Clock Management - Running the ball from the 5

enough with this...they scored a TD and it got taken off the board.

But the DH made a good plY and OBJ needed to hold on to the ball.

1st and Goal (2:06) - Run for small gain. Two min warning

2nd and Goal (2:00) - Run for small gain. Pats take time out

3rd and Goal (1:45) - Run for no gain.

4th and Goal (1:05) - FG

1:00 - kickoff

Pats get the ball with 50 seconds left

you are giving them an extra 40 yards if you just bend over and take the field goal. A td is vastly different than a fg.

In comment 12627208 SethFromAstoria said:

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you are giving them an extra 40 yards if you just bend over and take the field goal. A td is vastly different than a fg.

I'm just comparing the two scenarios for the sake of argument.

Maybe the third runs yields a TD. Maybe the first run does.

Either way, an incomplete pass before the two min warning is the worst case scenario, after a turnover of course.

In comment 12627204 ron mexico said:

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1st and Goal (2:06) - Run for small gain. Two min warning 2nd and Goal (2:00) - Run for small gain. Pats take time out 3rd and Goal (1:45) - Run for no gain. 4th and Goal (1:05) - FG 1:00 - kickoff Pats get the ball with 50 seconds left

Ron - you're giving some extra seconds there. For example, if you watched NE intentionally downed the kickoff, so no time ran off. You're giving 10 seconds there, not happening.

I also think a run isn't taking 6 seconds. Esp with NE in goalline.

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you are giving them an extra 30 seconds ron mexico : 1:42 pm : link : reply 1st and Goal (2:06) - Run for small gain. Two min warning 2nd and Goal (2:00) - Run for small gain. Pats take time out 3rd and Goal (1:45) - Run for no gain. 4th and Goal (1:05) - FG 1:00 - kickoff Pats get the ball with 50 seconds left

They should get the ball around 1:05 left. Pats would take the TO before the 2 minute warning as a run play wouldn't take 6 seconds. Then you get the two minute warning. Then the 3rd down play would take the clock to around 1:15 - then the FG.

In comment 12627237 ron mexico said:

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In comment 12627208 SethFromAstoria said: Quote: you are giving them an extra 40 yards if you just bend over and take the field goal. A td is vastly different than a fg. I'm just comparing the two scenarios for the sake of argument. Maybe the third runs yields a TD. Maybe the first run does. Either way, an incomplete pass before the two min warning is the worst case scenario, after a turnover of course.

a worst case scenario is scoring the td, having it taken off the board, not scoring on the next 2 and therefore taking minimal time off the clock and still having to kick the fg.

And amazingly enough considering how the Giants always are lucky and things work out perfectly, that's what happened!!

In comment 12627204 ron mexico said:

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1st and Goal (2:06) - Run for small gain. Two min warning 2nd and Goal (2:00) - Run for small gain. Pats take time out 3rd and Goal (1:45) - Run for no gain. 4th and Goal (1:05) - FG 1:00 - kickoff Pats get the ball with 50 seconds left

So a run for no gain is going to take 15 seconds?

also why would 10 seconds come off of the clock on a field goal? Amendola took a knee no time came off the clock...

clock does not start until ball is touched, Amendola took a knee meaning no time comes off

but a run definitely gets you to the two min warning.

All it takes is fighting for yards that always happen on those plays.

Or you run a sweep or a stretch play that will definitely do it.

Or you run a reverse to OBJ.

In comment 12627250 nygiants16 said:

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In comment 12627204 ron mexico said: Quote: 1st and Goal (2:06) - Run for small gain. Two min warning 2nd and Goal (2:00) - Run for small gain. Pats take time out 3rd and Goal (1:45) - Run for no gain. 4th and Goal (1:05) - FG 1:00 - kickoff Pats get the ball with 50 seconds left So a run for no gain is going to take 15 seconds? also why would 10 seconds come off of the clock on a field goal? Amendola took a knee no time came off the clock...

Yeah, a run is going to take 15 seconds......back to the drawing board.

In comment 12627258 ron mexico said:

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but a run definitely gets you to the two min warning. All it takes is fighting for yards that always happen on those plays. Or you run a sweep or a stretch play that will definitely do it. Or you run a reverse to OBJ.

Try counting six seconds.....

a 6 second run is unlikely. How would a failed run take more time than dropping back and throwing the ball to OBJ?

In comment 12627258 ron mexico said:

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but a run definitely gets you to the two min warning. All it takes is fighting for yards that always happen on those plays. Or you run a sweep or a stretch play that will definitely do it. Or you run a reverse to OBJ.

Ok lets go by your math...

They run the ball on first to get to the 2 minute warning...

2nd down 2 minutes they run the ball...5 seconds no more comes off the clock they call timeout...

3rd down 1 minute 55 seconds they run the ball again stuffed...play takes 5 seconds give a couple of seconds to get bodies and the ball set...so say 10 seconds runs off

Giants let the clcok go to 1 and call time out that is 45-50 seconds...

