and chose to spend big money at a higher priority, and harder position to fill in CB. Not sure what people want. Hindsight is awesome though, especially when our DLine has been decimated with injuries.
But Joseph is probably on a playoff team this year.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
Not sure about Hankins being better....
If you subscribe to PFF's grading (and I do for OL and DL only), Hankins was their 6th best DT last season. LJ, who I saw routinely get pushed back at the point of attack, was 65th I believe. Now, maybe he was hurt- I don't know. But I do know what I saw from him on a few occasions and PFF's grade reflected it. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen much of Minnesota this year so maybe in 2015 LJ has been better. I do know that Hankins hasn't looked as good as last year. Perhaps JPP's absence has a lot to do with that.
Not entirely. They place a higher premium (thus, cap space) on other positions : QB, DE, WR, CB and apparently the capology dictated more for LJ wasn't feasible, you can't pay everyone.
But Joseph is probably on a playoff team this year.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
Not sure about Hankins being better....
If you subscribe to PFF's grading (and I do for OL and DL only), Hankins was their 6th best DT last season. LJ, who I saw routinely get pushed back at the point of attack, was 65th I believe. Now, maybe he was hurt- I don't know. But I do know what I saw from him on a few occasions and PFF's grade reflected it. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen much of Minnesota this year so maybe in 2015 LJ has been better. I do know that Hankins hasn't looked as good as last year. Perhaps JPP's absence has a lot to do with that.
That's my point. Hankins has no help. Joseph would have made him more productive, and vice versa as well. I guess having two extremely effective run stuffing DTs was just too boring for the Giants. It's also probably why they drafted Austin instead of Paea.
team has gotten hammered by losing high round draft picks to injuries that have ended their careers or permanently damaged the player.
One of the few high round picks in recent years who was healthy and productive at a NEED position was allowed to walk.
Now we will be looking to draft another DT.
This is just dumb.
Would you rather have Hankins and Joseph at DT or Hankins and Kuhn?
That's a ridiculous question. We didn't let LJ go so that we could sign Kuhn. The money saved on LJ was used to sign DRC and/or fill (much needed) depth at other positions.
Pretty much the same thing in my opinion -- unfortunately you can't pay everyone -- and the Giants have been very good at drafting Defensive Tackles -- with the exception of Marvin Austin -- and Marvin Austin was a known high risk / high reward pick -- phenomenal talent with very little brain
Be happy - before Reese - the Giants used to draft their Marvin Austins in the first round -- Reece had shifted high risk / high reward drafting to the second and third round --
and chose to spend big money at a higher priority, and harder position to fill in CB. Not sure what people want. Hindsight is awesome though, especially when our DLine has been decimated with injuries.
not hindsight. I said it at the time, and so did many others here.
think we "let" Martellus Bennett "walk" that fucking stupid to realize the deal he was looking for?
The mistake wasn't letting him walk, it was the 1 year contract, but that was a condition that Bennett asked for.
It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, especially in a sea of morons who don't understand the cap or player demands and think an infinite amount of $$ is available.
We spent a shitload of money in that period on players other than DRC...Beason and Schwartz just two examples.
I would have rather have kept Joseph than signed those two.
Beason's 2014 cap #: $3.15M
Schwartz's 2014 cap #: $2.33M
Joseph's 2014 cap #: $6.6M
That's a difference over $1M, so you need to still cut another player to fit Joseph. And that assumes the replacements are making $0, but in reality they're making at least the minimum.
Exactly, he was a solid player who got paid like a big star Â
there are some fans on BBI who think the Giants can do no wrong.
Letting Joseph go was a mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
There was money there for both Joseph and DRC. 2014 FA Scorecard - ( New Window )
it was a mistake to let him go, it was a mistake to let James Jones go, it was a mistake to re-sign Beason, it was a mistake to do xyz, starting a billionth thread about it when as fans all we can do is say yeah that sucks I don't see the point.
