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Ughhh....Linval Joseph

Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/9/2015 9:23 am
Josina Anderson Verified account
& #8207;@JosinaAnderson

In other news.. #Vikings DT Linval Joseph is a beast. Some of the #Vikings coaches said to me after the game, “I told you so.”
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....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/9/2015 1:22 pm : link
I've been quite critical of Reese, but never advocated his (or Coughlin's) firing. The team bottomed out in 2013 and has been improving since. Why change management while we're progressing in the manner expected?
RE: Correct!  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/9/2015 2:00 pm : link
In comment 12610714 JonC said:
Quote:
One could argue NYG could find a couple/few million here or there to keep LJ, but they had several other bigger fish to fry on tap at the time, and they are built defensively around DE and CB talent.


Really. Then why draft Linjo, Austin, Hankins and Bromley. 3 2nd round picks and 1 3rd. That's. It true. He focuses on the DL. For the 100th time it's always about guaranteed $$. Joesph was give. About 10. He cousin have matched that easily and back loaded the deal. He didn't. It was t about other fish to fry. go. And if DE is so important It helps the. Immensely when the DTs collapse the pocket. He fucked up

Alos another factor IMO why cap $$$ were gone is His extensions to DD, Snee, and his two restructuring of Baas. Sound familiar? Like Beason. Extend an older player or 3 with injury histories Then he missed on guys like Sintim Austin Hosley Tracis Beckam, etc.






It's
RE: RE: Extend Beason, let LJ walk. BRILLIANT!  
LauderdaleMatty : 11/9/2015 2:05 pm : link
In comment 12610254 BMac said:
Quote:
In comment 12609867 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


Many of us were ridiculed for saying they should have made him a priority signing.



You too? This is false; the Giants were not going to match what the Vikings paid. It had ZERO to do with Beason.


They don't pay a lot. Another fallacy by the Reese is perfect crowd. He got a front loaded cap deal but his guanratee was 10 million. Shit they gave Beatty 18 up front. Dude was a mediocre LT. But a very good young DT is t worth half? The why draft then high at all. Let the. Sit for a year the. When they develop in a good starter pray you don't miss in the draft? Shit be use of Austin sucking they over paid Cullen Jenkins. Who would you rather have next Sunday? Jenkins body with a fork in it or Joseph. The menu Jenkkns got could have gone to Joseph. Sure he was more but now we are carring guy who should be even be on the roster
Is that..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/9/2015 2:06 pm : link
even fucking English?
LM  
JonC : 11/9/2015 2:11 pm : link
He focuses the $ on pass rushers and CBs. The only DT he ever spent on was signed because he was a pass rusher (Canty). He spends non-first round draft picks on DTs, he's on record saying premium DT prospects have a bust rate. You can dispute how effective his philosophy is, but those are facts.

We don't disagree with your second paragraph or with the regime's blindspots or mistakes, many of which educated fans felt were obvious even to them.
Matty, we had Eli, JPP, and Nicks in line for raises  
David in LA : 11/9/2015 2:16 pm : link
all 3 of those guys are/were above in the pecking order. You grossly overrate how much money Beatty got.
I thought he was worth the money  
KWALL2 : 11/9/2015 2:23 pm : link
and they were making a mistake by letting him go and then giving the cash to DRC.

DRC has been damn good though and much more physical than expected. But I'd take Joseph over him back than and right now too.
DRC  
Joey in VA : 11/9/2015 2:24 pm : link
Has won a game, nearly two with his play this year. Without him I'd hate to imagine that secondary. He is who we paid instead of Linval and right now it's the smart bet. A player like DRC is not easily replaced.
RE: I thought he was worth the money  
Big Blue '56 : 11/9/2015 2:25 pm : link
In comment 12610959 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
and they were making a mistake by letting him go and then giving the cash to DRC.

DRC has been damn good though and much more physical than expected. But I'd take Joseph over him back than and right now too.


