in a tie for first place, seven games remain, they can win them all, yada yada. That is what the math says. The reality, however, shows a team that will be 1 game under water with NE on deck. I think Tom Coughlin remains a great coach. He is simply being asked to deliver the undeliverable this season, even in a weakened NFC East.

Therefore, a new staff with all that comes with it. From Mara's perspective, do you sack a near Hall-of-Fame coach and replace him with one of his assistants? Do you people realize what the implication would be? I realize that Tom's run with the Giants is coming to an end. I simply shudder at the thought of the Giants going forward without him. He has been magnificent these last 3 plus years, holding this thing together. He made a very unfortunate DC choice in Spagnuolo. I forgive him. But it is must-win time Sunday, fellas, regardless.
RE: The fans will  
EricJ : 11/5/2015 8:02 am : link
In comment 12602507 RetroJint said:
Quote:
But Mara will not. He painted himself in a corner with his state-of-the team analysis that he gave last January. Coughlin either makes the playoffs, or he is out. His assessment proved to be bi-polar when he later gave Spagnuolo a tacit pass when he remarked that the returning Giants DC was not a miracle worker. If the defense were that bad, how could Mara simultaneously demand the playoffs from his HC?

Sunday marks the second must-win game for Tom Coughlin this season. The first was the Cowboys game two weeks ago. Should the Giants lose, they will still be in a tie for first place, seven games remain, they can win them all, yada yada. That is what the math says. The reality, however, shows a team that will be 1 game under water with NE on deck. I think Tom Coughlin remains a great coach. He is simply being asked to deliver the undeliverable this season, even in a weakened NFC East.

Therefore, a new staff with all that comes with it. From Mara's perspective, do you sack a near Hall-of-Fame coach and replace him with one of his assistants? Do you people realize what the implication would be? I realize that Tom's run with the Giants is coming to an end. I simply shudder at the thought of the Giants going forward without him. He has been magnificent these last 3 plus years, holding this thing together. He made a very unfortunate DC choice in Spagnuolo. I forgive him. But it is must-win time Sunday, fellas, regardless.


He DID paint himself into a corner but will also use the injury excuse to keep this staff
There's no big rebuild in the NFL  
Gman11 : 11/5/2015 8:17 am : link
You want a five year plan? How many guys are on the team from 2010?

With the way the turnover in players happens in the NFL, your rebuild plan better take 1 or 2 years or you are rebuilding every single year.
RE: RE: Seeing as we don't have a vote  
jcn56 : 11/5/2015 8:22 am : link
In comment 12602038 NYG27 said:
Quote:
In comment 12602033 jcn56 said:


Quote:


the question is moot. The real question is whether ownership will have the patience.



jcn56, I do think the fans patience is directly tied with ownership's. Large portion with how long Mara is willing to stick with this will be tied to fan reaction toward the end of this season.


If this were true, TC would be gone already. The Giants are lucky in the sense that they're sold out forever thanks to the PSLs, so they don't have to appease fans to keep the revenues flowing.

And I'm not saying that ownership's patience is necessarily a bad thing; they have access to data that we don't, and can better locate where the fault in the past few years of poor performance lies. They shouldn't be making decisions based on how angry fans are.
In this day and age of the NFL even if you win the Super Bowl  
wgenesis123 : 11/5/2015 8:25 am : link
every year is a rebuilding year. Oh we call it reload for the champs and the good teams but its all the very same thing. Try to keep more talent coming in than is going out.
At the moment, we have a number of positions where  
CT Charlie : 11/5/2015 8:26 am : link
our talent is below that of the NFL average. If we upgrade those to average, we'd be contenders. We need:

2 average NFL safeties
2 average NFL LBs
1 more dependable CB
1 TE who catches well and blocks just OK
1 more average OL
1 more average WR

This assumes JPP, Prince and Beatty are healthy. I fear that Cruz will never again be a playmaker, and he may never even be healthy.

Outside of Brady and Gronk, the Pats have a lot of average NFL players. But they are 1) very smart players, 2) very well coached, and 3) they have a LOT of them at every position. So injuries don't cripple them, and the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.
I really don't feel the Giants staff think it's in  
USAF NYG Fan : 11/5/2015 8:48 am : link
a rebuild but a change in their philosophy to get younger has caused a rebuild. Every year is a rebuild for every team but it appears you are talking about a major rebuild.

