PFF: Kuhn Worst DT in NFL

of the sacKuhn

wurst

The tackles per run stat is bogus. How many time did they run at him? How many tackles opportunities did he have?

Dan in Somewhere Springs took a few clips of Kuhns but it was too few to really draw any major conclusions.

While I assume he's not great, I'm not ready to just buy that he's as terrible as BBI makes him out to be. My assumption has always been that his job is to occupy blockers so others can make plays. To the extent that he's able to do that, I have no idea but would be curious to see some real evidence one way or another.

He's been almost as bad as Kuhn?

.........

In comment 12615281 armstead98 said:

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Dan in Somewhere Springs took a few clips of Kuhns but it was too few to really draw any major conclusions. While I assume he's not great, I'm not ready to just buy that he's as terrible as BBI makes him out to be. My assumption has always been that his job is to occupy blockers so others can make plays. To the extent that he's able to do that, I have no idea but would be curious to see some real evidence one way or another.

That's PFFs assessment, not BBIs.

To make plays when he is single blocked. He is not. Nobody is looking at our team and saying, "we have to get two guys on the German fellow so we are able to run the ball."

In comment 12615290 BigBlueShock said:

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That's PFFs assessment, not BBIs.

I realize that but as we have all seen PFF comes up with awful grades sometimes. What raises the red flag in their assessment is that they talk about his sacks and his stats in general. We all know his job is to occupy blockers so others can make the plays.

How is he doing on that front? I'd like to see some clips that argue one way or the other. Presumably the Giants think he's good at it because he's been the starter over some decent vets so he must be doing something right.

What would Spags or TC say is the thing that he's doing right? Despite what many here say, those two know have forgotten more about football than any poster here knows.

A little video arguing one way or the other is all I'd like to see. Not going to happen though b/c who wants to spend hours breaking down film of Kuhn?

Is the only lineman I've ever heard of being talked about as 'occupying' blockers... most good lineman 'shed' blockers, or go through them or around them and make plays.

Did Hankins 'occupy' blockers? Does any other good DL in the NFL, have their #1 skill 'occupy'?

he said that when they asked him about Cooper earlier in the season. Kuhn plays because Tom Coughlin wants him to play.

Kuhn gestanks.

...well, his massive strength. The best thing he does is take on double teams. He is very stout. He is not good at shedding blocks, and oddly seems more effective at taking on double teams than a single blocker. Weird but true.

In comment 12615275 Deej said:

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wurst

OK, I lol'd at that.

I see you're a big Coughlin fan.

Many schemes have the DTs occupy blockers and keep the LBs clean.

...about 6 yards downfield unfortunately. He's terrible.

vs the Bucs. Some of that was due to not having OL banging on him. Maybe someone was occupying blockers ? I wonder who?

In comment 12615277 AP in Halfmoon said:

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The tackles per run stat is bogus. How many time did they run at him? How many tackles opportunities did he have?

As Jordan Ranaan showed with JPP, you can have success against the run without being in on the tackle if you can close off gaps.

In comment 12615319 GiantsRage2007 said:

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Is the only lineman I've ever heard of being talked about as 'occupying' blockers... most good lineman 'shed' blockers, or go through them or around them and make plays. Did Hankins 'occupy' blockers? Does any other good DL in the NFL, have their #1 skill 'occupy'?

No, this was a big part of Siragusa's game back in the day. And that guy on the Niners, #94.

Fuckin guy is awful - and TC is out of his bird

he's not! He looks glorious.

He's taking on blockers, getting pushed backwards and out of the play consistently.

That's what I see.

In comment 12615275 Deej said:

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wurst

Lmao

Spags speaks highly of him.

Some of his peers have spoken highly of him including Jenkins.

I think I'll go with them instead of Joe BBI who started his senior year at Smallville High in 1998 when the regular got injured, the backup caught the flue and the backup to the backup had athletes foot so bad he couldn't wear cleates..

Spags speaks highly of him.

Some of his peers have spoken highly of him including Jenkins.

I think I'll go with them instead of Joe BBI who started his senior year at Smallville High in 1998 when the regular got injured, the backup caught the flue and the backup to the backup had athletes foot so bad he couldn't wear cleates..

He is not stout he is regularly pushed out of the hole, often into other defenders.

His teammates and coaches stick up for him, doesn't mean he doesn't suck.

In comment 12615458 Reale01 said:

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He is not stout he is regularly pushed out of the hole, often into other defenders.

