if he didnt play so well when he actually gets minutes...
In games he plays more than 15 minutes he is averaging 8 and 8 and shooting 60%...
So why all of sudden was he taken out of the rotation for Lou amundson of all people?
Lou had two really good games. The question is why continued bad play hasnt cost him his spot in the rotation.
Agree with Aspano that KOQ didnt look good in the minutes I saw last night. Looked slow up and down the court. He believes that he is a lot more skilled than he is.
That being said, he has shit the bed recently. In only a few minutes last night, the only thing I can remember him doing was trying a bounce pass in the paint that was stolen and taken the either way for a transition basket.
But is it really fair to judge a player who played 4 minutes? hwo can you honestly say a player is good or bad based on a 5 minute spurt...
You have seen what he can do when he gets minutes...
and you can play Koq and Seraphin at the same time...both can hit the mid range and both can play in the post...
we're trying to figure out what works for an incomplete team. We need people scoring closer to the basket. Grant and Lopez in particular.
Lopez needs to motivate himself to take the next step. I think he has it in him. He's never going to have great post moves because he isnt an uber athlete. But he could be more effective offensively given his package, smarts, and the fact that other guys draw more attention.
RE: RE: KOQ needs to be able to work out of his funk
That being said, he has shit the bed recently. In only a few minutes last night, the only thing I can remember him doing was trying a bounce pass in the paint that was stolen and taken the either way for a transition basket.
But is it really fair to judge a player who played 4 minutes? hwo can you honestly say a player is good or bad based on a 5 minute spurt...
You have seen what he can do when he gets minutes...
and you can play Koq and Seraphin at the same time...both can hit the mid range and both can play in the post...
But I've mentioned it before. Yes, it's only 5 minutes, but he looked bad in the second Milwaukee game, and he hasn't shown anything in the time he's gotten after that. You can't just assume that it's a matter of him playing 15 minutes that will make him look good.
The Sunday game went Seraphin went off was his first time off the bench in a few games. And he immediately had a positive effect, and that earned him more playing time. KOQ has done the opposite so far.
I'm certainly not giving up on him, but I fear Fisher's gonna banish him soon, like Early and O'Quinn. He needs a double-digit scoring game in the worst way.
In the games he plays 15 minutes or more he plays very well...
In the games he plays less he is awful...
So what does that tell you? He needs minutes to be effective...
Which brings me back to my entire point, Fisher needs to set the rotation already or this bench is going to continue to suck, he can not keep playing guys in 5 minute spurts it is not going to work...
If he wants to play Williams play him 15 minutes....if you are not going to play him 15 minutes do not play him at all...
Seraphin if you are going to play him 15 minutes or more than play him, if you are not then do not play him....
KOQ if you are going to play him play him 15 minutes or more, if you are not going to do that then do not play him...
Stop going 12, 13 men every fucking game and set your damn rotation already....15 games into the season and he can figure out his bench, it is getting ridiculous...
that can go in 5 minute spurts are Thomas and Amundson because they are hustle guys, that is all they do...
A hustle guy can play 5 minutes and be effective...
When they play more is when you get into trouble...
Guys like, Seraphin, Oquinn, Williams need minutes to get into a flow, if you are not going to give that to them then they are not going to be productive for you simple as that...
In the games he plays 15 minutes or more he plays very well...
In the games he plays less he is awful...
So what does that tell you? He needs minutes to be effective...
Which brings me back to my entire point, Fisher needs to set the rotation already or this bench is going to continue to suck, he can not keep playing guys in 5 minute spurts it is not going to work...
If he wants to play Williams play him 15 minutes....if you are not going to play him 15 minutes do not play him at all...
Seraphin if you are going to play him 15 minutes or more than play him, if you are not then do not play him....
KOQ if you are going to play him play him 15 minutes or more, if you are not going to do that then do not play him...
Stop going 12, 13 men every fucking game and set your damn rotation already....15 games into the season and he can figure out his bench, it is getting ridiculous...
But what you're saying doesn't make sense. If you're going to be effective, you need to do it when you're out on the floor, whether it be 5 minutes or 15 minutes or 30 minutes.
And you're just using the 15 minutes thing without any reference to when it happened. In the beginning of the year he was getting more time and he was playing better. He then started to play poorly, which led to him getting fewer and fewer minutes.
more than anyone else is someone I think who needs minutes to be effective. He's getting thrown out there at end of quarters with not much talent around him so he's bound to force up shots. Calderon/Galloway are both playing pretty well so he's not gonna get minutes unless one of them struggles or if they are playing in a blow out.
no you can not expect a player to go out and play 4 minutes and be effective, you can not get into a flow of the game when you do that to players...
