I'd rather have DRC but I still wanted to retain Linval. Guy never missed a game and was a solid run clogger, it would be nice if the GMEN could re-sign some of their draft picks. Too much dicking around in FA.
In March, 2014, Beason signed a 3 year contract with signing bonus and guaranteed money of about $10.5 million.
In March, 2014, the Vikings signed Linval to a 5 year contract with signing bonus and guaranteed money of $12.5 million.
So, for only about $2 million more of signing bonus and guaranteed money, LJ could have been signed for 2 years more than Beason. We could have wound up with BOTH DRC and LJ and no Beason.
I have said many times before that I cannot see how Reese keeps his job after letting a terrific young player in LJ go and keeping Beason instead and giving Beason such a silly huge contract considering how injury-prone Beason was and he had lost his starting MLB job to Chase Blackburn.
Cruz and Nicks were in line for extensions ahead of signing Linval early, going back a few years. JPP was probably also a sizable consideration given the belief in his potential at the time, and the cost of a franchise DE.
NYG was able to avoid Nicks' injuries and let him go, secured Cruz rather affordably, but chose to sign DRC (whom Reese admitted they were in on early and heavily) instead of Linval in crunch time.
Any moron could've manipulated cap space to sign him... there was no need to choose between LJ, Beason and DRC... We simply let him go cause we didn't think he was worth the money... A wrong move by FO..
The only other reason I can think off was that they thought Hankins was better and why have 2 DT who have similar skill set.. I think letting go was a wrong move..
Any moron could've manipulated cap space to sign him... there was no need to choose between LJ, Beason and DRC... We simply let him go cause we didn't think he was worth the money... A wrong move by FO..
The only other reason I can think off was that they thought Hankins was better and why have 2 DT who have similar skill set.. I think letting go was a wrong move..
Think you nailed it. Poor judgement by whoever makes these calls. The rest is just an attempt to cover it up.
That would probably be good for the lead on the Giants.
It would be nice to have Joseph and Hankins as two good young defensive tackles.
Just heard Joseph described on Sirius as "unblockable" and the most underrated DT in the league. He's on ESPN's list of most improved players.
To be fair to Reese, he played well for the Giants but not as good as he's playing now. The Vikes offered him a big contract. What did they see that Giants didn't.
Reese's Pieces: During his career with the Giants, LJ
So only defensive linemen with pass rushing skills have value? Ever hear of gap control or is everything from you so one way Giants you're blind to his value to the Giants and now Minny?
What's the point of the draft if you hit with your high picks on good players like Joseph and Prince and then you don't sign them when their rookie contracts are up.
Might as well trade your draft picks for players.
RE: IMO Reese signed Beason instead of Linval Joseph.
In March, 2014, Beason signed a 3 year contract with signing bonus and guaranteed money of about $10.5 million.
In March, 2014, the Vikings signed Linval to a 5 year contract with signing bonus and guaranteed money of $12.5 million.
So, for only about $2 million more of signing bonus and guaranteed money, LJ could have been signed for 2 years more than Beason. We could have wound up with BOTH DRC and LJ and no Beason.
I have said many times before that I cannot see how Reese keeps his job after letting a terrific young player in LJ go and keeping Beason instead and giving Beason such a silly huge contract considering how injury-prone Beason was and he had lost his starting MLB job to Chase Blackburn.
What's the point of the draft if you hit with your high picks on good players like Joseph and Prince and then you don't sign them when their rookie contracts are up.
Might as well trade your draft picks for players.
watch,he will give kuhn a 2nd contract against all odds.
That would probably be good for the lead on the Giants.
It would be nice to have Joseph and Hankins as two good young defensive tackles.
Just heard Joseph described on Sirius as "unblockable" and the most underrated DT in the league. He's on ESPN's list of most improved players.
To be fair to Reese, he played well for the Giants but not as good as he's playing now. The Vikes offered him a big contract. What did they see that Giants didn't.
and he is only 26yrs old
What has not been mentioned here is that we also had to use our third
round pick in the draft to replace Joseph at DT. We took Bromley, if he works out, then this decision is somewhat mitigated. If he does not, then we really screwed up letting a potential all pro go in Joseph and will still have a huge hole at DT going forward.
round pick in the draft to replace Joseph at DT. We took Bromley, if he works out, then this decision is somewhat mitigated. If he does not, then we really screwed up letting a potential all pro go in Joseph and will still have a huge hole at DT going forward.
