Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
I don't watch the Vikings so I don't know how good he is now, but a couple of years ago he wasn't worth the huge deal. And, if I'm not mistaken, he wasn't living up to the huge deal prior to this season.
DRC is probably the defensive MVP - so this seems like a lot of misguided hand-wringing. Can you imagine a banged up Prince paired with a draft pick or a mid-tier FA, with the pass rush we have?
It isn't like Joseph was going to make the pass rush a lot better.
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
it drives me insane every week watching it....
you invest a 2nd rounder and develop a guy and then ARENT willing to retain him.... WTF!!!! but retain beason... sign scrub back up Linebackers for actual money...
think we "let" Martellus Bennett "walk" that fucking stupid to realize the deal he was looking for?
The mistake wasn't letting him walk, it was the 1 year contract, but that was a condition that Bennett asked for.
It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, especially in a sea of morons who don't understand the cap or player demands and think an infinite amount of $$ is available.
JT Thomas - hurt but was playing OK
Casillas - we've needed him thus far
Harris' crazy contract - Holy fuckballs is that serious?
Beatty's crazy contract - also necessary and a very fair deal for both sides
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical) - He's turned out to be a pretty good player
Newhouse - he is what he is, a capable back up, damn reese for not predicting the beatty injury
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
Going on and on doesn't mean you have any intelligent points.
to get a second contract from the giants? its been a while, i think.
Herzlich? Craig Dahl (jk), Do you mean strictly draft picks, if so maybe Kiwi.
Technically JPP. Terrell Thomas also re-signed after his rookie contract, but that was ruined by injuries. And Aaron Ross also signed a "second contract" with the Giants, though that was after leaving initially.
it was not signing him long term sooner. He was a good player for us early on. But, that is how the cap works. You can't keep everybody.
Agree John..The question is, was he offered a long term contract before he hit FA and rejected it as Smith did the year before his injury? I don't recall whether we did or not..Usually, unless injury prone, the Giants will really try to keep their own imo..Not sure what went on with Cofield though
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
Going on and on doesn't mean you have any intelligent points.
Funny, I've yet to see you make any meaningful contribution in any thread. Don't question my intelligence on this roster or the mediocre at best job this GM has done. The only thing he's successfully done is allow the talent level to deteriorate to the point where 2 separate entities ranked us in the bottom tier league wide this past summer.
cheap and cost-controlled, these are the decisions and tactics required working under a salary cap.
I understand the cap manuevering aspect Jon, but I believe(d) that they way the game is played now $$ are better spent up front to get pressure on the QB and to stop the run. Nobody would run on Hank/LJ, and LJ can get up field too. And it would have protected the putrid LB core
about Joseph. Lobbied hard here about him bieng a top priority signing to pair with Hankins. Those two would have solved our run problems for years Many here, who may not admit it now, had all kinds of reason why we should not. The Beason resigning and the failure to resign LJ were the front offices biggest FA blunders in the past few years. Now see are paying the price.
cheap and cost-controlled, these are the decisions and tactics required working under a salary cap.
I understand the cap manuevering aspect Jon, but I believe(d) that they way the game is played now $$ are better spent up front to get pressure on the QB and to stop the run. Nobody would run on Hank/LJ, and LJ can get up field too. And it would have protected the putrid LB core
I was told at the time NYG wasn't terribly interested in retaining LJ, they reportedly valued him at $4M per and he got much more via UFA. I don't waste time wringing my hands over it.
isn't a guy who first developed after he left the Giants. He was already very productive. But Reese apparently thought that as a run stuffing DT Joseph could be easily replaced, like Cofield. But it isn't so easy to find those guys, and having two makes your DL so much more effective. They shut down the run, and make the pass rush much more effective. Limited pass rushers like Selvie and Ayers would benefit from having two DTs who tie up blockers.
I originally thought Joseph had to be let go for DRC, but a good GM would have found a way to sign both. Or drafted better players so we wouldn't have to choose.
As far as Beatty was concerned, Reese passed on Cordy Glenn for David Wilson, even though Glenn was the highest rated player on their board. That drove up Beatty's price.
that's a given. Many fans, including myself, were clamoring to keep him at the time too. We had cheaper replacements with Hankins and Jenkins, but think of what a line of LJo and Hankins would have been like! Sometimes I think our front office is very short-sighted!
Reese does plenty wrong. Unfortunately, BBI is his official fan club.
How the fuck do we have fans typing posts in game threads saying that the GM must go?
why are multiple threads created each week pretty much blaming Reese for everything under the sun (outside of the threads that blame TC for everything?
We have several troll accounts here whose only goal is to bash the GM (Ginny Poo being a main one).
This is far from a fan club - in fact, most of Reese's support comes not from people being his fans, but rather arguing against a lot of morons who don't make valid points about him.
we need another big FA period, The Oline feels solid now with the impending return of Beatty, Re sign Prince, sign another Safety, a everydown MLB and a stud DLineman. spend the money Jerry!
1. He was awful last year. Fans would've complained the entire season about how signing him for that contract was the biggest FA mistake of Reese's tenure.
2. It's not the total or even average value of the deal that mattered. The Vikes gave him a large roster bonus ($2.4M) in 2014 which essentially frontloaded the deal. It would've been hard for the Giants to match that structure without creating even worse depth problems.
cheap and cost-controlled, these are the decisions and tactics required working under a salary cap.
I understand the cap manuevering aspect Jon, but I believe(d) that they way the game is played now $$ are better spent up front to get pressure on the QB and to stop the run. Nobody would run on Hank/LJ, and LJ can get up field too. And it would have protected the putrid LB core
I was told at the time NYG wasn't terribly interested in retaining LJ, they reportedly valued him at $4M per and he got much more via UFA. I don't waste time wringing my hands over it.
All that proves is that they made a bad evaluation of his talent and contributions. Stapleton also cited his play for the Vikings last year to justify the decision by the Giants not to resign him. But he had already produced for us, and would have also been playing next to Hankins.
and chose to spend big money at a higher priority, and harder position to fill in CB. Not sure what people want. Hindsight is awesome though, especially when our DLine has been decimated with injuries.
But Joseph is probably on a playoff team this year.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
Not sure about Hankins being better....
If you subscribe to PFF's grading (and I do for OL and DL only), Hankins was their 6th best DT last season. LJ, who I saw routinely get pushed back at the point of attack, was 65th I believe. Now, maybe he was hurt- I don't know. But I do know what I saw from him on a few occasions and PFF's grade reflected it. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen much of Minnesota this year so maybe in 2015 LJ has been better. I do know that Hankins hasn't looked as good as last year. Perhaps JPP's absence has a lot to do with that.
Not entirely. They place a higher premium (thus, cap space) on other positions : QB, DE, WR, CB and apparently the capology dictated more for LJ wasn't feasible, you can't pay everyone.
But Joseph is probably on a playoff team this year.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
Not sure about Hankins being better....
If you subscribe to PFF's grading (and I do for OL and DL only), Hankins was their 6th best DT last season. LJ, who I saw routinely get pushed back at the point of attack, was 65th I believe. Now, maybe he was hurt- I don't know. But I do know what I saw from him on a few occasions and PFF's grade reflected it. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen much of Minnesota this year so maybe in 2015 LJ has been better. I do know that Hankins hasn't looked as good as last year. Perhaps JPP's absence has a lot to do with that.
That's my point. Hankins has no help. Joseph would have made him more productive, and vice versa as well. I guess having two extremely effective run stuffing DTs was just too boring for the Giants. It's also probably why they drafted Austin instead of Paea.
team has gotten hammered by losing high round draft picks to injuries that have ended their careers or permanently damaged the player.
One of the few high round picks in recent years who was healthy and productive at a NEED position was allowed to walk.
Now we will be looking to draft another DT.
This is just dumb.
Would you rather have Hankins and Joseph at DT or Hankins and Kuhn?
That's a ridiculous question. We didn't let LJ go so that we could sign Kuhn. The money saved on LJ was used to sign DRC and/or fill (much needed) depth at other positions.
