Kind of going back and forth on this with a Penn State grad friend who also worships Collins, but after re-watching the 2000 NFCCG against the vikings on Youtube, I'm not sure that the answer is actually Eli.
delivery. The 'whip' effect of his throwing motion would allow him to really fire passes with a lot of velocity, but also resulted in a long release. A lot was made of Fassel trying to correct Collins' 'hitch' in the 1999-2000 timeframe and it was a valid criticism of Collins up to that point.
Eli has a much cleaner, more conventional "quick release" and has never had trouble getting the ball downfield. He's also capable of putting some 'zip' on the ball too.
Hard to directly compare the two, they are certainly close in terms of arm strength, but in my view Eli is a far more gifted, pedigreed passer.
Collins had a very strong arm. Unfortunately, he had some serious accuracy and decision making issues.
A lot of it was caused by his tendency to get rattled.
But, as far as pure power, he had a stronger arm than Eli.
however he has a hitch in his delivery that causes the ball to sail and/or flutter. Collins didn't have that problem. It's hard to assess this, because Collins led offenses relied on the run game and passing was much more limited than offenses led by Eli. Collins was a very good pure thrower (in the mold of Jeff George), but did have accuracy issues. When Collins was off, he was really off; when he was on, he threw a fantastic long ball and threw darts for short passes. As a pure passer, I would have to give the nod to Collins.
In terms of raw arm strength, Collins obviously did.
all over...didn't matter if it was off his back foot or whatever. And while he wasn't very fast, he was a better pure athlete than Eli as well (IIRC he was selected in the MLB draft).
and videos of Collins, and man, did he have a lot of wasted motion in his delivery. Randall Cunningham-esque. It most certainly allowed him to get a lot of zip on the ball, and he could really sling it, but it was an awfully long release...
Aside from that playoff game against the Vikings...
If he got a clean pocket, he could carve up a defense. Rocket arm and, on a good day, terrific accuracy (despite the comments above).
Collins, however, didn't have 1/5 Eli's toughness. His game would suffer if he got hit. He also lacked Eli's pocket awareness. Eli's very, very good at moving around in the pocket to find a lane and avoid pressure. It's an underrated part of his game. People say he's not "mobile" because he's not a scrambler or a runner. But he's quite mobile within the pocket.
Also re Collins v Eli on the issue of accuracy: Eli's had to fight a tendency toward wildness throughout his career -- sort of like a pitcher who has a terrific fastball but sometimes struggles with control. He can make every throw, he can get the ball into unbelievably tight windows, but you still see him throw a "ball" fpr an incompletion now and then when a "strike" would be an easy completion.
But Eli's pretty much the same whether he's hit or not. Collins' game would deteriorate if he got hit.
Eli wins in football smarts.
And Eli wins by a million in being unflappable. Remember "Strahan" writing in his book about seeing Collins before Super Bowl XXXV and he knew they were in trouble. Meanwhile, Eli wins two Super Bowl MVPs.
threw the ball it looked like he had a cannon on the side of his arm firing perfect spirals 60 yards. Maybe best arm I've seen in general. WHo is better really?
I remember this throw like it was yesterday. One of the nicest ever.
Eli wins in football smarts.
And Eli wins by a million in being unflappable. Remember "Strahan" writing in his book about seeing Collins before Super Bowl XXXV and he knew they were in trouble. Meanwhile, Eli wins two Super Bowl MVPs.
Wait...Collins played in a Super Bowl? I don't remember that. Learn something new every day.
threw the ball it looked like he had a cannon on the side of his arm firing perfect spirals 60 yards. Maybe best arm I've seen in general. WHo is better really?
I remember this throw like it was yesterday. One of the nicest ever.
threw the ball it looked like he had a cannon on the side of his arm firing perfect spirals 60 yards. Maybe best arm I've seen in general. WHo is better really?
I remember this throw like it was yesterday. One of the nicest ever.
