Miami is trying to force Lance to beat them of all the bench players, and that definitely works to their advantage.
Also I get the feeling that Fisher is using an extended rotation, which is why we didn't see KOQ for a few games and now we're seeing Vujacic. I don't like it.
Will prove to Fisher why an extended rotation doesn't work. End of the bench guys can show spurts in limited action, but over the long haul they show that they aren't as talented.
that he can be the next John Stockton if he can figure out how to feed Porzingis? He needs to spend this entire season feeding the big man, stop shooting.
with the Melo three attempt off Lou's missed free throw. Momentum swung back to Miami after that. Hope we can at least get to single digits here, then kick their asses Friday night at the Garden.
Your down 20 go with a small offensive lineup and take your chances...Thomas for every good game he has played he plays 3/stinkers he is fools gold...he is not going to give you 10-12 points consistently...he is not a consistent player...
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
Positives - Fisher showed he can be tactical by fouling Whiteside with 4 minutes left.
Saw Lance wasn't hitting his shots so he took him out.
Negatives - Still needs to get a better feel for the game. Post scoring seemed like it would have kept the game close, but he didn't bring Seraphin in until the second half.
Too much Amundson.
Thomas played surprisingly effective defense on Harden the other
Your down 20 go with a small offensive lineup and take your chances...Thomas for every good game he has played he plays 3/stinkers he is fools gold...he is not going to give you 10-12 points consistently...he is not a consistent player...
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
in a while just for comparison and fun's sake, the link is just a comparison of the most notable picks in this past NBA draft. Which seems to be a bonanza of quality at the top of the draft. Rookie Comparison Page - ( New Window )
As long as fisher keeps changing it every game... NBA players need to know their role and what their minutes are going to be right now no bench players knows what their minutes are going to be...the inconsistency is killing this bench...
First game of the season they scored over 50 points and Fisher changed it the next game why?...he needs to find a consistent rotation until then this team will jot have a good bench
Your down 20 go with a small offensive lineup and take your chances...Thomas for every good game he has played he plays 3/stinkers he is fools gold...he is not going to give you 10-12 points consistently...he is not a consistent player...
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
Watch him closely next game he doesn't fight through screens...he is always swithing
was among the most embarrassing things I've seen in an NBA game. I still can't believe that actually happened. He was also on the crew that awarded the pacers nearly 50 free throws in game 6 in 2013. Oh, and he's a convicted felon. So fuck him.
Your down 20 go with a small offensive lineup and take your chances...Thomas for every good game he has played he plays 3/stinkers he is fools gold...he is not going to give you 10-12 points consistently...he is not a consistent player...
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
Watch him closely next game he doesn't fight through screens...he is always swithing
I do watch him closely. And notice he only got 5 minutes because Fisher realized he was ineffective. Put your bias aside.
You're picking and choosing stats. Galloway was a -22. Highest +/- was Amundson at +6.
The bench got dominated in the second quarter, and the open looks we had we missed. It happens.
the game went from bad to worse when Thomas was out there. That was my only point. I'm not saying he's the reason they lost, but he's awful at basketball and shouldn't be getting regular minutes.
You're picking and choosing stats. Galloway was a -22. Highest +/- was Amundson at +6.
The bench got dominated in the second quarter, and the open looks we had we missed. It happens.
the game went from bad to worse when Thomas was out there. That was my only point. I'm not saying he's the reason they lost, but he's awful at basketball and shouldn't be getting regular minutes.
He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
of the bench. They weren't winning tonight regardless (they missed a ton of open looks), but we're far enough into the season where at least a few of the guys should have better defined roles. All we know for sure is that Galloway is going to get solid minutes and Early isn't going to play at all. ANYTHING else is possible from game to game.
The guy wouldn't be in the NBA if Knicks didn't sign him... He is the worst 20 minutes per game player in the league...he is awful
And yet, he got only 5 minutes in a game where he wasn't hitting his shots. I agree - ask him to do too much, and he's garbage. But as a defender, he's quite good. But he should only be on the floor if he's hitting the open looks, and he wasn't. Again, put your bias aside.
He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
of the bench. They weren't winning tonight regardless (they missed a ton of open looks), but we're far enough into the season where at least a few of the guys should have better defined roles. All we know for sure is that Galloway is going to get solid minutes and Early isn't going to play at all. ANYTHING else is possible from game to game.
Agreed. Seems like Fisher is using his rotation based on back of the bench players being "effective" in limited minutes. He seems stubborn in that regard. I think he'll only settle on a shorter rotation when he realizes that in the long run, those guys can't provide enough consistently.
He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
And to start the season he was shooting well on 3s. He has cooled off. I've said in previous threads that he needs to get his shot consistent to be a viable option off the bench. This is part of the process. I think next year we'll see him be more effective on a consistent basis in that role.
And I will say that I thought Thomas was nonsense last year, and I was pissed to see him at the beginning of this year. But he has shown that he is more than capable on D, and it's a matter of him being consistent with his shot. He is MUCH improved this year, and I think with another year, he could be a viable guy as far as providing D and hitting open jumpers. This is the way you build a 3 and D player - take a low cost guy who shows something on defense and teach him to shoot, rather than paying 10 mill for a guy who does the same shit but a little bit better.
and their team is probably deeper than ours. I'm willing to chalk up some of this to early season mixing and matching, lots of games clustered together against good teams, etc., but the amount of guys getting minutes is unheard of at this level. Second team should be Grant, Gallo, O'Quinn, Seraphin and either Lance or Williams. Lou and Sasha should never take their warm-ups off unless it's a 20-point game in the fourth. Back when the Knicks were good, it was an event when Herb Williams or Rick Brunson ever got playing time - now we're emptying the bench every night by halftime.
and their team is probably deeper than ours. I'm willing to chalk up some of this to early season mixing and matching, lots of games clustered together against good teams, etc., but the amount of guys getting minutes is unheard of at this level. Second team should be Grant, Gallo, O'Quinn, Seraphin and either Lance or Williams. Lou and Sasha should never take their warm-ups off unless it's a 20-point game in the fourth. Back when the Knicks were good, it was an event when Herb Williams or Rick Brunson ever got playing time - now we're emptying the bench every night by halftime.
Completely agree with this. Vujacic and Amundson shouldn't be playing at all. But Williams has been crap on D, and Thomas has yet to find a consistent jumper. I'm open to them being in the rotation so long as they accomplish what they have to, but if they show an inability to do so then they need to be pulled. I think Fisher has been good with that so far. Only qualm I have is with Amundson getting KOQ's minutes.
He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
There are things that happen that don't show up in the box score. Lance Thomas is a lot like Jared Jeffries lite, in the sense that most of what he does best doesn't show up there. Postingandtoasting had a nice breakdown of the stuff he's doing to get minutes the other day.
Well, forgive me for puncturing a little of the KP balloon here, but our rookie had a rookie game. He lost his man on several back door plays and seemed a step behind and a bit lost on defense much of the night.
In Knicks' possessions the Heat came out high to challenge KP and he missed a bunch of shots when the game was getting away from Knicks.
And Whiteside's block on his short hook/layup gave me a whoa! moment.
He's smart, this will be part of the learning curve, but definitely not a "ho hum" night for KP.
the problem wasn't him or coaching. The Knicks couldn't hit a shot last night. They were short, short, short. While Miami plays good defense, the Knicks were stone cold on open looks. Maybe rushing in anticipation of the defense.
