Positives - Fisher showed he can be tactical by fouling Whiteside with 4 minutes left.
Saw Lance wasn't hitting his shots so he took him out.
Negatives - Still needs to get a better feel for the game. Post scoring seemed like it would have kept the game close, but he didn't bring Seraphin in until the second half.
Too much Amundson.
Thomas played surprisingly effective defense on Harden the other
Your down 20 go with a small offensive lineup and take your chances...Thomas for every good game he has played he plays 3/stinkers he is fools gold...he is not going to give you 10-12 points consistently...he is not a consistent player...
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
in a while just for comparison and fun's sake, the link is just a comparison of the most notable picks in this past NBA draft. Which seems to be a bonanza of quality at the top of the draft. Rookie Comparison Page - ( New Window )
As long as fisher keeps changing it every game... NBA players need to know their role and what their minutes are going to be right now no bench players knows what their minutes are going to be...the inconsistency is killing this bench...
First game of the season they scored over 50 points and Fisher changed it the next game why?...he needs to find a consistent rotation until then this team will jot have a good bench
Your down 20 go with a small offensive lineup and take your chances...Thomas for every good game he has played he plays 3/stinkers he is fools gold...he is not going to give you 10-12 points consistently...he is not a consistent player...
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
Watch him closely next game he doesn't fight through screens...he is always swithing
was among the most embarrassing things I've seen in an NBA game. I still can't believe that actually happened. He was also on the crew that awarded the pacers nearly 50 free throws in game 6 in 2013. Oh, and he's a convicted felon. So fuck him.
Your down 20 go with a small offensive lineup and take your chances...Thomas for every good game he has played he plays 3/stinkers he is fools gold...he is not going to give you 10-12 points consistently...he is not a consistent player...
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
Watch him closely next game he doesn't fight through screens...he is always swithing
I do watch him closely. And notice he only got 5 minutes because Fisher realized he was ineffective. Put your bias aside.
You're picking and choosing stats. Galloway was a -22. Highest +/- was Amundson at +6.
The bench got dominated in the second quarter, and the open looks we had we missed. It happens.
the game went from bad to worse when Thomas was out there. That was my only point. I'm not saying he's the reason they lost, but he's awful at basketball and shouldn't be getting regular minutes.
You're picking and choosing stats. Galloway was a -22. Highest +/- was Amundson at +6.
The bench got dominated in the second quarter, and the open looks we had we missed. It happens.
the game went from bad to worse when Thomas was out there. That was my only point. I'm not saying he's the reason they lost, but he's awful at basketball and shouldn't be getting regular minutes.
He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
of the bench. They weren't winning tonight regardless (they missed a ton of open looks), but we're far enough into the season where at least a few of the guys should have better defined roles. All we know for sure is that Galloway is going to get solid minutes and Early isn't going to play at all. ANYTHING else is possible from game to game.
The guy wouldn't be in the NBA if Knicks didn't sign him... He is the worst 20 minutes per game player in the league...he is awful
And yet, he got only 5 minutes in a game where he wasn't hitting his shots. I agree - ask him to do too much, and he's garbage. But as a defender, he's quite good. But he should only be on the floor if he's hitting the open looks, and he wasn't. Again, put your bias aside.
He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
of the bench. They weren't winning tonight regardless (they missed a ton of open looks), but we're far enough into the season where at least a few of the guys should have better defined roles. All we know for sure is that Galloway is going to get solid minutes and Early isn't going to play at all. ANYTHING else is possible from game to game.
Agreed. Seems like Fisher is using his rotation based on back of the bench players being "effective" in limited minutes. He seems stubborn in that regard. I think he'll only settle on a shorter rotation when he realizes that in the long run, those guys can't provide enough consistently.
He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
And to start the season he was shooting well on 3s. He has cooled off. I've said in previous threads that he needs to get his shot consistent to be a viable option off the bench. This is part of the process. I think next year we'll see him be more effective on a consistent basis in that role.