Actually, the Giants used a #2 pick for Hankins which was Joseph's replacement at the1-tech and Bromley was slated for the #3. With so little depth, Bromley not goes to the 1. So that's a 2nd and 3rd rounder to replace Joseph.
Not all his fault since he can't predict injuries, but maybe he should have a rule against signing or drafting a player who has already had a serious injury.
That would have saved him from Beason and Kenny Phillips and I don't know who else.
(Oops, just broke my own rule. Phillips was a key contributor on a Super Bowl team so his pick was not wasted.)
A lot of these moves get made for reasons we fans have no idea about. We don't know who's causing trouble in the locker room, or who the team thinks is on drugs, or who has three girlfriends threatening to call his wife; or who hit on the owner's daughter, or slept with a coach's wife, or even with a coach.
Jamie Williams told me in an interview that the Giants kept Malcolm Scott and Zeke Mowatt and let him go when they were all rookies because they knew one of the tight ends was involved with drugs, and they thought it was him. It was Malcolm Scott. Jamie Williams had a nice NFL career as a receiving TE. Malcolm Scott? Well, he didn't a nice NFL career.
That story taught me two things: 1) Teams make personnel moves for reasons we don't know about. 2) Some of those reasons are bullshit.
His contract was 6.03M guaranteed, which included 4.4M signing bonus.
Joseph contract was 12.5M guaranteed. Only 7 DT are received more guaranteed money than Joseph. Is he that good - no.
You do not pay that type money for a run stopping DT when you have a player next to him in Hankins who is the same player
Stop it.. stop trying to make sense.. You cant tell me that the Giants drafted Joseph to replace Cofield when Cofield was going to be overpaid and then tell me that the Giants drafted Hankins because they knew they wouldnt be able to keep Joseph with JPP, Prince, Cruz, Eli and at that time possibly Nicks needing new deals. so they decided not to overpay for a run stuffing DT..
NO dont tell me that.. dont make a logical rational argument.. Stop it..
They have found their mia Culpa. These are the same people who griped about the Rolle and Canty signing (that brought us a superbowl). Who griped when Smith was released. Who say he gave us two superbowls ..".BUT." The devil is in those "Buts".
They will parrot at some level that it's a crap shoot and on the one instance that the crap; shoot doesn't come out right, they will jump, magnify, amplify, defile with an almost glee...:"see here's my proof". While they ignore the much more important fact that a failed no.1 can doom a franchise....And Reese doesn;'t miss on no. 1's and his record there is almost astonishing.
These are the folks who scour the draft picks and spend their energies documenting the failure Reese has had in the third round...while they conveniently ignore teh fact that he doesn't miss on the first round and everyone misses on the third.
So let's argue the merits of Joseph and if he is the one free agent that Reese let go wrongfully, let's hang the SOB.
They have found their mia Culpa. These are the same people who griped about the Rolle and Canty signing (that brought us a superbowl). Who griped when Smith was released. Who say he gave us two superbowls ..".BUT." The devil is in those "Buts".
They will parrot at some level that it's a crap shoot and on the one instance that the crap; shoot doesn't come out right, they will jump, magnify, amplify, defile with an almost glee...:"see here's my proof". .
Lol, yeah ok. From the fella preaching cap theories with more holes than Swiss cheese. The Giants won the Super Bowl in 2011/12 with the QB making a ton. Keep preaching
Defensive player of the week last week. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A GIANT DT MADE DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE WEEK?
Again...he's now playing nose in a 3/4. It appears to be true that he is much better suited to his current role than as a 1-tech in a 4/3. Add in that run-stuffers aren't all that hard to find for relatively little money (depending on availability) and it adds up to you don't pay a player who is merely adequate in your system $31.5 MM, with a $12.5 MM guarantee.
Defensive player of the week last week. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A GIANT DT MADE DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE WEEK?
Again...he's now playing nose in a 3/4. It appears to be true that he is much better suited to his current role than as a 1-tech in a 4/3. Add in that run-stuffers aren't all that hard to find for relatively little money (depending on availability) and it adds up to you don't pay a player who is merely adequate in your system $31.5 MM, with a $12.5 MM guarantee.
Defensive player of the week last week. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A GIANT DT MADE DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE WEEK?