If you had Melo come off th ebench and threw him out there for 4 minutes, do you think he would be effective? no he would look like shit because he wouldnt be able to get into the flow of the game...
Hustle players can play 4-5 minute spurts but that is about it...
because they played hard for him in a shit year last year..his words, that is the dumbest thing i ever heard...
Udonis Haslem played well on championship teams for the Heat and does not see minutes...you do not play players because they played hard for you in a previous season...it is the dumbest thing i have ever heard...
But what you're saying doesn't make sense. If you're going to be effective, you need to do it when you're out on the floor, whether it be 5 minutes or 15 minutes or 30 minutes.
And you're just using the 15 minutes thing without any reference to when it happened. In the beginning of the year he was getting more time and he was playing better. He then started to play poorly, which led to him getting fewer and fewer minutes.
I think players need minutes to get into a flow. Especially a young kid like Grant. It's really tough to get into a flow in 5-10 minutes total. Also people who get short shifted tend to press to justify playing time, making matters worse.
We are not a very athletic team. I think if you look at our team we are bellow average in athletic ability at the 1, 2, 3, and 5 spots. I know Melo has his strengths but at a 3 there are many more athletic players. Once you put this all together we will have trouble with those type of teams like Miami.
We are not a very athletic team. I think if you look at our team we are bellow average in athletic ability at the 1, 2, 3, and 5 spots. I know Melo has his strengths but at a 3 there are many more athletic players. Once you put this all together we will have trouble with those type of teams like Miami.
That is why you go big and use your strength against the oppposing team, you do not go small with a team that is not built to go small...
but sure, show me the win share numbers. That would be interesting. Though O'Quinn hasn't played enough to have rate stats to compare really.
O'Quinn is a plodder, Thomas can guard multiple positions and on the perimeter. Seems pretty basic to me. And I like O'Quinn. I think he's a good piece to have in certain situations should they need to go big and physical.
is a net negative, add Williams as the 3 and it is killing the Knicks because neither are good rebounders...
You cna get away with it with Melo at the 4 because he is a banger and can grab boards but with Thomas there the Knicks will continue to get killed on the glass...
Perhaps it was the game after against the Lakers then? And this is from the Raptors game, right after that:
O'Quinn looks like
GiantsUA : 11/10/2015 8:47 pm : link
he was out late.
KP - heating up, Melo filling it up, Grant going to school
The Toronto game is also where Amundson got his first minutes of the year.
It has nothing to do with "facts." Looking at stats blindly while not watching the game doesn't get you anywhere. Against Toronto KOQ got 11 minutes because he did nothing and was replaced in the second half by Seraphin.
Seraphin has shown in limited minutes after being benched that he could adjust, and his minutes started to increase again. Amundson did the same. O'Quinn hasn't.
Do I think Fisher should stick with him so he straightens himself out? Yes, I do. Or at the very least, bring in Seraphin instead, rather than bringing in back of the bench guys like Amundson. But it is pretty clear that Fisher will take a guy out as soon as he sees him playing like crap. And O'Quinn hasn't done much of anything since then.
then all of sudden his minutes were cut for Lou Amundson....
I watch every single game every minute, and there is absolutely no reason for Lou Amundson to be getting more minutes than Kyle Oquinn, none...
He was benched for a guy who played hard for Fisher last season and that is why he was benched, those are fisher's words not mine...he said that Amundson and thomas are getting minutes because they played hard for him last season...it is the dumbest thing i have every heard...
Thomas at the 4 with O'Quinn at the 4 is ludicrous. Thomas is in for man to man defense since he can guard the 2-4 positions. Does O'Quinn have that responsibility?
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
Fisher is too faithful to those guys. That might very well be the case, and that is a fault. But Fisher has shown to have a pretty short leash (at least with the newer guys), and KOQ hasn't done much since sitting more to earn back the playing time.
Thomas at the 4 with O'Quinn at the 4 is ludicrous. Thomas is in for man to man defense since he can guard the 2-4 positions. Does O'Quinn have that responsibility?
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
Of Course you cna compare them they both play the same position and if they are playing the same position they should come to the same scrutiny, Thomas is a horrible rebounder and the Knicks are getting killed on the boards when they go small but
Seriously man just stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you...
it is ludicrous to me that anyone can think Lance Thomas is better than Kyle Oquinn....
We are never going to agree on this and that is fine, agree to disagree...
Thomas at the 4 with O'Quinn at the 4 is ludicrous. Thomas is in for man to man defense since he can guard the 2-4 positions. Does O'Quinn have that responsibility?