And I will say that I thought Thomas was nonsense last year, and I was pissed to see him at the beginning of this year. But he has shown that he is more than capable on D, and it's a matter of him being consistent with his shot. He is MUCH improved this year, and I think with another year, he could be a viable guy as far as providing D and hitting open jumpers. This is the way you build a 3 and D player - take a low cost guy who shows something on defense and teach him to shoot, rather than paying 10 mill for a guy who does the same shit but a little bit better.
and their team is probably deeper than ours. I'm willing to chalk up some of this to early season mixing and matching, lots of games clustered together against good teams, etc., but the amount of guys getting minutes is unheard of at this level. Second team should be Grant, Gallo, O'Quinn, Seraphin and either Lance or Williams. Lou and Sasha should never take their warm-ups off unless it's a 20-point game in the fourth. Back when the Knicks were good, it was an event when Herb Williams or Rick Brunson ever got playing time - now we're emptying the bench every night by halftime.
and their team is probably deeper than ours. I'm willing to chalk up some of this to early season mixing and matching, lots of games clustered together against good teams, etc., but the amount of guys getting minutes is unheard of at this level. Second team should be Grant, Gallo, O'Quinn, Seraphin and either Lance or Williams. Lou and Sasha should never take their warm-ups off unless it's a 20-point game in the fourth. Back when the Knicks were good, it was an event when Herb Williams or Rick Brunson ever got playing time - now we're emptying the bench every night by halftime.
Completely agree with this. Vujacic and Amundson shouldn't be playing at all. But Williams has been crap on D, and Thomas has yet to find a consistent jumper. I'm open to them being in the rotation so long as they accomplish what they have to, but if they show an inability to do so then they need to be pulled. I think Fisher has been good with that so far. Only qualm I have is with Amundson getting KOQ's minutes.
He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
There are things that happen that don't show up in the box score. Lance Thomas is a lot like Jared Jeffries lite, in the sense that most of what he does best doesn't show up there. Postingandtoasting had a nice breakdown of the stuff he's doing to get minutes the other day.
Well, forgive me for puncturing a little of the KP balloon here, but our rookie had a rookie game. He lost his man on several back door plays and seemed a step behind and a bit lost on defense much of the night.
In Knicks' possessions the Heat came out high to challenge KP and he missed a bunch of shots when the game was getting away from Knicks.
And Whiteside's block on his short hook/layup gave me a whoa! moment.
He's smart, this will be part of the learning curve, but definitely not a "ho hum" night for KP.
the problem wasn't him or coaching. The Knicks couldn't hit a shot last night. They were short, short, short. While Miami plays good defense, the Knicks were stone cold on open looks. Maybe rushing in anticipation of the defense.
Both KP and Mello shot around 30% and, as badly as they played, they were easily the best Knicks on the floor. It was just a stinker of a game. Fortunately it is a long season.
it was just an ugly game. We are a jump shooting team, and sometimes teams like that are going to put up stinkers. We shot 32.2% (MIA shot 38.3%). Their defense isnt hold someone to 32.2% good.
We are really struggling to shoot. 41.5%, ahead of only terrible teams in LAL and PHI. The good teams like MIA, SAS, and CLE are holding us under 40%. We're a work in progress. It's a multi-season rebuild.
Thomas has a long way to go before sniffing Jeffries' jock defensively. And Jeffries was a bad player. He's a guy who makes a coach look not bad (because he could lockdown a star) while really doing a lot to lose you the game because he was a zero offensively. Advanced stats underrate defensive specialists (see Bell, Bowen). But Jeffries really stunk offensively.
I through out the idea of Thomas developing into a 3 and D player. But the D isnt quite there yet, and the 3 needs a lot more track record.
Until this coach comes out with a consistent rotation
this bench is going to be bad...you can not keep playing players in 5 minute spurts and it not only changes game to game, it changes half to half...
Every game he goes with something different, and you can not keep playing 13 players...
You want to play Lance Thomas minutes fine give him consistent minutes...
You want to play Derrick Williams and go small fine then play him consistnet minutes, do not play him 4 minutes in one game then the next play him 20...
Figure out your big rotation, with Seraphin and Oquinn on this team Amundson should be getting 0 minutes no reason for him to get minutes none...
Vujacic should never see the court, ever....
Players are not machines you cant just turn them on and off and expect them to perform...a player needs to know his role and his minutes, players do not play well in 5 minute spurts...
and the coach still can not figure out his rotation, it is geting ridiculous at this point...
The bench was great the first couple of games and then all of sudden he had to change it to add Amundson and Seraphin....I do not understand why he did not stick with the bench from the beginning...