I wouldn't..DRC is one of the best in the league, we need that more than we need LinJo, imo
DRC version 2015 is worth the coin  
JonC : 11/9/2015 2:26 pm : link
He spent the time in the gym putting some muscle on, and it seems the coaches have built his focus, confidence, and understanding of scheme to where he's performing consistently.

But when they signed DRC, I was not in favor of it.
RE: DRC version 2015 is worth the coin  
Big Blue '56 : 11/9/2015 2:28 pm : link
In comment 12610972 JonC said:
Quote:
He spent the time in the gym putting some muscle on, and it seems the coaches have built his focus, confidence, and understanding of scheme to where he's performing consistently.

But when they signed DRC, I was not in favor of it.


Which is fine, but unlike the jackasses on here, you can change your mind(for reasons you mentioned) and not stubbornly stick to the dismay over that signing at the time..
RE: DRC version 2015 is worth the coin  
Joey in VA : 11/9/2015 2:29 pm : link
In comment 12610972 JonC said:
Quote:
He spent the time in the gym putting some muscle on, and it seems the coaches have built his focus, confidence, and understanding of scheme to where he's performing consistently.

But when they signed DRC, I was not in favor of it.
Nor was I, I wanted Linval and Tuck instead. Tuck is now on IR again and DRC has become a top shelf defender this year.
Reese can never win around here  
David in LA : 11/9/2015 2:32 pm : link
if he paid Linval, people would be whining about not making a big enough splash for a big name like DRC. Reese hasn't been batting 1.000 here (who has?), but people act like all of his decisions are no brainers. We had to give Beatty a slight overpay, because we had no one else behind him at LT. The real fire-able offense would be to overpay the wrong guys and not have enough money left to pay your cornerstone guys (Eli and JPP before July 4).
The way it has panned out..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/9/2015 2:34 pm : link
I really shudder to think what this year would look like with Prince out and DRC not back there to keep the team in games. Meanwhile, Joseph would shore up the run D, but that wouldn't help a whole lot in getting pressure on the QB, which is the source of our issues.
RE: Reese can never win around here  
Default : 11/9/2015 2:35 pm : link
In comment 12610999 David in LA said:
No he can't, but the team could finish 5-11, and Coughlin would still be worshiped.
RE: Reese can never win around here  
Big Blue '56 : 11/9/2015 2:35 pm : link
In comment 12610999 David in LA said:
Quote:
if he paid Linval, people would be whining about not making a big enough splash for a big name like DRC. Reese hasn't been batting 1.000 here (who has?), but people act like all of his decisions are no brainers. We had to give Beatty a slight overpay, because we had no one else behind him at LT. The real fire-able offense would be to overpay the wrong guys and not have enough money left to pay your cornerstone guys (Eli and JPP before July 4).


What a difference landing Devin McCourty would have made, imo..
Joey, David, BB56, Fats  
JonC : 11/9/2015 2:39 pm : link
indeed, dudes.
Jon,  
Big Blue '56 : 11/9/2015 2:44 pm : link
what if anything are you hearing about Prince's recovery/improvement?
The LinJo decision wasn't a 'no brainer'...  
Torrag : 11/9/2015 2:45 pm : link
There were cap considerations and Hankins waiting in the wings. I do think we 'could have' found a way to keep him but it would have been at the cost of other personnel.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Letting  
BMac : 11/9/2015 2:46 pm : link
In comment 12610454 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 12610266 BMac said:


Quote:


In comment 12609913 The_Boss said:


Quote:


In comment 12609877 AcidTest said:


Quote:


Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.



People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown

(I can go on and on)



You really don't have a clue, do you?



Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.


I've never claimed to have all the answers. You, however, have amply demonstrated that you have none of the answers.
RE: Reb  
Reb8thVA : 11/9/2015 2:48 pm : link
In comment 12610685 JonC said:
Quote:
Brett is correct. NYG was in on DRC very early and had pre-determined CB was a wiser allocation of that amount of cap dollars over a DT. Reese had mentioned publically later on they were in on DRC very early, made DRC know he was a priority in their strategy.