Pretty much the same thing in my opinion -- unfortunately you can't pay everyone -- and the Giants have been very good at drafting Defensive Tackles -- with the exception of Marvin Austin -- and Marvin Austin was a known high risk / high reward pick -- phenomenal talent with very little brain
Be happy - before Reese - the Giants used to draft their Marvin Austins in the first round -- Reece had shifted high risk / high reward drafting to the second and third round --
and chose to spend big money at a higher priority, and harder position to fill in CB. Not sure what people want. Hindsight is awesome though, especially when our DLine has been decimated with injuries.
not hindsight. I said it at the time, and so did many others here.
think we "let" Martellus Bennett "walk" that fucking stupid to realize the deal he was looking for?
The mistake wasn't letting him walk, it was the 1 year contract, but that was a condition that Bennett asked for.
It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, especially in a sea of morons who don't understand the cap or player demands and think an infinite amount of $$ is available.
We spent a shitload of money in that period on players other than DRC...Beason and Schwartz just two examples.
I would have rather have kept Joseph than signed those two.
Beason's 2014 cap #: $3.15M
Schwartz's 2014 cap #: $2.33M
Joseph's 2014 cap #: $6.6M
That's a difference over $1M, so you need to still cut another player to fit Joseph. And that assumes the replacements are making $0, but in reality they're making at least the minimum.
Exactly, he was a solid player who got paid like a big star
there are some fans on BBI who think the Giants can do no wrong.
Letting Joseph go was a mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
There was money there for both Joseph and DRC. 2014 FA Scorecard - ( New Window )
it was a mistake to let him go, it was a mistake to let James Jones go, it was a mistake to re-sign Beason, it was a mistake to do xyz, starting a billionth thread about it when as fans all we can do is say yeah that sucks I don't see the point.
I'm honestly just glad the James Jones threads stopped.
Now that Linval has a great game, and it was great, I see no need to restate what's been stated hundreds of times in the past year and a half.
that it seemed like the Giants never had any intention of re-signing him. They drafted Hankins as his replacement before his final season. They assumed Joseph was going to ask for too much. As it turned out, as Eric says, we could have afforded him.
Whether you thought Linval was great or just good, we have been losing the battle of attrition. Its shown in our record. We can't afford to keep letting healthy, young clear-cut starters walk for nothing.
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
Good point. The Bromley pick could have been used on one of our other many needs.
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
I for one am ecstatic Beason could not stay on the field
he was extremely ineffective. I cannot think of a memorable Beason moment
seemed so stupid to me at the time that I figured there must be some behind the scenes reason.
The defense that Hankins panned out rings hollow to me. The could absolutely play together. You build units of strength, and we would have had a top 5 DT combo.
Because it's another example that calls into question some of the personnel decisions being made by this club in recent years.
that's a different thread IMO, it's all a chain reaction, poor or injured draft picks force the team to use free agent $$$ to compensate at that position which robs potential free agent $$ from that position and then the team is sort of forced to backfill with other draft picks.
failures across the board here that have been well chronicled. And two super bowl wins buy a lot of goodwill to fail multiple times.
simply mentioning the Giants should have re-signed Linval shouldn't be met with any resistance at this point.
you don't cavalierly let your good, young players go when their rookie deals expire.
Hankins isn't the point. The point is that instead of drafting Austin, Hankins, Bromley, we could have used one or two of those picks on another need if we had Joseph here. You can't be in the position of having to draft the same positions year after year because you are letting people walk.
Some of you Randle haters need to think about that.
But a lot of Giants fans supported the Beason signing.
No way you could have DRC, Joseph and Beason. DRC was a must, so it was really Beason/Schwartz vs Joseph. Obviously, they made the wrong choice but hindsight is 20/20 , as they say.
you don't cavalierly let your good, young players go when their rookie deals expire.
Hankins isn't the point. The point is that instead of drafting Austin, Hankins, Bromley, we could have used one or two of those picks on another need if we had Joseph here. You can't be in the position of having to draft the same positions year after year because you are letting people walk.
Some of you Randle haters need to think about that.
Randle is nowhere near the quality of WR that LJ was at DT. Comparing the 2 is frankly wrong. You are right regarding the draft picks though. DT is just another position we need to sink premium resources into next spring.
Seems like a long-term trend for the Giants to let young DTs walk
After a win it sounds like we lost. We bringing up old stuff again. Losing LJ was a loss but you cant keep everyone. There was a more of a need for a lineman(Schwartz)and LB(Beason) more than another interior lineman at that point and they weren't going big money for that position. Look it didn't work because of injuries for both. And LJ was quite pedestrian for the Viking until yesterday and Giant fans take more notice especially after the Hankins injury. Look Reese has had a combination of bad drafting and catastrophic injuries which if they don't make the playoffs may cost him his job. But right now this team with all of its warts are in first and I would rather focus on what they do have and how they can make it work. There will be plenty of time to rake over the coals in the off season.
RE: Seems like a long-term trend for the Giants to let young DTs walk
1. He was awful last year. Fans would've complained the entire season about how signing him for that contract was the biggest FA mistake of Reese's tenure.
2. It's not the total or even average value of the deal that mattered. The Vikes gave him a large roster bonus ($2.4M) in 2014 which essentially frontloaded the deal. It would've been hard for the Giants to match that structure without creating even worse depth problems.
Sir, please, don't cite facts. It spoils all the fun.
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
A solid run stuffer who brings little pressure isn't a big money player in my mind.
At the time, there was a bit of implied growth and development of Joseph. I liked him, and was hopeful that a JPP/Joseph/Hankins line would prove elite.
think we "let" Martellus Bennett "walk" that fucking stupid to realize the deal he was looking for?
The mistake wasn't letting him walk, it was the 1 year contract, but that was a condition that Bennett asked for.
It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, especially in a sea of morons who don't understand the cap or player demands and think an infinite amount of $$ is available.
Just listen to the crap some are saying. Apparently, they've heard this so many times that they accept it as true, regardless of how false it is. And the laundry lists of "bad deals (including Bennett) just boggle the mind because they're such uninformed choices.
it's not hindsight when a bunch of us questioned the move at the time.
On a message board where people post opinions about literally every roster transaction, there's going to be people who "got it right" because even a blind squirrel can sometimes a find nut. People throw crap against the wall and say I told you so when they happen to get it right or even a little right, and then either stay silent or laugh it off when they get it badly wrong. Not saying you didn't have a valid opinion Eric, but BBI exists for many posters as a way to comment on every single decision and transaction even if they literally have no clue. Ranting and raving is enjoyable for some people and the bonus is when you can rsnt and rave and then pat themselves on the back for guessing right
Should be gone, for a number of reasons. But letting Joseph go is not one of them. Many wanted him to stay (as did I) and were disappointed when he went to the Vikes. Now he's playing well so a hindsight argument adds to the frustration that-Reece should have known.
Look, Pat Kirwin has talked about these signings as a FA tactic. Clubs with cap room review the rosters of teams up against the cap for 2nd level players who are solid but not stars. They can offer a blow out contract knowing that teams like the Giants have to prioritize. Reece has a dollar figure in the budget that he wants to resign LV. Is a solid if not consistent run stopping DL who is not going to become Haloti Ngata worth blowing up your plans.
This is just frustration and hindsight...we need to move on
We all wanted to keep him. In Hindsight it is easy to say the Giants should have paid him that amount since so many of the FAs signed were flops or injured. for example - Joseph is easily worth Beason and Schwartz at this point, but there is no way to know that 2 years ago.
Hindisight is 20/20 as said above. In hindsight keeping Joseph and overpaying him, not signing Beason and a handful of other garbage/injured players likely leaves the Giants with a better roster.
Think about it - for years the fans lamented the loss of two guys the loudest - Matt Stover and Olindo Mare. Two guys who weren't ever anything other than preseason competition, but people bitched and moaned like we'd royally fucked up.
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
At this point in the year, if you think Harris' contract is crazy, then no, you don't have a clue.
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
At this point in the year, if you think Harris' contract is crazy, then no, you don't have a clue.