Kerry Rocket
German, biatch...;)
haha lesson learned. All I had to do was take 2 seconds and look up. I just thought of it immediately and got excited to watch it and post it. Well done sir.
haha lesson learned. All I had to do was take 2 seconds and look up. I just thought of it immediately and got excited to watch it and post it. Well done sir.
Haha...glad you have a good humor about this. And I'm glad there are others, who remember that play.
haha lesson learned. All I had to do was take 2 seconds and look up. I just thought of it immediately and got excited to watch it and post it. Well done sir.
Haha...glad you have a good humor about this. And I'm glad there are others, who remember that play.
of course man...and yes I am glad to see someone with the quick reference post that so quickly. Excellent work. I have that pass imprinted in my mind and I remember watching it over and over in awe of how long it was in the air, how perfect the spiral was, and how it didn't look like it was particularly difficult for him to make the throw. Definitely one of my favorite plays thay I think of off the top of my head. Plus a flea flicker? How many flea flickers have the NY Giants run? 2? 3?
Collins had a great arm, threw a great ball. He could zing it
and he could feather it. When he was on a roll he was great. But when he got in a funk he couldn't snap out of it. He had that goofy look (like "the Cruiser" in Stripes) and you knew they were dead meat. I think that's the look Strahan is referring to
Collins was our taste of our first real QB since Simms
after having to endure Dave Brown, Kent Graham, and Danny Kannel. His arm strength was ridiculous. Eli throws a pretty deep ball, but KC has much more velocity on it. He can sling it in the snow with no issue.
Mechanics would have been a major problem for Collins in today's game. So many offenses are based on timing and quick throws...his mechanics were usually pretty poor in those situations. It's a big reason the Giants were terrible in the red zone for years. Think about the TD to Harris on Sunday. Collins rarely made that type of throw well. The most memorable example was the fade to Shockey against Philly, but that was just a jump ball. It wasn't a fade over the shoulder that came out before the QB even touched the laces.
Eli lets the mechanics slip now and then, but when they're on he can really deliver the ball on time.
however he has a hitch in his delivery that causes the ball to sail and/or flutter. Collins didn't have that problem. It's hard to assess this, because Collins led offenses relied on the run game and passing was much more limited than offenses led by Eli. Collins was a very good pure thrower (in the mold of Jeff George), but did have accuracy issues. When Collins was off, he was really off; when he was on, he threw a fantastic long ball and threw darts for short passes. As a pure passer, I would have to give the nod to Collins.
Eli has a hitch? I think Eli's motion is really, really refined. Very smooth.
If anyone had a hitch, it was Collins. As I said, Fassel worked out the kinks, but it wasn't smooth by any means. Take a look at Collins when he first arrived in the NFL. That motion was not pretty.
RE: Collins was our taste of our first real QB since Simms
after having to endure Dave Brown, Kent Graham, and Danny Kannel. His arm strength was ridiculous. Eli throws a pretty deep ball, but KC has much more velocity on it. He can sling it in the snow with no issue.
Totally true. This is why I always have a positive image of Kerry Collins. He was a player who actually came here and played better than expected and was so entertaining to watch with his perfect throws and long passes. Compared to what we had previously it was like a revelation.
threw the ball it looked like he had a cannon on the side of his arm firing perfect spirals 60 yards. Maybe best arm I've seen in general. WHo is better really?
I remember this throw like it was yesterday. One of the nicest ever.
Kerry Rocket
I knew the throw you linked before I even clicked.
Incredible arm, given a clean pocket (very important caveat, of course).
Anyone remember the reaction BBI and other fans had...
RC02XX : 3:17 pm : link : reply
when the Giants decided to sign the reformed drunk QB accused of being a racist?
Good times!
I remember my reaction even better. I just got done playing a baseball game and a bunch of us went out for beers to this place called Vinnie's Sardine House.
I see Collins picture on ESPN and I said to the group, "I wonder what team was stupid enough to sign him" and then ESPN did that graphic thing where they superimposed either a jersey or hat on him and it was the Giants! Man, I was pissed.
