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NFT: Knicks at Heat (in progress)

Deej : 11/23/2015 7:51 pm
13-10 Knicks thru 5:30. Wade with 2 fouls.
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And jus tin case you want to bring up +-  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 1:55 pm : link
Lance Thomas is -30 for the season

Kyle oquinn is -8 for the season

I don't have a dog in this fight  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/24/2015 1:57 pm : link
but comparing Lance Thomas' offense to Kyle O'Quinn's offense is only half the conversation.

It has to be about defense with both of them. Not that hard to consider that Thomas is probably better defensively and that's why.
RE: I don't have a dog in this fight  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:00 pm : link
In comment 12642487 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
but comparing Lance Thomas' offense to Kyle O'Quinn's offense is only half the conversation.

It has to be about defense with both of them. Not that hard to consider that Thomas is probably better defensively and that's why.


What about +-?

Win shares?

How about defensive win shares?
The major problem I see is  
Carl in CT : 11/24/2015 2:00 pm : link
We are not a very athletic team. I think if you look at our team we are bellow average in athletic ability at the 1, 2, 3, and 5 spots. I know Melo has his strengths but at a 3 there are many more athletic players. Once you put this all together we will have trouble with those type of teams like Miami.
In every conceivable stat  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:01 pm : link
Kyle Oquinn is better than Lance Thomas..
RE: The major problem I see is  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:02 pm : link
In comment 12642494 Carl in CT said:
Quote:
We are not a very athletic team. I think if you look at our team we are bellow average in athletic ability at the 1, 2, 3, and 5 spots. I know Melo has his strengths but at a 3 there are many more athletic players. Once you put this all together we will have trouble with those type of teams like Miami.


That is why you go big and use your strength against the oppposing team, you do not go small with a team that is not built to go small...
how about this stat  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:03 pm : link
Defensive plus minus...

Lance thomas -1.8 Kyle Oquinn +4.4
Not a huge fan of +/-  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/24/2015 2:04 pm : link
but sure, show me the win share numbers. That would be interesting. Though O'Quinn hasn't played enough to have rate stats to compare really.

O'Quinn is a plodder, Thomas can guard multiple positions and on the perimeter. Seems pretty basic to me. And I like O'Quinn. I think he's a good piece to have in certain situations should they need to go big and physical.

I am not huge fan of plus minus either truthfully  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:07 pm : link
But it is a huge difference..

Lance Thomas -30
Oquinn -8

Win shares Thomas .3 Oquinn .4

Defensive win shares Thomas .1 Oquinn .3

Per thomas 8.9 Oquinn 16.7

Win shares per 48 Thomas .55 Oquinn 1.03

Some more since Thomas plays the 4 he should be able to rebound  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:10 pm : link
Offensive rebound percentage: Thomas 2.8 Oquinn 13.1

Defensive rebound Thomas 7.3 Oquinn 21.6

Total rebound Thomas Thomas 5 Oquinn 17.3
Now we know why the Knicks have been  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:11 pm : link
getting killed on the offensive glass recently when the Knicks go to the bench...

Thomas at the 4 is killing the rebounding numbers...he is a horrible rebounder..
Going small with Thomas at the 4  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:13 pm : link
is a net negative, add Williams as the 3 and it is killing the Knicks because neither are good rebounders...

You cna get away with it with Melo at the 4 because he is a banger and can grab boards but with Thomas there the Knicks will continue to get killed on the glass...
Not sure what to tell you  
Aspano! : 11/24/2015 2:13 pm : link
Perhaps it was the game after against the Lakers then? And this is from the Raptors game, right after that:

O'Quinn looks like
GiantsUA : 11/10/2015 8:47 pm : link
he was out late.
KP - heating up, Melo filling it up, Grant going to school

The Toronto game is also where Amundson got his first minutes of the year.

It has nothing to do with "facts." Looking at stats blindly while not watching the game doesn't get you anywhere. Against Toronto KOQ got 11 minutes because he did nothing and was replaced in the second half by Seraphin.

Seraphin has shown in limited minutes after being benched that he could adjust, and his minutes started to increase again. Amundson did the same. O'Quinn hasn't.

Do I think Fisher should stick with him so he straightens himself out? Yes, I do. Or at the very least, bring in Seraphin instead, rather than bringing in back of the bench guys like Amundson. But it is pretty clear that Fisher will take a guy out as soon as he sees him playing like crap. And O'Quinn hasn't done much of anything since then.
Lakers game he did not play well  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:17 pm : link
Toronto game and the game after

he had 6 and 6 with a couple of blocks...

then all of sudden his minutes were cut for Lou Amundson....