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
Of Course you cna compare them they both play the same position and if they are playing the same position they should come to the same scrutiny, Thomas is a horrible rebounder and the Knicks are getting killed on the boards when they go small but
Seriously man just stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you...
it is ludicrous to me that anyone can think Lance Thomas is better than Kyle Oquinn....
We are never going to agree on this and that is fine, agree to disagree...
Lance Thomas is not better than O'Quinn, I think that's pretty obvious.
Lance Thomas is useful in certain situations for man-to-man defensive purposes.
Now, if you compare O'Quinn to Amundson, which is more reasonable because they're asked to do similar things, then that's fair. I don't think anyone would say that Amundson should be in over O'Quinn.
in defensive situations when you need a stop and want to switch on everything? then absolutely i am fine with that...
But if you are going to tell me that Lance Thomas is getting 20+ minutes a night at the 4 over Oquinn no i am not ok with that...
There is no way Lance Thomas should be getting 20 minutes a night i am sorry there is no way he should be getting that many minutes....
I am sure he is a nice guy and good locker room guy but he is not good enough to be playing that many minutes...
I think we're actually in agreement, for the most part. To me, the consistent rotation needs to be this:
RoLo
Porzingis
Melo
Afflalo
Calderon
Galloway
Grant
Seraphin
O'Quinn
Williams should be used sparingly when you need offense i.e. when they're behind and the second unit is looking to run.
Thomas should be used sparingly when you need defense and/or the other team is going small.
Those last two guys need to have an extremely short leash if they're not getting it done. Meaning, if Williams isn't getting baskets, or Thomas is missing his open shots (which happened last night).
O'Quinn needs to be able to play through slumps and figure it out, because talent-wise he's better than Thomas and Amundson. Unfortunately, Fisher doesn't let him do that.
Remember when we were all talking about how deep this team was and what an asset the bench was? And remember our first couple of games where the bench was the Knicks strength? Well Fisher has taken the teams strength and turned it into a huge weakness.
He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.
Remember when we were all talking about how deep this team was and what an asset the bench was? And remember our first couple of games where the bench was the Knicks strength? Well Fisher has taken the teams strength and turned it into a huge weakness.
He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.
Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?
In games he plays more than 15 minutes he is averaging 8 and 8 and shooting 60%...
So why all of sudden was he taken out of the rotation for Lou amundson of all people?
Lou had two really good games. The question is why continued bad play hasnt cost him his spot in the rotation.
Agree with Aspano that KOQ didnt look good in the minutes I saw last night. Looked slow up and down the court. He believes that he is a lot more skilled than he is.
But is it really fair to judge a player who played 4 minutes? hwo can you honestly say a player is good or bad based on a 5 minute spurt...
You have seen what he can do when he gets minutes...
and you can play Koq and Seraphin at the same time...both can hit the mid range and both can play in the post...
They have 4 capable bigs, why not use it and force teams to adjust to them rather than constantly adjusting to what the other team is doing?
Lance thomas should not be the first big off the bench ...
It also looked good a couple of games ago in the 4th quarter when Seraphin was beasting in the paint...
Not that i know of...
Lopez needs to motivate himself to take the next step. I think he has it in him. He's never going to have great post moves because he isnt an uber athlete. But he could be more effective offensively given his package, smarts, and the fact that other guys draw more attention.
Quote:
That being said, he has shit the bed recently. In only a few minutes last night, the only thing I can remember him doing was trying a bounce pass in the paint that was stolen and taken the either way for a transition basket.
But is it really fair to judge a player who played 4 minutes? hwo can you honestly say a player is good or bad based on a 5 minute spurt...
You have seen what he can do when he gets minutes...
and you can play Koq and Seraphin at the same time...both can hit the mid range and both can play in the post...
But I've mentioned it before. Yes, it's only 5 minutes, but he looked bad in the second Milwaukee game, and he hasn't shown anything in the time he's gotten after that. You can't just assume that it's a matter of him playing 15 minutes that will make him look good.
The Sunday game went Seraphin went off was his first time off the bench in a few games. And he immediately had a positive effect, and that earned him more playing time. KOQ has done the opposite so far.
In the games he plays less he is awful...
So what does that tell you? He needs minutes to be effective...
Which brings me back to my entire point, Fisher needs to set the rotation already or this bench is going to continue to suck, he can not keep playing guys in 5 minute spurts it is not going to work...
If he wants to play Williams play him 15 minutes....if you are not going to play him 15 minutes do not play him at all...
Seraphin if you are going to play him 15 minutes or more than play him, if you are not then do not play him....
KOQ if you are going to play him play him 15 minutes or more, if you are not going to do that then do not play him...