Here's why I disagree: You should be able to find players like him in the mid rounds of any given draft. A team, with little to no shot at the playoffs, should not be doling out a 5 year deal for $17.5 million ($7.1 gauranteed) to guys like Dwayne Harris. You think any of the 31 other teams would do? Again, it speaks volumes to the drafting of this franchise in the mid rounds as well as the fiscal irresponsibility. Nothing personal against Harris. I like the player.
there are some fans on BBI who think the Giants can do no wrong.
Letting Joseph go was a mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
There was money there for both Joseph and DRC. 2014 FA Scorecard - ( New Window )
THank you Eric.
Yes. This. Reese doesn't have an easy job but if he had kept Joseph knowing he and Hankins are solid the Bromley lick could have been another DB or LB or OL. Joseph's guanratee was not out of line for a good starter. Since the DL Is a disaster why give Reese a pass.
It's an issue. And w huge cap $$ available next year it should give us pause. The Beason new deal is just icing on the cake
Now as off injured as Prince is he could have re done his deal a year ago. We have ONE good starter CB next year in DRC. If I'm an agent for a even a good CB im homdkng Reese up for big bucks.
This is a worry about Reese. His whole philosophy is to find top tier players at DL and CB and WR and even when they pan out he hasn't been able to get new heals done with all going into theirnFA years without an extension.
His three best picks on D were Linjo(gone) Prince and JPP. The next two could be gone next year. Talk depth issues. Reese has made some nice moves but letting Joseph go has had a huge ripple effect
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
At this point in the year, if you think Harris' contract is crazy, then no, you don't have a clue.
Here's why I disagree: You should be able to find players like him in the mid rounds of any given draft. A team, with little to no shot at the playoffs, should not be doling out a 5 year deal for $17.5 million ($7.1 gauranteed) to guys like Dwayne Harris. You think any of the 31 other teams would do? Again, it speaks volumes to the drafting of this franchise in the mid rounds as well as the fiscal irresponsibility. Nothing personal against Harris. I like the player.
And, for what it's worth, Dallas has adequately replaced him with Lucky Whitehead, who was an UDFA, on kick returns and by using Beasley on most punt returns. He may not get a lot of burn at WR, but only because the Dallas WR unit is deeper than the NYG.
but anyone who saw LJ's play last year wouldn't be saying this. He's acknowledged this himself. Hankins outplayed him in 2014 without question. He was also outplayed by his teammate Sharif Floyd which is another example of where LJ has the benefit this year. Look at his talent vs. what Hankins had played with. Floyd's missed games this year but even his backup Tom Johnson would be the 2nd best tackle on this team. The Vikings front 7 is light years better than what the Giants have put on the field for most of the year. Eric Kendricks, their rookie MLB would lead our team in sacks (and since we're playing revisionist history I would've taken him over Collins). Anthony Barr is a beast. They not only have a competent safety to defend the pass, he's pro bowl caliber. Not to mention their DE's and a well respected defensive minded HC. And still Hankins is one of the best run stuffing DT's in the league.
Let's also not forget that LJ's contract would've overlapped JPP's. None of us had the foresight in thinking he would blow off part of his hand but I think it's fair to say that he was in the plans. If we can all have the hindsight ability in saying we should've kept LJ then we should have the foresight in knowing what can of restrictions that would've put on the cap of having both of them under contract not to mention Eli. Imagine what kind of scrap heap, 1 year contract, journeymen players would be on the team.
That seems like some revisionist thinking to me. Perhaps I am incorrect, but I believe the Vikings signed Joseph way before the Giants signed DRC. Seems like DRC was an after thought.
That seems like some revisionist thinking to me. Perhaps I am incorrect, but I believe the Vikings signed Joseph way before the Giants signed DRC. Seems like DRC was an after thought.
DRC signed on March 17th, Linval on March 11th. The bidding war for DRC went on quite a bit longer, so I'm sure the Giants knew they were in the running and needed the cap dollars for DRC.
and chose to spend big money at a higher priority, and harder position to fill in CB. Not sure what people want. Hindsight is awesome though, especially when our DLine has been decimated with injuries.
not hindsight. I said it at the time, and so did many others here.
My hindsight comment is that this has popped up again a day after we lose our best lineman. If we didn't have a Hankins injury and JPP didn't blow his hand off, our line doesn't look nearly as bad as it does now. That's what I'm talking about.
I was indifferent about LJ. I get why people were mad we didn't retain him and I understand why we used those funds elsewhere.
I've said this before. You don't lose 5 early round picks to career ending injuries and not have a ripple effect.
To me his biggest negatives were not foreseeing the rapid decline of the OL when Snee, O'Hara and Diehl fell off a cliff and the management of the LB position. For some, they just can't get past that and crucify the guy.
Brett is correct. NYG was in on DRC very early and had pre-determined CB was a wiser allocation of that amount of cap dollars over a DT. Reese had mentioned publically later on they were in on DRC very early, made DRC know he was a priority in their strategy.
I was also told there was hesitation over LJ based on personality fit, no clue how accurate it was. But their valuation was in the $4-5M range and their best guess it wouldn't be enough and they were willing to gamble.
I've said this before. You don't lose 5 early round picks to career ending injuries and not have a ripple effect.
To me his biggest negatives were not foreseeing the rapid decline of the OL when Snee, O'Hara and Diehl fell off a cliff and the management of the LB position. For some, they just can't get past that and crucify the guy.
Fair enough. I respect your opinion. I feel completely different. I will say this: I called into Francesa yesterday regarding Reese. I presented my case about the roster decay citing how both NFL.com (Bucky Brooks) and PFF slotted us in the bottom third league wide in talent. I mentioned how we were lucky to be 4-4 (he agreed) and said we'd likely finish with 6/7 wins (which he also concurred). And, while I know Mike's not the be all/end all to this debate, he essentially said if it were him, he'd blow up the entire operation as it is evident something is wrong.
One could argue NYG could find a couple/few million here or there to keep LJ, but they had several other bigger fish to fry on tap at the time, and they are built defensively around DE and CB talent.
Sucks to "lucky to be 4-4". One win was legitimately stolen from us with that Cowboys game because of atrocious officiating the league already apologized for.
They were not lucky to be 4-4. They were decidedly unlucky.
to say you'd blow up the entire operation without having the fix.
Let's say you clean house. This means Reese goes, TC goes, the coordinators probably go. But the players stay. And those that leave just mean we will start the cycle over again of restocking, now to the wants of a different coach and GM.
I'm not saying that is the wrong path - I'm just saying it isn't an easy or quick fix and you will waste eli's last prime years.
I also think people woefully underestimate exactly what impact injuries have, which is largely out of the control of the GM.
Sucks to "lucky to be 4-4". One win was legitimately stolen from us with that Cowboys game because of atrocious officiating the league already apologized for.
They were not lucky to be 4-4. They were decidedly unlucky.
7-4 would be pretty impressive since they've only played nine games.
isn't in the cards with Eli on the team, unless you are talking about the defense specifically. But even then, how much can the D really change if you aren't completely overhauling the FO/coach?
It sucks that we've been in a fun since the latest SB, but we've been fortunate in the grand scheme of things and shouldn't "blow it up" because things aren't going our way. If we had half as many injuries I'd actually be somewhat confident that we can get to 9 wins and win the division.
I've been quite critical of Reese, but never advocated his (or Coughlin's) firing. The team bottomed out in 2013 and has been improving since. Why change management while we're progressing in the manner expected?
One could argue NYG could find a couple/few million here or there to keep LJ, but they had several other bigger fish to fry on tap at the time, and they are built defensively around DE and CB talent.
Really. Then why draft Linjo, Austin, Hankins and Bromley. 3 2nd round picks and 1 3rd. That's. It true. He focuses on the DL. For the 100th time it's always about guaranteed $$. Joesph was give. About 10. He cousin have matched that easily and back loaded the deal. He didn't. It was t about other fish to fry. go. And if DE is so important It helps the. Immensely when the DTs collapse the pocket. He fucked up
Alos another factor IMO why cap $$$ were gone is His extensions to DD, Snee, and his two restructuring of Baas. Sound familiar? Like Beason. Extend an older player or 3 with injury histories Then he missed on guys like Sintim Austin Hosley Tracis Beckam, etc.
