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The punt return

sphinx : 11/16/2015 9:31 am
Bob Papa & #8207;@BobPapa_NFL 44s44 seconds ago
Bob Papa Retweeted KERRBOOM
Saw that Bob Papa added,

KERRBOOM @KERRBOOM1970
@BobPapa_NFL After watch NE punt return, I thought there were 2 crackback blocks as well as the punter getting nailed in the back. Thoughts?

Papa is agreeing about 2 crackbacks and a block in the back. Can anyone who can replay confirm? And yes, I understand the game is over and the Giants lost.

On a general level, Hochuli and his crew were  
That’s Gold, Jerry : 11/16/2015 9:36 am : link
awful. I mean, OBJ was mugged all night amd tjere were some calls but there should have been plenty more. As for our PR, I have a hard time giving this unit a break. They are terrible and have cost us at least two games this year as they do every year under Quinn.

plus  
area junc : 11/16/2015 9:37 am : link
amendola made some sort of gesture resembling a fair catch gesture that caused harris to stop playing
Should have never come to that...  
Doomster : 11/16/2015 9:37 am : link
Harris and Darkwa missed tackles.....
They've called..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/16/2015 9:37 am : link
blindside blocks and low block all year. Herzlich was taken out below the knees and no flag.

Meanwhile, a Giants team that has committed very few penalties on returns was flagged three times yesterday.
the pats  
area junc : 11/16/2015 9:38 am : link
were shockingly inept covering our long ball. belichick was taking away our short passing game (because that's what we do) which continually allowed shots down the field.
and they did the same thing everytime - pass interference. perhaps banking that the officials wouldn't call it over and over again
RE: plus  
giants#1 : 11/16/2015 9:45 am : link
In comment 12626040 area junc said:
Quote:
amendola made some sort of gesture resembling a fair catch gesture that caused harris to stop playing


I saw that too, not sure how that wasn't a fair catch.
it was huge  
area junc : 11/16/2015 9:49 am : link
tom coughlin was ripped about it. it caused everyone to freeze which gave amendola a step on 4 or 5 different guys he never would've had. it was a good directional punt and he was pinned good without everyone hesitating. maddening
the crack back  
hitdog42 : 11/16/2015 9:50 am : link
was obvious even watching live- I was certain the play was coming back--- shocker it wasn't--- and the crack back was right in the middle of the open field and obvious
Harris pulling up was a huge boner  
JonC : 11/16/2015 9:51 am : link
Need to see a replay on Amendola's supposed gesture, it turned the whole game on its arse.
I was wondering  
NYGIANTS86 : 11/16/2015 9:51 am : link
if I saw, at the time I thought it, that he was calling for a fair catch. It could have been him just clearing out the Patriot players, but I thought for sure I saw arms waiving.

Anyone else see what I thought I saw?
I thought  
dorgan : 11/16/2015 9:52 am : link
he called a fair catch, but can't find a good clip of it to confirm.

The camera got there a little late but I thought he waved one of his arms.

Don't you only..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/16/2015 9:52 am : link
clear out the players if the ball is going to bounce short? Why would he clear them out if he was catching it easily?
I think he was trying to fool the Giants that the ball  
GiantGolfer : 11/16/2015 9:56 am : link
was going to land short. It worked.
RE: plus  
ron mexico : 11/16/2015 9:58 am : link
In comment 12626040 area junc said:
Quote:
amendola made some sort of gesture resembling a fair catch gesture that caused harris to stop playing


this - whats the rule there?
RE: I think he was trying to fool the Giants that the ball  
dorgan : 11/16/2015 9:58 am : link
In comment 12626164 GiantGolfer said:
Quote:
was going to land short. It worked.



That could be. You can't tell from the clips I've seen.

It'll get cleared up eventually, but it's moot at this point.
RE: Harris pulling up was a huge boner  
ron mexico : 11/16/2015 9:59 am : link
In comment 12626124 JonC said:
Quote:
Need to see a replay on Amendola's supposed gesture, it turned the whole game on its arse.


he wove both arms in front of him.
in addition to the Amendola "gesture"  
giants#1 : 11/16/2015 9:59 am : link
there were 2 blatant crackbacks (is this where Herz got injured?) and a block in the back on Wing.
Coughlin won't say anything publicly,  
CT Charlie : 11/16/2015 10:20 am : link
and it's probably a good thing. You don't want to antagonize refs.

But for sheer entertainment value, it would be fun to see what a coach like Rex or Harbaugh would have said about the return.
RE: Coughlin won't say anything publicly,  
giants#1 : 11/16/2015 10:27 am : link
In comment 12626290 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
and it's probably a good thing. You don't want to antagonize refs.

But for sheer entertainment value, it would be fun to see what a coach like Rex or Harbaugh would have said about the return.


At this point, maybe he should. We can't possibly get effed more by the refs. They cost us the Dallas game and they cost us a chance in the Saints game. And those are just the blatantly obvious calls that went against us.
Amendola....  
BillKo : 11/16/2015 10:28 am : link
did zero wrong. You're allowed to tell your players "get away" by waving your arms such as he did. It in no way was a fair catch call.