Both KP and Mello shot around 30% and, as badly as they played, they were easily the best Knicks on the floor. It was just a stinker of a game. Fortunately it is a long season.
it was just an ugly game. We are a jump shooting team, and sometimes teams like that are going to put up stinkers. We shot 32.2% (MIA shot 38.3%). Their defense isnt hold someone to 32.2% good.
We are really struggling to shoot. 41.5%, ahead of only terrible teams in LAL and PHI. The good teams like MIA, SAS, and CLE are holding us under 40%. We're a work in progress. It's a multi-season rebuild.
Thomas has a long way to go before sniffing Jeffries' jock defensively. And Jeffries was a bad player. He's a guy who makes a coach look not bad (because he could lockdown a star) while really doing a lot to lose you the game because he was a zero offensively. Advanced stats underrate defensive specialists (see Bell, Bowen). But Jeffries really stunk offensively.
I through out the idea of Thomas developing into a 3 and D player. But the D isnt quite there yet, and the 3 needs a lot more track record.
Until this coach comes out with a consistent rotation
this bench is going to be bad...you can not keep playing players in 5 minute spurts and it not only changes game to game, it changes half to half...
Every game he goes with something different, and you can not keep playing 13 players...
You want to play Lance Thomas minutes fine give him consistent minutes...
You want to play Derrick Williams and go small fine then play him consistnet minutes, do not play him 4 minutes in one game then the next play him 20...
Figure out your big rotation, with Seraphin and Oquinn on this team Amundson should be getting 0 minutes no reason for him to get minutes none...
Vujacic should never see the court, ever....
Players are not machines you cant just turn them on and off and expect them to perform...a player needs to know his role and his minutes, players do not play well in 5 minute spurts...
and the coach still can not figure out his rotation, it is geting ridiculous at this point...
The bench was great the first couple of games and then all of sudden he had to change it to add Amundson and Seraphin....I do not understand why he did not stick with the bench from the beginning...
Thomas has a long way to go before sniffing Jeffries' jock defensively. And Jeffries was a bad player. He's a guy who makes a coach look not bad (because he could lockdown a star) while really doing a lot to lose you the game because he was a zero offensively. Advanced stats underrate defensive specialists (see Bell, Bowen). But Jeffries really stunk offensively.
I through out the idea of Thomas developing into a 3 and D player. But the D isnt quite there yet, and the 3 needs a lot more track record.
This is true, Jeffries was a lot better, hence the "lite". I just think that's what Fisher is giving him the opportunity to do. He's hoping that Thomas can be a guy that you throw at a top scorer and he harrasses the shit out of them. There is no one else on the bench that profiles remotely like that. You need to have a guy like that for some matchups. Thomas actually did a nice job of harrassing Harden. He's super active.
Amundson is the same way. Fisher seems to like him over KOQ because KOQ is not a hustler on defense. His defensive strength is really only enforcing the no layup rule. Fisher clearly is rewarding activity. And the signal to guys like Seraphin and KOQ for Amundson or Early for Thomas is that they need to bring activity on defense to see the floor. They all bring more to the game offensively than Amundson and Thomas but they need to play both sides of the floor.
This is also why D. Williams is not getting many minutes.
Is amundson is only hustle...you can not have 2 guys who are inept on offense on the floor at the same time...add grants shooting struggles and it makes the bench shit...
There really isn't anyone on the bench who is or can be a scorer. The closest thing would be Williams, but he hasn't shown that he can consistently play within the offense.
Personally, I think they should be taking Afflalo out at the 6 minute mark in the first and replacing him with Galloway. A few minutes later you can take out Porzingis, and then sit Melo to start the 2nd quarter while bringing in Afflalo at the 3.
They need to have one of Melo, Porzingis and Afflalo on the court at all times. And KOQ really needs to get over what he's dealing with, because on the second unit he can be super effective as a passing big.
There really isn't anyone on the bench who is or can be a scorer. The closest thing would be Williams, but he hasn't shown that he can consistently play within the offense.
Personally, I think they should be taking Afflalo out at the 6 minute mark in the first and replacing him with Galloway. A few minutes later you can take out Porzingis, and then sit Melo to start the 2nd quarter while bringing in Afflalo at the 3.
They need to have one of Melo, Porzingis and Afflalo on the court at all times. And KOQ really needs to get over what he's dealing with, because on the second unit he can be super effective as a passing big.
Agree 100% with this but this doesnt work with Fisher's game plan of playing 12 guys...
There is no reason to not have 1 of our "big 3" on the court at all times...
Fisher for some reason always has to do hockey shifts, there is no reason to have 5 bench guys on the court at all...there is no reason for it..
to "stretch" the rotation to rest guys for later in the season...
I'm hoping he's just feeling out the rotation, and that he'll eventually turn to a 9 or 10 man rotation. If it is just a feeling out, then I have no problem with it, especially if it keeps us over .500. But if this is a strategy he intends to employ for the long haul, it will be an issue.
I dont have a big problem with Thomas at this point
I dont even have such a problem with KOQ sitting. Maybe he's a bad fit and/or Fish doesnt like his defensive effort or shot selection.
The guard rotation has largely worked out. Like all stars, Galloway is proving to be a little streaky. Grant is regressing. It's not just the defense. His shot off the drive is not a wild mess. With Fish, Calderon and Afflalo here to guide him, I hope that straightens out soon.
Someone needs to distinguish himself among the backup forwards. Seraphin is the center. 1.5 roles left IMO at the 3/4. Thomas as the primary backup, Williams as a change of pace low minute guy? Fine. Amundson should sit. Vuj get no minutes. Fish should experiment with Melo and Porz splitting up a bit more.
That being said, he has shit the bed recently. In only a few minutes last night, the only thing I can remember him doing was trying a bounce pass in the paint that was stolen and taken the either way for a transition basket.
if he didnt play so well when he actually gets minutes...
In games he plays more than 15 minutes he is averaging 8 and 8 and shooting 60%...
So why all of sudden was he taken out of the rotation for Lou amundson of all people?
Lou had two really good games. The question is why continued bad play hasnt cost him his spot in the rotation.
Agree with Aspano that KOQ didnt look good in the minutes I saw last night. Looked slow up and down the court. He believes that he is a lot more skilled than he is.
That being said, he has shit the bed recently. In only a few minutes last night, the only thing I can remember him doing was trying a bounce pass in the paint that was stolen and taken the either way for a transition basket.
But is it really fair to judge a player who played 4 minutes? hwo can you honestly say a player is good or bad based on a 5 minute spurt...
You have seen what he can do when he gets minutes...
and you can play Koq and Seraphin at the same time...both can hit the mid range and both can play in the post...
we're trying to figure out what works for an incomplete team. We need people scoring closer to the basket. Grant and Lopez in particular.
Lopez needs to motivate himself to take the next step. I think he has it in him. He's never going to have great post moves because he isnt an uber athlete. But he could be more effective offensively given his package, smarts, and the fact that other guys draw more attention.
RE: RE: KOQ needs to be able to work out of his funk
That being said, he has shit the bed recently. In only a few minutes last night, the only thing I can remember him doing was trying a bounce pass in the paint that was stolen and taken the either way for a transition basket.
But is it really fair to judge a player who played 4 minutes? hwo can you honestly say a player is good or bad based on a 5 minute spurt...