Many of us were ridiculed for saying they should have made him a priority signing.
You too? This is false; the Giants were not going to match what the Vikings paid. It had ZERO to do with Beason.
They don't pay a lot. Another fallacy by the Reese is perfect crowd. He got a front loaded cap deal but his guanratee was 10 million. Shit they gave Beatty 18 up front. Dude was a mediocre LT. But a very good young DT is t worth half? The why draft then high at all. Let the. Sit for a year the. When they develop in a good starter pray you don't miss in the draft? Shit be use of Austin sucking they over paid Cullen Jenkins. Who would you rather have next Sunday? Jenkins body with a fork in it or Joseph. The menu Jenkkns got could have gone to Joseph. Sure he was more but now we are carring guy who should be even be on the roster
He focuses the $ on pass rushers and CBs. The only DT he ever spent on was signed because he was a pass rusher (Canty). He spends non-first round draft picks on DTs, he's on record saying premium DT prospects have a bust rate. You can dispute how effective his philosophy is, but those are facts.
We don't disagree with your second paragraph or with the regime's blindspots or mistakes, many of which educated fans felt were obvious even to them.
Matty, we had Eli, JPP, and Nicks in line for raises
Has won a game, nearly two with his play this year. Without him I'd hate to imagine that secondary. He is who we paid instead of Linval and right now it's the smart bet. A player like DRC is not easily replaced.
He spent the time in the gym putting some muscle on, and it seems the coaches have built his focus, confidence, and understanding of scheme to where he's performing consistently.
But when they signed DRC, I was not in favor of it.
He spent the time in the gym putting some muscle on, and it seems the coaches have built his focus, confidence, and understanding of scheme to where he's performing consistently.
But when they signed DRC, I was not in favor of it.
Which is fine, but unlike the jackasses on here, you can change your mind(for reasons you mentioned) and not stubbornly stick to the dismay over that signing at the time..
He spent the time in the gym putting some muscle on, and it seems the coaches have built his focus, confidence, and understanding of scheme to where he's performing consistently.
But when they signed DRC, I was not in favor of it.
Nor was I, I wanted Linval and Tuck instead. Tuck is now on IR again and DRC has become a top shelf defender this year.
if he paid Linval, people would be whining about not making a big enough splash for a big name like DRC. Reese hasn't been batting 1.000 here (who has?), but people act like all of his decisions are no brainers. We had to give Beatty a slight overpay, because we had no one else behind him at LT. The real fire-able offense would be to overpay the wrong guys and not have enough money left to pay your cornerstone guys (Eli and JPP before July 4).
I really shudder to think what this year would look like with Prince out and DRC not back there to keep the team in games. Meanwhile, Joseph would shore up the run D, but that wouldn't help a whole lot in getting pressure on the QB, which is the source of our issues.
if he paid Linval, people would be whining about not making a big enough splash for a big name like DRC. Reese hasn't been batting 1.000 here (who has?), but people act like all of his decisions are no brainers. We had to give Beatty a slight overpay, because we had no one else behind him at LT. The real fire-able offense would be to overpay the wrong guys and not have enough money left to pay your cornerstone guys (Eli and JPP before July 4).
What a difference landing Devin McCourty would have made, imo..
There were cap considerations and Hankins waiting in the wings. I do think we 'could have' found a way to keep him but it would have been at the cost of other personnel.
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
I've never claimed to have all the answers. You, however, have amply demonstrated that you have none of the answers.
Brett is correct. NYG was in on DRC very early and had pre-determined CB was a wiser allocation of that amount of cap dollars over a DT. Reese had mentioned publically later on they were in on DRC very early, made DRC know he was a priority in their strategy.
I was also told there was hesitation over LJ based on personality fit, no clue how accurate it was. But their valuation was in the $4-5M range and their best guess it wouldn't be enough and they were willing to gamble.
Brett is correct. NYG was in on DRC very early and had pre-determined CB was a wiser allocation of that amount of cap dollars over a DT. Reese had mentioned publically later on they were in on DRC very early, made DRC know he was a priority in their strategy.
I was also told there was hesitation over LJ based on personality fit, no clue how accurate it was. But their valuation was in the $4-5M range and their best guess it wouldn't be enough and they were willing to gamble.
And let's not forget that Linval is now playing nose in a 3-4. That could be a huge contributing factor to his breaking out this year. Just perhaps he really wasn't ever going to be much more than average in a 4-3.
what sucks is the number of safeties sitting on IR. There are at least 3 of them that have the physical skills to compliment Landon Collins and not have him out there high and dry playing deep.
But Joseph is probably on a playoff team this year.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
Not sure about Hankins being better....
Boom! Thank you Sy. I was going to say this same thing myself more than once at all the praise Hankins gets here. I don't know if it's because of PFF ratings or sack totals or individual and specific very good or even spectacular plays Hankins ocassionaly makes,but to my eyes it's surely questionable that Hankins is "better." He has technique issues with playing high, and his motor runs hot/cold because let's face it he's blatantly overweight. He does not have LJ's power and ability to push the interior of a pocket consistently, which LJ did even when double-teamed.
And I have the feeling that LJ was part of more short yardage and goal line stops in a 4 game playoff run than Hankins has been part of for his career to date.
To my mind, you want to see your core players play their best in crucial games and during the playoffs, and we got that in spades from Linval. Hankins has yet to be even part of that.
Many of us were ridiculed for saying they should have made him a priority signing.
You too? This is false; the Giants were not going to match what the Vikings paid. It had ZERO to do with Beason.
They don't pay a lot. Another fallacy by the Reese is perfect crowd. He got a front loaded cap deal but his guanratee was 10 million. Shit they gave Beatty 18 up front. Dude was a mediocre LT. But a very good young DT is t worth half? The why draft then high at all. Let the. Sit for a year the. When they develop in a good starter pray you don't miss in the draft? Shit be use of Austin sucking they over paid Cullen Jenkins. Who would you rather have next Sunday? Jenkins body with a fork in it or Joseph. The menu Jenkkns got could have gone to Joseph. Sure he was more but now we are carring guy who should be even be on the roster
Changing fact to fiction, apparently using Esperanto, doesn't advance your case.
You condemn people as regarding Reese as perfect when NO ONE has ever said that. In fact, I could as easily condemn you as being a Reese Hater because that's pretty much all you do on this board.
It also appeared Bromley picked it up after Hankins went down. He gets pushed around at times, has to keep working in the gym, but definite signs yesterday.
This year? Maybe not, but Hank was very, very good last year.
Hank was not better last year than Joseph was during the 2011 playoff run. And I call bullspit that you watched enough Vikings' games last year to compare them konwledgeably.
RE: RE: in 2014 Hankins was absolutely the better player
I know that Hankins was damned good for the Giants, and I know that Joseph was considered to be a big disappointment for the Vikings last year, so I don't think it's a huge leap to conclude that Hankins was the superior player. But if you don't want to believe me, then there's the PFF ratings for you.
tends to favor players farther away from the ball like WR's and DB's instead of those who are right next to it.
like Linement. Yes DRC is playing at a high level this year. Problem is, it's probably going to go waste because the DL is a dumpster fire.
There's only so many large men who can do what Hankins and Joesph can do. There are a lot harder to find then DB's are on average.
I don't really agree with your first point. 7 of our last 9 picks within the first 100 picks were linemen. None in 2012, one in 2011 (Austin), two in 2010, one in 2009.
5 WR and 4 CB in that same time span, for reference. But the investment has been there - plus, they've signed Baas and Schwartz in that time period along the OL. PFR - ( New Window )
He missed a lot of training camp and OTAs. Yet still he played all 16 games with almost identical stats to his 2011 Giants season. He was disappointed in his play and is having a very good year in 2015.
It's not like he he completely absolutely sucked last year or missed games like Schwartz, Beason, etc...
I don't think Joseph was a massive loss but in hindsight he would have been "worth" overpaying for as what the Giants received with that money instead was poor players or injured players.