Harris was there, but when he saw Amendola waving his arms, he figured it was going to bounce........and he let up.
Just rewatched the punt  
GIANTS128 : 11/16/2015 10:29 am : link
Amendola is looking up for the ball gestures as if the ball wont be caught. Good play by him...bad play by Harris. Definate crackback on Herzlich. Below the waist and never saw him coming. Wing was definately hiyt in the back....
RE: Just rewatched the punt  
dorgan : 11/16/2015 10:37 am : link
In comment 12626334 GIANTS128 said:
Quote:
Amendola is looking up for the ball gestures as if the ball wont be caught. Good play by him...bad play by Harris. Definate crackback on Herzlich. Below the waist and never saw him coming. Wing was definately hiyt in the back....


Where'd you find the clip?
Dorgan Its on youtube  
GIANTS128 : 11/16/2015 10:45 am : link
here is the link
Amendola punt return - ( New Window )
The all-22 isn't yet available...  
Dan in the Springs : 11/16/2015 11:10 am : link
but on the replay you can see that Amendola was swinging his arms albeit low, and that Harris pulled up. Here's a pic...



It's a mistake on Harris' part. Perhaps the coaches share blame for not scouting the Patriots close enough to see that this apparently also was done by them against the Jets. I bet the Giants complain about this one later as the ruling is meant to protect the receiver, and taking advantage of it in this way will likely lead to more receivers taking awful hits.

Regarding the hits crackbacks - here's what the rule says:

Quote:
BLOCKING BELOW WAIST ON KICKS AND CHANGE OF POSSESSION

Article 14 Blocks below the waist are prohibited in the following situations:

(a) By players of either team after a change of possession;
or

(b) By players of the kicking team after a Free Kick, Safety Kick, Fair-Catch Kick, Punt, Field-Goal Attempt, or Try Kick; or

(c) By players of the receiving team during a down in which there is a Free Kick, Safety Kick, Fair-Catch Kick, Punt, Field-Goal Attempt, or Try Kick.
Exception: Immediately at the snap, players on the receiving team who are on the line of scrimmage and lined up on or inside the normal tight end position are permitted to block low during a Punt, Field-Goal Attempt,
or Try Kick.

Note: Illegal contact with the helmet against the knee of the snapper during a Field-Goal Attempt or a Try Kick is unnecessary roughness (see 12-2-8-i).

Penalty: For illegally blocking below the waist: Loss of 15 yards.


Here's the blocks in question

The block on Herz:


You can clearly see him being hit on the thigh - the blocker dove in front. An argument could be made based on the angle that he's above the waist here, but the next couple of frames show that contact was clearly on the thigh as Herzlich's upper body continues it's momentum and his lower body is immediately stopped.

The block on Morris:


I believe this was a legal block. It is clear that he takes the contact above the waist, not below it.

The block on Wing:


Second view of the block on Wing:


Clearly he is shoved from behind at the point where he can possibly make a play on the runner. Here's what the rulebook says about blocks from behind.

Quote:
A blocker may use his arms, or open or closed hands, to contact an opponent on or outside the opponent’s
frame (the body of an opponent below the neck that is presented to the blocker). If a blocker’s arms or
hands are outside an opponent’s frame, it is a foul if the blocker materially restricts him. The blocker
immediately must work to bring his hands inside the opponent’s frame, and as the play develops, the
blocker is permitted to work for and maintain his position against an opponent, provided that he does not illegally clip or illegally push from behind.


From everything I see, there were two penalties that should have been called and enforced, both of which were imo egregious and obvious. Morris was not a penalty, and the motion by Amendola to mislead Harris was a heady, well-coached play, even if it takes advantage of the rules meant to protect players.
Illegal fair catch not called...  
Torrag : 11/16/2015 11:15 am : link
Multiple illegal blocks not called. All on a critical momentum changing play. All this after calling it very close for the Giants special teamers with multiple return penalties.

Hochuli's crew is the worst in the NFL. Anytime I see his fucking face I know we are in for a long day.

And none of this addresses the rest of the game which was terribly officiated.
sorry, let me try those pics again...  
Dan in the Springs : 11/16/2015 11:16 am : link
pic of Amendola


pic of Herz


pic of Morris


First pic of Wing


Second pic of Wing

just re-watched  
area junc : 11/16/2015 11:24 am : link
what the hell is darkwa doing? it's a directional punt. wing places it perfectly and the coverage is in position.

darkwa has outside contain and a free shot at amendola but whiffs on the tackle and does the one thing he can't do: let him outside.