I was also told there was hesitation over LJ based on personality fit, no clue how accurate it was. But their valuation was in the $4-5M range and their best guess it wouldn't be enough and they were willing to gamble.


Ok I'm wrong.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 11/9/2015 2:48 pm : link
The bigger issue is that Bromley hasn't developed the way the team has needed him to (yet).
Brett, you forget Bromley  
David in LA : 11/9/2015 2:51 pm : link
needs to supplant our stalwart, Markus Kuhn!
Reb  
JonC : 11/9/2015 2:51 pm : link
I'm wrong plenty!

BB56, not much other than the diagnosis was a four week healing timeline, nothing new of late.
RE: Reb  
BMac : 11/9/2015 2:52 pm : link
In comment 12610685 JonC said:
Quote:
Brett is correct. NYG was in on DRC very early and had pre-determined CB was a wiser allocation of that amount of cap dollars over a DT. Reese had mentioned publically later on they were in on DRC very early, made DRC know he was a priority in their strategy.

I was also told there was hesitation over LJ based on personality fit, no clue how accurate it was. But their valuation was in the $4-5M range and their best guess it wouldn't be enough and they were willing to gamble.


And let's not forget that Linval is now playing nose in a 3-4. That could be a huge contributing factor to his breaking out this year. Just perhaps he really wasn't ever going to be much more than average in a 4-3.
'56 McCourty would have been a nice addition  
David in LA : 11/9/2015 2:52 pm : link
what sucks is the number of safeties sitting on IR. There are at least 3 of them that have the physical skills to compliment Landon Collins and not have him out there high and dry playing deep.
Bromley has shown signs he's developing  
Torrag : 11/9/2015 2:53 pm : link
He played a solid game yesterday. He's already a much better player than Kuhn.
RE: RE: Hankins is the better player  
BlueLou : 11/9/2015 2:54 pm : link
In comment 12609998 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 12609866 The_Boss said:

Quote:


But Joseph is probably on a playoff team this year.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.

Not sure about Hankins being better....


Boom! Thank you Sy. I was going to say this same thing myself more than once at all the praise Hankins gets here. I don't know if it's because of PFF ratings or sack totals or individual and specific very good or even spectacular plays Hankins ocassionaly makes,but to my eyes it's surely questionable that Hankins is "better." He has technique issues with playing high, and his motor runs hot/cold because let's face it he's blatantly overweight. He does not have LJ's power and ability to push the interior of a pocket consistently, which LJ did even when double-teamed.

And I have the feeling that LJ was part of more short yardage and goal line stops in a 4 game playoff run than Hankins has been part of for his career to date.

To my mind, you want to see your core players play their best in crucial games and during the playoffs, and we got that in spades from Linval. Hankins has yet to be even part of that.
It's not like Joseph was ever a pass rusher  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/9/2015 2:58 pm : link
let's be careful not to fill in the blanks with imagination now the he hasn't been here for a few seasons.
RE: RE: RE: Extend Beason, let LJ walk. BRILLIANT!  
BMac : 11/9/2015 2:58 pm : link
In comment 12610900 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
In comment 12610254 BMac said:


Quote:


In comment 12609867 Victor in CT said:


Quote:


Many of us were ridiculed for saying they should have made him a priority signing.



You too? This is false; the Giants were not going to match what the Vikings paid. It had ZERO to do with Beason.



They don't pay a lot. Another fallacy by the Reese is perfect crowd. He got a front loaded cap deal but his guanratee was 10 million. Shit they gave Beatty 18 up front. Dude was a mediocre LT. But a very good young DT is t worth half? The why draft then high at all. Let the. Sit for a year the. When they develop in a good starter pray you don't miss in the draft? Shit be use of Austin sucking they over paid Cullen Jenkins. Who would you rather have next Sunday? Jenkins body with a fork in it or Joseph. The menu Jenkkns got could have gone to Joseph. Sure he was more but now we are carring guy who should be even be on the roster


Changing fact to fiction, apparently using Esperanto, doesn't advance your case.

