the Russians have a history of a bully mentality about borders. They've been pushing the Turks buttons and getting further and further into Turkish controlled areas and over Turkish sovereign airspace... I'm much more concerned about Putin looking for a reason to attack Turkish forces supporting the anti-Al-Assad movement than Turkish hegemony.
well, we may need the Turks, but nobody needs Erdogan Â
Turkey still has a strong secular % of its base, NATO has been lacking in strategic insight, weak, bordering on mindless for years, throw in a disinterested US administration and wala.
Alawites Shia Sunni Al qadea ISIS Assad Syrian Rebels Syrian Moderates
what a fucking mess and you want to commit boots on the ground? Against who? With who? For what?
You pose a good question. Nothing in the ME is simple. It's never simply one side against another but an intertwining of various interests and their agendas. To commit US Combat Forces, without some consensus of what Syria will look like is asking them to do what? Do we wish to reassert presence in Northern Iraq for potentially only a short term goal? Imo, it's not as simple as destroying ISIS. Entity like ISIS to me is a result not a cause.
are basically bosom buddies now. Turkey got all excited to play the regional hegemon, theyd been waiting a generation for Saudi Arabia to wane, only to find that Rouhani took their seat.
"Im sure theyre annoyed that Russia and Iran
NoPeanutz : 9:19 am : link : reply
are basically bosom buddies now. Turkey got all excited to play the regional hegemon, theyd been waiting a generation for Saudi Arabia to wane, only to find that Rouhani took their seat."
the Saudis are up to their asses in Yemen, and obviously supporting AQ in Yemen, while, there are a number of characteristics that make ISIL seem different from AQ.
One of the big issues with Russian AF involvement was rules of engagement (with NATO/US) and communications. One of the early reports, not yet confirmed, is that Turkish warnings to stay clear of its airspace or risk being target of AAC was that the pilots were on different frequencies and the warnings went unheard.
Remains to be seen who might falsely claim that, if not true, and how it would play to national advantage.
RE: RE: I am a million miles from being an expert on any of this Â
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
RE: RE: Will Putin purport to send 150,000 troops into Turkey now? Â
His shtick is the World's Tough Guy and suddenly he finds his country spread a little thin.
And yet there is almost reverence for his purported strong and decisive leadership in some corners.
He's really a fool. He has taken his country down a path of economic ruin and international ostracism. Yes, I know people are going to say he needed to do all this for internal reasons etc. That makes him a really, really shitty leader -- ruining his country merely to hold power.
It's the only hand he can play, unless he wants to dust off some Cold War nukes.
the Turks had, in addition to talking about over border flights, warned about attacks on Turkomen Villages (in Syria), basically stating that they had a vested interest in villages just across the border in Syria.
RE: RE: RE: I am a million miles from being an expert on any of this Â
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
He didn't bring them back so much as oil prices did. He restored their power and prestige on the back of buoyed oil prices.
the Turks had, in addition to talking about over border flights, warned about attacks on Turkomen Villages (in Syria), basically stating that they had a vested interest in villages just across the border in Syria.
I have read that in a few articles as well. One would hope Turkey didn't shoot down a plane over Syria because of this vested interest but who knows. Erdogan vs Putin is not a good scenario.
Maybe I'm overconfident in technology but I can't imagine other nations like the US don't already know the true story based on surveillance, satellites, etc... Whether or not the public gets to know or not is another question.
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Except that Hitler had an technologically superior war machine at his disposal and no U.S./Soviet behemoth to lay the smack down (though that came shortly after).
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
He didn't bring them back so much as oil prices did. He restored their power and prestige on the back of buoyed oil prices.
Sure but he gets the credit from his people. He's still amazingly popular at home.
RE: RE: RE: I am a million miles from being an expert on any of this Â
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
I don't think by riding a multiyear spike in the price of oil you can say that Putin brought them back. And by siphoning off a lot of the profits to the kleptocracy as opposed to investing it in the Russian economy he essentially insured the comeback would end when the commodity boom did.
re:(''Frustrating or not
Bill L : 9:46 am : link : reply
Why is Turkey not in the right here?'')
Not sure what that means, but I wonder what the response would be if Turkey flew over Russia or Russia over the US and ignored multiple warnings to leave.
One of the big issues with Russian AF involvement was rules of engagement (with NATO/US) and communications. One of the early reports, not yet confirmed, is that Turkish warnings to stay clear of its airspace or risk being target of AAC was that the pilots were on different frequencies and the warnings went unheard.
Remains to be seen who might falsely claim that, if not true, and how it would play to national advantage.
Doesn't matter. There are "Guard" frequencies (121.5/243.) that every pilot is required to listen to. Whenever a radio call is made on Guard, it overrides whatever else may be transmitting.
The call goes something like this: "Unknown aircraft, unknown aircraft, on position NXX.XX EXXX.XX, squawking XXXX, you are violating Turkish airspace, turn away."