I'm honestly just glad the James Jones threads stopped.
Now that Linval has a great game, and it was great, I see no need to restate what's been stated hundreds of times in the past year and a half.
that it seemed like the Giants never had any intention of re-signing him. They drafted Hankins as his replacement before his final season. They assumed Joseph was going to ask for too much. As it turned out, as Eric says, we could have afforded him.
Whether you thought Linval was great or just good, we have been losing the battle of attrition. Its shown in our record. We can't afford to keep letting healthy, young clear-cut starters walk for nothing.
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
Good point. The Bromley pick could have been used on one of our other many needs.
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
I for one am ecstatic Beason could not stay on the field
he was extremely ineffective. I cannot think of a memorable Beason moment
seemed so stupid to me at the time that I figured there must be some behind the scenes reason.
The defense that Hankins panned out rings hollow to me. The could absolutely play together. You build units of strength, and we would have had a top 5 DT combo.
Because it's another example that calls into question some of the personnel decisions being made by this club in recent years.
that's a different thread IMO, it's all a chain reaction, poor or injured draft picks force the team to use free agent $$$ to compensate at that position which robs potential free agent $$ from that position and then the team is sort of forced to backfill with other draft picks.
failures across the board here that have been well chronicled. And two super bowl wins buy a lot of goodwill to fail multiple times.
simply mentioning the Giants should have re-signed Linval shouldn't be met with any resistance at this point.
you don't cavalierly let your good, young players go when their rookie deals expire.
Hankins isn't the point. The point is that instead of drafting Austin, Hankins, Bromley, we could have used one or two of those picks on another need if we had Joseph here. You can't be in the position of having to draft the same positions year after year because you are letting people walk.
Some of you Randle haters need to think about that.
But a lot of Giants fans supported the Beason signing.
No way you could have DRC, Joseph and Beason. DRC was a must, so it was really Beason/Schwartz vs Joseph. Obviously, they made the wrong choice but hindsight is 20/20 , as they say.
you don't cavalierly let your good, young players go when their rookie deals expire.
Hankins isn't the point. The point is that instead of drafting Austin, Hankins, Bromley, we could have used one or two of those picks on another need if we had Joseph here. You can't be in the position of having to draft the same positions year after year because you are letting people walk.
Some of you Randle haters need to think about that.
Randle is nowhere near the quality of WR that LJ was at DT. Comparing the 2 is frankly wrong. You are right regarding the draft picks though. DT is just another position we need to sink premium resources into next spring.
Seems like a long-term trend for the Giants to let young DTs walk Â
After a win it sounds like we lost. We bringing up old stuff again. Losing LJ was a loss but you cant keep everyone. There was a more of a need for a lineman(Schwartz)and LB(Beason) more than another interior lineman at that point and they weren't going big money for that position. Look it didn't work because of injuries for both. And LJ was quite pedestrian for the Viking until yesterday and Giant fans take more notice especially after the Hankins injury. Look Reese has had a combination of bad drafting and catastrophic injuries which if they don't make the playoffs may cost him his job. But right now this team with all of its warts are in first and I would rather focus on what they do have and how they can make it work. There will be plenty of time to rake over the coals in the off season.
RE: Seems like a long-term trend for the Giants to let young DTs walk Â
1. He was awful last year. Fans would've complained the entire season about how signing him for that contract was the biggest FA mistake of Reese's tenure.
2. It's not the total or even average value of the deal that mattered. The Vikes gave him a large roster bonus ($2.4M) in 2014 which essentially frontloaded the deal. It would've been hard for the Giants to match that structure without creating even worse depth problems.
Sir, please, don't cite facts. It spoils all the fun.
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
A solid run stuffer who brings little pressure isn't a big money player in my mind.
At the time, there was a bit of implied growth and development of Joseph. I liked him, and was hopeful that a JPP/Joseph/Hankins line would prove elite.