Thomas has a long way to go before sniffing Jeffries' jock defensively. And Jeffries was a bad player. He's a guy who makes a coach look not bad (because he could lockdown a star) while really doing a lot to lose you the game because he was a zero offensively. Advanced stats underrate defensive specialists (see Bell, Bowen). But Jeffries really stunk offensively.
I through out the idea of Thomas developing into a 3 and D player. But the D isnt quite there yet, and the 3 needs a lot more track record.
This is true, Jeffries was a lot better, hence the "lite". I just think that's what Fisher is giving him the opportunity to do. He's hoping that Thomas can be a guy that you throw at a top scorer and he harrasses the shit out of them. There is no one else on the bench that profiles remotely like that. You need to have a guy like that for some matchups. Thomas actually did a nice job of harrassing Harden. He's super active.
Amundson is the same way. Fisher seems to like him over KOQ because KOQ is not a hustler on defense. His defensive strength is really only enforcing the no layup rule. Fisher clearly is rewarding activity. And the signal to guys like Seraphin and KOQ for Amundson or Early for Thomas is that they need to bring activity on defense to see the floor. They all bring more to the game offensively than Amundson and Thomas but they need to play both sides of the floor.
This is also why D. Williams is not getting many minutes.
Is amundson is only hustle...you can not have 2 guys who are inept on offense on the floor at the same time...add grants shooting struggles and it makes the bench shit...
There really isn't anyone on the bench who is or can be a scorer. The closest thing would be Williams, but he hasn't shown that he can consistently play within the offense.
Personally, I think they should be taking Afflalo out at the 6 minute mark in the first and replacing him with Galloway. A few minutes later you can take out Porzingis, and then sit Melo to start the 2nd quarter while bringing in Afflalo at the 3.
They need to have one of Melo, Porzingis and Afflalo on the court at all times. And KOQ really needs to get over what he's dealing with, because on the second unit he can be super effective as a passing big.
There really isn't anyone on the bench who is or can be a scorer. The closest thing would be Williams, but he hasn't shown that he can consistently play within the offense.
Personally, I think they should be taking Afflalo out at the 6 minute mark in the first and replacing him with Galloway. A few minutes later you can take out Porzingis, and then sit Melo to start the 2nd quarter while bringing in Afflalo at the 3.
They need to have one of Melo, Porzingis and Afflalo on the court at all times. And KOQ really needs to get over what he's dealing with, because on the second unit he can be super effective as a passing big.
Agree 100% with this but this doesnt work with Fisher's game plan of playing 12 guys...
There is no reason to not have 1 of our "big 3" on the court at all times...
Fisher for some reason always has to do hockey shifts, there is no reason to have 5 bench guys on the court at all...there is no reason for it..
to "stretch" the rotation to rest guys for later in the season...
I'm hoping he's just feeling out the rotation, and that he'll eventually turn to a 9 or 10 man rotation. If it is just a feeling out, then I have no problem with it, especially if it keeps us over .500. But if this is a strategy he intends to employ for the long haul, it will be an issue.
I dont have a big problem with Thomas at this point
I dont even have such a problem with KOQ sitting. Maybe he's a bad fit and/or Fish doesnt like his defensive effort or shot selection.
The guard rotation has largely worked out. Like all stars, Galloway is proving to be a little streaky. Grant is regressing. It's not just the defense. His shot off the drive is not a wild mess. With Fish, Calderon and Afflalo here to guide him, I hope that straightens out soon.
Someone needs to distinguish himself among the backup forwards. Seraphin is the center. 1.5 roles left IMO at the 3/4. Thomas as the primary backup, Williams as a change of pace low minute guy? Fine. Amundson should sit. Vuj get no minutes. Fish should experiment with Melo and Porz splitting up a bit more.
That being said, he has shit the bed recently. In only a few minutes last night, the only thing I can remember him doing was trying a bounce pass in the paint that was stolen and taken the either way for a transition basket.
Saw Lance wasn't hitting his shots so he took him out.
Negatives - Still needs to get a better feel for the game. Post scoring seemed like it would have kept the game close, but he didn't bring Seraphin in until the second half.
Too much Amundson.
Williams is severely flawed, but still talented enough that maybe something will click with the right coaching and confidence.