Again...he's now playing nose in a 3/4. It appears to be true that he is much better suited to his current role than as a 1-tech in a 4/3. Add in that run-stuffers aren't all that hard to find for relatively little money (depending on availability) and it adds up to you don't pay a player who is merely adequate in your system $31.5 MM, with a $12.5 MM guarantee.
Again someone else making sense.. stop it !!!!
Last i checked, when you dominate a gap it opens up other defenders. Are we prepare to let Hankins walk too? How many draft choices have been allocated to the DT position? Think that has any bearing on the lack of depth on the roster when you continually draft DT?
no need for $ for Nicks
Beason would be almost useless
JPP re-signing would be delayed
Cruz contract would not be that bad
Linval would slowly get better every year and transform from a good player to very good...
He probably would have found a way to re-sign Linval Joseph.
Wonder why the Vikings rave about him so much if they overpaid him?
Clearly Reese misunderstood what a "dominant" DT is worth and the Giants are paying the price now for not paying the contract price for a "dominant" DT
Wonder why the Vikings rave about him so much if they overpaid him?
Clearly Reese misunderstood what a "dominant" DT is worth and the Giants are paying the price now for not paying the contract price for a "dominant" DT
Reese for Dummy of the Year!!!
He wasn't dominant or even close to it in the Giants' 4/3. It seems that you like to make up facts that support your "argument."
BMac: I'm addressing the point that LJ is overpaid
It's not an apples to apples comparison when you consider the Vikes run a scheme that best suits LJ's strengths and weaknesses.
When you compute player value, you project future contributions, scheme fit, locker room fit, etc, and NYG valued LJ in the $4-5M ballpark with a pile of other bigger fish to fry in their own org. Put yourself back in 2012-13 when the decisions were made, not now with the incredible benefit of hindsight.
You can't keep everyone, LJ was prioritized behind the rest as a 4-3 DT. It is what it is, why continue to dwell on the past ...
JonC: As a 4-3 tackle and only a very young player,
LJ averaged 55 tackles per year after his rookie season and 3 sacks per year. What other young DT matched that production. Let me know if you find one because I couldn't and that's why I compared LJ to Suh, the dominant DT but with more experience.
My point is that LJ was a very good 4-3 DT with the Giants.
In plain stupidity, Reese preferred to sign an often-injured Beason and letting LJ walk.
If Reese had not stupidly re-signed Beason, Reese could have signed both LJ and DRC.
I'm not going to argue this, because there's a pile of info that you
nor I have any clue about behind the scenes. Living in the past accomplishes nothing now.
I'm merely laying out the decision made from the NYG view in terms that made it to me at the time.
They hold Hankins in much higher regard and expect to keep him past his rookie deal. The money not spent on LJ IS better spent on DEs and CBs in a 4-3, and that's a fact. They need to improve their decision making, and injuries ruining careers, have conspired against NYG, we should all be smart enough to agree.
It's a pass happy league
We will see Linval in person on the frigid field in Minnesota
In March, 2014, the Vikings signed Linval to a 5 year contract with signing bonus and guaranteed money of $12.5 million.
So, for only about $2 million more of signing bonus and guaranteed money, LJ could have been signed for 2 years more than Beason. We could have wound up with BOTH DRC and LJ and no Beason.
I have said many times before that I cannot see how Reese keeps his job after letting a terrific young player in LJ go and keeping Beason instead and giving Beason such a silly huge contract considering how injury-prone Beason was and he had lost his starting MLB job to Chase Blackburn.
I think the FO was also looking ahead to what JPP would cost. Did you ever hear that suggestion Jon?
NYG was able to avoid Nicks' injuries and let him go, secured Cruz rather affordably, but chose to sign DRC (whom Reese admitted they were in on early and heavily) instead of Linval in crunch time.
The only other reason I can think off was that they thought Hankins was better and why have 2 DT who have similar skill set.. I think letting go was a wrong move..
The only other reason I can think off was that they thought Hankins was better and why have 2 DT who have similar skill set.. I think letting go was a wrong move..
It would be nice to have Joseph and Hankins as two good young defensive tackles.
Just heard Joseph described on Sirius as "unblockable" and the most underrated DT in the league. He's on ESPN's list of most improved players.
To be fair to Reese, he played well for the Giants but not as good as he's playing now. The Vikes offered him a big contract. What did they see that Giants didn't.
