They warned the pilot half a dozen times. I'm as critical or Turkey as anyone, but if he was in their airspace and repeatedly warned off its on him, not Turkey, and on Putin for putting him in a position for this to happen.
His shtick is the World's Tough Guy and suddenly he finds his country spread a little thin.
And yet there is almost reverence for his purported strong and decisive leadership in some corners.
He's really a fool. He has taken his country down a path of economic ruin and international ostracism. Yes, I know people are going to say he needed to do all this for internal reasons etc. That makes him a really, really shitty leader -- ruining his country merely to hold power.
They warned the pilot half a dozen times. I'm as critical or Turkey as anyone, but if he was in their airspace and repeatedly warned off its on him, not Turkey, and on Putin for putting him in a position for this to happen.
That's Turkey's claim - according to Russia, they were over Syrian airspace.
I know the inclination is to believe the Turks because of their NATO involvement, but they're every bit as shitty when it comes to telling the truth, just ask the Kurds.
The Turkish military said the aircraft had been warned 10 times in the space of five minutes about violating Turkish airspace. Officials said a second plane had also approached the border and been warned.
"The data we have is very clear. There were two planes approaching our border, we warned them as they were getting too close," a senior Turkish official told Reuters.
"We warned them to avoid entering Turkish airspace before they did, and we warned them many times. Our findings show clearly that Turkish airspace was violated multiple times. And they violated it knowingly," the official said.
Hopefully this does not escalate; especially since Turkey is a NATO nation and might be viewed by the Russians as representing all NATO in this regard. Also I gather someone will be able to verify the precise location of the aircraft, and whether or not it was in Turkish airspace.
they are a full-NATO member. So, if Russia decides to push the issue with Turkey, they could face the joint NATO alliance. Not defending Turkey... but they have vital national interests to the US. Our economic and political alliance with them allows the US to have a toe hold to the Middle East and on the Southern perimeter of Russia (and the Black Sea).
They warned the pilot half a dozen times. I'm as critical or Turkey as anyone, but if he was in their airspace and repeatedly warned off its on him, not Turkey, and on Putin for putting him in a position for this to happen.
That's Turkey's claim - according to Russia, they were over Syrian airspace.
I know the inclination is to believe the Turks because of their NATO involvement, but they're every bit as shitty when it comes to telling the truth, just ask the Kurds.
Again, I don't particularly care for Turkey, either in its secularist incarnation or in its more religious one, but I can't see them simply picking a fight with Russia and hoping that Europe and the US have their back.
News source. This is not good. But at the same time it sends a message loud and clear. Don't fucking violate Turkish airspace.
It was only a matter of time before Putin's games of chicken ran into someone who won't blink. I wonder why Russia hasn't violated Israeli airspace, they seem to violate everyone else's.
1) Turkey claims that the plane was approaching it's air space and it was warned for 5 minutes that it would be shot down.
2) Russian planes are supposedly backing Assad against other groups. Turkey (Sunni) doesn't like Assad (Shiite).
They stated that this has happened before, so why did they shoot now?
Quite a congregation of shitheads have gathered over there, with no reasonable chance on a decent outcome, and we are still asking why the US doesn't have a larger presence?
1) Turkey claims that the plane was approaching it's air space and it was warned for 5 minutes that it would be shot down.
2) Russian planes are supposedly backing Assad against other groups. Turkey (Sunni) doesn't like Assad (Shiite).
Assad is an Alawite, technically a Shia but a small minority within Shiism. The Turks don't much care for Iran, they're relatively indifferent about Assad, and they seem to vacillate on ISIS, but they are jealous of their territorial prerogatives.
Turkey had publicly said back in October they would shoot down aircraft. It's true they hadn't before but they basically publicly called Putin's bluff and then Russia essentially said "fuck it they are just posturing". Turns out one of these two countries wasn't bluffing. Now Putin has to save face with his public just like turkey has done by backing up their (stupid) words.
they are a full-NATO member. So, if Russia decides to push the issue with Turkey, they could face the joint NATO alliance. Not defending Turkey... but they have vital national interests to the US. Our economic and political alliance with them allows the US to have a toe hold to the Middle East and on the Southern perimeter of Russia (and the Black Sea).
But that relationship has become quite strained for, depending on how you measure it, the last few years up to the last 12 years. Latest estimates have ISIS earning $500 million per year from smuggled oil, and a lot of it went through Turkey. Until recently, they essentially turned a blind eye towards foreign fighters crossing Turkey's borders on their way join ISIS. They appear to join the fight against ISIS by allowing the US to use Incerlik to launch air strikes, but use that as cover to begin a bombing campaign of their own, not against ISIS but against Turkish Kurds.
