I think his comments were right in some of those circumstances. They're wrong if you just remember a caricature of Obama took the side of criminals against the police and ignore the substance of what he said in full. His attempt to communicate very nuanced points during those incidents did not end up doing much good, mostly because as a country we dont much enjoy nuanced points.
Not about Obama but more to your view on people not paying attention to nuanced points, I have to deal with that on a daily basis as I try to train young analysts to see beyond what they read and what information they see. It's rather disheartening that even after so much training and coaching, more than half the people cannot go beyond the immediate facts to look deeper into issues/topics that they are examining.
Obama likes to stick his nose in issues that fit his political agenda. Â
We know that. If you share his political views then you don't see anything wrong with it. If you don't, then you are going to criticize him for it.
There are a couple of Muslim Americans on the recently released Rhodes Scholar list, why doesn't he invite them to the WH? Instead he invited someone who re-assembled a clock in a briefcase, this doesn't really advance social progressivism or racial equality.
he was trying to make by blowing this kid up without seeming to gather all the facts and let it play out a bit first. Sounds like a bullshit excuse to me. I'm an Obama supporter but this didn't reflect well on him, and still doesn't.
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I think if the President just waited for facts before rushing to judgment or commentary and "picking sides" (always the same side it seems in these racially charged incidents) he'd be better off.
After the facts are known he wants to invite Ahmed to the White House, at least he's doing so with a firm understanding of the situation, not a rush to judgment which makes him seem divisive to his detractors (and probably what endears him to a lot of his supporters).
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
You weren't around for the Rodney King verdict and aftermath, then?
it seems to me, he went out of his way to ignore the nuanced points of that incident.
Really? Taking the cop's version of the story as true, a black man comes home from a trip, has trouble getting into his house and his neighbor calls the police. Policeman show up and the man is agitated already. Police come to believe 100% that he is not breaking in because he lives there, so he goes to leave. Still agitated man is barking at the cop. Cop arrests him for disorderly conduct after a warning. [Gates's version was much worse for the cop]
Totally unnecessary arrest. "Stupid" IMO. People get to vent without being arrested for disorderly conduct, especially on the porch of their own home after their neighbor called the cop on them as a black man purportedly trying to break into a home.
Yes, Obama divided the country by fomenting racism Â
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
it seems to me, he went out of his way to ignore the nuanced points of that incident.
Really? Taking the cop's version of the story as true, a black man comes home from a trip, has trouble getting into his house and his neighbor calls the police. Policeman show up and the man is agitated already. Police come to believe 100% that he is not breaking in because he lives there, so he goes to leave. Still agitated man is barking at the cop. Cop arrests him for disorderly conduct after a warning. [Gates's version was much worse for the cop]
Totally unnecessary arrest. "Stupid" IMO. People get to vent without being arrested for disorderly conduct, especially on the porch of their own home after their neighbor called the cop on them as a black man purportedly trying to break into a home.
Unlike you, even Obama had to back off on his "stupid" comment once the nuances of the case came out.
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
Who says Travon Martin wasnt killed due to race?
The Department of Justice and evidence from the case.
Unlike you, even Obama had to back off on his "stupid" comment once the nuances of the case came out.
Did he? This article suggests no, but maybe he did subsequently.
In any event, Im entitled to a different opinion than Obama. I think the cops shouldnt arrest someone under those circumstances. They should just apologize for the hassle (good faith as it was), and walk away. And that's if you buy the cop's story. If you buy Gates's version, it was beyond merely stupid. Link - ( New Window )
The Department of Justice and evidence from the case.
The DOJ said no such thing. DOJ said:
Quote:
“Although the department has determined that this matter cannot be prosecuted federally, it is important to remember that this incident resulted in the tragic loss of a teenager’s life,” said Acting Assistant Attorney General Vanita Gupta of the Civil Rights Division. “Our decision not to pursue federal charges does not condone the shooting that resulted in the death of Trayvon Martin and is based solely on the high legal standard applicable to these cases.”
After a thorough and independent investigation into the facts surrounding the shooting, federal investigators determined that there is insufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt a violation of these statutes. Accordingly, the investigation into this incident has been closed. This decision is limited strictly to the department’s inability to meet the high legal standard required to prosecute the case under the federal civil rights statutes; it does not reflect an assessment of any other aspect of the shooting.