Also, Amundson hustles but doesn't really accomplish anything. O'Quinn should be getting his minutes.
Apparently every Knick except for Zinger got in late from South Beach last night.
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
Rookie Comparison Page - ( New Window )
First game of the season they scored over 50 points and Fisher changed it the next game why?...he needs to find a consistent rotation until then this team will jot have a good bench
Quote:
Your down 20 go with a small offensive lineup and take your chances...Thomas for every good game he has played he plays 3/stinkers he is fools gold...he is not going to give you 10-12 points consistently...he is not a consistent player...
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
Watch him closely next game he doesn't fight through screens...he is always swithing
You're picking and choosing stats. Galloway was a -22. Highest +/- was Amundson at +6.
The bench got dominated in the second quarter, and the open looks we had we missed. It happens.
Quote:
In comment 12641518 nygiants16 said:
Quote:
Your down 20 go with a small offensive lineup and take your chances...Thomas for every good game he has played he plays 3/stinkers he is fools gold...he is not going to give you 10-12 points consistently...he is not a consistent player...
And watch his defense he doesn't fight through screens he switches on everything g
What? He was fighting through screens consistently against Houston.
Watch him closely next game he doesn't fight through screens...he is always swithing
I do watch him closely. And notice he only got 5 minutes because Fisher realized he was ineffective. Put your bias aside.
You're picking and choosing stats. Galloway was a -22. Highest +/- was Amundson at +6.
The bench got dominated in the second quarter, and the open looks we had we missed. It happens.
the game went from bad to worse when Thomas was out there. That was my only point. I'm not saying he's the reason they lost, but he's awful at basketball and shouldn't be getting regular minutes.
And, please god, don't let Thomas be one of them.
To be kind, Fisher's in-game substitution patterns are just bizarre, at least he is playing Zinger at the end of games now.
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You're picking and choosing stats. Galloway was a -22. Highest +/- was Amundson at +6.
The bench got dominated in the second quarter, and the open looks we had we missed. It happens.
the game went from bad to worse when Thomas was out there. That was my only point. I'm not saying he's the reason they lost, but he's awful at basketball and shouldn't be getting regular minutes.
He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
And yet, he got only 5 minutes in a game where he wasn't hitting his shots. I agree - ask him to do too much, and he's garbage. But as a defender, he's quite good. But he should only be on the floor if he's hitting the open looks, and he wasn't. Again, put your bias aside.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
Agreed. Seems like Fisher is using his rotation based on back of the bench players being "effective" in limited minutes. He seems stubborn in that regard. I think he'll only settle on a shorter rotation when he realizes that in the long run, those guys can't provide enough consistently.
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He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
And to start the season he was shooting well on 3s. He has cooled off. I've said in previous threads that he needs to get his shot consistent to be a viable option off the bench. This is part of the process. I think next year we'll see him be more effective on a consistent basis in that role.
Aspano are you a duke fan? You sure seem to have a lot of faith in lance Thomas improving his game
Completely agree with this. Vujacic and Amundson shouldn't be playing at all. But Williams has been crap on D, and Thomas has yet to find a consistent jumper. I'm open to them being in the rotation so long as they accomplish what they have to, but if they show an inability to do so then they need to be pulled. I think Fisher has been good with that so far. Only qualm I have is with Amundson getting KOQ's minutes.
Quote:
He's only effective as a 3 and D player, and that's if he's hitting his shots. He wasn't, so he got pulled.
3 and D? Thomas has 15 career 3 pointers. You have a to have a little more of a track record than that (a lot more) to be considered a viable threat from that range. Career PER of 8.9 tells me he simply doesn't accomplish very much out on the court.
There are things that happen that don't show up in the box score. Lance Thomas is a lot like Jared Jeffries lite, in the sense that most of what he does best doesn't show up there. Postingandtoasting had a nice breakdown of the stuff he's doing to get minutes the other day.
yeah, we discussed that "breakdown" here...it read like something out of the onion.
Certainly nobody that can keep up defensively.
Well, forgive me for puncturing a little of the KP balloon here, but our rookie had a rookie game. He lost his man on several back door plays and seemed a step behind and a bit lost on defense much of the night.
In Knicks' possessions the Heat came out high to challenge KP and he missed a bunch of shots when the game was getting away from Knicks.