Most of this, imho, is related to Erdogan holding power. It puts Turkey in a position of being sort of an ally and sort of an adversary.
when I said here that 'dickless wonder' head of NATO needed to get NATO member Turkey back in line and to force Turks to stop playing both sides visa vis ISIL?
Similarly to how feckless NATO was doing ham handed paint by numbers job visa vis Ukraine prior to Russian invasion. Not to abandon Ukraine, but to be more subtle.
Then, prior, how ISIL was obviously coochied up to Turkish border Edogan big speech where he said they were beholden to nobody.
One imagines NATO leaders sitting at dinner functions "would you like the roast beef, or the salmon: "ah lovely, the beef please!"
Chech president has come out and said that the mission in question was against ISIL, so why should Turks fire...
so, maybe the Russians were doing what we could not, since we fly from Turkish bases, but doing things we could have/should have been doing all along at least regarding certain locations, not others? Hard to tell from here.
Alawites Shia Sunni Al qadea ISIS Assad Syrian Rebels Syrian Moderates
what a fucking mess and you want to commit boots on the ground? Against who? With who? For what?
and once the Erdogan administration came into play, its like letting crazy eddie join the gang, he just does whatever the fuck he wants, and the limp gang leader says 'but we need him'.
implying that Turkey is protecting ISIS and thus NATO is being used to act on behalf of terrorists. Well done. Link - ( New Window )
That map is interesting. It shows the incident took place not too far from the Russian naval base in Syria, in an area where the rebels are NOT ISIS. As far as his 2 accusations, there is an historic pattern that suggests than the first is not totally off the wall. Given the actions of France over the last 10 days, however, accusation #2 is absurd and probably was made for internal Russian consumption.
Turkey's commitment to fighting ISIS is an open question...
they've been hit by a number of terrorist attacks attributable to ISIS. They remain vulnerable because of proximity. So to say they don't do anything is an oversimplification. They have very specific, overlapping concerns in Syria. The Kurds of course, but also the threat ISIS poses to them and the intercession of Iran.
they've been hit by a number of terrorist attacks attributable to ISIS. They remain vulnerable because of proximity. So to say they don't do anything is an oversimplification. They have very specific, overlapping concerns in Syria. The Kurds of course, but also the threat ISIS poses to them and the intercession of Iran.
I also wonder who is benefitting from that smuggled oil besides ISIS and whether Turkey (in the past) was extracting a transit fee from foreign fighters headed to the caliphate.
Gulf War 1 was what, 1990? then subsequent events.
The Turks, like many nations, remember the old glory days of empire. It is really not that much of a stretch of the imagination that they viewed 25 years of vacuum and instability in neighbor Iraq, thought about how they hate/fear the Kurds, some of whom reside there, then years of instability in bordering Syria, and started thinking about dragging the old empire and expansion apparatus out of the closet.
Erdogan has basically already said out loud, that he would do whatever he wanted to do.
how many groups are in Syria, and consider that one of the reasons there are so many, might be that many nations have (continue to, or not?) secretly 'played the jihadi card' there.
Its really not that huge of a stretch to think the Turks have done so as well.
Very recent re-alignment of northern nations against jihadis is not a bad thing, if your goal is to defeat ISIL. But...Turks obviously did not want that re-alignment.
if that plane was actually over Turkish airspace, this is according to several reports not the first such provocation and the pilot was repeatedly warned. Turkey may have generally unclean hands, they may be cynical to a great degree, but it's a basic tenet of international law that a country may police its borders.
I am a million miles from being an expert on any of this
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
I understand that there will be an attack on America
but I think that it is impossible to stop individuals that buy AK 47's and build suicide vests from doing what they are going to do. You might bust 99 lone wolf attacks but the 100th is successful. What is the appropriate response?
Send 30,000 Americans to Syria and Iraq for a decade? I am asking a question not making a statement. If they are successful 3 times does that mean that America will collapse?
RE: I am a million miles from being an expert on any of this
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
NSFW NSFL NSFW NSFL - ( New Window )
Turkey is very important to the US
Right before Thanksgiving, good for them.
Right before Thanksgiving, good for them.
Well done.
If the plane was shot down by Syrian rebels it's
a whole different story.
And yet there is almost reverence for his purported strong and decisive leadership in some corners.
He's really a fool. He has taken his country down a path of economic ruin and international ostracism. Yes, I know people are going to say he needed to do all this for internal reasons etc. That makes him a really, really shitty leader -- ruining his country merely to hold power.
That's Turkey's claim - according to Russia, they were over Syrian airspace.