By contrast, for the same years Ndamukong Suh played as LJ did for the Giants (2011-2013), Suh averaged 38 tackles per season and 6 sacks.
So, LJ had significantly more tackles per season than Suh while Suh averaged 6 sacks per season to LJ's 3 per season.
Still cannot understand how Reese let LJ go while keeping Beason.
Look at it this way: for the total amount of $2 million, we could have kept LJ for FIVE seasons instead of Beason's THREE seasons.
IMO absolute pure stupidity on Reese's part.
It's a pass happy league
So only defensive linemen with pass rushing skills have value? Ever hear of gap control or is everything from you so one way Giants you're blind to his value to the Giants and now Minny?
Might as well trade your draft picks for players.
In March, 2014, the Vikings signed Linval to a 5 year contract with signing bonus and guaranteed money of $12.5 million.
So, for only about $2 million more of signing bonus and guaranteed money, LJ could have been signed for 2 years more than Beason. We could have wound up with BOTH DRC and LJ and no Beason.
I have said many times before that I cannot see how Reese keeps his job after letting a terrific young player in LJ go and keeping Beason instead and giving Beason such a silly huge contract considering how injury-prone Beason was and he had lost his starting MLB job to Chase Blackburn.
and that sucks
Might as well trade your draft picks for players.
watch,he will give kuhn a 2nd contract against all odds.
It would be nice to have Joseph and Hankins as two good young defensive tackles.
Just heard Joseph described on Sirius as "unblockable" and the most underrated DT in the league. He's on ESPN's list of most improved players.
To be fair to Reese, he played well for the Giants but not as good as he's playing now. The Vikes offered him a big contract. What did they see that Giants didn't.
and he is only 26yrs old
Actually, the Giants used a #2 pick for Hankins which was Joseph's replacement at the1-tech and Bromley was slated for the #3. With so little depth, Bromley not goes to the 1. So that's a 2nd and 3rd rounder to replace Joseph.
Them don't spend a 2nd round pick on him
Just stupid management on this one
That would have been a young and athletic DL with Bromley rotating at DT.
Instead we have Beason on IR with a big contract.
That would have saved him from Beason and Kenny Phillips and I don't know who else.
(Oops, just broke my own rule. Phillips was a key contributor on a Super Bowl team so his pick was not wasted.)
Jamie Williams told me in an interview that the Giants kept Malcolm Scott and Zeke Mowatt and let him go when they were all rookies because they knew one of the tight ends was involved with drugs, and they thought it was him. It was Malcolm Scott. Jamie Williams had a nice NFL career as a receiving TE. Malcolm Scott? Well, he didn't a nice NFL career.
That story taught me two things: 1) Teams make personnel moves for reasons we don't know about. 2) Some of those reasons are bullshit.
Them don't spend a 2nd round pick on him
Just stupid management on this one
This. DRC has nothing to do with Joseph. Reese manages the cap like shit and always has.
Joseph contract was 12.5M guaranteed. Only 7 DT are received more guaranteed money than Joseph. Is he that good - no.
You do not pay that type money for a run stopping DT when you have a player next to him in Hankins who is the same player
Joseph contract was 12.5M guaranteed. Only 7 DT are received more guaranteed money than Joseph. Is he that good - no.
You do not pay that type money for a run stopping DT when you have a player next to him in Hankins who is the same player
Stop it.. stop trying to make sense.. You cant tell me that the Giants drafted Joseph to replace Cofield when Cofield was going to be overpaid and then tell me that the Giants drafted Hankins because they knew they wouldnt be able to keep Joseph with JPP, Prince, Cruz, Eli and at that time possibly Nicks needing new deals. so they decided not to overpay for a run stuffing DT..
NO dont tell me that.. dont make a logical rational argument.. Stop it..
Its just easier to say Reese screwed up !!!!
STOP IT.. Your making sense..
I dont always think irrationally..
But when I do.. Its on BBI...
Quote:
To a affordable contract which is what he got
Them don't spend a 2nd round pick on him
Just stupid management on this one
This. DRC has nothing to do with Joseph. Reese manages the cap like shit and always has.
Except for next year when the Giants have like 38 million in cap space ??
They will parrot at some level that it's a crap shoot and on the one instance that the crap; shoot doesn't come out right, they will jump, magnify, amplify, defile with an almost glee...:"see here's my proof". While they ignore the much more important fact that a failed no.1 can doom a franchise....And Reese doesn;'t miss on no. 1's and his record there is almost astonishing.