So you are at 1 minute 5 seconds...5 seconds for field goal

Pats get ball with 1 minute left...

In comment 12627258 ron mexico said:

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but a run definitely gets you to the two min warning.

If the run started at midfield and went for a TD it would.

From the 5 yard line it takes all about 2-3 seconds.

its a good theory except there wasnt 206 on first down it was 210...the giants COULDNT RUN THE CLOCK THAT LOW. going for a TD is a no brainer there, gives you a chance to go up 7 with worst case pats going down and tying the game. a FG puts you up 2 you lose with a FG. now if game was tied, conservative approach would be taken where a pats FG only ties the game, this wasnt the case. im sorry but i agree with coughlin giving ANY time even 1 minute to tom brady when a FG wins it, you are going to lose 9 out of 10, not good odds. ill be aggressive and give your team a better chance to win. end of the day OBJ dropped it and landon collins dropped a game ender. time management had NOTHING to do with THIS loss

only argument you could make is harris should have went down in bounds after catch...if he does this we win the game because then another timeout is wasted or it runs down to 2 minute and we can run three times and kick getting clock down to under a minute up 2

Run to the 2 minute warning....

Run, Pats timeout, 1:54 left.....

Run, time runs to 1:10, Giants call timeout to avoid 5 yard penalty....

Kick fg, 1:07 left.....

Kickoff not run back, so 1:07 left for Pats, no timeouts.....that's a difference of 40 seconds.....that's huge......

And who is to say, the Giants don't run it in with 3 consecutive runs?

To run would be the smart move.....if OBj makes that catch, you give Brady the ball with 2:01 and a timeout left, against this defense....no thanks...

In comment 12627344 Gmen108021 said:

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only argument you could make is harris should have went down in bounds after catch...if he does this we win the game because then another timeout is wasted or it runs down to 2 minute and we can run three times and kick getting clock down to under a minute up 2

This is obviously true as well. He should have given him self up instead of going out of bounds. I know its tough to fight momentum and easier said than done

it was 210 on clock you arent getting down to 2 minute...runs on goaline take 4-5 seconds unless its a big stretch play or reverse, neithert would have scored. and there is ZERO chance we are running it in, pats knew run was coming plus a BB team is disciplined, nobody giving up their gap. going to for TD was smart. i would 100% take 2 minutes only 1 timeout up 7...while yes it wasnt a gaurantee we stop brady, giving him a FG for win is to easy

yes i agree....i think his mo carried him out, but would have been HUGE if he dropped in bounds

not 2:10..........

IF you reach two minute you still give brady 120 to get a FG for win...its a no brainer to go for TD, i like they did it on first down to as it was prob least expected down to pass.
206-run
2 minte-run timeout NE
156-run
122-FG
118-kickoff
118-drive starts

In comment 12627434 Gmen108021 said:

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IF you reach two minute you still give brady 120 to get a FG for win...its a no brainer to go for TD, i like they did it on first down to as it was prob least expected down to pass. 206-run 2 minte-run timeout NE 156-run 122-FG 118-kickoff 118-drive starts

Yes.

...losing this game. That hasn't been the case in several of these gutshot type losses we've suffered.

The coaching staff did a fantastic job preparing and putting these players in position to win this game.

Bingo. The Harris play, although positive, was the one that changed the game, negatively. You simply cannot go out of bounds there. Starting at 2:14, we somehow ran three plays before the two minute warning, only forcing the Pats to call 1 time out. I'm not saying it lost us the game, but it lost us control of the game. At a certain point in every game, taking time off the clock becomes more important than yards or points. We have not learned that lesson.

In comment 12627204 ron mexico said:

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1st and Goal (2:06) - Run for small gain. Two min warning 2nd and Goal (2:00) - Run for small gain. Pats take time out 3rd and Goal (1:45) - Run for no gain. 4th and Goal (1:05) - FG 1:00 - kickoff Pats get the ball with 50 seconds left

If Harris could have just gone down after his catch at the 5, we could have basically run the clock down. I know he was pretty much going full speed and it would have been tough to get down in the field of play but I feel that is a play the Patriots would make...its the little things people.

go for a touchdown is by throwing the ball? Trying a running play is not the same as taking a knee. I'm not saying don't go for a touchdown there. I fully agree that I'd rather Brady need to go 100 yards for a TD in 2 minutes than 65 yards for a field goal in 2 minutes. I'm just saying that it's okay to try to score by running the ball and managing the clock at the same time cuz I'd certainly rather have Brady need to go 65 yards for a field goal in one minute than in two.

I saw Eli was quoted as saying the Pats were so loaded up that they "just weren't going to let us run the ball there." Come on, man! I've certainly seen us load up the box on goal line and still give up running touchdowns. Intent and execution isn't the same thing.

The Pats had one timeout left and the two minute warning when we had first down with 2:10 to go. The key was to get them to only force two plays using both those clock stoppages.