There are certain teams like the Colts that appeared to "Suck for Luck". There are other teams that appeared to have a lot of low round draft pics on the team but I think that's due to picking low for several years. I don't think they were re-building but the coaching sucked prior to. The 49ers come to mind. Then there are teams like the Seahawks that appear to have just had some great drafts.

Then we have a team like the Broncos where the GM is very active but it started with Peyton (aging vet). They know Peyton's window is closing fast so they are pushing all their chips in trying to get that 1 more piece that they need (Vernon Davis).

Personally I think the Giant's staff just adopted a different philosophy to get younger and favor leadership (thus drafting team captains). I believe Bill Belichick has been doing this all along (the younger part anyway). He tends to release players a year early instead of a year late. Then he uses FA to plug holes (i.e. Moss, Revis, etc) for that 1 or 2 missing players. For the Giants, adopting this new philosophy results in what looks like a rebuild because it takes awhile to get rid of older players (Tuck or Rolle) and replace them with younger versions (Odi or Collins). We are seeing the results of those growing pains.

So yea it may look like a rebuild but it's due to a change in philosophy to become and remain a younger team. Yes there is a difference.
RE: In this day and age of the NFL even if you win the Super Bowl  
BrettNYG10 : 11/5/2015 8:52 am : link
In comment 12602545 wgenesis123 said:
Quote:
every year is a rebuilding year. Oh we call it reload for the champs and the good teams but its all the very same thing. Try to keep more talent coming in than is going out.


This is a good point - the average turnover is like 20-25%, IIRC. I think a differentiating factor is the number of starters replaced (which I don't have numbers on). But the Giants had to replace a significant number of core players (the entire OL) since 2012. Retooling/rebuilding seem like semantic arguments, but I think what the OP was getting at was that the team was in dire need of significant investment due to injuries and core players getting old. After 2013, I thought the team needed a couple years to launch themselves into contending status. I thought they would get 8-10 wins this year, but the potential jump to 'contender' would happen next year. Of course, we have a good chance of making it this year and the team could go on another run.
RE: RE: RE: Seeing as we don't have a vote  
Big Blue '56 : 11/5/2015 9:17 am : link
In comment 12602539 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12602038 NYG27 said:


Quote:


In comment 12602033 jcn56 said:


Quote:


the question is moot. The real question is whether ownership will have the patience.



jcn56, I do think the fans patience is directly tied with ownership's. Large portion with how long Mara is willing to stick with this will be tied to fan reaction toward the end of this season.



If this were true, TC would be gone already. The Giants are lucky in the sense that they're sold out forever thanks to the PSLs, so they don't have to appease fans to keep the revenues flowing.

And I'm not saying that ownership's patience is necessarily a bad thing; they have access to data that we don't, and can better locate where the fault in the past few years of poor performance lies. They shouldn't be making decisions based on how angry fans are.


Another excellent point
RE: RE: In this day and age of the NFL even if you win the Super Bowl  
jcn56 : 11/5/2015 9:22 am : link
In comment 12602576 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
In comment 12602545 wgenesis123 said:


Quote:


every year is a rebuilding year. Oh we call it reload for the champs and the good teams but its all the very same thing. Try to keep more talent coming in than is going out.



This is a good point - the average turnover is like 20-25%, IIRC. I think a differentiating factor is the number of starters replaced (which I don't have numbers on). But the Giants had to replace a significant number of core players (the entire OL) since 2012. Retooling/rebuilding seem like semantic arguments, but I think what the OP was getting at was that the team was in dire need of significant investment due to injuries and core players getting old. After 2013, I thought the team needed a couple years to launch themselves into contending status. I thought they would get 8-10 wins this year, but the potential jump to 'contender' would happen next year. Of course, we have a good chance of making it this year and the team could go on another run.


I think the overall sentiment in the replies is correct - it shouldn't take this long to rebuild. The problem was the initial stage of the rebuild was not effective, prolonging the malaise. The upside is that they do appear to have gotten better at it, and that the team is on the upswing (if inconsistent and still oft injured).
Was it a strip-to-the-foundation, and fire the coaching staff rebuild?  
JonC : 11/5/2015 9:22 am : link
No. Clearly, not a full rebuild from scratch.

But, the 2013 Giants only won 7 games because they defeated four poor teams who also fielded their backup QBs. That was a 3-4 win team, and the "rebuild" or whatever you wish to call it was on. Very little of the 2013 Giants remains now. Rebuild on the fly, call it what you will.