These are the folks who scour the draft picks and spend their energies documenting the failure Reese has had in the third round...while they conveniently ignore teh fact that he doesn't miss on the first round and everyone misses on the third.
So let's argue the merits of Joseph and if he is the one free agent that Reese let go wrongfully, let's hang the SOB.
yeah that was worth 12 million...
They will parrot at some level that it's a crap shoot and on the one instance that the crap; shoot doesn't come out right, they will jump, magnify, amplify, defile with an almost glee...:"see here's my proof". .
Lol, yeah ok. From the fella preaching cap theories with more holes than Swiss cheese. The Giants won the Super Bowl in 2011/12 with the QB making a ton. Keep preaching
Quote:
To a affordable contract which is what he got
Them don't spend a 2nd round pick on him
Just stupid management on this one
This. DRC has nothing to do with Joseph. Reese manages the cap like shit and always has.
Reese does not manage the cap. Get your info straight for once.
Again...he's now playing nose in a 3/4. It appears to be true that he is much better suited to his current role than as a 1-tech in a 4/3. Add in that run-stuffers aren't all that hard to find for relatively little money (depending on availability) and it adds up to you don't pay a player who is merely adequate in your system $31.5 MM, with a $12.5 MM guarantee.
Quote:
Defensive player of the week last week. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A GIANT DT MADE DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE WEEK?
Again...he's now playing nose in a 3/4. It appears to be true that he is much better suited to his current role than as a 1-tech in a 4/3. Add in that run-stuffers aren't all that hard to find for relatively little money (depending on availability) and it adds up to you don't pay a player who is merely adequate in your system $31.5 MM, with a $12.5 MM guarantee.
Again someone else making sense.. stop it !!!!
Quote:
In comment 12638243 Tark10 said:
Quote:
Defensive player of the week last week. WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME A GIANT DT MADE DEFENSIVE PLAYER OF THE WEEK?
Again...he's now playing nose in a 3/4. It appears to be true that he is much better suited to his current role than as a 1-tech in a 4/3. Add in that run-stuffers aren't all that hard to find for relatively little money (depending on availability) and it adds up to you don't pay a player who is merely adequate in your system $31.5 MM, with a $12.5 MM guarantee.
Again someone else making sense.. stop it !!!!
Last i checked, when you dominate a gap it opens up other defenders. Are we prepare to let Hankins walk too? How many draft choices have been allocated to the DT position? Think that has any bearing on the lack of depth on the roster when you continually draft DT?
no need for $ for Nicks
Beason would be almost useless
JPP re-signing would be delayed
Cruz contract would not be that bad
Linval would slowly get better every year and transform from a good player to very good...
He probably would have found a way to re-sign Linval Joseph.
Clearly Reese misunderstood what a "dominant" DT is worth and the Giants are paying the price now for not paying the contract price for a "dominant" DT
Reese for Dummy of the Year!!!
Clearly Reese misunderstood what a "dominant" DT is worth and the Giants are paying the price now for not paying the contract price for a "dominant" DT
Reese for Dummy of the Year!!!
He wasn't dominant or even close to it in the Giants' 4/3. It seems that you like to make up facts that support your "argument."
If the Vikings don't think they overpaid, then why are someBBIers saying he's overpaid?
When you compute player value, you project future contributions, scheme fit, locker room fit, etc, and NYG valued LJ in the $4-5M ballpark with a pile of other bigger fish to fry in their own org. Put yourself back in 2012-13 when the decisions were made, not now with the incredible benefit of hindsight.
You can't keep everyone, LJ was prioritized behind the rest as a 4-3 DT. It is what it is, why continue to dwell on the past ...
My point is that LJ was a very good 4-3 DT with the Giants.
In plain stupidity, Reese preferred to sign an often-injured Beason and letting LJ walk.
If Reese had not stupidly re-signed Beason, Reese could have signed both LJ and DRC.
I'm merely laying out the decision made from the NYG view in terms that made it to me at the time.
They hold Hankins in much higher regard and expect to keep him past his rookie deal. The money not spent on LJ IS better spent on DEs and CBs in a 4-3, and that's a fact. They need to improve their decision making, and injuries ruining careers, have conspired against NYG, we should all be smart enough to agree.