The evidence goes both ways. He wasnt convicted, but that just means that there was reasonable doubt. Link - ( New Window )
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
But Travon Martin was killed due to racism and actions of a dickbag racist fuck.
RE: RE: RE: RE: In that incident with Professor Gates Â
Unlike you, even Obama had to back off on his "stupid" comment once the nuances of the case came out.
Did he? This article suggests no, but maybe he did subsequently.
In any event, Im entitled to a different opinion than Obama. I think the cops shouldnt arrest someone under those circumstances. They should just apologize for the hassle (good faith as it was), and walk away. And that's if you buy the cop's story. If you buy Gates's version, it was beyond merely stupid. Link - ( New Window )
we are talking about nuances. He admitted he drew a conclusion before drawing a conclusion (not knowing the nuances)and the later said he regretted the comments.
"On July 22, President Barack Obama said about the incident, "I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in that. But I think it's fair to say, number one, any of us would be pretty angry; number two, that the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home, and, number three, what I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there's a long history in this country of African Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately." Law enforcement organizations and members objected to Obama's comments and criticized his handling of the issue. In the aftermath, Obama stated that he regretted his comments and hoped that the situation could become a "teachable moment"."
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
But Travon Martin was killed due to racism and actions of a dickbag racist fuck.
Ronnie, the way some people act on this board, prejudice and bias does not exist at all in America.
And some people see it around every corner, through every door... Â
He said he didnt know if racism was a factor, but separate and apart from the HLG incident that there is a history of people of color being stopped disproportionately. So he drew no conclusion and stated something that I would just hope is not too contested -- that people of color get stopped a lot more than whites. Nuance.
In the same statement he said the cop acted stupidly. My take on the facts is that the cop arrested a guy for mouthing off after the cop came to investigate whether the 60 year old black man was breaking into what turned out to be his own house. That's a fucking stupid arrest if you ask me. I did not sleep safer knowing that Henry Gates was off the streets that night. I dont think you need much nuance on that point.
Even with what we know today I agree with what Obama said. I would be pissed if the cops were preventing me from entering my own home.
If the cops saw someone breaking into your house and did nothing, you would have been even more pissed after you were robbed. When he proved his identity as the homeowner, they let him go in. It would have ended there if he did not go off on them. What happened after that is a matter of debate whether the conduct met the definition of disorderly conduct.
The cop came on a tip from a neighbor. Do you think it was right for Â
Even with what we know today I agree with what Obama said. I would be pissed if the cops were preventing me from entering my own home.
If the cops saw someone breaking into your house and did nothing, you would have been even more pissed after you were robbed. When he proved his identity as the homeowner, they let him go in. It would have ended there if he did not go off on them. What happened after that is a matter of debate whether the conduct met the definition of disorderly conduct.
I mostly agree. It's pretty doubtful that yelling at someone from your porch could ever meet the standard of D.C. though. And even if it arguably could, the cop should have just walked away. If we need to be arresting people for yelling at someone from their porch, it need not be 60 year old men who were just hassled as a potential B&E suspect at their own home.
Arrest under Massachusetts "idle and disorderly person" statute was unlawful under Massachusetts law, where defendant was arrested for yelling, screaming, swearing and generally causing a disturbance but, though the yelling was undoubtedly loud enough to attract the attention of other guests in hotel, it did not rise to level of "riotous commotion" or "public nuisance." U.S. v. Pasqualino, D.Mass.1991, 768 F.Supp. 13.
...
Defendant who did not physically resist his arrest arising out of a domestic violence incident could not be convicted of disorderly conduct based solely on his loud and angry tirade, which included profanities, directed at police officers as he was being escorted to police cruiser, even if spectators gathered to watch defendant; defendant did not make any threats or engage in violence, and his speech did not constitute fighting words. Com. v. Mallahan (2008) 72 Mass.App.Ct. 1103, 889 N.E.2d 77, 2008 WL 2404550.
...