Well, to be fair I have not keyed in on him in a while, but based on watching many clips from Dan in the Springs (and keying on him in games when it was a hot(ter) topic) what I noticed was that he wasn't on skates nearly as much as what some BBI'ers proclaim... also that he seems to have better technique against double teams. Quite a few clips of him being very stout at the POA against double teams, more so than against Single blockers seemingly. For the record I'm also not saying he is Keith Hamilton either... I'd be happy for an upgrade on the DL, just that when I have keyed on him he seems to not be able to shed single blocks well but he is stout against two OL.

when Kuhn was out.

the first few games when Kuhn was out? He came back and then what happened?

Was right I guess

In comment 12615486 RobCrossRiver56 said:

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the first few games when Kuhn was out? He came back and then what happened?

Could be, not sure if that was specifically on Kuhn.

In comment 12615352 AP in Halfmoon said:

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Many schemes have the DTs occupy blockers and keep the LBs clean.

That opens another can of worms... our lack of LB play.

In comment 12615379 Moondawg said:

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In comment 12615319 GiantsRage2007 said: Quote: Is the only lineman I've ever heard of being talked about as 'occupying' blockers... most good lineman 'shed' blockers, or go through them or around them and make plays. Did Hankins 'occupy' blockers? Does any other good DL in the NFL, have their #1 skill 'occupy'? No, this was a big part of Siragusa's game back in the day. And that guy on the Niners, #94.

Seems like Kuhn does this 5 yards downfield, getting pushed back into the LB

"He looks good getting off the bus" is basically where we're at. Whatever. Kuhn has become the least of this defense's worries.

Btw. PFF is fantasy horseshit make believe nonsense.

My eyes already told me that he's the worst starting DT I've ever seen in a Giant uniform.

The sky is blue.

In comment 12615370 PEEJ said:

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vs the Bucs. Some of that was due to not having OL banging on him. Maybe someone was occupying blockers ? I wonder who?

That goes with occupying two most times. Kuhn can barely handle one.

Looks like he's playing in tennis shoes the way he gets knocked around in the trenches. How I miss watching the man monster Linval Joseph just jacking linemen up.

has been adequate and the attacks seem to be anti germanic.

I think BBI tends to grab onto a narrative and stick with it regardless (i.e. Schwartz and Jerry suck based on a few plays, when the actually have been decent). In the case of Kuhn, I have keyed on him and he just is not very good - constantly pushed around. He does appear to give maximum effort, and does hustle through the whistle on every play. I've also noticed that he seems to always be next to TC in the post game locker room celebrations. Playing this guy so many snaps a game like they are is most definitely hurting this defense. IMO, they should be starting Jenkins and Bromley, and rotating plenty of Ayers in at the DT spot, where he seems to excel. Let Kuhn get 15 snaps or so a game and that's it.

In comment 12615275 Deej said:

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wurst

But apparently not a knock.

goes beyond in the weight room, doesn't cause penalties, hustles until the whistle, shows up for meetings with germanic punctuality, seems to have a good instinct for sniffing out screen plays and is indeed a teacher's pet. but hard work in the NFL will only take you so far. you have to have talent too. I keyed in on him a lot this season and he simply just gets easily manipulated by either guards and centers one on one.

In comment 12615448 grizz299 said:

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Spags speaks highly of him. Some of his peers have spoken highly of him including Jenkins. I think I'll go with them instead of Joe BBI who started his senior year at Smallville High in 1998 when the regular got injured, the backup caught the flue and the backup to the backup had athletes foot so bad he couldn't wear cleates..

Coaches and teammates spoke highly of Preston Parker, too.

In comment 12615973 BMac said:

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In comment 12615275 Deej said: Quote: wurst But apparently not a knock.

Heh heh I chuckled, I did.

In comment 12615281 armstead98 said:

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Dan in Somewhere Springs took a few clips of Kuhns but it was too few to really draw any major conclusions. While I assume he's not great, I'm not ready to just buy that he's as terrible as BBI makes him out to be. My assumption has always been that his job is to occupy blockers so others can make plays. To the extent that he's able to do that, I have no idea but would be curious to see some real evidence one way or another.

He's absolutely god awful. I was actually going to do a few screen caps of some short yardage vs. the Bucs, he was two-three yards behind EVERYONE. Go look at my review for the Cowboys game, I show a Kuhn play where he is absolutely destroyed. That is pretty much the norm, he's a complete liability not just a non factor. You don't need anyone to breakdown anything, just watch him when he's in and see where he ends up.

In comment 12615448 grizz299 said:

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Spags speaks highly of him. Some of his peers have spoken highly of him including Jenkins. I think I'll go with them instead of Joe BBI who started his senior year at Smallville High in 1998 when the regular got injured, the backup caught the flue and the backup to the backup had athletes foot so bad he couldn't wear cleates..