He actually did pretty well here and revived his career. Being in Charlotte, I saw him fall almost right in front of me. At that time, I was hanging out with a couple of players like Jason Peter, Chris Hetherington, Frank Garcia and Ken Walter and they would tell me what a drunk ass Collins was. Usually while we were out getting hammered too!
so Jason Peter wasn't an asshole like his brother, I take it?
Patrick Jeffers. He had bounced around the league a bit and never gotten much of a chance to play, landed in Carolina and had a tremendous season.....then blew out his knee the next preseason, which pretty much ended his career.
He made some throws that were incredible! He made some pretty bad decisions and by all accounts did not have a very high football IQ but there wasn't a throw he couldnt make on the field.
one elite ability was to throw it like no other. Eli just has all the other ones aside from running out of the pocket, and earlier in his career a lack of pinpoint accuracy.
However he can zip it with nearly all of em and his accuracy has never been bad, and now it's quite good. Oh he also has a face that people dislike. And a voice that people dislike a bit. Boring haircut...
That's pretty much it. Otherwise he's the greatest
RE: Collins was our taste of our first real QB since Simms
after having to endure Dave Brown, Kent Graham, and Danny Kannel. His arm strength was ridiculous. Eli throws a pretty deep ball, but KC has much more velocity on it. He can sling it in the snow with no issue.
However the "strongest" arm is just one aspect of being a QB. IMO accuracy is more important, look at Montana, Peyton, and Brady. Being a good QB takes the complete package, as long as your arm is "NFL strong enough" you're ok.
However the "strongest" arm is just one aspect of being a QB. IMO accuracy is more important, look at Montana, Peyton, and Brady. Being a good QB takes the complete package, as long as your arm is "NFL strong enough" you're ok.
Jeff George made it look easy although a crappy QB...
a wider variety of throws well. But Collins had the better fastball. He had his moments like that perfect passer rating win against the Colts. Collins went 23-29 for 366 yards and 4 TDs to get that perfect rating. That statline was padded by that flea flicker involving Amani. But watch the video, Collins makes a very accurate "55yds traveled in the air" bomb look easy with that arm. Eli's capable of way more touch and accuracy.
he felt like the first franchise QB in 100 years. I remember he came in and soon threw a 300yd game, the first since Phil Simms.
So they had Collins, got Tiki involved and then changed the uniforms...it was a totally new team. Fun to be a fan again after what felt like a very very long time, although it had been only about 4 years that they were really non-competitive.
However the "strongest" arm is just one aspect of being a QB. IMO accuracy is more important, look at Montana, Peyton, and Brady. Being a good QB takes the complete package, as long as your arm is "NFL strong enough" you're ok.
The thing with that mediocre list was that those guys all had a shitty work ethic. Collins put in the time - he was just too limited in other ways, which prevented him from being more than he was, an average QB with a highly above average arm.
He was extremely immobile (this compared to Simms), he had a case of the jitters (IIRC, he had his jaw broken in Carolina so maybe he never left that memory behind), and he was guilty of trying to force the issue too often (instead of just getting rid of the ball).
With a little extra from a few of these intangibles, he could have been a much better player.
I agree with that - Collins never got over that cheap shot from the biggest scumbag in football at the time. Any QB can be rattled, but Collins rattled more easily than any I've ever seen, and when he got rattled his entire game would fall apart. When he got good protection, he was terrific.
Jeff George has become somewhat of a punchline but he doesn't belong in the same universe as bums like Jamarcus or Leaf. George actually had an NFL career and plenty of moments as a relevant player.
who also had a canon and could fling it down the field from all types of release points. When discussing the best QBs of all time (Peyton, Brady, Montana, Marino, etc.)...I think he had the biggest arm out of all of them.
Are why I don't discuss football with anyone. No offense TTH, but holy shit who brings that up as a debate point and who really cares ? I remember as a teenager having the Mike Tyson vs. Bruce Lee debates, this is similarly stupid and I would assume something reserved for teenagers or the dull witted. You aren't a dolt, so what gives?
and asked about Collins arm. It was great he said, but sometimes in practice he'd make bad throws. Jeff George, he said, never made a bad throw in practice and had, by far, the strongest arm he'd ever seen.