Defendant's conduct, namely, flailing his arms and shouting at police, victim of recent assault, or both, after being told to leave area by police, did not amount to "violent or tumultuous behavior" within scope of disorderly conduct statute, absent any claim that defendant's protestations constituted threat of violence, or any evidence that defendant's flailing arms were anything but physical manifestation of his agitation or that noise and commotion caused by defendant's behavior was extreme. Com. v. Lopiano (2004) 805 N.E.2d 522, 60 Mass.App.Ct. 723.
Middle citation in particular is devastating to a DC charge in my opinion.
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
But Travon Martin was killed due to racism and actions of a dickbag racist fuck.
Ronnie, the way some people act on this board, prejudice and bias does not exist at all in America.
I have seen you make that assertion many times, but I don't recall anyone ever saying that on this board. Disagreeing with you on specific incidents does not mean you believe these things don't exist. It is a false conclusion that you constantly insert into many debates.
I can understand him being upset and perhaps saying some things he shouldn't have said. The bottom line is I don't believe he should have been arrested. I can also understand why people believe Obama should have waited to comment.
I thought it was the latter with no charges filed. If true, is that really that big of a deal considering all of the threats to our schools we've seen come to fruition?
I thought it was the latter with no charges filed. If true, is that really that big of a deal considering all of the threats to our schools we've seen come to fruition?
Mohammed? Questioned at school in office. He was then led out of school in handcuffs, went to juvy where he was finger printed, had a mug shot taken, and was questioned more before release. Not sure if that counts as "arrested". He was not charged.
I thought it was the latter with no charges filed. If true, is that really that big of a deal considering all of the threats to our schools we've seen come to fruition?
Mohammed? Questioned at school in office. He was then led out of school in handcuffs, went to juvy where he was finger printed, had a mug shot taken, and was questioned more before release. Not sure if that counts as "arrested". He was not charged.
All standard procedure when you call in a bomb threat, get caught with lookalike weapon, pull a fire alarm, etc... at school.
that to err on the side of caution to make sure the school was safe seems ok in my book. If that means detaining someone, then releasing them with no charges, so be it. I don't care what ethnicity the individual is. If my kids were in that school I would expect the authorities to complete their due diligence.
I still don't understand how that can be absolutely construed as outright racist behavior by individuals who are trusted with protecting us.
I thought it was the latter with no charges filed. If true, is that really that big of a deal considering all of the threats to our schools we've seen come to fruition?
Mohammed? Questioned at school in office. He was then led out of school in handcuffs, went to juvy where he was finger printed, had a mug shot taken, and was questioned more before release. Not sure if that counts as "arrested". He was not charged.
All standard procedure when you call in a bomb threat, get caught with lookalike weapon, pull a fire alarm, etc... at school.
Did he do those things? Even the police said it was obvious it wasnt a bomb. So unless he said something suggestive, I'd argue pretty strongly that he put a clock in a pencil case and did not have a lookalike weapon. He certainly wasnt charged.
whether or not it was actually a bomb right there on-site. Did they call in a possible bomb? They didn't bring in bomb experts/dogs?
So then it was more than likely known it wasn't a bomb--but was it an asshole kid with an agenda? Seems like it give his current location. So then he should be treated as a possible bomb hoaxer.
He should go fuck himself. And yes, while I support the President overall, he has been landing on the sides of some issues I can't support.
I thought it was the latter with no charges filed. If true, is that really that big of a deal considering all of the threats to our schools we've seen come to fruition?
Mohammed? Questioned at school in office. He was then led out of school in handcuffs, went to juvy where he was finger printed, had a mug shot taken, and was questioned more before release. Not sure if that counts as "arrested". He was not charged.
All standard procedure when you call in a bomb threat, get caught with lookalike weapon, pull a fire alarm, etc... at school.
Did he do those things? Even the police said it was obvious it wasnt a bomb. So unless he said something suggestive, I'd argue pretty strongly that he put a clock in a pencil case and did not have a lookalike weapon. He certainly wasnt charged.
It is enough to be considered a lookalike weapon.
A kid can paint a water gun black, and when police get it in their hands, they immediately know it's not real. Does not change the outcome. It's prohibited on school property.
To ignore this fact over and over, that police should just know it was fake and therefore just let it go, shows a complete lack of understand for how zero tolerance, schools, and even police operate.