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
I've never claimed to have all the answers. You, however, have amply demonstrated that you have none of the answers.
Wrong, again. If anything, I have amply proven to know this team/roster better than probably 95% of this forum, you obviously included. Carry on.
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
I've never claimed to have all the answers. You, however, have amply demonstrated that you have none of the answers.
Wrong, again. If anything, I have amply proven to know this team/roster better than probably 95% of this forum, you obviously included. Carry on.
Lol
here is a concept that fans dont seen to get about Free Agents
they are FREE to choose where they go. Get over it.. players move on and sometimes its by CHOICE.. Linval got paid a hell of a lot more money than the Giants were going to give him. So they only way to keep him would have been to either match or OVER pay.. and guess what even with that the player can STILL choose to leave..
Its like no one on this site has ever LEFT a job for greener pastures even when their old employer wanted them to stay... You LEFT your old job for a NEW job.. Your boss didnt LET you go.. YOU LEFT.. It happens.. get over it..
with him signing elsewhere because I thought he was an overrated player. Above average sure but not by much. Maybe he has gotten better now but what we really need is a pass rush and Joseph doesn't give that.
So Reese offering Linval, if he seriously offered anything, about 60% of his market value vis a vis the Vikes' offer was not "letting him go"?
LOL, he let him go, no matter how you word it. And this year at least LJ looks like he was well worth the dinero. Give it a couple of more years, and then we can all judge the move with hindsight.
As said by others above, plenty of BBIers called letting LJ walk a bad move. Too early to be certain but right now looks like we were right.
it's very easy to look back at not bringing LJ back and say Reese fucked up. It's also easier to brush aside how many cornerstone pieces were in line to get raises.
So Reese offering Linval, if he seriously offered anything, about 60% of his market value vis a vis the Vikes' offer was not "letting him go"?
LOL, he let him go, no matter how you word it. And this year at least LJ looks like he was well worth the dinero. Give it a couple of more years, and then we can all judge the move with hindsight.
As said by others above, plenty of BBIers called letting LJ walk a bad move. Too early to be certain but right now looks like we were right.
Only if we were/are running a 3/4. How can you be so dense as not to see that?
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
LJ's $$ went to DRC.
it's been almost two years, time to move on.
DRC is probably the defensive MVP - so this seems like a lot of misguided hand-wringing. Can you imagine a banged up Prince paired with a draft pick or a mid-tier FA, with the pass rush we have?
It isn't like Joseph was going to make the pass rush a lot better.
Herzlich? Craig Dahl (jk), Do you mean strictly draft picks, if so maybe Kiwi.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
you invest a 2nd rounder and develop a guy and then ARENT willing to retain him.... WTF!!!! but retain beason... sign scrub back up Linebackers for actual money...
very frustrating.
The mistake wasn't letting him walk, it was the 1 year contract, but that was a condition that Bennett asked for.
It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, especially in a sea of morons who don't understand the cap or player demands and think an infinite amount of $$ is available.
Casillas - we've needed him thus far
Harris' crazy contract - Holy fuckballs is that serious?
Beatty's crazy contract - also necessary and a very fair deal for both sides
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical) - He's turned out to be a pretty good player
Newhouse - he is what he is, a capable back up, damn reese for not predicting the beatty injury
good times
Quote:
to get a second contract from the giants? its been a while, i think.
Herzlich? Craig Dahl (jk), Do you mean strictly draft picks, if so maybe Kiwi.
yes, draft picks,i think you are right about it being kiwi,thanks.
Swell. That's got what exactly to do with whether or not he merited the deal he got two years ago?
Quote:
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
Going on and on doesn't mean you have any intelligent points.
Joseph and Hankins would have been an excellent interior.
Quote:
to get a second contract from the giants? its been a while, i think.
Herzlich? Craig Dahl (jk), Do you mean strictly draft picks, if so maybe Kiwi.
Technically JPP. Terrell Thomas also re-signed after his rookie contract, but that was ruined by injuries. And Aaron Ross also signed a "second contract" with the Giants, though that was after leaving initially.
Agree John..The question is, was he offered a long term contract before he hit FA and rejected it as Smith did the year before his injury? I don't recall whether we did or not..Usually, unless injury prone, the Giants will really try to keep their own imo..Not sure what went on with Cofield though
Some fans called out Linval Joseph w/ Vikes yesterday + slamming Giants for not resigning.
If he had his 2014 here, NYG would've been ripped
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 6m6 minutes ago
Don't play retroactive game with Linval Joseph with Johnathan Hankins getting hurt yesterday. Hankins > Joseph last year + not even close
Quote:
In comment 12609877 AcidTest said:
Quote:
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
Going on and on doesn't mean you have any intelligent points.
Funny, I've yet to see you make any meaningful contribution in any thread. Don't question my intelligence on this roster or the mediocre at best job this GM has done. The only thing he's successfully done is allow the talent level to deteriorate to the point where 2 separate entities ranked us in the bottom tier league wide this past summer.
Again, I don't watch the Vikings - he's a nose tackle now? Maybe he's better suited for the 3-4 NT than 4-3 DT?
Letting Joseph go was a mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
There was money there for both Joseph and DRC.
2014 FA Scorecard - ( New Window )
I understand the cap manuevering aspect Jon, but I believe(d) that they way the game is played now $$ are better spent up front to get pressure on the QB and to stop the run. Nobody would run on Hank/LJ, and LJ can get up field too. And it would have protected the putrid LB core
Some fans called out Linval Joseph w/ Vikes yesterday + slamming Giants for not resigning.
If he had his 2014 here, NYG would've been ripped
Art Stapleton @art_stapleton 6m6 minutes ago
Don't play retroactive game with Linval Joseph with Johnathan Hankins getting hurt yesterday. Hankins > Joseph last year + not even close
If I remember right, Hankins graded out as the #6 DT (Aaron Donald was #1) per PFF and LJ was #65. So, yes, what Art says is correct.
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cheap and cost-controlled, these are the decisions and tactics required working under a salary cap.
I understand the cap manuevering aspect Jon, but I believe(d) that they way the game is played now $$ are better spent up front to get pressure on the QB and to stop the run. Nobody would run on Hank/LJ, and LJ can get up field too. And it would have protected the putrid LB core
I was told at the time NYG wasn't terribly interested in retaining LJ, they reportedly valued him at $4M per and he got much more via UFA. I don't waste time wringing my hands over it.
Letting Joseph go was a mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
There was money there for both Joseph and DRC. 2014 FA Scorecard - ( New Window )
Reese does plenty wrong. Unfortunately, BBI is his official fan club.
I originally thought Joseph had to be let go for DRC, but a good GM would have found a way to sign both. Or drafted better players so we wouldn't have to choose.
As far as Beatty was concerned, Reese passed on Cordy Glenn for David Wilson, even though Glenn was the highest rated player on their board. That drove up Beatty's price.
How the fuck do we have fans typing posts in game threads saying that the GM must go?
why are multiple threads created each week pretty much blaming Reese for everything under the sun (outside of the threads that blame TC for everything?
We have several troll accounts here whose only goal is to bash the GM (Ginny Poo being a main one).
This is far from a fan club - in fact, most of Reese's support comes not from people being his fans, but rather arguing against a lot of morons who don't make valid points about him.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
Not sure about Hankins being better....
the defense isn't broke
2. It's not the total or even average value of the deal that mattered. The Vikes gave him a large roster bonus ($2.4M) in 2014 which essentially frontloaded the deal. It would've been hard for the Giants to match that structure without creating even worse depth problems.
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In comment 12609914 JonC said:
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cheap and cost-controlled, these are the decisions and tactics required working under a salary cap.
I understand the cap manuevering aspect Jon, but I believe(d) that they way the game is played now $$ are better spent up front to get pressure on the QB and to stop the run. Nobody would run on Hank/LJ, and LJ can get up field too. And it would have protected the putrid LB core
I was told at the time NYG wasn't terribly interested in retaining LJ, they reportedly valued him at $4M per and he got much more via UFA. I don't waste time wringing my hands over it.