Matt in SGS has hit the mark on this before, imo  
JonC : 11/5/2015 9:29 am : link
The 2011 Giants were an anomaly, a team that had enough talent and three impact players in Eli/Cruz/JPP that all got white hot down the stretch and into the playoffs. Given how teams benefit from a lack of injuries in this war of attrition, and how closely most playoff teams match up today, NYG caught lightning in a bottle for the crown.

But, given how quickly the 2012 Giants fell off the cliff late that season, it put a stamp on the fact the roster as compiled had hit the wall and needed to be turned over. They should've seen the signs, the 2011 Giants roster as a whole was beginning to decline.

RE: RE: RE: In this day and age of the NFL even if you win the Super Bowl  
BrettNYG10 : 11/5/2015 9:34 am : link
In comment 12602624 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12602576 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


In comment 12602545 wgenesis123 said:


Quote:


every year is a rebuilding year. Oh we call it reload for the champs and the good teams but its all the very same thing. Try to keep more talent coming in than is going out.



This is a good point - the average turnover is like 20-25%, IIRC. I think a differentiating factor is the number of starters replaced (which I don't have numbers on). But the Giants had to replace a significant number of core players (the entire OL) since 2012. Retooling/rebuilding seem like semantic arguments, but I think what the OP was getting at was that the team was in dire need of significant investment due to injuries and core players getting old. After 2013, I thought the team needed a couple years to launch themselves into contending status. I thought they would get 8-10 wins this year, but the potential jump to 'contender' would happen next year. Of course, we have a good chance of making it this year and the team could go on another run.



I think the overall sentiment in the replies is correct - it shouldn't take this long to rebuild. The problem was the initial stage of the rebuild was not effective, prolonging the malaise. The upside is that they do appear to have gotten better at it, and that the team is on the upswing (if inconsistent and still oft injured).


I agree - I think the biggest issue was that they took too long to cut the core. They should have started cutting core players after 2012. I've long admired the Giants long-term orientation, but thought they became short-term focused in 2013 (whether that's because the Super Bowl was at MetLife or overestimating the ability of certain players to make one last run, I don't know). I'm happy with the direction the franchise is going now.
RE: Matt in SGS has hit the mark on this before, imo  
BrettNYG10 : 11/5/2015 9:36 am : link
In comment 12602641 JonC said:
Quote:
The 2011 Giants were an anomaly, a team that had enough talent and three impact players in Eli/Cruz/JPP that all got white hot down the stretch and into the playoffs. Given how teams benefit from a lack of injuries in this war of attrition, and how closely most playoff teams match up today, NYG caught lightning in a bottle for the crown.

But, given how quickly the 2012 Giants fell off the cliff late that season, it put a stamp on the fact the roster as compiled had hit the wall and needed to be turned over. They should've seen the signs, the 2011 Giants roster as a whole was beginning to decline.


Well-said. I think people mistakenly thought the 2011 roster was built for sustainable success. I recall some very thoughtful posters beginning to downplay the significance of the OL (and need for investment) in today's NFL after that year.
Agreed  
JonC : 11/5/2015 9:41 am : link
In 2011, it seemed plain to many the 2010 Giants were actually more talented than the 2011 Giants. The difference in 2011 was the white hot trio at impact positions propelled them over the top. That's why the 2011 championship was such a shock, NYG won the war of attrition and got the favorable matchups, for the most part.
eg, no Saints in the dome  
JonC : 11/5/2015 9:42 am : link
NYG matched up much better on grass with the 49ers.
It's interesting to compare to the turnover around a BBI favorite  
jcn56 : 11/5/2015 9:43 am : link
the Baltimore Ravens. I don't think too many people would argue that Ozzie Newsome is a good GM, or that John Harbaugh is a good coach.

Ravens won the SB in 2012. Almost immediately thereafter, they're dealing with age (a couple of retirements of key players) and the salary cap. They have a franchise QB - Joe Flacco (I don't compare him to Eli, we're comparing situations). Flacco is in need of an extension.

Newsome basically sees the entire team go over the next couple of seasons. They miss the playoffs the first year, going 8-8. They make it to 10-6 the following, but then are mired in a 2-6 shitshow this year. Right now, all but a dozen (?) of the players who were on that 2012 SB championship are left.