And Whiteside's block on his short hook/layup gave me a whoa! moment.
He's smart, this will be part of the learning curve, but definitely not a "ho hum" night for KP.
Both KP and Mello shot around 30% and, as badly as they played, they were easily the best Knicks on the floor. It was just a stinker of a game. Fortunately it is a long season.
We are really struggling to shoot. 41.5%, ahead of only terrible teams in LAL and PHI. The good teams like MIA, SAS, and CLE are holding us under 40%. We're a work in progress. It's a multi-season rebuild.
I through out the idea of Thomas developing into a 3 and D player. But the D isnt quite there yet, and the 3 needs a lot more track record.
Every game he goes with something different, and you can not keep playing 13 players...
You want to play Lance Thomas minutes fine give him consistent minutes...
You want to play Derrick Williams and go small fine then play him consistnet minutes, do not play him 4 minutes in one game then the next play him 20...
Figure out your big rotation, with Seraphin and Oquinn on this team Amundson should be getting 0 minutes no reason for him to get minutes none...
Vujacic should never see the court, ever....
Players are not machines you cant just turn them on and off and expect them to perform...a player needs to know his role and his minutes, players do not play well in 5 minute spurts...
The bench was great the first couple of games and then all of sudden he had to change it to add Amundson and Seraphin....I do not understand why he did not stick with the bench from the beginning...
I through out the idea of Thomas developing into a 3 and D player. But the D isnt quite there yet, and the 3 needs a lot more track record.
This is true, Jeffries was a lot better, hence the "lite". I just think that's what Fisher is giving him the opportunity to do. He's hoping that Thomas can be a guy that you throw at a top scorer and he harrasses the shit out of them. There is no one else on the bench that profiles remotely like that. You need to have a guy like that for some matchups. Thomas actually did a nice job of harrassing Harden. He's super active.
Amundson is the same way. Fisher seems to like him over KOQ because KOQ is not a hustler on defense. His defensive strength is really only enforcing the no layup rule. Fisher clearly is rewarding activity. And the signal to guys like Seraphin and KOQ for Amundson or Early for Thomas is that they need to bring activity on defense to see the floor. They all bring more to the game offensively than Amundson and Thomas but they need to play both sides of the floor.
This is also why D. Williams is not getting many minutes.
Personally, I think they should be taking Afflalo out at the 6 minute mark in the first and replacing him with Galloway. A few minutes later you can take out Porzingis, and then sit Melo to start the 2nd quarter while bringing in Afflalo at the 3.
They need to have one of Melo, Porzingis and Afflalo on the court at all times. And KOQ really needs to get over what he's dealing with, because on the second unit he can be super effective as a passing big.
Personally, I think they should be taking Afflalo out at the 6 minute mark in the first and replacing him with Galloway. A few minutes later you can take out Porzingis, and then sit Melo to start the 2nd quarter while bringing in Afflalo at the 3.
They need to have one of Melo, Porzingis and Afflalo on the court at all times. And KOQ really needs to get over what he's dealing with, because on the second unit he can be super effective as a passing big.
Agree 100% with this but this doesnt work with Fisher's game plan of playing 12 guys...
There is no reason to not have 1 of our "big 3" on the court at all times...
Fisher for some reason always has to do hockey shifts, there is no reason to have 5 bench guys on the court at all...there is no reason for it..
I'm hoping he's just feeling out the rotation, and that he'll eventually turn to a 9 or 10 man rotation. If it is just a feeling out, then I have no problem with it, especially if it keeps us over .500. But if this is a strategy he intends to employ for the long haul, it will be an issue.
The guard rotation has largely worked out. Like all stars, Galloway is proving to be a little streaky. Grant is regressing. It's not just the defense. His shot off the drive is not a wild mess. With Fish, Calderon and Afflalo here to guide him, I hope that straightens out soon.
Someone needs to distinguish himself among the backup forwards. Seraphin is the center. 1.5 roles left IMO at the 3/4. Thomas as the primary backup, Williams as a change of pace low minute guy? Fine. Amundson should sit. Vuj get no minutes. Fish should experiment with Melo and Porz splitting up a bit more.
In games he plays more than 15 minutes he is averaging 8 and 8 and shooting 60%...
So why all of sudden was he taken out of the rotation for Lou amundson of all people?
Amundson should stay on the bench.