If you run with the first play, one of two things happens. Either you score with 2:05 on the clock or you don't score with 2:05 on the clock. You can't say the first option sucks if you were happy with Odell's TD catch for the time that we had it, so that's an okay scenario. If the second one happens, NE takes their last time out. On second down call whatever you want. If it's a running play that doesn't score the clock stops at 2 minutes, maybe a little less if the play takes longer than 5 seconds. If you call a pass play, just don't throw an interception. Either throw a high percentage pass to an open guy or take the sack. Either way you wind up with 3rd down and anywhere from 1:55 - 2:00 left in the game. Now, even if you only burn up 5 seconds on an incomplete pass, the ball gets set at 1:50 - 1:55 and you run the play clock down so that there's only 1:11 - 1:16 left on the clock. Spend 5 seconds on the field goal and now Brady has to go 65 yards in 1:09 instead of with 1:47 left.

You may have noticed that it took the Pats 1:41 to get in position for that field goal. 6 seconds left in the real game but if the Giant's had called a running play on 1st down, then the game had been over for 30 seconds already. People talk about the extra play we ran before the 2 minute warning as if it's a nothing, but the game only ran one play too long.

I know that there's no guaranteeing what might or might not have happened once the Pats got the ball back. With slightly more desperation due to a shorter clock, they might have called different plays and scored quicker. If they'd call the same plays and Collins simply catches the lame duck the game is over. However, by completely disregarding time as a factor in the decision making we wound up offering Brady the worst case of the scenarios described above. He only had to go 65 yards and had almost 2 minutes to do so.

You can say that it's Odell's fault because he should have caught the touchdown pass - fine. You can say it's Collins' fault because he should have made the execution - fine. But you can't do that and give the coaching staff a pass on time management. There's nothing that say going for a touchdown and using good clock management have to be mutually exclusive.

if not the most critical fan here on Coughlin's clock management this season.

But I have no tripes yesterday. Your first and most important goal there is getting in the endzone.

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that there was 2:10 left in the game when the Pats called their second time out. That's what I thought was the case, but there have been others saying that there was only 2:06. If it's the latter, than the above argument is only more meaningful.

he reason for to throw if because scoring the TD was the right call and trying to run it when a team is selling out on the run would be silly. you change the play as ELi correctly did to make a pass that should have won the game.

were to run twice & not score then score a running touchdown on 3rd down, or run or pass on 1st, run on 2nd & 3rd & kick FG on 4th. Here's why (and I haven't seen this brought up):

1. Score on the controversial play at 2:01. Need a 2-pt conversion AND Brady has 2 min warning (clock doesn't run on extra point or KO) + a time out to score a touchdown, then we still need to win in OT. We miss the 2-pt conversion & we lose (obviously I have a lot of faith in TB driving for a TD w/ 2 min & 2 TOs remaining - equal faith in Eli).

2. Score a running TD on 2nd down - same as above but no 2-min warning for Pats. Still 1:50 +/- with a timeout remaining. Fail to score on run means Pats still need to use TO.

3. Score a running TD on 3rd down (after #2 above) - maybe 1:45 left, they need a TD w/ no TOs left. Running TD because clock runs if we miss. BEST!

4. FG on 4th down after running for TD on 3rd. Maybe as good as #3, but they only need FG to win it & Pats have 1:05 to score.

Run or pass on 1st down - no difference, because BB wouldn't have called last TO to save 1-2 sec (save TO for 40 sec advantage).

So the failed pass on 1st down wasn't the big issue, it was passing on 2nd & 3rd down that was the biggest mistake.

Could be that Eli realized that with the audible. For a while I thought that Eli was really dumb, but now I realize not. Only gained Pats a couple of sec.

The Giants should have done a better job milking the clock when they got the ball with 4 minutes to go in the game. Eli was routinely snapping the ball with about 15 seconds left on the play clock. By the time the Giants got inside the ten with 210 to go in the game NE was gonna get the ball back with plenty of time.

It is what it is...and you also need to balance keeping the defense of kilter with running the clock down. I'm not sure what is more important. I guess we lost the game anyway...so running the clock may have been more important.

In comment 12627405 Doomster said:

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not 2:10..........

g

Agreed. The next play was the pass to OBJ where the clock stopped at 2:01. No way did that play take 9 seconds.

with 2:06 to go and they had 1 timeout the most important thing to do there is take away 1 of their opportunities to stop the clock. They had 1 timeout and the 2 minute warning. That play has got to be a run. Has to. You cant take a chance of the absolute worst case scenario there which we were unluck y to have happen. Where we run a play, and stop the clock ourselves before the 2 minute warning and now we give them another clock stoppage to add to the 2 they already had. Run the ball and you eliminate the absolute worst case scenario.

Once we didnt do that then we were forced to try and pass. At 2:01 either a run or pass would stop the clock at the 2 minute warning so you might as well try for the score.

On 3rd down again either pass or run is fine as long as you let your QB know that the worst case is an inclomplete pass so to try the pass and to take a sack if nothing is there. I really didnt like the rollout playcall on that one but thats another story.

are the worst power rushing team in the NFL. The last thing I wanted to see them do in that situation was to waste a down trying to run for no gain.