All that proves is that they made a bad evaluation of his talent and contributions. Stapleton also cited his play for the Vikings last year to justify the decision by the Giants not to resign him. But he had already produced for us, and would have also been playing next to Hankins.
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But Joseph is probably on a playoff team this year.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
Not sure about Hankins being better....
If you subscribe to PFF's grading (and I do for OL and DL only), Hankins was their 6th best DT last season. LJ, who I saw routinely get pushed back at the point of attack, was 65th I believe. Now, maybe he was hurt- I don't know. But I do know what I saw from him on a few occasions and PFF's grade reflected it. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen much of Minnesota this year so maybe in 2015 LJ has been better. I do know that Hankins hasn't looked as good as last year. Perhaps JPP's absence has a lot to do with that.
One of the few high round picks in recent years who was healthy and productive at a NEED position was allowed to walk.
Now we will be looking to draft another DT.
This is just dumb.
Would you rather have Hankins and Joseph at DT or Hankins and Kuhn?
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In comment 12609866 The_Boss said:
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But Joseph is probably on a playoff team this year.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
Not sure about Hankins being better....
If you subscribe to PFF's grading (and I do for OL and DL only), Hankins was their 6th best DT last season. LJ, who I saw routinely get pushed back at the point of attack, was 65th I believe. Now, maybe he was hurt- I don't know. But I do know what I saw from him on a few occasions and PFF's grade reflected it. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen much of Minnesota this year so maybe in 2015 LJ has been better. I do know that Hankins hasn't looked as good as last year. Perhaps JPP's absence has a lot to do with that.
That's my point. Hankins has no help. Joseph would have made him more productive, and vice versa as well. I guess having two extremely effective run stuffing DTs was just too boring for the Giants. It's also probably why they drafted Austin instead of Paea.
One of the few high round picks in recent years who was healthy and productive at a NEED position was allowed to walk.
Now we will be looking to draft another DT.
This is just dumb.
Would you rather have Hankins and Joseph at DT or Hankins and Kuhn?
That's a ridiculous question. We didn't let LJ go so that we could sign Kuhn. The money saved on LJ was used to sign DRC and/or fill (much needed) depth at other positions.
We need more speed players like Moore and Whitlock on the D Line
Be happy - before Reese - the Giants used to draft their Marvin Austins in the first round -- Reece had shifted high risk / high reward drafting to the second and third round --
I would have rather have kept Joseph than signed those two.
not hindsight. I said it at the time, and so did many others here.
What a dumb move that was
That's the kind of mistake Belicheck never makes
I would have rather have kept Joseph than signed those two.
Thank you Eric! a MLB who can't stay on the field, and a RG who started 9 games the prior 4 years,
No, he was a good solid defensive player on a team that lacks good solid defensive players.
He and Hankins would have formed a nice run-stopping duo inside.
We specialize in revisionist history.
Did you know Jake Ballard is in the Theoretical Hall of Fame?
Letting Joseph go was a mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
There was money there for both Joseph and DRC. 2014 FA Scorecard - ( New Window )
THank you Eric.
The mistake wasn't letting him walk, it was the 1 year contract, but that was a condition that Bennett asked for.
It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, especially in a sea of morons who don't understand the cap or player demands and think an infinite amount of $$ is available.
homer
I would have rather have kept Joseph than signed those two.
Beason's 2014 cap #: $3.15M
Schwartz's 2014 cap #: $2.33M
Joseph's 2014 cap #: $6.6M
That's a difference over $1M, so you need to still cut another player to fit Joseph. And that assumes the replacements are making $0, but in reality they're making at least the minimum.
Letting Joseph go was a mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
There was money there for both Joseph and DRC. 2014 FA Scorecard - ( New Window )
it was a mistake to let him go, it was a mistake to let James Jones go, it was a mistake to re-sign Beason, it was a mistake to do xyz, starting a billionth thread about it when as fans all we can do is say yeah that sucks I don't see the point.
I'm honestly just glad the James Jones threads stopped.
Now that Linval has a great game, and it was great, I see no need to restate what's been stated hundreds of times in the past year and a half.
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
Good point. The Bromley pick could have been used on one of our other many needs.
I swear some of you like being angry.
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
I for one am ecstatic Beason could not stay on the field
he was extremely ineffective. I cannot think of a memorable Beason moment
The defense that Hankins panned out rings hollow to me. The could absolutely play together. You build units of strength, and we would have had a top 5 DT combo.
that's a different thread IMO, it's all a chain reaction, poor or injured draft picks force the team to use free agent $$$ to compensate at that position which robs potential free agent $$ from that position and then the team is sort of forced to backfill with other draft picks.
failures across the board here that have been well chronicled. And two super bowl wins buy a lot of goodwill to fail multiple times.
simply mentioning the Giants should have re-signed Linval shouldn't be met with any resistance at this point.
Hankins isn't the point. The point is that instead of drafting Austin, Hankins, Bromley, we could have used one or two of those picks on another need if we had Joseph here. You can't be in the position of having to draft the same positions year after year because you are letting people walk.
Some of you Randle haters need to think about that.
No way you could have DRC, Joseph and Beason. DRC was a must, so it was really Beason/Schwartz vs Joseph. Obviously, they made the wrong choice but hindsight is 20/20 , as they say.
Hankins isn't the point. The point is that instead of drafting Austin, Hankins, Bromley, we could have used one or two of those picks on another need if we had Joseph here. You can't be in the position of having to draft the same positions year after year because you are letting people walk.
Some of you Randle haters need to think about that.
Randle is nowhere near the quality of WR that LJ was at DT. Comparing the 2 is frankly wrong. You are right regarding the draft picks though. DT is just another position we need to sink premium resources into next spring.
Good point. The strategy predates Reese.
You too? This is false; the Giants were not going to match what the Vikings paid. It had ZERO to do with Beason.
2. It's not the total or even average value of the deal that mattered. The Vikes gave him a large roster bonus ($2.4M) in 2014 which essentially frontloaded the deal. It would've been hard for the Giants to match that structure without creating even worse depth problems.
Sir, please, don't cite facts. It spoils all the fun.
I thought so. I though much higher of him than you did (obviously).
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Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
At the time, there was a bit of implied growth and development of Joseph. I liked him, and was hopeful that a JPP/Joseph/Hankins line would prove elite.
No, but they will certainly say they think he is.
The mistake wasn't letting him walk, it was the 1 year contract, but that was a condition that Bennett asked for.
It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, especially in a sea of morons who don't understand the cap or player demands and think an infinite amount of $$ is available.
Just listen to the crap some are saying. Apparently, they've heard this so many times that they accept it as true, regardless of how false it is. And the laundry lists of "bad deals (including Bennett) just boggle the mind because they're such uninformed choices.
That shit is pathetic.
Letting Joseph go was a mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
There was money there for both Joseph and DRC. 2014 FA Scorecard - ( New Window )
You're seriously going to compare dollars for a top corner vs. a run-stuffing DL?
On a message board where people post opinions about literally every roster transaction, there's going to be people who "got it right" because even a blind squirrel can sometimes a find nut. People throw crap against the wall and say I told you so when they happen to get it right or even a little right, and then either stay silent or laugh it off when they get it badly wrong. Not saying you didn't have a valid opinion Eric, but BBI exists for many posters as a way to comment on every single decision and transaction even if they literally have no clue. Ranting and raving is enjoyable for some people and the bonus is when you can rsnt and rave and then pat themselves on the back for guessing right
Look, Pat Kirwin has talked about these signings as a FA tactic. Clubs with cap room review the rosters of teams up against the cap for 2nd level players who are solid but not stars. They can offer a blow out contract knowing that teams like the Giants have to prioritize. Reece has a dollar figure in the budget that he wants to resign LV. Is a solid if not consistent run stopping DL who is not going to become Haloti Ngata worth blowing up your plans.
This is just frustration and hindsight...we need to move on
NO.
Hindisight is 20/20 as said above. In hindsight keeping Joseph and overpaying him, not signing Beason and a handful of other garbage/injured players likely leaves the Giants with a better roster.