I watch every single game every minute, and there is absolutely no reason for Lou Amundson to be getting more minutes than Kyle Oquinn, none...

He was benched for a guy who played hard for Fisher last season and that is why he was benched, those are fisher's words not mine...he said that Amundson and thomas are getting minutes because they played hard for him last season...it is the dumbest thing i have every heard...

How do you cut a guys minutes  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:19 pm : link
after he had 2 games back to back playing 12 minutes average 6 boards and 6 points on 65% shooting?

not to mention the start of the seaosn where he was easily the best big on the court...

It makes no sense that Oquinn is not getting minutes...
And comparing  
Aspano! : 11/24/2015 2:19 pm : link
Thomas at the 4 with O'Quinn at the 4 is ludicrous. Thomas is in for man to man defense since he can guard the 2-4 positions. Does O'Quinn have that responsibility?

And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
Perhaps  
Aspano! : 11/24/2015 2:22 pm : link
Fisher is too faithful to those guys. That might very well be the case, and that is a fault. But Fisher has shown to have a pretty short leash (at least with the newer guys), and KOQ hasn't done much since sitting more to earn back the playing time.
RE: And comparing  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:23 pm : link
In comment 12642569 Aspano! said:
Quote:
Thomas at the 4 with O'Quinn at the 4 is ludicrous. Thomas is in for man to man defense since he can guard the 2-4 positions. Does O'Quinn have that responsibility?

And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.


Of Course you cna compare them they both play the same position and if they are playing the same position they should come to the same scrutiny, Thomas is a horrible rebounder and the Knicks are getting killed on the boards when they go small but

Seriously man just stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you...

it is ludicrous to me that anyone can think Lance Thomas is better than Kyle Oquinn....

We are never going to agree on this and that is fine, agree to disagree...

lance Thomas is god awful  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:25 pm : link
and as long as he is getting consistent minutes off the bench this team is going nowhere...

Fisher is never going to get this team anywhere as long as he keeps playing 12-13 guys each game...

If Fisher does not come to a set rotation this bench will continue to suck....

Vujacic, Thomas and Amundson should never see the court....
RE: RE: And comparing  
Aspano! : 11/24/2015 2:33 pm : link
In comment 12642588 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
In comment 12642569 Aspano! said:


Quote:


Thomas at the 4 with O'Quinn at the 4 is ludicrous. Thomas is in for man to man defense since he can guard the 2-4 positions. Does O'Quinn have that responsibility?

And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.



Of Course you cna compare them they both play the same position and if they are playing the same position they should come to the same scrutiny, Thomas is a horrible rebounder and the Knicks are getting killed on the boards when they go small but

Seriously man just stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you...

it is ludicrous to me that anyone can think Lance Thomas is better than Kyle Oquinn....

We are never going to agree on this and that is fine, agree to disagree...


Lance Thomas is not better than O'Quinn, I think that's pretty obvious.

Lance Thomas is useful in certain situations for man-to-man defensive purposes.

Now, if you compare O'Quinn to Amundson, which is more reasonable because they're asked to do similar things, then that's fair. I don't think anyone would say that Amundson should be in over O'Quinn.
If you are saying play lance Thomas  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:36 pm : link
in defensive situations when you need a stop and want to switch on everything? then absolutely i am fine with that...

But if you are going to tell me that Lance Thomas is getting 20+ minutes a night at the 4 over Oquinn no i am not ok with that...

There is no way Lance Thomas should be getting 20 minutes a night i am sorry there is no way he should be getting that many minutes....

I am sure he is a nice guy and good locker room guy but he is not good enough to be playing that many minutes...
and there is no chance  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:37 pm : link
he should be getting 4th quarter minutes EVER in a game unless it is a final defensive possession...
and i am comparing Thomas and Oquinn  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 2:38 pm : link
becuase Fisher has decided to go small and play thomas at the 4 so yes it is fair to compare the 2, they are playing the same position...
RE: If you are saying play lance Thomas  
Aspano! : 11/24/2015 2:51 pm : link
In comment 12642622 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
in defensive situations when you need a stop and want to switch on everything? then absolutely i am fine with that...

But if you are going to tell me that Lance Thomas is getting 20+ minutes a night at the 4 over Oquinn no i am not ok with that...

There is no way Lance Thomas should be getting 20 minutes a night i am sorry there is no way he should be getting that many minutes....