I don't understand why that point just can not seem to get through to some of you.
that to err on the side of caution to make sure the school was safe seems ok in my book. If that means detaining someone, then releasing them with no charges, so be it. I don't care what ethnicity the individual is. If my kids were in that school I would expect the authorities to complete their due diligence.
I still don't understand how that can be absolutely construed as outright racist behavior by individuals who are trusted with protecting us.
Respectfully, that's a non sequitor. They quickly determined at the school that it was not a bomb. I've seen no suggestion that the kid said it was a bomb. There was no evacuation or bomb squad called in. I dont think anyone has much criticism for the school or initial police investigation. But how precisely was anyone more safe by the police, THEREAFTER, cuffing, printing, and mug shotting the kid at a another location?
And Im leaving race aside. I have no idea whether race played a material role.
A zero tolerance policy imposes automatic punishment for infractions of a stated rule, with the intention of eliminating undesirable conduct. Zero-tolerance policies forbid persons in positions of authority from exercising discretion or changing punishments to fit the circumstances subjectively; they are required to impose a pre-determined punishment regardless of individual culpability, extenuating circumstances, or history. This pre-determined punishment need not be severe, but it is always meted out.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Was he arrested or detained? Â
A kid can paint a water gun black, and when police get it in their hands, they immediately know it's not real. Does not change the outcome. It's prohibited on school property.
To ignore this fact over and over, that police should just know it was fake and therefore just let it go, shows a complete lack of understand for how zero tolerance, schools, and even police operate.
I don't understand why that point just can not seem to get through to some of you.
Your point isnt lost on me. But at what point does a lookalike stop being a lookalike? What if a kid painted a supersoaker red? Still a lookalike? That's my point. I think only an idiot would think that thing was a bomb. And if he was really trying to make it look like a bomb, he'd put something there that looked like a fake explosive. The fact that someone else may have overreacted to a clock in a box does not mean that the clock was necessarily a lookalike bomb.
whether or not it was actually a bomb right there on-site. Did they call in a possible bomb? They didn't bring in bomb experts/dogs?
So then it was more than likely known it wasn't a bomb--but was it an asshole kid with an agenda? Seems like it give his current location. So then he should be treated as a possible bomb hoaxer.
He should go fuck himself. And yes, while I support the President overall, he has been landing on the sides of some issues I can't support.
You're all over the map. The cops knew it wasn't a bomb when they looked at the case. They didn't know he was an asshole at the time and that shouldn't be relevant. I can see punishing the kid but the handcuffs, etc were over the top.
has not been able to communicate what happened from the time police arrived and led to Ahmed's arrest due to privacy issues.
The most I have found is in early reports that Ahmed became uncooperative and evasive in his responses to the policemen. they felt he was not being forthcoming with what it was, why he brought it, and his intentions.
Until we see the file unsealed (which the family is stonewalling) you can't really say what led to the arrest or detainment - whatever you want to call it.
My assumption (my opinion) is Ahmed by being non-compliant/forthcoming with the details pushed the police to the steps they took, but I tend to believe the majority of people don't act in a case like this without provocation. I could be wrong
I believe the teacher 100% did the right thing, the principal also 100% did the right thing, not sure about the police, but even if they didn't do the 100% right thing, it doesn't seem too egregious (until we see the facts).
Not about Obama but more to your view on people not paying attention to nuanced points, I have to deal with that on a daily basis as I try to train young analysts to see beyond what they read and what information they see. It's rather disheartening that even after so much training and coaching, more than half the people cannot go beyond the immediate facts to look deeper into issues/topics that they are examining.
There are a couple of Muslim Americans on the recently released Rhodes Scholar list, why doesn't he invite them to the WH? Instead he invited someone who re-assembled a clock in a briefcase, this doesn't really advance social progressivism or racial equality.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
I think if the President just waited for facts before rushing to judgment or commentary and "picking sides" (always the same side it seems in these racially charged incidents) he'd be better off.
After the facts are known he wants to invite Ahmed to the White House, at least he's doing so with a firm understanding of the situation, not a rush to judgment which makes him seem divisive to his detractors (and probably what endears him to a lot of his supporters).
Quote:
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
You weren't around for the Rodney King verdict and aftermath, then?