You have seen what he can do when he gets minutes...
and you can play Koq and Seraphin at the same time...both can hit the mid range and both can play in the post...
But I've mentioned it before. Yes, it's only 5 minutes, but he looked bad in the second Milwaukee game, and he hasn't shown anything in the time he's gotten after that. You can't just assume that it's a matter of him playing 15 minutes that will make him look good.
The Sunday game went Seraphin went off was his first time off the bench in a few games. And he immediately had a positive effect, and that earned him more playing time. KOQ has done the opposite so far.
I'm certainly not giving up on him, but I fear Fisher's gonna banish him soon, like Early and O'Quinn. He needs a double-digit scoring game in the worst way.
In the games he plays 15 minutes or more he plays very well...
In the games he plays less he is awful...
So what does that tell you? He needs minutes to be effective...
Which brings me back to my entire point, Fisher needs to set the rotation already or this bench is going to continue to suck, he can not keep playing guys in 5 minute spurts it is not going to work...
If he wants to play Williams play him 15 minutes....if you are not going to play him 15 minutes do not play him at all...
Seraphin if you are going to play him 15 minutes or more than play him, if you are not then do not play him....
KOQ if you are going to play him play him 15 minutes or more, if you are not going to do that then do not play him...
Stop going 12, 13 men every fucking game and set your damn rotation already....15 games into the season and he can figure out his bench, it is getting ridiculous...
that can go in 5 minute spurts are Thomas and Amundson because they are hustle guys, that is all they do...
A hustle guy can play 5 minutes and be effective...
When they play more is when you get into trouble...
Guys like, Seraphin, Oquinn, Williams need minutes to get into a flow, if you are not going to give that to them then they are not going to be productive for you simple as that...
In the games he plays 15 minutes or more he plays very well...
In the games he plays less he is awful...
So what does that tell you? He needs minutes to be effective...
Which brings me back to my entire point, Fisher needs to set the rotation already or this bench is going to continue to suck, he can not keep playing guys in 5 minute spurts it is not going to work...
If he wants to play Williams play him 15 minutes....if you are not going to play him 15 minutes do not play him at all...
Seraphin if you are going to play him 15 minutes or more than play him, if you are not then do not play him....
KOQ if you are going to play him play him 15 minutes or more, if you are not going to do that then do not play him...
Stop going 12, 13 men every fucking game and set your damn rotation already....15 games into the season and he can figure out his bench, it is getting ridiculous...
But what you're saying doesn't make sense. If you're going to be effective, you need to do it when you're out on the floor, whether it be 5 minutes or 15 minutes or 30 minutes.
And you're just using the 15 minutes thing without any reference to when it happened. In the beginning of the year he was getting more time and he was playing better. He then started to play poorly, which led to him getting fewer and fewer minutes.
more than anyone else is someone I think who needs minutes to be effective. He's getting thrown out there at end of quarters with not much talent around him so he's bound to force up shots. Calderon/Galloway are both playing pretty well so he's not gonna get minutes unless one of them struggles or if they are playing in a blow out.
no you can not expect a player to go out and play 4 minutes and be effective, you can not get into a flow of the game when you do that to players...
If you had Melo come off th ebench and threw him out there for 4 minutes, do you think he would be effective? no he would look like shit because he wouldnt be able to get into the flow of the game...
Hustle players can play 4-5 minute spurts but that is about it...
because they played hard for him in a shit year last year..his words, that is the dumbest thing i ever heard...
Udonis Haslem played well on championship teams for the Heat and does not see minutes...you do not play players because they played hard for you in a previous season...it is the dumbest thing i have ever heard...
But what you're saying doesn't make sense. If you're going to be effective, you need to do it when you're out on the floor, whether it be 5 minutes or 15 minutes or 30 minutes.
And you're just using the 15 minutes thing without any reference to when it happened. In the beginning of the year he was getting more time and he was playing better. He then started to play poorly, which led to him getting fewer and fewer minutes.
I think players need minutes to get into a flow. Especially a young kid like Grant. It's really tough to get into a flow in 5-10 minutes total. Also people who get short shifted tend to press to justify playing time, making matters worse.
We are not a very athletic team. I think if you look at our team we are bellow average in athletic ability at the 1, 2, 3, and 5 spots. I know Melo has his strengths but at a 3 there are many more athletic players. Once you put this all together we will have trouble with those type of teams like Miami.
We are not a very athletic team. I think if you look at our team we are bellow average in athletic ability at the 1, 2, 3, and 5 spots. I know Melo has his strengths but at a 3 there are many more athletic players. Once you put this all together we will have trouble with those type of teams like Miami.
That is why you go big and use your strength against the oppposing team, you do not go small with a team that is not built to go small...
but sure, show me the win share numbers. That would be interesting. Though O'Quinn hasn't played enough to have rate stats to compare really.
O'Quinn is a plodder, Thomas can guard multiple positions and on the perimeter. Seems pretty basic to me. And I like O'Quinn. I think he's a good piece to have in certain situations should they need to go big and physical.
is a net negative, add Williams as the 3 and it is killing the Knicks because neither are good rebounders...
You cna get away with it with Melo at the 4 because he is a banger and can grab boards but with Thomas there the Knicks will continue to get killed on the glass...
Perhaps it was the game after against the Lakers then? And this is from the Raptors game, right after that:
O'Quinn looks like
GiantsUA : 11/10/2015 8:47 pm : link
he was out late.
KP - heating up, Melo filling it up, Grant going to school
The Toronto game is also where Amundson got his first minutes of the year.
It has nothing to do with "facts." Looking at stats blindly while not watching the game doesn't get you anywhere. Against Toronto KOQ got 11 minutes because he did nothing and was replaced in the second half by Seraphin.
Seraphin has shown in limited minutes after being benched that he could adjust, and his minutes started to increase again. Amundson did the same. O'Quinn hasn't.
Do I think Fisher should stick with him so he straightens himself out? Yes, I do. Or at the very least, bring in Seraphin instead, rather than bringing in back of the bench guys like Amundson. But it is pretty clear that Fisher will take a guy out as soon as he sees him playing like crap. And O'Quinn hasn't done much of anything since then.
then all of sudden his minutes were cut for Lou Amundson....
I watch every single game every minute, and there is absolutely no reason for Lou Amundson to be getting more minutes than Kyle Oquinn, none...
He was benched for a guy who played hard for Fisher last season and that is why he was benched, those are fisher's words not mine...he said that Amundson and thomas are getting minutes because they played hard for him last season...it is the dumbest thing i have every heard...
Thomas at the 4 with O'Quinn at the 4 is ludicrous. Thomas is in for man to man defense since he can guard the 2-4 positions. Does O'Quinn have that responsibility?
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
Fisher is too faithful to those guys. That might very well be the case, and that is a fault. But Fisher has shown to have a pretty short leash (at least with the newer guys), and KOQ hasn't done much since sitting more to earn back the playing time.
Thomas at the 4 with O'Quinn at the 4 is ludicrous. Thomas is in for man to man defense since he can guard the 2-4 positions. Does O'Quinn have that responsibility?
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
Of Course you cna compare them they both play the same position and if they are playing the same position they should come to the same scrutiny, Thomas is a horrible rebounder and the Knicks are getting killed on the boards when they go small but
Seriously man just stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you...
it is ludicrous to me that anyone can think Lance Thomas is better than Kyle Oquinn....