Quote:
But Joseph is probably on a playoff team this year.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
Not sure about Hankins being better....
If you subscribe to PFF's grading (and I do for OL and DL only), Hankins was their 6th best DT last season. LJ, who I saw routinely get pushed back at the point of attack, was 65th I believe. Now, maybe he was hurt- I don't know. But I do know what I saw from him on a few occasions and PFF's grade reflected it. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen much of Minnesota this year so maybe in 2015 LJ has been better. I do know that Hankins hasn't looked as good as last year. Perhaps JPP's absence has a lot to do with that.
One of the few high round picks in recent years who was healthy and productive at a NEED position was allowed to walk.
Now we will be looking to draft another DT.
This is just dumb.
Would you rather have Hankins and Joseph at DT or Hankins and Kuhn?
Quote:
In comment 12609866 The_Boss said:
Quote:
But Joseph is probably on a playoff team this year.
It's ok, though. We have the Kuhn and Jenkins to pick up the slack.
Not sure about Hankins being better....
If you subscribe to PFF's grading (and I do for OL and DL only), Hankins was their 6th best DT last season. LJ, who I saw routinely get pushed back at the point of attack, was 65th I believe. Now, maybe he was hurt- I don't know. But I do know what I saw from him on a few occasions and PFF's grade reflected it. Now, to be fair, I haven't seen much of Minnesota this year so maybe in 2015 LJ has been better. I do know that Hankins hasn't looked as good as last year. Perhaps JPP's absence has a lot to do with that.
That's my point. Hankins has no help. Joseph would have made him more productive, and vice versa as well. I guess having two extremely effective run stuffing DTs was just too boring for the Giants. It's also probably why they drafted Austin instead of Paea.
One of the few high round picks in recent years who was healthy and productive at a NEED position was allowed to walk.
Now we will be looking to draft another DT.
This is just dumb.
Would you rather have Hankins and Joseph at DT or Hankins and Kuhn?
That's a ridiculous question. We didn't let LJ go so that we could sign Kuhn. The money saved on LJ was used to sign DRC and/or fill (much needed) depth at other positions.
We need more speed players like Moore and Whitlock on the D Line
Be happy - before Reese - the Giants used to draft their Marvin Austins in the first round -- Reece had shifted high risk / high reward drafting to the second and third round --
I would have rather have kept Joseph than signed those two.
not hindsight. I said it at the time, and so did many others here.
What a dumb move that was
That's the kind of mistake Belicheck never makes
I would have rather have kept Joseph than signed those two.
Thank you Eric! a MLB who can't stay on the field, and a RG who started 9 games the prior 4 years,
No, he was a good solid defensive player on a team that lacks good solid defensive players.
He and Hankins would have formed a nice run-stopping duo inside.
We specialize in revisionist history.
Did you know Jake Ballard is in the Theoretical Hall of Fame?
Letting Joseph go was a mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
There was money there for both Joseph and DRC. 2014 FA Scorecard - ( New Window )
THank you Eric.
The mistake wasn't letting him walk, it was the 1 year contract, but that was a condition that Bennett asked for.
It is a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario, especially in a sea of morons who don't understand the cap or player demands and think an infinite amount of $$ is available.
homer
I would have rather have kept Joseph than signed those two.
Beason's 2014 cap #: $3.15M
Schwartz's 2014 cap #: $2.33M
Joseph's 2014 cap #: $6.6M
That's a difference over $1M, so you need to still cut another player to fit Joseph. And that assumes the replacements are making $0, but in reality they're making at least the minimum.
Letting Joseph go was a mistake, and many of us said so at the time.
There was money there for both Joseph and DRC. 2014 FA Scorecard - ( New Window )
it was a mistake to let him go, it was a mistake to let James Jones go, it was a mistake to re-sign Beason, it was a mistake to do xyz, starting a billionth thread about it when as fans all we can do is say yeah that sucks I don't see the point.