Really? Taking the cop's version of the story as true, a black man comes home from a trip, has trouble getting into his house and his neighbor calls the police. Policeman show up and the man is agitated already. Police come to believe 100% that he is not breaking in because he lives there, so he goes to leave. Still agitated man is barking at the cop. Cop arrests him for disorderly conduct after a warning. [Gates's version was much worse for the cop]
Totally unnecessary arrest. "Stupid" IMO. People get to vent without being arrested for disorderly conduct, especially on the porch of their own home after their neighbor called the cop on them as a black man purportedly trying to break into a home.
Quote:
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
Quote:
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
Who says Travon Martin wasnt killed due to race?
Quote:
it seems to me, he went out of his way to ignore the nuanced points of that incident.
Really? Taking the cop's version of the story as true, a black man comes home from a trip, has trouble getting into his house and his neighbor calls the police. Policeman show up and the man is agitated already. Police come to believe 100% that he is not breaking in because he lives there, so he goes to leave. Still agitated man is barking at the cop. Cop arrests him for disorderly conduct after a warning. [Gates's version was much worse for the cop]
Totally unnecessary arrest. "Stupid" IMO. People get to vent without being arrested for disorderly conduct, especially on the porch of their own home after their neighbor called the cop on them as a black man purportedly trying to break into a home.
Quote:
In comment 12642294 Deej said:
Quote:
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
Who says Travon Martin wasnt killed due to race?
The Department of Justice and evidence from the case.
Hilary Clinton's tweet was horrendous:
"Assumptions and fear don't keep us safe..."
Implicating the school/ police of being bigots and that race or religion should be placed over safety.
Did he? This article suggests no, but maybe he did subsequently.
In any event, Im entitled to a different opinion than Obama. I think the cops shouldnt arrest someone under those circumstances. They should just apologize for the hassle (good faith as it was), and walk away. And that's if you buy the cop's story. If you buy Gates's version, it was beyond merely stupid.
Link - ( New Window )
The Department of Justice and evidence from the case.
OK, you're one of six people on the planet who believe Treyvon would have been shot if he were white.
Who says Travon Martin wasnt killed due to race?
The Department of Justice and evidence from the case.
The DOJ said no such thing. DOJ said:
After a thorough and independent investigation into the facts surrounding the shooting, federal investigators determined that there is insufficient evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt a violation of these statutes. Accordingly, the investigation into this incident has been closed. This decision is limited strictly to the department’s inability to meet the high legal standard required to prosecute the case under the federal civil rights statutes; it does not reflect an assessment of any other aspect of the shooting.
The evidence goes both ways. He wasnt convicted, but that just means that there was reasonable doubt.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
But Travon Martin was killed due to racism and actions of a dickbag racist fuck.
Quote:
Unlike you, even Obama had to back off on his "stupid" comment once the nuances of the case came out.
Did he? This article suggests no, but maybe he did subsequently.
In any event, Im entitled to a different opinion than Obama. I think the cops shouldnt arrest someone under those circumstances. They should just apologize for the hassle (good faith as it was), and walk away. And that's if you buy the cop's story. If you buy Gates's version, it was beyond merely stupid. Link - ( New Window )
"On July 22, President Barack Obama said about the incident, "I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in that. But I think it's fair to say, number one, any of us would be pretty angry; number two, that the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home, and, number three, what I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there's a long history in this country of African Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately." Law enforcement organizations and members objected to Obama's comments and criticized his handling of the issue. In the aftermath, Obama stated that he regretted his comments and hoped that the situation could become a "teachable moment"."
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 12642294 Deej said:
Quote:
I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
But Travon Martin was killed due to racism and actions of a dickbag racist fuck.
Ronnie, the way some people act on this board, prejudice and bias does not exist at all in America.
So here we are once again... In the middle.
He said he didnt know if racism was a factor, but separate and apart from the HLG incident that there is a history of people of color being stopped disproportionately. So he drew no conclusion and stated something that I would just hope is not too contested -- that people of color get stopped a lot more than whites. Nuance.
In the same statement he said the cop acted stupidly. My take on the facts is that the cop arrested a guy for mouthing off after the cop came to investigate whether the 60 year old black man was breaking into what turned out to be his own house. That's a fucking stupid arrest if you ask me. I did not sleep safer knowing that Henry Gates was off the streets that night. I dont think you need much nuance on that point.