I am sure he is a nice guy and good locker room guy but he is not good enough to be playing that many minutes...


I think we're actually in agreement, for the most part. To me, the consistent rotation needs to be this:

RoLo
Porzingis
Melo
Afflalo
Calderon
Galloway
Grant
Seraphin
O'Quinn

Williams should be used sparingly when you need offense i.e. when they're behind and the second unit is looking to run.
Thomas should be used sparingly when you need defense and/or the other team is going small.

Those last two guys need to have an extremely short leash if they're not getting it done. Meaning, if Williams isn't getting baskets, or Thomas is missing his open shots (which happened last night).

O'Quinn needs to be able to play through slumps and figure it out, because talent-wise he's better than Thomas and Amundson. Unfortunately, Fisher doesn't let him do that.
As a neutral observer....  
Tesla : 11/24/2015 2:53 pm : link
nygiants is destroying Aspano in this argument. It's not even close.

More generally  
Tesla : 11/24/2015 2:53 pm : link
Remember when we were all talking about how deep this team was and what an asset the bench was? And remember our first couple of games where the bench was the Knicks strength? Well Fisher has taken the teams strength and turned it into a huge weakness.

He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.
RE: More generally  
Deej : 11/24/2015 2:55 pm : link
In comment 12642675 Tesla said:
Quote:
Remember when we were all talking about how deep this team was and what an asset the bench was? And remember our first couple of games where the bench was the Knicks strength? Well Fisher has taken the teams strength and turned it into a huge weakness.

He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.


Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?
Saying he's out of his depth is quite an exaggeration.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/24/2015 2:59 pm : link
They're 8-7 after a bear of an opening schedule with which any of us would have taken only being a few games under .500 at thanksgiving.

Show me where he's underachieving.
RE: As a neutral observer....  
Aspano! : 11/24/2015 3:00 pm : link
In comment 12642673 Tesla said:
Quote:
nygiants is destroying Aspano in this argument. It's not even close.


What argument?
I am of the belief  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 3:01 pm : link
that 1 of Afflalo Melo and Porzingis should be on the court at all times...

i am also of the belief that this team is best when they go big, they are built to go big....

this is how i would do the rotation:

calderon 22/Grant 18/ Galloway 8
Afflalo 30/ Galloway 18
Melo 33/ Williams 15
Porzingis 30/ Oquinn 18
Lopez 26/ Seraphin 20/Oquinn 2

Obviously it is those minutes are rough minutes based on flow of the game...

Thomas gets spot minutes for defensive pruposes...
RE: RE: More generally  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 3:04 pm : link
In comment 12642683 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 12642675 Tesla said:


Quote:


Remember when we were all talking about how deep this team was and what an asset the bench was? And remember our first couple of games where the bench was the Knicks strength? Well Fisher has taken the teams strength and turned it into a huge weakness.

He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.



Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?


I disagree, i think this bench could be a very good bench if Fisher cna shorten it and give guys consistent minutes...

right now it is so disjointed no one knows when their minutes are coming...

the only guy with consistent minutes right now off the bench is Galloway
RE: I am of the belief  
Aspano! : 11/24/2015 3:08 pm : link
In comment 12642702 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
that 1 of Afflalo Melo and Porzingis should be on the court at all times...

i am also of the belief that this team is best when they go big, they are built to go big....

this is how i would do the rotation:

calderon 22/Grant 18/ Galloway 8
Afflalo 30/ Galloway 18
Melo 33/ Williams 15
Porzingis 30/ Oquinn 18
Lopez 26/ Seraphin 20/Oquinn 2

Obviously it is those minutes are rough minutes based on flow of the game...

Thomas gets spot minutes for defensive pruposes...


I agree with this for the most part. My only beef is that Williams hasn't proved himself to be effective when the team hasn't been able to run. So if anything, I'd probably up some minutes across the board to make up for Williams, and instead have Afflalo at the 3 with the second unit to give it some scoring punch when neither Melo or Porzingis are in.
Obviously there would be adjustments  
nygiants16 : 11/24/2015 3:10 pm : link
but this bench needs a scoring punch and Williams can add that...

If during a game he is really struggling you come back with afflalo or give spot minutes to Thomas...

RE: Obviously there would be adjustments  
Aspano! : 11/24/2015 3:18 pm : link
In comment 12642726 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
but this bench needs a scoring punch and Williams can add that...

If during a game he is really struggling you come back with afflalo or give spot minutes to Thomas...