They're wrong, period. They see something in practice, great, but I've watched and rewatched every snap numerous times this year and he's awful. I'm sorry you can't think for yourself, or for that matter speak without sounding like a total moron.

what happened with my film review of Kuhn. First of all, my primary take was confusion on how Kuhn could be so high on the depth chart in the preseason. I just couldn't see anything about him that said he was making any progress. I said so in a comment, and someone else suggested I review his game tape in detail. So I did, and have, for several games since. Here's my take.

He gets absolutely no pass rush at all, but he plays with his head up and so often jumps to try and block the pass. He also can recognize a screen quickly. Having said that, he really gets glued to blockers, so even when he clearly recognizes the screen he often is unable to release from a block until too late.

He hustles on every play and doesn't stop until the whistle. I'm sure the coaches love that.

He can sometimes hold the point well, and as commented earlier it seems as though he does better against a double-team than he does in one-on-one matchups. I have read from a lot of posters about how he's on roller-skates, but it seems to me that this happens with similar frequency to other DT's. Yes, there are plays he is driven off the line. But there are many other plays, most plays in fact, where he can anchor the line pretty well. A lot of times when you see a linebacker make a play in the backfield, Kuhn may have absorbed a double-team allowing that LBer to get through.


So he can be stout against double teams at times. I think it's because in those situations he can anchor and face the line straight up. When battling OL one on one, it seems it is easy to get him to turn his shoulders then hips. He doesn't anchor anything once this has happened, and teams repeatedly run in his direction with a single blocker because of it.

Now, the thing I see that is the most damning is that he simply doesn't seem to be a football player. I think he likely has been coached to make contact and hold the point, and he doesn't really understand when it's a good idea to abandon that philosophy, as I often see runners going right through a hole to his left or right and he does nothing but continue to hold his point against his man. In fact, I've seen plays where the runner is already a yard or two past him running in another direction and Kuhn is still locked into his battle "holding the point". There are plays that he's been in position to make and he doesn't, all because he's not playing the game to make the tackle, or to prevent the runner from advancing. He seems to not be playing football, and instead to be playing a game of matching physical strength against the OL.

So the net of my observations is this: that there are things that the coaches can see that they can clearly compliment and feel good about. That Kuhn is not blown off the ball as often as people say he is here on BBI. That Kuhn is still a work in progress, and the coaches may feel that he is improving. I think his progress has stalled, he is not a football player, and at some point, he's going to be cut and not picked up by any other team.

That is my opinion of Mr. Kuhn as well. It's too bad he can't absorb some more football sense, he clearly has the physical tools to be a good Defensive lineman. I'm sure the coaches feel (felt?) that they can coach up his football sense, but seems not to be the case unfortunately.

I think my position gets overstated because it's a complex one, and because I had a change of opinion on BBI after reviewing all of Kuhn's snaps in a particular game. Prior to the tape, I couldn't see any way that Kuhn contributed anything. Watching every single snap allowed me to find a few contributions and reminded me that when coaches evaluate players, they evaluate them based on assignments. Kuhn fills a particular assignment that calls for very little to no recognition when it's done well, and yet is easily recognizable when it's done poorly. Thus the disequilibrium between fans and coaches evaluation of Kuhn, and complex interpretations of his performance.

This sometimes gets mistaken with my being a Kuhn supporter, or with my evaluations proving in some way that he's a good player for the team.

Until the game against the Bucs, Beason and Unga played MLB without much success on run plays when Kuhn was in there.

Against the Bucs, Brinkley had a great game- 10 tackles, 1 fumble recovery and 1 fumble recovered. Kuhn was in for 50 snaps.

So, question is if Kuhn is holding POA and Brinkley had great game, were we gashed previously in run plays because of Unga and Beason or was Brinkley's game just a fluke?

in a Giants uniform. Possibly the 2 worst period.

In comment 12616961 Victor in CT said:

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in a Giants uniform. Possibly the 2 worst period.

No way. These guys are in no way worse than Kevin Lewis, Damane Duckett, Will Demps, CC Brown, Aaron Rouse... need I go on? There are always going to be role players on the roster that are journeymen (or obviously less than journeyman) that unfortunately need to fill roster spots in this day and age of the cap... and of course will draw the ire on many a BBI'er. Hmmm, BBIRE... I like that!