I'm honestly just glad the James Jones threads stopped.
Now that Linval has a great game, and it was great, I see no need to restate what's been stated hundreds of times in the past year and a half.
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
Good point. The Bromley pick could have been used on one of our other many needs.
I swear some of you like being angry.
He was a solid tackle....fact is, we knew what we had in him....we didn't know what we had in Beason, who couldn't stay on the field....the average difference in their contract was, like 600K.....We have diminishing returns on some of the players Reese has signed in FA....so Beason was a mistake, especially when you don't have another Tackle besides Hankins...
You keep Linval, you use the Bromley pick elsewhere....having Hankins and Linval, is definitely better than trotting Kuhn, Bromley, and Jenkins out there...those two guys would have strengthened the run defense, and make our ends look better....
I for one am ecstatic Beason could not stay on the field
he was extremely ineffective. I cannot think of a memorable Beason moment
The defense that Hankins panned out rings hollow to me. The could absolutely play together. You build units of strength, and we would have had a top 5 DT combo.
that's a different thread IMO, it's all a chain reaction, poor or injured draft picks force the team to use free agent $$$ to compensate at that position which robs potential free agent $$ from that position and then the team is sort of forced to backfill with other draft picks.
failures across the board here that have been well chronicled. And two super bowl wins buy a lot of goodwill to fail multiple times.
simply mentioning the Giants should have re-signed Linval shouldn't be met with any resistance at this point.
Hankins isn't the point. The point is that instead of drafting Austin, Hankins, Bromley, we could have used one or two of those picks on another need if we had Joseph here. You can't be in the position of having to draft the same positions year after year because you are letting people walk.
Some of you Randle haters need to think about that.
No way you could have DRC, Joseph and Beason. DRC was a must, so it was really Beason/Schwartz vs Joseph. Obviously, they made the wrong choice but hindsight is 20/20 , as they say.
Hankins isn't the point. The point is that instead of drafting Austin, Hankins, Bromley, we could have used one or two of those picks on another need if we had Joseph here. You can't be in the position of having to draft the same positions year after year because you are letting people walk.
Some of you Randle haters need to think about that.
Randle is nowhere near the quality of WR that LJ was at DT. Comparing the 2 is frankly wrong. You are right regarding the draft picks though. DT is just another position we need to sink premium resources into next spring.
Good point. The strategy predates Reese.
You too? This is false; the Giants were not going to match what the Vikings paid. It had ZERO to do with Beason.
2. It's not the total or even average value of the deal that mattered. The Vikes gave him a large roster bonus ($2.4M) in 2014 which essentially frontloaded the deal. It would've been hard for the Giants to match that structure without creating even worse depth problems.
Sir, please, don't cite facts. It spoils all the fun.
I thought so. I though much higher of him than you did (obviously).
Quote:
Joseph go is turning out to be the single worst FA move by Reese. He was a high round pick who had clearly earned a large, second contract. Reese apparently thought he was just another in a long line of rookie DTs he could replace. Joseph replaced Cofield, who was then replaced by Hankins. But stopping the run is critical, and why not pair him with Hankins? Two run stuffing DTs taking up blocks would make any group of DEs more effective.
People get on Reese for his poor drafts but his FA strategies leave a lot to be desired. LJ is definitely #1 in his portfolio of failure on that front. It's mind numbing that not resigning him is ahead of:
Letting Marty B walk
Signing the crappy TE who is now on Tampa
Baas
Beason
JT Thomas
Casillas
Harris' crazy contract
Beatty's crazy contract
Willing to hand out significant $$ to O'brien Schofield (luckily he failed that physical)
Newhouse
Charles Brown
(I can go on and on)
You really don't have a clue, do you?
At the time, there was a bit of implied growth and development of Joseph. I liked him, and was hopeful that a JPP/Joseph/Hankins line would prove elite.
No, but they will certainly say they think he is.