I'm hoping Williams can prove me wrong, but he seems to me to have trouble playing within the offense. Afflalo seems to be quite adept at that, and while he's not nearly as athletic as Williams, he seems to be able to provide something in transition as well.
Meanwhile  
Ten Ton Hammer : 11/24/2015 3:19 pm : link
Now that Okafor is ruined, let's see how fast the Sixers can ruin Ben Simmons.

RE: RE: RE: More generally  
Deej : 11/24/2015 3:20 pm : link
In comment 12642708 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?



I disagree, i think this bench could be a very good bench if Fisher cna shorten it and give guys consistent minutes...

right now it is so disjointed no one knows when their minutes are coming...

the only guy with consistent minutes right now off the bench is Galloway


The guards could be better than average. Im just not buying the bench forwards. Figure we have Seraphim, KOQ, Williams, and Thomas (plus pieces). Here are some other East bench forwards:

Cle: Thompson, Varejao, Jefferson
CHI: Taj, Noah, Portis
Indy: Hill, Buddinger
Mia: Amare, Winslow, McRoberts
Atl: Sefolosha, Splitter
Wash: Nene, Blair, Dudley
Bos: Olynyk, Lee, Turner
Orl: Gordon, Frye

I dont know that I've seen all those guys this year. But generally, each of those teams has someone who for the next 65 games, salary aside, I'd take over any of our bench forwards (maybe not Indy or Miami?). Many have two really solid bench bigs. We have more of the cast off variety.

Hope they make me eat these words!


Random Melo Trade Idea:  
giantsfan44ab : 11/24/2015 3:24 pm : link
first I'm going off the assumption that the grizzlies are pretty much out of the playoff picture or close to it by the time the trade deadline comes around:

NY Receives:
Noah
Jeff Green
Mirotic
Portis
Mcdormet

Memphis Receives:
Rose
Williams
Chicago 1st rounders

Chicago Receives:
Melo
Lopez
Conley

Memphis is at huge risk of losing Conley so they can still get some value for him and Rose coming back to Memphis makes for a good narrative and a chance to revive his career. I think part of the reason why they traded for Chalmers is out of fear of Conley dipping.

Also, a team of Conley, Butler, Melo, Pau, Lopez, Taj, Dunleavy and Snell I'd say is ready to challenge the Cavs right away.
RE: Meanwhile  
Deej : 11/24/2015 3:25 pm : link
In comment 12642744 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Now that Okafor is ruined, let's see how fast the Sixers can ruin Ben Simmons.



He's actually doing pretty well individually. Killed Towns last night.
JO v KAT highlights - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: More generally  
Aspano! : 11/24/2015 3:27 pm : link
In comment 12642746 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 12642708 nygiants16 said:


Quote:


Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?



I disagree, i think this bench could be a very good bench if Fisher cna shorten it and give guys consistent minutes...

right now it is so disjointed no one knows when their minutes are coming...

the only guy with consistent minutes right now off the bench is Galloway



The guards could be better than average. Im just not buying the bench forwards. Figure we have Seraphim, KOQ, Williams, and Thomas (plus pieces). Here are some other East bench forwards:

Cle: Thompson, Varejao, Jefferson
CHI: Taj, Noah, Portis
Indy: Hill, Buddinger
Mia: Amare, Winslow, McRoberts
Atl: Sefolosha, Splitter
Wash: Nene, Blair, Dudley
Bos: Olynyk, Lee, Turner
Orl: Gordon, Frye

I dont know that I've seen all those guys this year. But generally, each of those teams has someone who for the next 65 games, salary aside, I'd take over any of our bench forwards (maybe not Indy or Miami?). Many have two really solid bench bigs. We have more of the cast off variety.

Hope they make me eat these words!



Seraphin is really hit or miss. Beginning of the year he was a black hole on offense, but he's done a nice job adjusting. I liked seeing him in the second half last night because I thought the only way we would be able to come back was by having a threat in the post. Unfortunately he wasn't hitting those shots.

I'm also 99% sure O'Quinn told Fisher he was fucked up for messing with his boy Matt Barnes. That's pretty much the only explanation.
RE: Random Melo Trade Idea:  
Aspano! : 11/24/2015 3:30 pm : link
In comment 12642756 giantsfan44ab said:
Quote:
first I'm going off the assumption that the grizzlies are pretty much out of the playoff picture or close to it by the time the trade deadline comes around:

NY Receives:
Noah
Jeff Green
Mirotic
Portis
Mcdormet

Memphis Receives:
Rose
Williams
Chicago 1st rounders

Chicago Receives:
Melo
Lopez
Conley

Memphis is at huge risk of losing Conley so they can still get some value for him and Rose coming back to Memphis makes for a good narrative and a chance to revive his career. I think part of the reason why they traded for Chalmers is out of fear of Conley dipping.