We are never going to agree on this and that is fine, agree to disagree...
Thomas at the 4 with O'Quinn at the 4 is ludicrous. Thomas is in for man to man defense since he can guard the 2-4 positions. Does O'Quinn have that responsibility?
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
Of Course you cna compare them they both play the same position and if they are playing the same position they should come to the same scrutiny, Thomas is a horrible rebounder and the Knicks are getting killed on the boards when they go small but
Seriously man just stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you...
it is ludicrous to me that anyone can think Lance Thomas is better than Kyle Oquinn....
We are never going to agree on this and that is fine, agree to disagree...
Lance Thomas is not better than O'Quinn, I think that's pretty obvious.
Lance Thomas is useful in certain situations for man-to-man defensive purposes.
Now, if you compare O'Quinn to Amundson, which is more reasonable because they're asked to do similar things, then that's fair. I don't think anyone would say that Amundson should be in over O'Quinn.
in defensive situations when you need a stop and want to switch on everything? then absolutely i am fine with that...
But if you are going to tell me that Lance Thomas is getting 20+ minutes a night at the 4 over Oquinn no i am not ok with that...
There is no way Lance Thomas should be getting 20 minutes a night i am sorry there is no way he should be getting that many minutes....
I am sure he is a nice guy and good locker room guy but he is not good enough to be playing that many minutes...
I think we're actually in agreement, for the most part. To me, the consistent rotation needs to be this:
RoLo
Porzingis
Melo
Afflalo
Calderon
Galloway
Grant
Seraphin
O'Quinn
Williams should be used sparingly when you need offense i.e. when they're behind and the second unit is looking to run.
Thomas should be used sparingly when you need defense and/or the other team is going small.
Those last two guys need to have an extremely short leash if they're not getting it done. Meaning, if Williams isn't getting baskets, or Thomas is missing his open shots (which happened last night).
O'Quinn needs to be able to play through slumps and figure it out, because talent-wise he's better than Thomas and Amundson. Unfortunately, Fisher doesn't let him do that.
Remember when we were all talking about how deep this team was and what an asset the bench was? And remember our first couple of games where the bench was the Knicks strength? Well Fisher has taken the teams strength and turned it into a huge weakness.
He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.
Remember when we were all talking about how deep this team was and what an asset the bench was? And remember our first couple of games where the bench was the Knicks strength? Well Fisher has taken the teams strength and turned it into a huge weakness.
He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.
Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?
Saying he's out of his depth is quite an exaggeration.
Remember when we were all talking about how deep this team was and what an asset the bench was? And remember our first couple of games where the bench was the Knicks strength? Well Fisher has taken the teams strength and turned it into a huge weakness.
He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.
Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?
I disagree, i think this bench could be a very good bench if Fisher cna shorten it and give guys consistent minutes...
right now it is so disjointed no one knows when their minutes are coming...
the only guy with consistent minutes right now off the bench is Galloway
Obviously it is those minutes are rough minutes based on flow of the game...
Thomas gets spot minutes for defensive pruposes...
I agree with this for the most part. My only beef is that Williams hasn't proved himself to be effective when the team hasn't been able to run. So if anything, I'd probably up some minutes across the board to make up for Williams, and instead have Afflalo at the 3 with the second unit to give it some scoring punch when neither Melo or Porzingis are in.
but this bench needs a scoring punch and Williams can add that...
If during a game he is really struggling you come back with afflalo or give spot minutes to Thomas...
I'm hoping Williams can prove me wrong, but he seems to me to have trouble playing within the offense. Afflalo seems to be quite adept at that, and while he's not nearly as athletic as Williams, he seems to be able to provide something in transition as well.
Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?
I disagree, i think this bench could be a very good bench if Fisher cna shorten it and give guys consistent minutes...
right now it is so disjointed no one knows when their minutes are coming...
the only guy with consistent minutes right now off the bench is Galloway
The guards could be better than average. Im just not buying the bench forwards. Figure we have Seraphim, KOQ, Williams, and Thomas (plus pieces). Here are some other East bench forwards:
I dont know that I've seen all those guys this year. But generally, each of those teams has someone who for the next 65 games, salary aside, I'd take over any of our bench forwards (maybe not Indy or Miami?). Many have two really solid bench bigs. We have more of the cast off variety.
first I'm going off the assumption that the grizzlies are pretty much out of the playoff picture or close to it by the time the trade deadline comes around:
NY Receives:
Noah
Jeff Green
Mirotic
Portis
Mcdormet
Memphis Receives:
Rose
Williams
Chicago 1st rounders
Chicago Receives:
Melo
Lopez
Conley
Memphis is at huge risk of losing Conley so they can still get some value for him and Rose coming back to Memphis makes for a good narrative and a chance to revive his career. I think part of the reason why they traded for Chalmers is out of fear of Conley dipping.
Also, a team of Conley, Butler, Melo, Pau, Lopez, Taj, Dunleavy and Snell I'd say is ready to challenge the Cavs right away.
Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?
I disagree, i think this bench could be a very good bench if Fisher cna shorten it and give guys consistent minutes...
right now it is so disjointed no one knows when their minutes are coming...
the only guy with consistent minutes right now off the bench is Galloway
The guards could be better than average. Im just not buying the bench forwards. Figure we have Seraphim, KOQ, Williams, and Thomas (plus pieces). Here are some other East bench forwards:
I dont know that I've seen all those guys this year. But generally, each of those teams has someone who for the next 65 games, salary aside, I'd take over any of our bench forwards (maybe not Indy or Miami?). Many have two really solid bench bigs. We have more of the cast off variety.
Hope they make me eat these words!
Seraphin is really hit or miss. Beginning of the year he was a black hole on offense, but he's done a nice job adjusting. I liked seeing him in the second half last night because I thought the only way we would be able to come back was by having a threat in the post. Unfortunately he wasn't hitting those shots.
I'm also 99% sure O'Quinn told Fisher he was fucked up for messing with his boy Matt Barnes. That's pretty much the only explanation.
first I'm going off the assumption that the grizzlies are pretty much out of the playoff picture or close to it by the time the trade deadline comes around:
NY Receives:
Noah
Jeff Green
Mirotic
Portis
Mcdormet
Memphis Receives:
Rose
Williams
Chicago 1st rounders
Chicago Receives:
Melo
Lopez
Conley
Memphis is at huge risk of losing Conley so they can still get some value for him and Rose coming back to Memphis makes for a good narrative and a chance to revive his career. I think part of the reason why they traded for Chalmers is out of fear of Conley dipping.
Also, a team of Conley, Butler, Melo, Pau, Lopez, Taj, Dunleavy and Snell I'd say is ready to challenge the Cavs right away.
3 times a week for 100 games. Assume no injuries. How many games does Philly take. It has to be a scale of 0-9, right? Philly isnt winning 1 if 10 games.
I could never understand why a player with that size and kind of mobility on offense couldn't learn to be a very good rebounder and at least a decent defender.
you think Hinkie wants to trade Okafor because him and Noel aren't good on the court together? Pretty sure that Hinkie's goal right now isn't to post good offensive/defensive ratings right now. Don't think he'd want to trade Okafor for 50 cents on the dollR because of "fit". I'd be shocked if Okafor, embiid and Noel were all on the roster 3 years from now but that's because they will prolly ship one of them off for a disgruntled star.