Why does racism need to be brought up? Because the cop wouldn't have come had the tip been that a white man was trying to forcefully open the door?
Racism exists, but to instigate just to make a point is simply counterproductive to the cause.
Is it racist for me to say that a white man or Asian man would just politely hand the officer his proof of residence and none of this had to happen?
So here we are once again... In the middle.
Actually, biases do exist everywhere. It makes people VERY uncomfortable to acknowledge.
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Even with what we know today I agree with what Obama said. I would be pissed if the cops were preventing me from entering my own home.
If the cops saw someone breaking into your house and did nothing, you would have been even more pissed after you were robbed. When he proved his identity as the homeowner, they let him go in. It would have ended there if he did not go off on them. What happened after that is a matter of debate whether the conduct met the definition of disorderly conduct.
I mostly agree. It's pretty doubtful that yelling at someone from your porch could ever meet the standard of D.C. though. And even if it arguably could, the cop should have just walked away. If we need to be arresting people for yelling at someone from their porch, it need not be 60 year old men who were just hassled as a potential B&E suspect at their own home.
Strikes me as a stupid arrest.
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Defendant who did not physically resist his arrest arising out of a domestic violence incident could not be convicted of disorderly conduct based solely on his loud and angry tirade, which included profanities, directed at police officers as he was being escorted to police cruiser, even if spectators gathered to watch defendant; defendant did not make any threats or engage in violence, and his speech did not constitute fighting words. Com. v. Mallahan (2008) 72 Mass.App.Ct. 1103, 889 N.E.2d 77, 2008 WL 2404550.
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Defendant's conduct, namely, flailing his arms and shouting at police, victim of recent assault, or both, after being told to leave area by police, did not amount to "violent or tumultuous behavior" within scope of disorderly conduct statute, absent any claim that defendant's protestations constituted threat of violence, or any evidence that defendant's flailing arms were anything but physical manifestation of his agitation or that noise and commotion caused by defendant's behavior was extreme. Com. v. Lopiano (2004) 805 N.E.2d 522, 60 Mass.App.Ct. 723.
Middle citation in particular is devastating to a DC charge in my opinion.
It is not a crime to yell at a cop from your porch.
What is 'disorderly conduct' in Massachusetts? - ( New Window )
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In comment 12642321 giant24 said:
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In comment 12642294 Deej said:
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I think Obama's jumping into this one was the least helpful, for a lot of the reasons you all just pointed out. I just dont think he's embarrassed over it. It's just such a small thing.
I disagree. giving credence to the lie that Travon Martin and Mike Brown were killed due to racism and police brutality towards blacks with the "could be my son" comments, sending delegates to Mike Brown's funeral, meeting and encouraging the protesters in Ferguson and never denouncing the lies after his own DOJ found no evidence of racism in these instances has led to the false creation of BLM and has divided this country unlike anything i have seen in my lifetime.
But Travon Martin was killed due to racism and actions of a dickbag racist fuck.
Ronnie, the way some people act on this board, prejudice and bias does not exist at all in America.
Mohammed? Questioned at school in office. He was then led out of school in handcuffs, went to juvy where he was finger printed, had a mug shot taken, and was questioned more before release. Not sure if that counts as "arrested". He was not charged.
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I thought it was the latter with no charges filed. If true, is that really that big of a deal considering all of the threats to our schools we've seen come to fruition?
Mohammed? Questioned at school in office. He was then led out of school in handcuffs, went to juvy where he was finger printed, had a mug shot taken, and was questioned more before release. Not sure if that counts as "arrested". He was not charged.
All standard procedure when you call in a bomb threat, get caught with lookalike weapon, pull a fire alarm, etc... at school.
I still don't understand how that can be absolutely construed as outright racist behavior by individuals who are trusted with protecting us.
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In comment 12642495 B in ALB said:
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I thought it was the latter with no charges filed. If true, is that really that big of a deal considering all of the threats to our schools we've seen come to fruition?
Mohammed? Questioned at school in office. He was then led out of school in handcuffs, went to juvy where he was finger printed, had a mug shot taken, and was questioned more before release. Not sure if that counts as "arrested". He was not charged.