Passing game usually slows down across the NFL as the season goes on, making stopping the run that much more important.
I shudder to see #78 out there more often...
Think about it - for years the fans lamented the loss of two guys the loudest - Matt Stover and Olindo Mare. Two guys who weren't ever anything other than preseason competition, but people bitched and moaned like we'd royally fucked up.
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In comment 12609877 AcidTest said:
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Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
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In comment 12609913 The_Boss said:
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In comment 12609877 AcidTest said:
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Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
At this point in the year, if you think Harris' contract is crazy, then no, you don't have a clue.
Interesting that losing 5 first round picks to career ending injuries isn't factored in here, but letting Bennett "walk" is.
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In comment 12610266 BMac said:
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In comment 12609913 The_Boss said:
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In comment 12609877 AcidTest said:
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Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
At this point in the year, if you think Harris' contract is crazy, then no, you don't have a clue.
Here's why I disagree: You should be able to find players like him in the mid rounds of any given draft. A team, with little to no shot at the playoffs, should not be doling out a 5 year deal for $17.5 million ($7.1 gauranteed) to guys like Dwayne Harris. You think any of the 31 other teams would do? Again, it speaks volumes to the drafting of this franchise in the mid rounds as well as the fiscal irresponsibility. Nothing personal against Harris. I like the player.
Yup
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there are some fans on BBI who think the Giants can do no wrong.
Letting Joseph go was a mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
There was money there for both Joseph and DRC. 2014 FA Scorecard - ( New Window )
THank you Eric.
Yes. This. Reese doesn't have an easy job but if he had kept Joseph knowing he and Hankins are solid the Bromley lick could have been another DB or LB or OL. Joseph's guanratee was not out of line for a good starter. Since the DL Is a disaster why give Reese a pass.
It's an issue. And w huge cap $$ available next year it should give us pause. The Beason new deal is just icing on the cake
Now as off injured as Prince is he could have re done his deal a year ago. We have ONE good starter CB next year in DRC. If I'm an agent for a even a good CB im homdkng Reese up for big bucks.
This is a worry about Reese. His whole philosophy is to find top tier players at DL and CB and WR and even when they pan out he hasn't been able to get new heals done with all going into theirnFA years without an extension.
His three best picks on D were Linjo(gone) Prince and JPP. The next two could be gone next year. Talk depth issues. Reese has made some nice moves but letting Joseph go has had a huge ripple effect
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In comment 12610454 The_Boss said:
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In comment 12610266 BMac said:
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In comment 12609913 The_Boss said:
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In comment 12609877 AcidTest said:
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Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
At this point in the year, if you think Harris' contract is crazy, then no, you don't have a clue.
Here's why I disagree: You should be able to find players like him in the mid rounds of any given draft. A team, with little to no shot at the playoffs, should not be doling out a 5 year deal for $17.5 million ($7.1 gauranteed) to guys like Dwayne Harris. You think any of the 31 other teams would do? Again, it speaks volumes to the drafting of this franchise in the mid rounds as well as the fiscal irresponsibility. Nothing personal against Harris. I like the player.
And, for what it's worth, Dallas has adequately replaced him with Lucky Whitehead, who was an UDFA, on kick returns and by using Beasley on most punt returns. He may not get a lot of burn at WR, but only because the Dallas WR unit is deeper than the NYG.
Let's also not forget that LJ's contract would've overlapped JPP's. None of us had the foresight in thinking he would blow off part of his hand but I think it's fair to say that he was in the plans. If we can all have the hindsight ability in saying we should've kept LJ then we should have the foresight in knowing what can of restrictions that would've put on the cap of having both of them under contract not to mention Eli. Imagine what kind of scrap heap, 1 year contract, journeymen players would be on the team.
That seems like some revisionist thinking to me. Perhaps I am incorrect, but I believe the Vikings signed Joseph way before the Giants signed DRC. Seems like DRC was an after thought.
Outside of one decent return this year, Whitehead has done jack shit and Beasley fumbled away any chance they had to beat us.
If that's considered adequate yet you are bitching about some of the moves above, you have a double standard at play.
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.
That seems like some revisionist thinking to me. Perhaps I am incorrect, but I believe the Vikings signed Joseph way before the Giants signed DRC. Seems like DRC was an after thought.
DRC signed on March 17th, Linval on March 11th. The bidding war for DRC went on quite a bit longer, so I'm sure the Giants knew they were in the running and needed the cap dollars for DRC.
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and chose to spend big money at a higher priority, and harder position to fill in CB. Not sure what people want. Hindsight is awesome though, especially when our DLine has been decimated with injuries.
not hindsight. I said it at the time, and so did many others here.
My hindsight comment is that this has popped up again a day after we lose our best lineman. If we didn't have a Hankins injury and JPP didn't blow his hand off, our line doesn't look nearly as bad as it does now. That's what I'm talking about.
I was indifferent about LJ. I get why people were mad we didn't retain him and I understand why we used those funds elsewhere.
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Dallas has adequately replaced him with Lucky Whitehead, who was an UDFA, on kick returns and by using Beasley on most punt returns
Outside of one decent return this year, Whitehead has done jack shit and Beasley fumbled away any chance they had to beat us.
If that's considered adequate yet you are bitching about some of the moves above, you have a double standard at play.
Let's simplify this:
Yes or No answer.
Has Reese done a good job in your opinion?
I've said this before. You don't lose 5 early round picks to career ending injuries and not have a ripple effect.
To me his biggest negatives were not foreseeing the rapid decline of the OL when Snee, O'Hara and Diehl fell off a cliff and the management of the LB position. For some, they just can't get past that and crucify the guy.
I was also told there was hesitation over LJ based on personality fit, no clue how accurate it was. But their valuation was in the $4-5M range and their best guess it wouldn't be enough and they were willing to gamble.
I've said this before. You don't lose 5 early round picks to career ending injuries and not have a ripple effect.
To me his biggest negatives were not foreseeing the rapid decline of the OL when Snee, O'Hara and Diehl fell off a cliff and the management of the LB position. For some, they just can't get past that and crucify the guy.
Fair enough. I respect your opinion. I feel completely different. I will say this: I called into Francesa yesterday regarding Reese. I presented my case about the roster decay citing how both NFL.com (Bucky Brooks) and PFF slotted us in the bottom third league wide in talent. I mentioned how we were lucky to be 4-4 (he agreed) and said we'd likely finish with 6/7 wins (which he also concurred). And, while I know Mike's not the be all/end all to this debate, he essentially said if it were him, he'd blow up the entire operation as it is evident something is wrong.
They were not lucky to be 4-4. They were decidedly unlucky.
Let's say you clean house. This means Reese goes, TC goes, the coordinators probably go. But the players stay. And those that leave just mean we will start the cycle over again of restocking, now to the wants of a different coach and GM.
I'm not saying that is the wrong path - I'm just saying it isn't an easy or quick fix and you will waste eli's last prime years.
I also think people woefully underestimate exactly what impact injuries have, which is largely out of the control of the GM.
They were not lucky to be 4-4. They were decidedly unlucky.
7-4 would be pretty impressive since they've only played nine games.
It sucks that we've been in a fun since the latest SB, but we've been fortunate in the grand scheme of things and shouldn't "blow it up" because things aren't going our way. If we had half as many injuries I'd actually be somewhat confident that we can get to 9 wins and win the division.
Really. Then why draft Linjo, Austin, Hankins and Bromley. 3 2nd round picks and 1 3rd. That's. It true. He focuses on the DL. For the 100th time it's always about guaranteed $$. Joesph was give. About 10. He cousin have matched that easily and back loaded the deal. He didn't. It was t about other fish to fry. go. And if DE is so important It helps the. Immensely when the DTs collapse the pocket. He fucked up
Alos another factor IMO why cap $$$ were gone is His extensions to DD, Snee, and his two restructuring of Baas. Sound familiar? Like Beason. Extend an older player or 3 with injury histories Then he missed on guys like Sintim Austin Hosley Tracis Beckam, etc.
It's
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Many of us were ridiculed for saying they should have made him a priority signing.