Also, a team of Conley, Butler, Melo, Pau, Lopez, Taj, Dunleavy and Snell I'd say is ready to challenge the Cavs right away.


Isiah, is that you?
Sixers v. Warriors @ neutral site  
Deej : 11/24/2015 3:31 pm : link
3 times a week for 100 games. Assume no injuries. How many games does Philly take. It has to be a scale of 0-9, right? Philly isnt winning 1 if 10 games.

I feel like my number is 2. Crazy?
Also it seems  
Deej : 11/24/2015 3:34 pm : link
Chad Ford floated an Okafor for Russell trade.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: Meanwhile  
Del Shofner : 11/24/2015 3:34 pm : link
In comment 12642757 Deej said:
Quote:
In comment 12642744 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


Now that Okafor is ruined, let's see how fast the Sixers can ruin Ben Simmons.





He's actually doing pretty well individually. Killed Towns last night. JO v KAT highlights - ( New Window )



Okafor showing some nice moves there.
Post on Knicks bench  
Aspano! : 11/24/2015 4:00 pm : link
I think starting Galloway in place of Afflalo is actually a pretty good idea...
Fix the bench! - ( New Window )
WRT Okafor...  
manh george : 11/24/2015 4:11 pm : link
I could never understand why a player with that size and kind of mobility on offense couldn't learn to be a very good rebounder and at least a decent defender.

I haven't changed that view.
Okafor for Russell is ridiculous  
giantsfan44ab : 11/24/2015 4:13 pm : link
you think Hinkie wants to trade Okafor because him and Noel aren't good on the court together? Pretty sure that Hinkie's goal right now isn't to post good offensive/defensive ratings right now. Don't think he'd want to trade Okafor for 50 cents on the dollR because of "fit". I'd be shocked if Okafor, embiid and Noel were all on the roster 3 years from now but that's because they will prolly ship one of them off for a disgruntled star.

If I were Hinkie I don't even think I'd trade Okafor for Russell, clarkson and Randle to be honest.
RE: Post on Knicks bench  
Jon in NYC : 11/24/2015 4:13 pm : link
In comment 12642833 Aspano! said:
[quote] I think starting Galloway in place of Afflalo is actually a pretty good idea... Fix the bench! - ( New Window ) [/quote

I do as well.
RE: WRT Okafor...  
giantsfan44ab : 11/24/2015 4:17 pm : link
In comment 12642854 manh george said:
Quote:
I could never understand why a player with that size and kind of mobility on offense couldn't learn to be a very good rebounder and at least a decent defender.

I haven't changed that view.


He may never be a good defender, but you're right, with his size and shot blocking he can be alright on defense. Pick and roll defense may be an issue but he can become serviceable eventually. Everyone overreacts during the draft and assumes that Okafor and Russell will be the worst defenders in the entire league, but I'd be shocked if there weren't worse defensive rookies that came into the league and developed into average defenders.
His rebounding is already improved.  
Deej : 11/24/2015 4:26 pm : link
His rebounding by game since the start of the season: 7, 6, 3, 6, 6, 5, 15, 7, 6, 12, 11, 6, 7, 11, 12. 59 over the last 6 games; 48 over the first 7 including a 15 rebound effort over a Noah-less Bulls team where no one shot well. I posted an article last week about him going to the coaches to ask for help on rebounding issues.
RE: Post on Knicks bench  
Deej : 11/24/2015 4:41 pm : link
In comment 12642833 Aspano! said:
Quote:
I think starting Galloway in place of Afflalo is actually a pretty good idea... Fix the bench! - ( New Window )


I still cant get passed the bigger picture problem, ie the Chinese Firedrill approach to substitution. Swapping out everyone as a 5 man unit is just madness. It's 5 guys who cant start on a bubble playoff team -- sure lets put them all out together. Regardless of whether LeBron is still in the game (oh, it happened).

As for Afflalo, I wouldnt put him in the Melo/Porz group. Not all that sure that Afflalo can consistently get off his shot. Grant can, but his game is poo poo (coach speak) right now. IMO we should consider having one of Melo/Porz out at all times. This is the real value of a JR Smith type -- he can be instant offense off the bench.
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