If I were Hinkie I don't even think I'd trade Okafor for Russell, clarkson and Randle to be honest.
In comment 12642833 Aspano! said:
[quote] I think starting Galloway in place of Afflalo is actually a pretty good idea... Fix the bench! - ( New Window ) [/quote
I could never understand why a player with that size and kind of mobility on offense couldn't learn to be a very good rebounder and at least a decent defender.
I haven't changed that view.
He may never be a good defender, but you're right, with his size and shot blocking he can be alright on defense. Pick and roll defense may be an issue but he can become serviceable eventually. Everyone overreacts during the draft and assumes that Okafor and Russell will be the worst defenders in the entire league, but I'd be shocked if there weren't worse defensive rookies that came into the league and developed into average defenders.
His rebounding by game since the start of the season: 7, 6, 3, 6, 6, 5, 15, 7, 6, 12, 11, 6, 7, 11, 12. 59 over the last 6 games; 48 over the first 7 including a 15 rebound effort over a Noah-less Bulls team where no one shot well. I posted an article last week about him going to the coaches to ask for help on rebounding issues.
I think starting Galloway in place of Afflalo is actually a pretty good idea... Fix the bench! - ( New Window )
I still cant get passed the bigger picture problem, ie the Chinese Firedrill approach to substitution. Swapping out everyone as a 5 man unit is just madness. It's 5 guys who cant start on a bubble playoff team -- sure lets put them all out together. Regardless of whether LeBron is still in the game (oh, it happened).
As for Afflalo, I wouldnt put him in the Melo/Porz group. Not all that sure that Afflalo can consistently get off his shot. Grant can, but his game is poo poo (coach speak) right now. IMO we should consider having one of Melo/Porz out at all times. This is the real value of a JR Smith type -- he can be instant offense off the bench.
On the plus side, Clyde just said "Johnson likes penetration".
Down seven after one.
Also I get the feeling that Fisher is using an extended rotation, which is why we didn't see KOQ for a few games and now we're seeing Vujacic. I don't like it.
Yeah but why does it have to come against the Heat?
That should be a flagrant on Whiteside but aomehow it is foul on Lopez?
Melo taking Winslow to school a bit.
Agreed. But then even Thomas is the better alternative over Amundson.
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I dont know that he can chase Bosh around. KOQ defending out to the 3 line?
Agreed. But then even Thomas is the better alternative over Amundson.
Lance Thomas was awful tonight...when you need a spark offensively why not give Williams a chance?
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In comment 12641463 Deej said:
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I dont know that he can chase Bosh around. KOQ defending out to the 3 line?
Agreed. But then even Thomas is the better alternative over Amundson.
Lance Thomas was awful tonight...when you need a spark offensively why not give Williams a chance?
Because Williams is lackluster on D. Even if Thomas sucks on O, he's shown that he can hit the open shot. Williams offers nothing on D.
LOVE the Hackassan strategy late.
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
Saw Lance wasn't hitting his shots so he took him out.
Negatives - Still needs to get a better feel for the game. Post scoring seemed like it would have kept the game close, but he didn't bring Seraphin in until the second half.
Too much Amundson.
Williams is severely flawed, but still talented enough that maybe something will click with the right coaching and confidence.
Also, Amundson hustles but doesn't really accomplish anything. O'Quinn should be getting his minutes.
Apparently every Knick except for Zinger got in late from South Beach last night.
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
Rookie Comparison Page - ( New Window )
First game of the season they scored over 50 points and Fisher changed it the next game why?...he needs to find a consistent rotation until then this team will jot have a good bench
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Your down 20 go with a small offensive lineup and take your chances...Thomas for every good game he has played he plays 3/stinkers he is fools gold...he is not going to give you 10-12 points consistently...he is not a consistent player...
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
Watch him closely next game he doesn't fight through screens...he is always swithing
You're picking and choosing stats. Galloway was a -22. Highest +/- was Amundson at +6.
The bench got dominated in the second quarter, and the open looks we had we missed. It happens.
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In comment 12641518 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Your down 20 go with a small offensive lineup and take your chances...Thomas for every good game he has played he plays 3/stinkers he is fools gold...he is not going to give you 10-12 points consistently...he is not a consistent player...
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
Watch him closely next game he doesn't fight through screens...he is always swithing
I do watch him closely. And notice he only got 5 minutes because Fisher realized he was ineffective. Put your bias aside.
You're picking and choosing stats. Galloway was a -22. Highest +/- was Amundson at +6.
The bench got dominated in the second quarter, and the open looks we had we missed. It happens.
the game went from bad to worse when Thomas was out there. That was my only point. I'm not saying he's the reason they lost, but he's awful at basketball and shouldn't be getting regular minutes.
And, please god, don't let Thomas be one of them.
To be kind, Fisher's in-game substitution patterns are just bizarre, at least he is playing Zinger at the end of games now.
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You're picking and choosing stats. Galloway was a -22. Highest +/- was Amundson at +6.
The bench got dominated in the second quarter, and the open looks we had we missed. It happens.
the game went from bad to worse when Thomas was out there. That was my only point. I'm not saying he's the reason they lost, but he's awful at basketball and shouldn't be getting regular minutes.
He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
And yet, he got only 5 minutes in a game where he wasn't hitting his shots. I agree - ask him to do too much, and he's garbage. But as a defender, he's quite good. But he should only be on the floor if he's hitting the open looks, and he wasn't. Again, put your bias aside.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
Agreed. Seems like Fisher is using his rotation based on back of the bench players being "effective" in limited minutes. He seems stubborn in that regard. I think he'll only settle on a shorter rotation when he realizes that in the long run, those guys can't provide enough consistently.
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He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
And to start the season he was shooting well on 3s. He has cooled off. I've said in previous threads that he needs to get his shot consistent to be a viable option off the bench. This is part of the process. I think next year we'll see him be more effective on a consistent basis in that role.
Aspano are you a duke fan? You sure seem to have a lot of faith in lance Thomas improving his game
Completely agree with this. Vujacic and Amundson shouldn't be playing at all. But Williams has been crap on D, and Thomas has yet to find a consistent jumper. I'm open to them being in the rotation so long as they accomplish what they have to, but if they show an inability to do so then they need to be pulled. I think Fisher has been good with that so far. Only qualm I have is with Amundson getting KOQ's minutes.
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He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
There are things that happen that don't show up in the box score. Lance Thomas is a lot like Jared Jeffries lite, in the sense that most of what he does best doesn't show up there. Postingandtoasting had a nice breakdown of the stuff he's doing to get minutes the other day.
yeah, we discussed that "breakdown" here...it read like something out of the onion.
Certainly nobody that can keep up defensively.
Well, forgive me for puncturing a little of the KP balloon here, but our rookie had a rookie game. He lost his man on several back door plays and seemed a step behind and a bit lost on defense much of the night.
In Knicks' possessions the Heat came out high to challenge KP and he missed a bunch of shots when the game was getting away from Knicks.
And Whiteside's block on his short hook/layup gave me a whoa! moment.
He's smart, this will be part of the learning curve, but definitely not a "ho hum" night for KP.
Both KP and Mello shot around 30% and, as badly as they played, they were easily the best Knicks on the floor. It was just a stinker of a game. Fortunately it is a long season.
We are really struggling to shoot. 41.5%, ahead of only terrible teams in LAL and PHI. The good teams like MIA, SAS, and CLE are holding us under 40%. We're a work in progress. It's a multi-season rebuild.