You too? This is false; the Giants were not going to match what the Vikings paid. It had ZERO to do with Beason.
They don't pay a lot. Another fallacy by the Reese is perfect crowd. He got a front loaded cap deal but his guanratee was 10 million. Shit they gave Beatty 18 up front. Dude was a mediocre LT. But a very good young DT is t worth half? The why draft then high at all. Let the. Sit for a year the. When they develop in a good starter pray you don't miss in the draft? Shit be use of Austin sucking they over paid Cullen Jenkins. Who would you rather have next Sunday? Jenkins body with a fork in it or Joseph. The menu Jenkkns got could have gone to Joseph. Sure he was more but now we are carring guy who should be even be on the roster
We don't disagree with your second paragraph or with the regime's blindspots or mistakes, many of which educated fans felt were obvious even to them.
DRC has been damn good though and much more physical than expected. But I'd take Joseph over him back than and right now too.
DRC has been damn good though and much more physical than expected. But I'd take Joseph over him back than and right now too.
I wouldn't..DRC is one of the best in the league, we need that more than we need LinJo, imo
But when they signed DRC, I was not in favor of it.
But when they signed DRC, I was not in favor of it.
Which is fine, but unlike the jackasses on here, you can change your mind(for reasons you mentioned) and not stubbornly stick to the dismay over that signing at the time..
But when they signed DRC, I was not in favor of it.
No he can't, but the team could finish 5-11, and Coughlin would still be worshiped.
What a difference landing Devin McCourty would have made, imo..
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In comment 12609913 The_Boss said:
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In comment 12609877 AcidTest said:
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Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
I've never claimed to have all the answers. You, however, have amply demonstrated that you have none of the answers.
I was also told there was hesitation over LJ based on personality fit, no clue how accurate it was. But their valuation was in the $4-5M range and their best guess it wouldn't be enough and they were willing to gamble.
Ok I'm wrong.
BB56, not much other than the diagnosis was a four week healing timeline, nothing new of late.
I was also told there was hesitation over LJ based on personality fit, no clue how accurate it was. But their valuation was in the $4-5M range and their best guess it wouldn't be enough and they were willing to gamble.
And let's not forget that Linval is now playing nose in a 3-4. That could be a huge contributing factor to his breaking out this year. Just perhaps he really wasn't ever going to be much more than average in a 4-3.
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But Joseph is probably on a playoff team this year.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
Not sure about Hankins being better....
Boom! Thank you Sy. I was going to say this same thing myself more than once at all the praise Hankins gets here. I don't know if it's because of PFF ratings or sack totals or individual and specific very good or even spectacular plays Hankins ocassionaly makes,but to my eyes it's surely questionable that Hankins is "better." He has technique issues with playing high, and his motor runs hot/cold because let's face it he's blatantly overweight. He does not have LJ's power and ability to push the interior of a pocket consistently, which LJ did even when double-teamed.
And I have the feeling that LJ was part of more short yardage and goal line stops in a 4 game playoff run than Hankins has been part of for his career to date.
To my mind, you want to see your core players play their best in crucial games and during the playoffs, and we got that in spades from Linval. Hankins has yet to be even part of that.
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In comment 12609867 Victor in CT said:
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Many of us were ridiculed for saying they should have made him a priority signing.
You too? This is false; the Giants were not going to match what the Vikings paid. It had ZERO to do with Beason.
They don't pay a lot. Another fallacy by the Reese is perfect crowd. He got a front loaded cap deal but his guanratee was 10 million. Shit they gave Beatty 18 up front. Dude was a mediocre LT. But a very good young DT is t worth half? The why draft then high at all. Let the. Sit for a year the. When they develop in a good starter pray you don't miss in the draft? Shit be use of Austin sucking they over paid Cullen Jenkins. Who would you rather have next Sunday? Jenkins body with a fork in it or Joseph. The menu Jenkkns got could have gone to Joseph. Sure he was more but now we are carring guy who should be even be on the roster
Changing fact to fiction, apparently using Esperanto, doesn't advance your case.
You condemn people as regarding Reese as perfect when NO ONE has ever said that. In fact, I could as easily condemn you as being a Reese Hater because that's pretty much all you do on this board.
Hank was not better last year than Joseph was during the 2011 playoff run. And I call bullspit that you watched enough Vikings' games last year to compare them konwledgeably.
You could apply that to this whole thread.
We should probably just delete it then.
like Linement. Yes DRC is playing at a high level this year. Problem is, it's probably going to go waste because the DL is a dumpster fire.
There's only so many large men who can do what Hankins and Joesph can do. There are a lot harder to find then DB's are on average.
like Linement. Yes DRC is playing at a high level this year. Problem is, it's probably going to go waste because the DL is a dumpster fire.
There's only so many large men who can do what Hankins and Joesph can do. There are a lot harder to find then DB's are on average.
I don't really agree with your first point. 7 of our last 9 picks within the first 100 picks were linemen. None in 2012, one in 2011 (Austin), two in 2010, one in 2009.
5 WR and 4 CB in that same time span, for reference. But the investment has been there - plus, they've signed Baas and Schwartz in that time period along the OL.
PFR - ( New Window )
like Linement. Yes DRC is playing at a high level this year. Problem is, it's probably going to go waste because the DL is a dumpster fire.
There's only so many large men who can do what Hankins and Joesph can do. There are a lot harder to find then DB's are on average.
Nice post, except for the part where none of it is actually true.
Linval was a good player for us. The Vikes offered him a contract Reese didn't want to match, especially w/ Hankins waiting in the wing. Tough spot.
Imagine if we kept Linval and he played subpar like he did in 2014. The same folks clamoring for Linval now would be calling for Reese's head.
It's not like he he completely absolutely sucked last year or missed games like Schwartz, Beason, etc...
I don't think Joseph was a massive loss but in hindsight he would have been "worth" overpaying for as what the Giants received with that money instead was poor players or injured players.
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In comment 12610266 BMac said:
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In comment 12609913 The_Boss said:
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In comment 12609877 AcidTest said:
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Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
I've never claimed to have all the answers. You, however, have amply demonstrated that you have none of the answers.
Wrong, again. If anything, I have amply proven to know this team/roster better than probably 95% of this forum, you obviously included. Carry on.
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In comment 12610454 The_Boss said:
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In comment 12610266 BMac said:
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In comment 12609913 The_Boss said:
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In comment 12609877 AcidTest said:
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Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
Excuse me? There's a reason why this roster is devoid of talent and looked upon by independent talent evaluators as bottom tiered. Poor drafts are part of it, but so are the contracts I mentioned above and their effects on subsequent decisions in the years that followed. But, apparently you have all the answers....here's what's going to happen: we're going to finish either 6-10 or 7-9 this year. That should slot us somewhere between 9-15 in the upcoming draft, which is a weak one. We also will have, depending on where you get your info, between $40-$50 million in cap space. We'll also be in the market for a new head coach. Unlike the throngs of folks here, I don't trust this GM one iota to make the right moves in any capacity. Don't be telling me my business again.
I've never claimed to have all the answers. You, however, have amply demonstrated that you have none of the answers.
Wrong, again. If anything, I have amply proven to know this team/roster better than probably 95% of this forum, you obviously included. Carry on.
Lol
Its like no one on this site has ever LEFT a job for greener pastures even when their old employer wanted them to stay... You LEFT your old job for a NEW job.. Your boss didnt LET you go.. YOU LEFT.. It happens.. get over it..
Yup
Learn some humility and you might not have so many people jumping down your throat.
LOL, he let him go, no matter how you word it. And this year at least LJ looks like he was well worth the dinero. Give it a couple of more years, and then we can all judge the move with hindsight.
As said by others above, plenty of BBIers called letting LJ walk a bad move. Too early to be certain but right now looks like we were right.
LOL, he let him go, no matter how you word it. And this year at least LJ looks like he was well worth the dinero. Give it a couple of more years, and then we can all judge the move with hindsight.
As said by others above, plenty of BBIers called letting LJ walk a bad move. Too early to be certain but right now looks like we were right.
Only if we were/are running a 3/4. How can you be so dense as not to see that?