Man had a cannon.
I'd say Collins had the better pure arm.
But Eli takes the prize, obviously, of better NFL QB.
The answer was never Eli, it's not really that close. Collins had arguably the strongest arm in the game.
Crybaby, spoiled brat with a brain the size of a pea but he could make some of the prettiest throws you've ever seen.
Eli has a much cleaner, more conventional "quick release" and has never had trouble getting the ball downfield. He's also capable of putting some 'zip' on the ball too.
Hard to directly compare the two, they are certainly close in terms of arm strength, but in my view Eli is a far more gifted, pedigreed passer.
A lot of it was caused by his tendency to get rattled.
But, as far as pure power, he had a stronger arm than Eli.
He was pretty accurate when he was on his game, although he had sure his bad days too
Crazy to think that he never threw for more than 22 TDs in a season with all that arm talent.
Link - ( New Window )
Collins, however, didn't have 1/5 Eli's toughness. His game would suffer if he got hit. He also lacked Eli's pocket awareness. Eli's very, very good at moving around in the pocket to find a lane and avoid pressure. It's an underrated part of his game. People say he's not "mobile" because he's not a scrambler or a runner. But he's quite mobile within the pocket.
Also re Collins v Eli on the issue of accuracy: Eli's had to fight a tendency toward wildness throughout his career -- sort of like a pitcher who has a terrific fastball but sometimes struggles with control. He can make every throw, he can get the ball into unbelievably tight windows, but you still see him throw a "ball" fpr an incompletion now and then when a "strike" would be an easy completion.
But Eli's pretty much the same whether he's hit or not. Collins' game would deteriorate if he got hit.
Looks like someone's been hacked.
And Eli wins by a million in being unflappable. Remember "Strahan" writing in his book about seeing Collins before Super Bowl XXXV and he knew they were in trouble. Meanwhile, Eli wins two Super Bowl MVPs.
I remember this throw like it was yesterday. One of the nicest ever.
Kerry Rocket
And Eli wins by a million in being unflappable. Remember "Strahan" writing in his book about seeing Collins before Super Bowl XXXV and he knew they were in trouble. Meanwhile, Eli wins two Super Bowl MVPs.
Wait...Collins played in a Super Bowl? I don't remember that. Learn something new every day.
I remember this throw like it was yesterday. One of the nicest ever.
Kerry Rocket
German, biatch...;)
He was pretty accurate when he was on his game, although he had sure his bad days too
I agree - I liked Collins. Eli is so much better of course, but they got solid production from Collins for a few years.
So, so glad I was wrong about that one...
Quote:
threw the ball it looked like he had a cannon on the side of his arm firing perfect spirals 60 yards. Maybe best arm I've seen in general. WHo is better really?
I remember this throw like it was yesterday. One of the nicest ever.
Kerry Rocket
German, biatch...;)
haha lesson learned. All I had to do was take 2 seconds and look up. I just thought of it immediately and got excited to watch it and post it. Well done sir.
Haha...glad you have a good humor about this. And I'm glad there are others, who remember that play.
Quote:
haha lesson learned. All I had to do was take 2 seconds and look up. I just thought of it immediately and got excited to watch it and post it. Well done sir.
Haha...glad you have a good humor about this. And I'm glad there are others, who remember that play.
of course man...and yes I am glad to see someone with the quick reference post that so quickly. Excellent work. I have that pass imprinted in my mind and I remember watching it over and over in awe of how long it was in the air, how perfect the spiral was, and how it didn't look like it was particularly difficult for him to make the throw. Definitely one of my favorite plays thay I think of off the top of my head. Plus a flea flicker? How many flea flickers have the NY Giants run? 2? 3?
Eli lets the mechanics slip now and then, but when they're on he can really deliver the ball on time.
Eli has a hitch? I think Eli's motion is really, really refined. Very smooth.
If anyone had a hitch, it was Collins. As I said, Fassel worked out the kinks, but it wasn't smooth by any means. Take a look at Collins when he first arrived in the NFL. That motion was not pretty.