I through out the idea of Thomas developing into a 3 and D player. But the D isnt quite there yet, and the 3 needs a lot more track record.
Every game he goes with something different, and you can not keep playing 13 players...
You want to play Lance Thomas minutes fine give him consistent minutes...
You want to play Derrick Williams and go small fine then play him consistnet minutes, do not play him 4 minutes in one game then the next play him 20...
Figure out your big rotation, with Seraphin and Oquinn on this team Amundson should be getting 0 minutes no reason for him to get minutes none...
Vujacic should never see the court, ever....
Players are not machines you cant just turn them on and off and expect them to perform...a player needs to know his role and his minutes, players do not play well in 5 minute spurts...
The bench was great the first couple of games and then all of sudden he had to change it to add Amundson and Seraphin....I do not understand why he did not stick with the bench from the beginning...
I through out the idea of Thomas developing into a 3 and D player. But the D isnt quite there yet, and the 3 needs a lot more track record.
This is true, Jeffries was a lot better, hence the "lite". I just think that's what Fisher is giving him the opportunity to do. He's hoping that Thomas can be a guy that you throw at a top scorer and he harrasses the shit out of them. There is no one else on the bench that profiles remotely like that. You need to have a guy like that for some matchups. Thomas actually did a nice job of harrassing Harden. He's super active.
Amundson is the same way. Fisher seems to like him over KOQ because KOQ is not a hustler on defense. His defensive strength is really only enforcing the no layup rule. Fisher clearly is rewarding activity. And the signal to guys like Seraphin and KOQ for Amundson or Early for Thomas is that they need to bring activity on defense to see the floor. They all bring more to the game offensively than Amundson and Thomas but they need to play both sides of the floor.
This is also why D. Williams is not getting many minutes.
Personally, I think they should be taking Afflalo out at the 6 minute mark in the first and replacing him with Galloway. A few minutes later you can take out Porzingis, and then sit Melo to start the 2nd quarter while bringing in Afflalo at the 3.
They need to have one of Melo, Porzingis and Afflalo on the court at all times. And KOQ really needs to get over what he's dealing with, because on the second unit he can be super effective as a passing big.
Personally, I think they should be taking Afflalo out at the 6 minute mark in the first and replacing him with Galloway. A few minutes later you can take out Porzingis, and then sit Melo to start the 2nd quarter while bringing in Afflalo at the 3.
They need to have one of Melo, Porzingis and Afflalo on the court at all times. And KOQ really needs to get over what he's dealing with, because on the second unit he can be super effective as a passing big.
Agree 100% with this but this doesnt work with Fisher's game plan of playing 12 guys...
There is no reason to not have 1 of our "big 3" on the court at all times...
Fisher for some reason always has to do hockey shifts, there is no reason to have 5 bench guys on the court at all...there is no reason for it..
I'm hoping he's just feeling out the rotation, and that he'll eventually turn to a 9 or 10 man rotation. If it is just a feeling out, then I have no problem with it, especially if it keeps us over .500. But if this is a strategy he intends to employ for the long haul, it will be an issue.
The guard rotation has largely worked out. Like all stars, Galloway is proving to be a little streaky. Grant is regressing. It's not just the defense. His shot off the drive is not a wild mess. With Fish, Calderon and Afflalo here to guide him, I hope that straightens out soon.
Someone needs to distinguish himself among the backup forwards. Seraphin is the center. 1.5 roles left IMO at the 3/4. Thomas as the primary backup, Williams as a change of pace low minute guy? Fine. Amundson should sit. Vuj get no minutes. Fish should experiment with Melo and Porz splitting up a bit more.
In games he plays more than 15 minutes he is averaging 8 and 8 and shooting 60%...
So why all of sudden was he taken out of the rotation for Lou amundson of all people?
Amundson should stay on the bench.
In games he plays more than 15 minutes he is averaging 8 and 8 and shooting 60%...
So why all of sudden was he taken out of the rotation for Lou amundson of all people?
Lou had two really good games. The question is why continued bad play hasnt cost him his spot in the rotation.
Agree with Aspano that KOQ didnt look good in the minutes I saw last night. Looked slow up and down the court. He believes that he is a lot more skilled than he is.
But is it really fair to judge a player who played 4 minutes? hwo can you honestly say a player is good or bad based on a 5 minute spurt...
You have seen what he can do when he gets minutes...
and you can play Koq and Seraphin at the same time...both can hit the mid range and both can play in the post...
They have 4 capable bigs, why not use it and force teams to adjust to them rather than constantly adjusting to what the other team is doing?
Lance thomas should not be the first big off the bench ...
It also looked good a couple of games ago in the 4th quarter when Seraphin was beasting in the paint...
Not that i know of...
Lopez needs to motivate himself to take the next step. I think he has it in him. He's never going to have great post moves because he isnt an uber athlete. But he could be more effective offensively given his package, smarts, and the fact that other guys draw more attention.
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That being said, he has shit the bed recently. In only a few minutes last night, the only thing I can remember him doing was trying a bounce pass in the paint that was stolen and taken the either way for a transition basket.
But is it really fair to judge a player who played 4 minutes? hwo can you honestly say a player is good or bad based on a 5 minute spurt...
You have seen what he can do when he gets minutes...
and you can play Koq and Seraphin at the same time...both can hit the mid range and both can play in the post...
But I've mentioned it before. Yes, it's only 5 minutes, but he looked bad in the second Milwaukee game, and he hasn't shown anything in the time he's gotten after that. You can't just assume that it's a matter of him playing 15 minutes that will make him look good.
The Sunday game went Seraphin went off was his first time off the bench in a few games. And he immediately had a positive effect, and that earned him more playing time. KOQ has done the opposite so far.
In the games he plays less he is awful...
So what does that tell you? He needs minutes to be effective...
Which brings me back to my entire point, Fisher needs to set the rotation already or this bench is going to continue to suck, he can not keep playing guys in 5 minute spurts it is not going to work...
If he wants to play Williams play him 15 minutes....if you are not going to play him 15 minutes do not play him at all...
Seraphin if you are going to play him 15 minutes or more than play him, if you are not then do not play him....
KOQ if you are going to play him play him 15 minutes or more, if you are not going to do that then do not play him...
Stop going 12, 13 men every fucking game and set your damn rotation already....15 games into the season and he can figure out his bench, it is getting ridiculous...
A hustle guy can play 5 minutes and be effective...
When they play more is when you get into trouble...
Guys like, Seraphin, Oquinn, Williams need minutes to get into a flow, if you are not going to give that to them then they are not going to be productive for you simple as that...
In the games he plays less he is awful...
So what does that tell you? He needs minutes to be effective...
Which brings me back to my entire point, Fisher needs to set the rotation already or this bench is going to continue to suck, he can not keep playing guys in 5 minute spurts it is not going to work...
If he wants to play Williams play him 15 minutes....if you are not going to play him 15 minutes do not play him at all...
Seraphin if you are going to play him 15 minutes or more than play him, if you are not then do not play him....
KOQ if you are going to play him play him 15 minutes or more, if you are not going to do that then do not play him...
Stop going 12, 13 men every fucking game and set your damn rotation already....15 games into the season and he can figure out his bench, it is getting ridiculous...
But what you're saying doesn't make sense. If you're going to be effective, you need to do it when you're out on the floor, whether it be 5 minutes or 15 minutes or 30 minutes.