not as obvious as the beckham and collins drops but every bit as bad a play. but he's a RB playing gunner. and he looked like it
Amendola  
B in ALB : 11/16/2015 11:31 am : link
waves his arms at his side to throw off the gunner and the initial cover guys. It's one of his little tricks that he pulls out every now and then. It's not illegal per se but it definitely had the desired effect as Harris seemed to pull up and stop running. It's another cheap little trick that Belichick and his crew of trashbags deploy.
I think they should've flagged two blindside blocks, if nothing else  
JonC : 11/16/2015 11:57 am : link
.
Harris pulling up was a huge mistake to kickstart  
JonC : 11/16/2015 11:58 am : link
the entire fail sequence.
Herzlich block was clearly illegal  
Greg from LI : 11/16/2015 12:01 pm : link
Amendola's little ruse is cheap but legal.
If that's legal it should be changed  
Torrag : 11/16/2015 12:04 pm : link
It's clearly intended to and has the effect of misleading the gunner and coverage men.
RE: Amendola  
giants#1 : 11/16/2015 12:11 pm : link
In comment 12626664 B in ALB said:
Quote:
waves his arms at his side to throw off the gunner and the initial cover guys. It's one of his little tricks that he pulls out every now and then. It's not illegal per se but it definitely had the desired effect as Harris seemed to pull up and stop running. It's another cheap little trick that Belichick and his crew of trashbags deploy.


If it's not illegal (it's borderline since you can be flagged for an illegal Fair Catch signal), then it needs to be in the name of player safety. Some returner is going to get drilled after a legit fair catch signal because of borderline deceptiveness like this.
Great "trick" by Danny boy  
rickrossa : 11/16/2015 12:11 pm : link
I read an article today where Danny boy Amendola said that he knew his team was going after the punt and that the gunner "harris" would be free down the field. He never made any false attempt to fake a fair catch but what he did do was move his hands to the side and yelled "poison" which tells his teammates to stop blocking and get away from the ball because it is a short punt and he won't be fielding it. This tricked Harris into thinking the ball will not be fielded and he held back on attacking Danny. So this was a perfectly legal and more importantly smart play by Amendola and this comes from coaching...it's the little things like this that help a team pull out a close win, something our Giants seem to lack...
Great coaching..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/16/2015 12:15 pm : link
on executing several blindside blocks and low b locks too.

This is why we lose - we aren't teaching cheating!
RE: Great  
sphinx : 11/16/2015 12:18 pm : link
In comment 12626841 rickrossa said:
Quote:
This tricked Harris into thinking the ball will not be fielded and he held back on attacking Danny.

The fair catch rule is there to protect the returner.

ugh  
EVERY4YEARS : 11/16/2015 12:19 pm : link
but where was Harris going???? WTF?

Also Wing get pushed in the back and the guy gets Wings face mask

15 yds penalty from the spot of the Wing face mask was a badly missed call

I could see it from the beginning of the game the fix was in

we weren't going to get ANY calls

Well the football gods punished them- they probably lost their best receiver for the season with a broken foot

in that sense football gods wise we came out relatively injury free still in 1st place thanks to Sanchez, and they lost their best Receiver likely for the year in what for them was a relatively meaningless game
The play sucked in general  
cnewk : 11/16/2015 12:56 pm : link
Harris clearly was fooled into not attacking the return man. You can't see much of what he did, but it doesn't look like he raised his hands up, which would have been a penalty. Harris needs to have better awareness.

The block on Morris was clearly a legal block. Anyone complaining about that one either didn't watch it closely or is too biased to see it objectively.

The block on Wing was borderline in my view. I think a no call there is the right call. It looks to me like he puts his hand on the side of the shoulder and pushes. It does not look like it is in the back to me, though it is close.

The block on Herzlich looks to be an illegal block to me that should have been called, but was close. It looks like he hits him in the upper thigh up through his waist. It's a missed call, but a close one. It doesn't look blatant to me, unlike some of the other bad calls in the game.
Saw it too.....  
Simms11 : 11/16/2015 1:02 pm : link
just had to shake my head. The refs were way too inconsistent in this game and essentially looking the other way on critical plays. Very odd or just a case of poor officiating. This crew should all get put on NCAA games!
I thought the crackback blocks were obvious  
David in LA : 11/16/2015 1:13 pm : link
the hand wave...BB always coaching his team to ride the fine lines of the rules.
Wing's block was clearly illegal.  
Dan in the Springs : 11/16/2015 2:02 pm : link
Read the rule I posted - that a block is illegal except when it involves pushing from behind.

Look at the pictures I posted. Two things are clear. First, that Wing was pushed. Second, that the blocker was behind Wing, not to the side. The only reason you might consider it a side block is because the blocker approached him from the side. But Wing was turning. That's why I posted the first pic. It's the pic of the player first making contact with Wing. His left (forward) foot is behind Wing's left (trailing) leg. This would never be the case if you were running alongside someone. Your forward foot would be in front of their trailing leg. Even if you were running into their side your forward foot would be trail leg. The only way to get your forward foot behind the trail leg is to be behind the runner entirely.

Would Wing have made the play? It seems unlikely he would have completed the tackle, but he may have slowed him down or been able to nudge him enough to get him to go out of bounds. That shouldn't matter, as it was the second bad block of the play and was at the center of the action - no way any official should be missing that block.
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