Totally true. This is why I always have a positive image of Kerry Collins. He was a player who actually came here and played better than expected and was so entertaining to watch with his perfect throws and long passes. Compared to what we had previously it was like a revelation.
I will say this, Collins through one of the best deep balls I've ever seen.
Good times!
Interception machine.
What a dumb statement!
Collins was a good QB and had a great arm!
Kerry Collins slinging a loaf - ( New Window )
I remember this throw like it was yesterday. One of the nicest ever.
Kerry Rocket
I knew the throw you linked before I even clicked.
Incredible arm, given a clean pocket (very important caveat, of course).
Quote:
Collins was the Sanchize of his era
What a dumb statement!
Collins was a good QB and had a great arm!
Don't feed the troll
RC02XX : 3:17 pm : link : reply
when the Giants decided to sign the reformed drunk QB accused of being a racist?
Good times!
I remember my reaction even better. I just got done playing a baseball game and a bunch of us went out for beers to this place called Vinnie's Sardine House.
I see Collins picture on ESPN and I said to the group, "I wonder what team was stupid enough to sign him" and then ESPN did that graphic thing where they superimposed either a jersey or hat on him and it was the Giants! Man, I was pissed.
He actually did pretty well here and revived his career. Being in Charlotte, I saw him fall almost right in front of me. At that time, I was hanging out with a couple of players like Jason Peter, Chris Hetherington, Frank Garcia and Ken Walter and they would tell me what a drunk ass Collins was. Usually while we were out getting hammered too!
Quote:
In comment 12632397 EVERY4YEARS said:
Quote:
Collins was the Sanchize of his era
What a dumb statement!
Collins was a good QB and had a great arm!
Don't feed the troll
MFSD wasn't thinking when I responded! Thanks!
Said that he could have listened to everyone and stayed on the wrong path - and that he was truly sorry for the things that happened in college.
But then, Jason was sort of an ass, but more in the young, drunk guy way. Out of that group, he was the wild card after several beers were drunk.
I don't remember the outcome.
Fuck it, I'm throwing it downfield - ( New Window )
However he can zip it with nearly all of em and his accuracy has never been bad, and now it's quite good. Oh he also has a face that people dislike. And a voice that people dislike a bit. Boring haircut...
That's pretty much it. Otherwise he's the greatest
+1
Kerry Collins was a really good QB for us.
However the "strongest" arm is just one aspect of being a QB. IMO accuracy is more important, look at Montana, Peyton, and Brady. Being a good QB takes the complete package, as long as your arm is "NFL strong enough" you're ok.
However the "strongest" arm is just one aspect of being a QB. IMO accuracy is more important, look at Montana, Peyton, and Brady. Being a good QB takes the complete package, as long as your arm is "NFL strong enough" you're ok.
Jeff George made it look easy although a crappy QB...
But, whenever Collins had to roll out, he couldn't hit a receiver if he was the only one on the field....
So they had Collins, got Tiki involved and then changed the uniforms...it was a totally new team. Fun to be a fan again after what felt like a very very long time, although it had been only about 4 years that they were really non-competitive.
However the "strongest" arm is just one aspect of being a QB. IMO accuracy is more important, look at Montana, Peyton, and Brady. Being a good QB takes the complete package, as long as your arm is "NFL strong enough" you're ok.
The thing with that mediocre list was that those guys all had a shitty work ethic. Collins put in the time - he was just too limited in other ways, which prevented him from being more than he was, an average QB with a highly above average arm.
He was extremely immobile (this compared to Simms), he had a case of the jitters (IIRC, he had his jaw broken in Carolina so maybe he never left that memory behind), and he was guilty of trying to force the issue too often (instead of just getting rid of the ball).
With a little extra from a few of these intangibles, he could have been a much better player.
Jeff George has become somewhat of a punchline but he doesn't belong in the same universe as bums like Jamarcus or Leaf. George actually had an NFL career and plenty of moments as a relevant player.
I know Tyson is not in shape, but the other guy is dead.