In comment 12616782 Steve Filipowicz said:

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Until the game against the Bucs, Beason and Unga played MLB without much success on run plays when Kuhn was in there. Against the Bucs, Brinkley had a great game- 10 tackles, 1 fumble recovery and 1 fumble recovered. Kuhn was in for 50 snaps. So, question is if Kuhn is holding POA and Brinkley had great game, were we gashed previously in run plays because of Unga and Beason or was Brinkley's game just a fluke?

A loaded question, sorry I won't be able to give a simple response to it.

First of all, I'm not arguing that Kuhn consistently holds the POA well. I'm saying that when he's been tested against double-teams (which isn't every play), he has held up well. Also, he is often able to stay within a yard or two of the LOS even when solo-blocked. I say this to counter what I believe is a fallacy here on BBI - that Kuhn is on roller-skates and simply blown 6 yards off the LOS on every play. I know that he has been blown off the LOS on occasion, but not as often as people think, and I have nearly as frequently seen Bromley and even Hankins several yards downfield at times. The difference between them and Kuhn is that they also make some plays near the LOS, and Kuhn almost never does.

I didn't key on Kuhn or Brinkley in the Bucs game - In my review I was focusing on the back end of the defense and on JPP when watching the LOS. I should say that Joey in VA and others here know a lot more about football and evaluating players than I do, so if he says he sees something in general I believe you can take it to the bank.

Having said that, and without having my notes in front of me, here are my impressions of what's happened lately in run defense. In the first Dallas game they attacked the edges of our run defense with pretty good success. Bryant and Witten are really good run blockers and Dallas continually ran against that side (Kennard/Prince/Selvie) with great success.

In the second Dallas game they ran the ball right at Kuhn on multiple occasions. They had success running at him, not really driving him off the ball but turning his shoulders to create holes. This kind of block impedes backside pursuit, so if there is any hesitation on the part of the LBers they are not able to get near the play.

Dallas is not the only team that appears to have targeted Kuhn. In at least three of the games I've tracked this year he's been a target.

WRT our LB play, I don't think Unga was ever really strong against the run. He benefited from Thomas/Casillas and Kennard/Herzlich who have played the run well. He is a decent but not punishing tackler who rarely gets his tackles in the hole or offensive backfield, but more often is able to get through to make a tackle further downfield. He does cover a lot of ground and so he accumulates a lot of tackles, but he's not making stops at the LOS as often as I'd like.

Beason has obviously not played as much as we'd like, and I've not seen him flash as much either. Generally speaking he's been okay against the run.

I think Brinkley may be the type of MLB who can benefit from playing behind Kuhn. If he reads the run well he appears to play his best going forward, and can fill any holes created by Kuhn. So it is possible that he owes some of his success against the run from Sunday to Kuhn. I will try to watch some more, as I'm especially curious as to how well Brinkley did given the acclaim he's received on BBI. But if Joey is telling us that Kuhn had a horrible game then I wouldn't argue that with him.

I think Kuhn fans and bashers are pretty well known by now, in which case you know I'm a fan. I've appreciated Dan's analyses and also his summary today.

Regardless of the PFF grade and rank, I think it's been pretty much ignored in this thread that their summary -- "Kuhn has been below-average when it comes to rushing the passer, just not extremely below-average " -- is distinctly less harsh than that of Kuhn's worst critics on BBI.

I feel like the bashing got started (I've said this before) because a lot of people were rooting for Kuhn to succeed, and wanted to see it happen over time, while others just had no skin in that game and, Giants fans and all, went the other direction to extreme criticism.

I'm sure most Kuhn fans are disappointed by now that he hasn't progressed, whether it's for precisely the reason Dan cites today or some other combination of factors.

I'll just observe that while his fans may err with occasional undeserved praise, the tendency in the other direction is much more severe ... as illustrated by the PFF nutshell I quoted above.

As Giants fans, the problem for all of us -- fans and detractors -- is that regardless of his quality of play, even presuming he won't improve, with the current personnel situation and draft/free agency strategies, his position on the roster [ not as a starter ] doesn't actually seem significantly shakier for next season than it was entering the one.

In comment 12615559 B in ALB said:

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"He looks good getting off the bus" is basically where we're at. Whatever. Kuhn has become the least of this defense's worries. Btw. PFF is fantasy horseshit make believe nonsense.

Incredibly dismissive statement. There's some good stuff in those statistics if you understand the context of the metrics.

on defense. He doesn't penetrate, tackle, overwhelm anybody on any play.

He is just kind of big guy with a Giant uniform on.

I go with our DC, Spagnuolo, who is getting what he wants from Kuhn in his defense, which is improving every week. If not he would be replaced.. Same for all you season long, armchair Kuhn haters.

What's your Reese hate qualified then?