And you're just using the 15 minutes thing without any reference to when it happened. In the beginning of the year he was getting more time and he was playing better. He then started to play poorly, which led to him getting fewer and fewer minutes.
The game before his minutes started getting cut he had 6 points 5 boards and 3 blocks...
Against Toronto he played 11 minutes had 6 points 6 boards 2 blocks...
he then had 11 minutes 6 points 6 boards and a block...
Then all of sudden he had only 3 minutes...
So again which game did he play bad tha the deserved his minutes cut?
If you had Melo come off th ebench and threw him out there for 4 minutes, do you think he would be effective? no he would look like shit because he wouldnt be able to get into the flow of the game...
Hustle players can play 4-5 minute spurts but that is about it...
Udonis Haslem played well on championship teams for the Heat and does not see minutes...you do not play players because they played hard for you in a previous season...it is the dumbest thing i have ever heard...
The game before his minutes started getting cut he had 6 points 5 boards and 3 blocks...
Against Toronto he played 11 minutes had 6 points 6 boards 2 blocks...
he then had 11 minutes 6 points 6 boards and a block...
Then all of sudden he had only 3 minutes...
So again which game did he play bad tha the deserved his minutes cut?
He started shitting it up in the Milwaukee game, when he threw up two ridiculous airballs - one of which missed by about three feet.
Yeah that is an awful game lets bench him...
Oh he shot 60% in that game also...
But what you're saying doesn't make sense. If you're going to be effective, you need to do it when you're out on the floor, whether it be 5 minutes or 15 minutes or 30 minutes.
And you're just using the 15 minutes thing without any reference to when it happened. In the beginning of the year he was getting more time and he was playing better. He then started to play poorly, which led to him getting fewer and fewer minutes.
I think players need minutes to get into a flow. Especially a young kid like Grant. It's really tough to get into a flow in 5-10 minutes total. Also people who get short shifted tend to press to justify playing time, making matters worse.
11 minutes 6 points 6 boards 1 block 67% from the field...
Next game 3 minutes...
Which player is playing better?
Per game
6 points
2 boards
43 percent from the field
or
5 points
5 boards
1 block
46%
2 boards
.5 blocks
50% from the field
Kyle oquinn is -8 for the season
It has to be about defense with both of them. Not that hard to consider that Thomas is probably better defensively and that's why.
It has to be about defense with both of them. Not that hard to consider that Thomas is probably better defensively and that's why.
What about +-?
Win shares?
How about defensive win shares?
That is why you go big and use your strength against the oppposing team, you do not go small with a team that is not built to go small...
Lance thomas -1.8 Kyle Oquinn +4.4
O'Quinn is a plodder, Thomas can guard multiple positions and on the perimeter. Seems pretty basic to me. And I like O'Quinn. I think he's a good piece to have in certain situations should they need to go big and physical.
Lance Thomas -30
Oquinn -8
Win shares Thomas .3 Oquinn .4
Defensive win shares Thomas .1 Oquinn .3
Per thomas 8.9 Oquinn 16.7
Win shares per 48 Thomas .55 Oquinn 1.03
Defensive rebound Thomas 7.3 Oquinn 21.6
Total rebound Thomas Thomas 5 Oquinn 17.3
Thomas at the 4 is killing the rebounding numbers...he is a horrible rebounder..
You cna get away with it with Melo at the 4 because he is a banger and can grab boards but with Thomas there the Knicks will continue to get killed on the glass...
O'Quinn looks like
GiantsUA : 11/10/2015 8:47 pm : link
he was out late.
KP - heating up, Melo filling it up, Grant going to school
The Toronto game is also where Amundson got his first minutes of the year.
It has nothing to do with "facts." Looking at stats blindly while not watching the game doesn't get you anywhere. Against Toronto KOQ got 11 minutes because he did nothing and was replaced in the second half by Seraphin.
Seraphin has shown in limited minutes after being benched that he could adjust, and his minutes started to increase again. Amundson did the same. O'Quinn hasn't.
Do I think Fisher should stick with him so he straightens himself out? Yes, I do. Or at the very least, bring in Seraphin instead, rather than bringing in back of the bench guys like Amundson. But it is pretty clear that Fisher will take a guy out as soon as he sees him playing like crap. And O'Quinn hasn't done much of anything since then.
he had 6 and 6 with a couple of blocks...
then all of sudden his minutes were cut for Lou Amundson....
I watch every single game every minute, and there is absolutely no reason for Lou Amundson to be getting more minutes than Kyle Oquinn, none...
He was benched for a guy who played hard for Fisher last season and that is why he was benched, those are fisher's words not mine...he said that Amundson and thomas are getting minutes because they played hard for him last season...it is the dumbest thing i have every heard...
not to mention the start of the seaosn where he was easily the best big on the court...
It makes no sense that Oquinn is not getting minutes...
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
Of Course you cna compare them they both play the same position and if they are playing the same position they should come to the same scrutiny, Thomas is a horrible rebounder and the Knicks are getting killed on the boards when they go small but
Seriously man just stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you...
it is ludicrous to me that anyone can think Lance Thomas is better than Kyle Oquinn....
We are never going to agree on this and that is fine, agree to disagree...
Fisher is never going to get this team anywhere as long as he keeps playing 12-13 guys each game...
If Fisher does not come to a set rotation this bench will continue to suck....
Vujacic, Thomas and Amundson should never see the court....
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Thomas at the 4 with O'Quinn at the 4 is ludicrous. Thomas is in for man to man defense since he can guard the 2-4 positions. Does O'Quinn have that responsibility?
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
Of Course you cna compare them they both play the same position and if they are playing the same position they should come to the same scrutiny, Thomas is a horrible rebounder and the Knicks are getting killed on the boards when they go small but
Seriously man just stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you...
it is ludicrous to me that anyone can think Lance Thomas is better than Kyle Oquinn....
We are never going to agree on this and that is fine, agree to disagree...
Lance Thomas is not better than O'Quinn, I think that's pretty obvious.
Lance Thomas is useful in certain situations for man-to-man defensive purposes.
Now, if you compare O'Quinn to Amundson, which is more reasonable because they're asked to do similar things, then that's fair. I don't think anyone would say that Amundson should be in over O'Quinn.
But if you are going to tell me that Lance Thomas is getting 20+ minutes a night at the 4 over Oquinn no i am not ok with that...
There is no way Lance Thomas should be getting 20 minutes a night i am sorry there is no way he should be getting that many minutes....
I am sure he is a nice guy and good locker room guy but he is not good enough to be playing that many minutes...
But if you are going to tell me that Lance Thomas is getting 20+ minutes a night at the 4 over Oquinn no i am not ok with that...
There is no way Lance Thomas should be getting 20 minutes a night i am sorry there is no way he should be getting that many minutes....
I am sure he is a nice guy and good locker room guy but he is not good enough to be playing that many minutes...
I think we're actually in agreement, for the most part. To me, the consistent rotation needs to be this:
RoLo
Porzingis
Melo
Afflalo
Calderon
Galloway
Grant
Seraphin
O'Quinn
Williams should be used sparingly when you need offense i.e. when they're behind and the second unit is looking to run.
Thomas should be used sparingly when you need defense and/or the other team is going small.
Those last two guys need to have an extremely short leash if they're not getting it done. Meaning, if Williams isn't getting baskets, or Thomas is missing his open shots (which happened last night).