IMO, consistent winning is part of the problem. Guys need to get paid. You draft lower, which almost inevitably leads to worse picks (forget the 1st round, look at the success rate of the 25th pick vs the 5th pick in RD2 over the span of a decade, then carry forward a round). Some success also masks problems - 'we've won before with X', almost implying that it can be repeated when that's probably not the case.

I don't think Newsome suddenly lost his marbles, and I don't think the same of Reese either.
jcn  
JonC : 11/5/2015 10:23 am : link
Agreed, and it's more evidence supporting why I've said the current CBA as wired makes rosters too top heavy. You can't build depth and keep all your homegrown talent when the QB's cap hit is north of $20M, WR $8M+, DE $15M, CB $7M, etc.

NFL needs a cap explosion like the one the NBA is set to experience next Summer, and wish they'd rework the franchise numbers per position to allow teams to balance payroll and keep their own.
Cap explosion will help?  
Giants2012 : 11/5/2015 10:34 am : link
I think it's by design to keep the cap lower and profits higher. A "cap explosion" would likely just send the QB number even higher, the DE/WR would follow and the teams would be faced with the same issues. Owners would rather just keep the cash and keep the lower as a higher cap would likely result in the same lopsided rosters.

IMO, the teams have to practice more and draft better.
you missed this part  
JonC : 11/5/2015 10:35 am : link
" ... wish they'd rework the franchise numbers per position to allow teams to balance payroll and keep their own."
We don't disagree teams need to draft better and practice more  
JonC : 11/5/2015 10:37 am : link
but the CBA currently sucks in terms of producing quality football teams.

Right now, the NFL brand is ugly football. And no the owners don't give a shite because revenues and fan interest on the whole are higher than ever, thus the reasons they pander to the LCD "fans", fantasy fans, etc.


There is a big difference between retooling and rebuilding.....  
Doomster : 11/5/2015 12:06 pm : link
This team is rebuilding, and it still needs a long way to go, when you have basically, 11 starters on your roster, that for the most part either wouldn't start or be wanted by another team.....

Would anybody trade for or pay in free agency((what the Giants did), for the likes of Beason or Schwartz?

"Running back by committee" is not working....not one legitimate starter amongst them....

Would any team project Kuhn, Selvie, Ayers, Unga, Merriweather or Bromley as starters?

Would anyone answer if Rodney asked, "Take our linebackers/TE's, please?"

Would any team want McBride, Wade, Hosley or Dahl for backups?

Anyone going to run after Randle, and offer him a a big contract at the end of the season?

You can replace players....but if they are not better, or in some cases worse than what you had, the rebuilding process just adds years to it....

Decisions have to be made about players that can't stay on the field....I'm sick of hearing, when "so and so gets back"....as someone stated, in the NFL, ALL GAMES are must games, because the season is so short....and players missing time on the field costs us games....
Giants need to solve the injury problems  
shabu : 11/5/2015 12:50 pm : link
Giants need to solve the injury problems until then the Giants will continue to suck.

This is not just rebuilding there is something wrong
Cut to the chase. It doesn't matter if fans are patient or not  
Torrag : 11/5/2015 1:42 pm : link
The building is sold out and will remain that way. They aren't the Jets/Devils/Islanders/Nets.
Rebuidling won't start  
BigBlueCane : 11/5/2015 3:22 pm : link
until they clear out the front office.
Doomster  
AP in Halfmoon : 11/5/2015 3:31 pm : link
You underrate the talent. First, no team has all pros at every position.

The defense would look a lot different with a pass rusher. The Giants are closer than they appeared in NO last Sunday.
We would not be talking about a rebuild if...  
EricJ : 11/5/2015 8:26 pm : link
more of our picks paid off. I have to be honest that I am not sure whether our issue is front office and the player selections, OR if it is our coaching staff and their ability to develop young players.
this team has been plugging in players from FA  
Jersey55 : 11/6/2015 10:29 am : link
for years now and what good has it done except to make those players richer and the team poorer. I think its time to take a hard look at the position coaches who IMO simply aren't getting the job done when it comes to developing these young players...
RE: this team has been plugging in players from FA  
Giants2012 : 11/7/2015 8:20 am : link
In comment 12604553 Jersey55 said:
Quote:
for years now and what good has it done except to make those players richer and the team poorer. I think its time to take a hard look at the position coaches who IMO simply aren't getting the job done when it comes to developing these young players...


again, the Giants have drafted like shit. A few drafts of one or two players doesn't fix the mess.
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