All standard procedure when you call in a bomb threat, get caught with lookalike weapon, pull a fire alarm, etc... at school.
Did he do those things? Even the police said it was obvious it wasnt a bomb. So unless he said something suggestive, I'd argue pretty strongly that he put a clock in a pencil case and did not have a lookalike weapon. He certainly wasnt charged.
So then it was more than likely known it wasn't a bomb--but was it an asshole kid with an agenda? Seems like it give his current location. So then he should be treated as a possible bomb hoaxer.
He should go fuck himself. And yes, while I support the President overall, he has been landing on the sides of some issues I can't support.
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In comment 12642513 Deej said:
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In comment 12642495 B in ALB said:
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I thought it was the latter with no charges filed. If true, is that really that big of a deal considering all of the threats to our schools we've seen come to fruition?
Mohammed? Questioned at school in office. He was then led out of school in handcuffs, went to juvy where he was finger printed, had a mug shot taken, and was questioned more before release. Not sure if that counts as "arrested". He was not charged.
All standard procedure when you call in a bomb threat, get caught with lookalike weapon, pull a fire alarm, etc... at school.
Did he do those things? Even the police said it was obvious it wasnt a bomb. So unless he said something suggestive, I'd argue pretty strongly that he put a clock in a pencil case and did not have a lookalike weapon. He certainly wasnt charged.
It is enough to be considered a lookalike weapon.
A kid can paint a water gun black, and when police get it in their hands, they immediately know it's not real. Does not change the outcome. It's prohibited on school property.
To ignore this fact over and over, that police should just know it was fake and therefore just let it go, shows a complete lack of understand for how zero tolerance, schools, and even police operate.
I don't understand why that point just can not seem to get through to some of you.
I still don't understand how that can be absolutely construed as outright racist behavior by individuals who are trusted with protecting us.
Respectfully, that's a non sequitor. They quickly determined at the school that it was not a bomb. I've seen no suggestion that the kid said it was a bomb. There was no evacuation or bomb squad called in. I dont think anyone has much criticism for the school or initial police investigation. But how precisely was anyone more safe by the police, THEREAFTER, cuffing, printing, and mug shotting the kid at a another location?
And Im leaving race aside. I have no idea whether race played a material role.
It is enough to be considered a lookalike weapon.
A kid can paint a water gun black, and when police get it in their hands, they immediately know it's not real. Does not change the outcome. It's prohibited on school property.
To ignore this fact over and over, that police should just know it was fake and therefore just let it go, shows a complete lack of understand for how zero tolerance, schools, and even police operate.
I don't understand why that point just can not seem to get through to some of you.
Your point isnt lost on me. But at what point does a lookalike stop being a lookalike? What if a kid painted a supersoaker red? Still a lookalike? That's my point. I think only an idiot would think that thing was a bomb. And if he was really trying to make it look like a bomb, he'd put something there that looked like a fake explosive. The fact that someone else may have overreacted to a clock in a box does not mean that the clock was necessarily a lookalike bomb.
So then it was more than likely known it wasn't a bomb--but was it an asshole kid with an agenda? Seems like it give his current location. So then he should be treated as a possible bomb hoaxer.
He should go fuck himself. And yes, while I support the President overall, he has been landing on the sides of some issues I can't support.
You're all over the map. The cops knew it wasn't a bomb when they looked at the case. They didn't know he was an asshole at the time and that shouldn't be relevant. I can see punishing the kid but the handcuffs, etc were over the top.
The most I have found is in early reports that Ahmed became uncooperative and evasive in his responses to the policemen. they felt he was not being forthcoming with what it was, why he brought it, and his intentions.
Until we see the file unsealed (which the family is stonewalling) you can't really say what led to the arrest or detainment - whatever you want to call it.
My assumption (my opinion) is Ahmed by being non-compliant/forthcoming with the details pushed the police to the steps they took, but I tend to believe the majority of people don't act in a case like this without provocation. I could be wrong
I believe the teacher 100% did the right thing, the principal also 100% did the right thing, not sure about the police, but even if they didn't do the 100% right thing, it doesn't seem too egregious (until we see the facts).
I see it. What if he didnt break a rule?