You condemn people as regarding Reese as perfect when NO ONE has ever said that. In fact, I could as easily condemn you as being a Reese Hater because that's pretty much all you do on this board.
Torrag  
JonC : 11/9/2015 3:00 pm : link
It also appeared Bromley picked it up after Hankins went down. He gets pushed around at times, has to keep working in the gym, but definite signs yesterday.
in 2014 Hankins was absolutely the better player  
Greg from LI : 11/9/2015 3:02 pm : link
This year? Maybe not, but Hank was very, very good last year.
RE: in 2014 Hankins was absolutely the better player  
BlueLou : 11/9/2015 3:15 pm : link
In comment 12611103 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
This year? Maybe not, but Hank was very, very good last year.


Hank was not better last year than Joseph was during the 2011 playoff run. And I call bullspit that you watched enough Vikings' games last year to compare them konwledgeably.
RE: RE: in 2014 Hankins was absolutely the better player  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/9/2015 3:21 pm : link
In comment 12611160 BlueLou said:
Quote:
And I call bullspit that you watched enough Vikings' games last year to compare them konwledgeably.


You could apply that to this whole thread.

We should probably just delete it then.
Reese for some reason  
BigBlueCane : 11/9/2015 3:50 pm : link
tends to favor players farther away from the ball like WR's and DB's instead of those who are right next to it.

like Linement. Yes DRC is playing at a high level this year. Problem is, it's probably going to go waste because the DL is a dumpster fire.

There's only so many large men who can do what Hankins and Joesph can do. There are a lot harder to find then DB's are on average.
Okey dokey then  
Greg from LI : 11/9/2015 3:52 pm : link
I know that Hankins was damned good for the Giants, and I know that Joseph was considered to be a big disappointment for the Vikings last year, so I don't think it's a huge leap to conclude that Hankins was the superior player. But if you don't want to believe me, then there's the PFF ratings for you.
RE: Reese for some reason  
BrettNYG10 : 11/9/2015 3:56 pm : link
In comment 12611265 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
tends to favor players farther away from the ball like WR's and DB's instead of those who are right next to it.

like Linement. Yes DRC is playing at a high level this year. Problem is, it's probably going to go waste because the DL is a dumpster fire.

There's only so many large men who can do what Hankins and Joesph can do. There are a lot harder to find then DB's are on average.


I don't really agree with your first point. 7 of our last 9 picks within the first 100 picks were linemen. None in 2012, one in 2011 (Austin), two in 2010, one in 2009.

5 WR and 4 CB in that same time span, for reference. But the investment has been there - plus, they've signed Baas and Schwartz in that time period along the OL.
PFR - ( New Window )
RE: Reese for some reason  
David in LA : 11/9/2015 4:01 pm : link
In comment 12611265 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
tends to favor players farther away from the ball like WR's and DB's instead of those who are right next to it.

like Linement. Yes DRC is playing at a high level this year. Problem is, it's probably going to go waste because the DL is a dumpster fire.

There's only so many large men who can do what Hankins and Joesph can do. There are a lot harder to find then DB's are on average.


Nice post, except for the part where none of it is actually true.
this thread is gold.  
Gmen703 : 11/9/2015 4:11 pm : link
This reminds of the same 'outrage' for DTs like barry cofield or cornelius griffin.

Linval was a good player for us. The Vikes offered him a contract Reese didn't want to match, especially w/ Hankins waiting in the wing. Tough spot.

Imagine if we kept Linval and he played subpar like he did in 2014. The same folks clamoring for Linval now would be calling for Reese's head.
Guys do realize in 2014 Linval Joseph had surgery and was shot right?  
Patrick77 : 11/9/2015 4:38 pm : link
He missed a lot of training camp and OTAs. Yet still he played all 16 games with almost identical stats to his 2011 Giants season. He was disappointed in his play and is having a very good year in 2015.

It's not like he he completely absolutely sucked last year or missed games like Schwartz, Beason, etc...

I don't think Joseph was a massive loss but in hindsight he would have been "worth" overpaying for as what the Giants received with that money instead was poor players or injured players.


RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Letting  
The_Boss : 11/9/2015 5:16 pm : link
In comment 12611048 BMac said:
Quote:
In comment 12610454 The_Boss said:


Quote:


In comment 12610266 BMac said:


Quote:


In comment 12609913 The_Boss said:


Quote:


In comment 12609877 AcidTest said:


Quote:


Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.



People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown

(I can go on and on)



You really don't have a clue, do you?



Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.



I've never claimed to have all the answers. You, however, have amply demonstrated that you have none of the answers.


Wrong, again. If anything, I have amply proven to know this team/roster better than probably 95% of this forum, you obviously included. Carry on.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Letting  
Big Blue '56 : 11/9/2015 5:33 pm : link
In comment 12611461 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 12611048 BMac said:


Quote:


In comment 12610454 The_Boss said:


Quote:


In comment 12610266 BMac said:


Quote:


In comment 12609913 The_Boss said:


Quote:


In comment 12609877 AcidTest said:


Quote:


Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.



People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown

(I can go on and on)



You really don't have a clue, do you?



Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.



I've never claimed to have all the answers. You, however, have amply demonstrated that you have none of the answers.



Wrong, again. If anything, I have amply proven to know this team/roster better than probably 95% of this forum, you obviously included. Carry on.


Lol
here is a concept that fans dont seen to get about Free Agents  
blueblood : 11/9/2015 8:20 pm : link
they are FREE to choose where they go. Get over it.. players move on and sometimes its by CHOICE.. Linval got paid a hell of a lot more money than the Giants were going to give him. So they only way to keep him would have been to either match or OVER pay.. and guess what even with that the player can STILL choose to leave..

Its like no one on this site has ever LEFT a job for greener pastures even when their old employer wanted them to stay... You LEFT your old job for a NEW job.. Your boss didnt LET you go.. YOU LEFT.. It happens.. get over it..
RE: Extend Beason, let LJ walk. BRILLIANT!  
Giants2012 : 11/9/2015 8:23 pm : link
In comment 12609867 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
Many of us were ridiculed for saying they should have made him a priority signing.


Yup
if this isn't the surest sign of a complete fuckwit, I don't know what  
GMenLTS : 11/9/2015 8:28 pm : link
it is.

Quote:
If anything, I have amply proven to know this team/roster better than probably 95% of this forum, you obviously included.


Learn some humility and you might not have so many people jumping down your throat.
I was okay  
realgiants91 : 11/9/2015 8:40 pm : link
with him signing elsewhere because I thought he was an overrated player. Above average sure but not by much. Maybe he has gotten better now but what we really need is a pass rush and Joseph doesn't give that.
The semantics here are pretty funny.  
BlueLou : 11/10/2015 6:24 am : link
So Reese offering Linval, if he seriously offered anything, about 60% of his market value vis a vis the Vikes' offer was not "letting him go"?


LOL, he let him go, no matter how you word it. And this year at least LJ looks like he was well worth the dinero. Give it a couple of more years, and then we can all judge the move with hindsight.

As said by others above, plenty of BBIers called letting LJ walk a bad move. Too early to be certain but right now looks like we were right.
Ridiculous  
Giants2012 : 11/12/2015 6:33 pm : link
to lose Joseph.
Again  
David in LA : 11/12/2015 7:05 pm : link
it's very easy to look back at not bringing LJ back and say Reese fucked up. It's also easier to brush aside how many cornerstone pieces were in line to get raises.
RE: The semantics here are pretty funny.  
BMac : 11/12/2015 8:37 pm : link
In comment 12611980 BlueLou said:
Quote:
So Reese offering Linval, if he seriously offered anything, about 60% of his market value vis a vis the Vikes' offer was not "letting him go"?


LOL, he let him go, no matter how you word it. And this year at least LJ looks like he was well worth the dinero. Give it a couple of more years, and then we can all judge the move with hindsight.

As said by others above, plenty of BBIers called letting LJ walk a bad move. Too early to be certain but right now looks like we were right.


Only if we were/are running a 3/4. How can you be so dense as not to see that?
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