Stop going 12, 13 men every fucking game and set your damn rotation already....15 games into the season and he can figure out his bench, it is getting ridiculous...
A hustle guy can play 5 minutes and be effective...
When they play more is when you get into trouble...
Guys like, Seraphin, Oquinn, Williams need minutes to get into a flow, if you are not going to give that to them then they are not going to be productive for you simple as that...
In the games he plays less he is awful...
So what does that tell you? He needs minutes to be effective...
Which brings me back to my entire point, Fisher needs to set the rotation already or this bench is going to continue to suck, he can not keep playing guys in 5 minute spurts it is not going to work...
If he wants to play Williams play him 15 minutes....if you are not going to play him 15 minutes do not play him at all...
Seraphin if you are going to play him 15 minutes or more than play him, if you are not then do not play him....
KOQ if you are going to play him play him 15 minutes or more, if you are not going to do that then do not play him...
Stop going 12, 13 men every fucking game and set your damn rotation already....15 games into the season and he can figure out his bench, it is getting ridiculous...
But what you're saying doesn't make sense. If you're going to be effective, you need to do it when you're out on the floor, whether it be 5 minutes or 15 minutes or 30 minutes.
And you're just using the 15 minutes thing without any reference to when it happened. In the beginning of the year he was getting more time and he was playing better. He then started to play poorly, which led to him getting fewer and fewer minutes.
The game before his minutes started getting cut he had 6 points 5 boards and 3 blocks...
Against Toronto he played 11 minutes had 6 points 6 boards 2 blocks...
he then had 11 minutes 6 points 6 boards and a block...
Then all of sudden he had only 3 minutes...
So again which game did he play bad tha the deserved his minutes cut?
If you had Melo come off th ebench and threw him out there for 4 minutes, do you think he would be effective? no he would look like shit because he wouldnt be able to get into the flow of the game...
Hustle players can play 4-5 minute spurts but that is about it...
Udonis Haslem played well on championship teams for the Heat and does not see minutes...you do not play players because they played hard for you in a previous season...it is the dumbest thing i have ever heard...
The game before his minutes started getting cut he had 6 points 5 boards and 3 blocks...
Against Toronto he played 11 minutes had 6 points 6 boards 2 blocks...
he then had 11 minutes 6 points 6 boards and a block...
Then all of sudden he had only 3 minutes...
So again which game did he play bad tha the deserved his minutes cut?
He started shitting it up in the Milwaukee game, when he threw up two ridiculous airballs - one of which missed by about three feet.
Yeah that is an awful game lets bench him...
Oh he shot 60% in that game also...
But what you're saying doesn't make sense. If you're going to be effective, you need to do it when you're out on the floor, whether it be 5 minutes or 15 minutes or 30 minutes.
And you're just using the 15 minutes thing without any reference to when it happened. In the beginning of the year he was getting more time and he was playing better. He then started to play poorly, which led to him getting fewer and fewer minutes.
I think players need minutes to get into a flow. Especially a young kid like Grant. It's really tough to get into a flow in 5-10 minutes total. Also people who get short shifted tend to press to justify playing time, making matters worse.
11 minutes 6 points 6 boards 1 block 67% from the field...
Next game 3 minutes...
Which player is playing better?
Per game
6 points
2 boards
43 percent from the field
or
5 points
5 boards
1 block
46%
2 boards
.5 blocks
50% from the field
Kyle oquinn is -8 for the season
It has to be about defense with both of them. Not that hard to consider that Thomas is probably better defensively and that's why.
It has to be about defense with both of them. Not that hard to consider that Thomas is probably better defensively and that's why.
What about +-?
Win shares?
How about defensive win shares?
That is why you go big and use your strength against the oppposing team, you do not go small with a team that is not built to go small...
Lance thomas -1.8 Kyle Oquinn +4.4
O'Quinn is a plodder, Thomas can guard multiple positions and on the perimeter. Seems pretty basic to me. And I like O'Quinn. I think he's a good piece to have in certain situations should they need to go big and physical.
Lance Thomas -30
Oquinn -8
Win shares Thomas .3 Oquinn .4
Defensive win shares Thomas .1 Oquinn .3
Per thomas 8.9 Oquinn 16.7
Win shares per 48 Thomas .55 Oquinn 1.03
Defensive rebound Thomas 7.3 Oquinn 21.6
Total rebound Thomas Thomas 5 Oquinn 17.3
Thomas at the 4 is killing the rebounding numbers...he is a horrible rebounder..
You cna get away with it with Melo at the 4 because he is a banger and can grab boards but with Thomas there the Knicks will continue to get killed on the glass...