O'Quinn needs to be able to play through slumps and figure it out, because talent-wise he's better than Thomas and Amundson. Unfortunately, Fisher doesn't let him do that.
He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.
He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.
Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?
Show me where he's underachieving.
What argument?
i am also of the belief that this team is best when they go big, they are built to go big....
this is how i would do the rotation:
calderon 22/Grant 18/ Galloway 8
Afflalo 30/ Galloway 18
Melo 33/ Williams 15
Porzingis 30/ Oquinn 18
Lopez 26/ Seraphin 20/Oquinn 2
Obviously it is those minutes are rough minutes based on flow of the game...
Thomas gets spot minutes for defensive pruposes...
Quote:
Remember when we were all talking about how deep this team was and what an asset the bench was? And remember our first couple of games where the bench was the Knicks strength? Well Fisher has taken the teams strength and turned it into a huge weakness.
He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.
Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?
I disagree, i think this bench could be a very good bench if Fisher cna shorten it and give guys consistent minutes...
right now it is so disjointed no one knows when their minutes are coming...
the only guy with consistent minutes right now off the bench is Galloway
i am also of the belief that this team is best when they go big, they are built to go big....
this is how i would do the rotation:
calderon 22/Grant 18/ Galloway 8
Afflalo 30/ Galloway 18
Melo 33/ Williams 15
Porzingis 30/ Oquinn 18
Lopez 26/ Seraphin 20/Oquinn 2
Obviously it is those minutes are rough minutes based on flow of the game...
Thomas gets spot minutes for defensive pruposes...
I agree with this for the most part. My only beef is that Williams hasn't proved himself to be effective when the team hasn't been able to run. So if anything, I'd probably up some minutes across the board to make up for Williams, and instead have Afflalo at the 3 with the second unit to give it some scoring punch when neither Melo or Porzingis are in.
If during a game he is really struggling you come back with afflalo or give spot minutes to Thomas...
If during a game he is really struggling you come back with afflalo or give spot minutes to Thomas...
I'm hoping Williams can prove me wrong, but he seems to me to have trouble playing within the offense. Afflalo seems to be quite adept at that, and while he's not nearly as athletic as Williams, he seems to be able to provide something in transition as well.
I disagree, i think this bench could be a very good bench if Fisher cna shorten it and give guys consistent minutes...
right now it is so disjointed no one knows when their minutes are coming...
the only guy with consistent minutes right now off the bench is Galloway
The guards could be better than average. Im just not buying the bench forwards. Figure we have Seraphim, KOQ, Williams, and Thomas (plus pieces). Here are some other East bench forwards:
Cle: Thompson, Varejao, Jefferson
CHI: Taj, Noah, Portis
Indy: Hill, Buddinger
Mia: Amare, Winslow, McRoberts
Atl: Sefolosha, Splitter
Wash: Nene, Blair, Dudley
Bos: Olynyk, Lee, Turner
Orl: Gordon, Frye
I dont know that I've seen all those guys this year. But generally, each of those teams has someone who for the next 65 games, salary aside, I'd take over any of our bench forwards (maybe not Indy or Miami?). Many have two really solid bench bigs. We have more of the cast off variety.
Hope they make me eat these words!
NY Receives:
Noah
Jeff Green
Mirotic
Portis
Mcdormet
Memphis Receives:
Rose
Williams
Chicago 1st rounders
Chicago Receives:
Melo
Lopez
Conley
Memphis is at huge risk of losing Conley so they can still get some value for him and Rose coming back to Memphis makes for a good narrative and a chance to revive his career. I think part of the reason why they traded for Chalmers is out of fear of Conley dipping.
Also, a team of Conley, Butler, Melo, Pau, Lopez, Taj, Dunleavy and Snell I'd say is ready to challenge the Cavs right away.
He's actually doing pretty well individually. Killed Towns last night.
JO v KAT highlights - ( New Window )
Quote:
Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?
I disagree, i think this bench could be a very good bench if Fisher cna shorten it and give guys consistent minutes...
right now it is so disjointed no one knows when their minutes are coming...
the only guy with consistent minutes right now off the bench is Galloway
The guards could be better than average. Im just not buying the bench forwards. Figure we have Seraphim, KOQ, Williams, and Thomas (plus pieces). Here are some other East bench forwards:
Cle: Thompson, Varejao, Jefferson
CHI: Taj, Noah, Portis
Indy: Hill, Buddinger
Mia: Amare, Winslow, McRoberts
Atl: Sefolosha, Splitter
Wash: Nene, Blair, Dudley
Bos: Olynyk, Lee, Turner
Orl: Gordon, Frye
I dont know that I've seen all those guys this year. But generally, each of those teams has someone who for the next 65 games, salary aside, I'd take over any of our bench forwards (maybe not Indy or Miami?). Many have two really solid bench bigs. We have more of the cast off variety.
Hope they make me eat these words!
Seraphin is really hit or miss. Beginning of the year he was a black hole on offense, but he's done a nice job adjusting. I liked seeing him in the second half last night because I thought the only way we would be able to come back was by having a threat in the post. Unfortunately he wasn't hitting those shots.
I'm also 99% sure O'Quinn told Fisher he was fucked up for messing with his boy Matt Barnes. That's pretty much the only explanation.
NY Receives:
Noah
Jeff Green
Mirotic
Portis
Mcdormet
Memphis Receives:
Rose
Williams
Chicago 1st rounders
Chicago Receives:
Melo
Lopez
Conley
Memphis is at huge risk of losing Conley so they can still get some value for him and Rose coming back to Memphis makes for a good narrative and a chance to revive his career. I think part of the reason why they traded for Chalmers is out of fear of Conley dipping.
Also, a team of Conley, Butler, Melo, Pau, Lopez, Taj, Dunleavy and Snell I'd say is ready to challenge the Cavs right away.
Isiah, is that you?
I feel like my number is 2. Crazy?
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
Now that Okafor is ruined, let's see how fast the Sixers can ruin Ben Simmons.
He's actually doing pretty well individually. Killed Towns last night. JO v KAT highlights - ( New Window )
Okafor showing some nice moves there.
Fix the bench! - ( New Window )
I haven't changed that view.
If I were Hinkie I don't even think I'd trade Okafor for Russell, clarkson and Randle to be honest.
[quote] I think starting Galloway in place of Afflalo is actually a pretty good idea... Fix the bench! - ( New Window ) [/quote
I do as well.
I haven't changed that view.
He may never be a good defender, but you're right, with his size and shot blocking he can be alright on defense. Pick and roll defense may be an issue but he can become serviceable eventually. Everyone overreacts during the draft and assumes that Okafor and Russell will be the worst defenders in the entire league, but I'd be shocked if there weren't worse defensive rookies that came into the league and developed into average defenders.
I still cant get passed the bigger picture problem, ie the Chinese Firedrill approach to substitution. Swapping out everyone as a 5 man unit is just madness. It's 5 guys who cant start on a bubble playoff team -- sure lets put them all out together. Regardless of whether LeBron is still in the game (oh, it happened).
As for Afflalo, I wouldnt put him in the Melo/Porz group. Not all that sure that Afflalo can consistently get off his shot. Grant can, but his game is poo poo (coach speak) right now. IMO we should consider having one of Melo/Porz out at all times. This is the real value of a JR Smith type -- he can be instant offense off the bench.