I know the inclination is to believe the Turks because of their NATO involvement, but they're every bit as shitty when it comes to telling the truth, just ask the Kurds.
"The data we have is very clear. There were two planes approaching our border, we warned them as they were getting too close," a senior Turkish official told Reuters.
"We warned them to avoid entering Turkish airspace before they did, and we warned them many times. Our findings show clearly that Turkish airspace was violated multiple times. And they violated it knowingly," the official said.
Hopefully this does not escalate; especially since Turkey is a NATO nation and might be viewed by the Russians as representing all NATO in this regard. Also I gather someone will be able to verify the precise location of the aircraft, and whether or not it was in Turkish airspace.
However, this is why they should never have let the Turks into NATO - out for no one but themselves and moving increasingly away from a secular state.
Quote:
They warned the pilot half a dozen times. I'm as critical or Turkey as anyone, but if he was in their airspace and repeatedly warned off its on him, not Turkey, and on Putin for putting him in a position for this to happen.
That's Turkey's claim - according to Russia, they were over Syrian airspace.
I know the inclination is to believe the Turks because of their NATO involvement, but they're every bit as shitty when it comes to telling the truth, just ask the Kurds.
Again, I don't particularly care for Turkey, either in its secularist incarnation or in its more religious one, but I can't see them simply picking a fight with Russia and hoping that Europe and the US have their back.
It was only a matter of time before Putin's games of chicken ran into someone who won't blink. I wonder why Russia hasn't violated Israeli airspace, they seem to violate everyone else's.
Link - ( New Window )
2) Russian planes are supposedly backing Assad against other groups. Turkey (Sunni) doesn't like Assad (Shiite).
Quite a congregation of shitheads have gathered over there, with no reasonable chance on a decent outcome, and we are still asking why the US doesn't have a larger presence?
2) Russian planes are supposedly backing Assad against other groups. Turkey (Sunni) doesn't like Assad (Shiite).
Assad is an Alawite, technically a Shia but a small minority within Shiism. The Turks don't much care for Iran, they're relatively indifferent about Assad, and they seem to vacillate on ISIS, but they are jealous of their territorial prerogatives.
But that relationship has become quite strained for, depending on how you measure it, the last few years up to the last 12 years. Latest estimates have ISIS earning $500 million per year from smuggled oil, and a lot of it went through Turkey. Until recently, they essentially turned a blind eye towards foreign fighters crossing Turkey's borders on their way join ISIS. They appear to join the fight against ISIS by allowing the US to use Incerlik to launch air strikes, but use that as cover to begin a bombing campaign of their own, not against ISIS but against Turkish Kurds.
Most of this, imho, is related to Erdogan holding power. It puts Turkey in a position of being sort of an ally and sort of an adversary.
Similarly to how feckless NATO was doing ham handed paint by numbers job visa vis Ukraine prior to Russian invasion. Not to abandon Ukraine, but to be more subtle.
Then, prior, how ISIL was obviously coochied up to Turkish border Edogan big speech where he said they were beholden to nobody.
One imagines NATO leaders sitting at dinner functions "would you like the roast beef, or the salmon: "ah lovely, the beef please!"
Chech president has come out and said that the mission in question was against ISIL, so why should Turks fire...
so, maybe the Russians were doing what we could not, since we fly from Turkish bases, but doing things we could have/should have been doing all along at least regarding certain locations, not others? Hard to tell from here.
what a fucking mess and you want to commit boots on the ground? Against who? With who? For what?
That map is interesting. It shows the incident took place not too far from the Russian naval base in Syria, in an area where the rebels are NOT ISIS. As far as his 2 accusations, there is an historic pattern that suggests than the first is not totally off the wall. Given the actions of France over the last 10 days, however, accusation #2 is absurd and probably was made for internal Russian consumption.
Thank you!
I also wonder who is benefitting from that smuggled oil besides ISIS and whether Turkey (in the past) was extracting a transit fee from foreign fighters headed to the caliphate.
The Turks, like many nations, remember the old glory days of empire. It is really not that much of a stretch of the imagination that they viewed 25 years of vacuum and instability in neighbor Iraq, thought about how they hate/fear the Kurds, some of whom reside there, then years of instability in bordering Syria, and started thinking about dragging the old empire and expansion apparatus out of the closet.
Erdogan has basically already said out loud, that he would do whatever he wanted to do.
Its really not that huge of a stretch to think the Turks have done so as well.
Very recent re-alignment of northern nations against jihadis is not a bad thing, if your goal is to defeat ISIL. But...Turks obviously did not want that re-alignment.
Send 30,000 Americans to Syria and Iraq for a decade? I am asking a question not making a statement. If they are successful 3 times does that mean that America will collapse?
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.