O'Quinn looks like
GiantsUA : 11/10/2015 8:47 pm : link
he was out late.
KP - heating up, Melo filling it up, Grant going to school
The Toronto game is also where Amundson got his first minutes of the year.
It has nothing to do with "facts." Looking at stats blindly while not watching the game doesn't get you anywhere. Against Toronto KOQ got 11 minutes because he did nothing and was replaced in the second half by Seraphin.
Seraphin has shown in limited minutes after being benched that he could adjust, and his minutes started to increase again. Amundson did the same. O'Quinn hasn't.
Do I think Fisher should stick with him so he straightens himself out? Yes, I do. Or at the very least, bring in Seraphin instead, rather than bringing in back of the bench guys like Amundson. But it is pretty clear that Fisher will take a guy out as soon as he sees him playing like crap. And O'Quinn hasn't done much of anything since then.
he had 6 and 6 with a couple of blocks...
then all of sudden his minutes were cut for Lou Amundson....
I watch every single game every minute, and there is absolutely no reason for Lou Amundson to be getting more minutes than Kyle Oquinn, none...
He was benched for a guy who played hard for Fisher last season and that is why he was benched, those are fisher's words not mine...he said that Amundson and thomas are getting minutes because they played hard for him last season...it is the dumbest thing i have every heard...
not to mention the start of the seaosn where he was easily the best big on the court...
It makes no sense that Oquinn is not getting minutes...
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
Of Course you cna compare them they both play the same position and if they are playing the same position they should come to the same scrutiny, Thomas is a horrible rebounder and the Knicks are getting killed on the boards when they go small but
Seriously man just stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you...
it is ludicrous to me that anyone can think Lance Thomas is better than Kyle Oquinn....
We are never going to agree on this and that is fine, agree to disagree...
Fisher is never going to get this team anywhere as long as he keeps playing 12-13 guys each game...
If Fisher does not come to a set rotation this bench will continue to suck....
Vujacic, Thomas and Amundson should never see the court....
Quote:
Thomas at the 4 with O'Quinn at the 4 is ludicrous. Thomas is in for man to man defense since he can guard the 2-4 positions. Does O'Quinn have that responsibility?
And chalking up the increase in offensive rebounds to Thomas is off-base as well. The offensive rebounds have come because against speedier PGs, Calderon has funneled the man towards the bigs to get help. Because the bigs have to come out, it leaves room for the other team to crash the boards on the offensive end.
Of Course you cna compare them they both play the same position and if they are playing the same position they should come to the same scrutiny, Thomas is a horrible rebounder and the Knicks are getting killed on the boards when they go small but
Seriously man just stop responding to me and i will stop responding to you...
it is ludicrous to me that anyone can think Lance Thomas is better than Kyle Oquinn....
We are never going to agree on this and that is fine, agree to disagree...
Lance Thomas is not better than O'Quinn, I think that's pretty obvious.
Lance Thomas is useful in certain situations for man-to-man defensive purposes.
Now, if you compare O'Quinn to Amundson, which is more reasonable because they're asked to do similar things, then that's fair. I don't think anyone would say that Amundson should be in over O'Quinn.
But if you are going to tell me that Lance Thomas is getting 20+ minutes a night at the 4 over Oquinn no i am not ok with that...
There is no way Lance Thomas should be getting 20 minutes a night i am sorry there is no way he should be getting that many minutes....
I am sure he is a nice guy and good locker room guy but he is not good enough to be playing that many minutes...
But if you are going to tell me that Lance Thomas is getting 20+ minutes a night at the 4 over Oquinn no i am not ok with that...
There is no way Lance Thomas should be getting 20 minutes a night i am sorry there is no way he should be getting that many minutes....
I am sure he is a nice guy and good locker room guy but he is not good enough to be playing that many minutes...
I think we're actually in agreement, for the most part. To me, the consistent rotation needs to be this:
RoLo
Porzingis
Melo
Afflalo
Calderon
Galloway
Grant
Seraphin
O'Quinn
Williams should be used sparingly when you need offense i.e. when they're behind and the second unit is looking to run.
Thomas should be used sparingly when you need defense and/or the other team is going small.
Those last two guys need to have an extremely short leash if they're not getting it done. Meaning, if Williams isn't getting baskets, or Thomas is missing his open shots (which happened last night).
O'Quinn needs to be able to play through slumps and figure it out, because talent-wise he's better than Thomas and Amundson. Unfortunately, Fisher doesn't let him do that.
He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.
He's out of his depth and the sooner he's gone the better off this team will be.
Or the bench was what we thought it was before the season, notwithstanding a really good week to start the season?