Russian doctrine is to probe other countries airspace. They do it to us all the time. This time, they got called on it.
its not like a suburban fight over your back fence Â
RE: lack of discipline and pulling against
Bill L : 10:03 am : link : reply
In comment 12642005 idiotsavant said:
''Quote:
the potential or unfolding re-alignment
re:(''Frustrating or not
Bill L : 9:46 am : link : reply
Why is Turkey not in the right here?'')
Not sure what that means, but I wonder what the response would be if Turkey flew over Russia or Russia over the US and ignored multiple warnings to leave.''
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I am a million miles from being an expert on any of this Â
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
He didn't bring them back so much as oil prices did. He restored their power and prestige on the back of buoyed oil prices.
Sure but he gets the credit from his people. He's still amazingly popular at home.
Most autocrats with propaganda arms enjoy high favorability ratings.
not sure on this, but they russian suk-27? had been Â
bombing a turkoman village right near the border? who were the turkomens supporting and transporting for, and lets not be naïve. I am really guessing here.
BUT, if and when the northern nations agree to shut down the jihadis, and if the Russians want to help, that would be a good thing.
now, if any nato member wanted to secretly play the jihadi card, and keeping in mind the 10 million refuges from Syria alone, as well as 300k dead, that might be one step to far into cynicism.
One of the big issues with Russian AF involvement was rules of engagement (with NATO/US) and communications. One of the early reports, not yet confirmed, is that Turkish warnings to stay clear of its airspace or risk being target of AAC was that the pilots were on different frequencies and the warnings went unheard.
Remains to be seen who might falsely claim that, if not true, and how it would play to national advantage.
Doesn't matter. There are "Guard" frequencies (121.5/243.) that every pilot is required to listen to. Whenever a radio call is made on Guard, it overrides whatever else may be transmitting.
The call goes something like this: "Unknown aircraft, unknown aircraft, on position NXX.XX EXXX.XX, squawking XXXX, you are violating Turkish airspace, turn away."
Russian doctrine is to probe other countries airspace. They do it to us all the time. This time, they got called on it.
Yes, Russians have a history of pushing the envelope. Just not air but sea. There has been an on going search for a Russian submarine off the coast of Scotland. French also joined the search.
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
He didn't bring them back so much as oil prices did. He restored their power and prestige on the back of buoyed oil prices.
Sure but he gets the credit from his people. He's still amazingly popular at home.
Most autocrats with propaganda arms enjoy high favorability ratings.
As do leaders that turn around bankrupt economies. He's got a lot working for him domestically.
Doesn't matter. There are "Guard" frequencies (121.5/243.) that every pilot is required to listen to. Whenever a radio call is made on Guard, it overrides whatever else may be transmitting.
The call goes something like this: "Unknown aircraft, unknown aircraft, on position NXX.XX EXXX.XX, squawking XXXX, you are violating Turkish airspace, turn away."
[/quote]
C'mon Gypsy - you know the "guard police" are probably just as bad over there ;)
Doesn't matter. There are "Guard" frequencies (121.5/243.) that every pilot is required to listen to. Whenever a radio call is made on Guard, it overrides whatever else may be transmitting.
The call goes something like this: "Unknown aircraft, unknown aircraft, on position NXX.XX EXXX.XX, squawking XXXX, you are violating Turkish airspace, turn away."
C'mon Gypsy - you know the "guard police" are probably just as bad over there ;)
he upped the pace of extraction so as to diminish Russia's existing oil reserves markedly and made the economy so dependent on resources that when the price of oil dropped (thank you Saudi) the Russian economy contracted. He has resorted to foreign distractions to try to unite the country behind him and has a propaganda arm working for him that would make the Soviets proud. He comes from a tradition that is reasonably comfortable with "benevolent" autocracy but he understands that if the economy doesn't improve his domestic support will erode.
RE: RE: RE: Will Putin purport to send 150,000 troops into Turkey now? Â
His shtick is the World's Tough Guy and suddenly he finds his country spread a little thin.
And yet there is almost reverence for his purported strong and decisive leadership in some corners.
He's really a fool. He has taken his country down a path of economic ruin and international ostracism. Yes, I know people are going to say he needed to do all this for internal reasons etc. That makes him a really, really shitty leader -- ruining his country merely to hold power.
It's the only hand he can play, unless he wants to dust off some Cold War nukes.
Turkey frustrates the hell out of me.
Well he could give up power. This is the problem with someone sticking around too long. They end up relying on repression and gimmicks to stay in power. It was true of Harper in Canada -- he didnt lose because he was conservative, he lost because people in Canada were really tired of his shit. We're really fortunate as a nation that our presidents are out after 2 terms. I means we dont have to blow our national capital to keep the leader in power.
Putin is putting Putin ahead of Russia. Great leader.
he upped the pace of extraction so as to diminish Russia's existing oil reserves markedly and made the economy so dependent on resources that when the price of oil dropped (thank you Saudi) the Russian economy contracted. He has resorted to foreign distractions to try to unite the country behind him and has a propaganda arm working for him that would make the Soviets proud. He comes from a tradition that is reasonably comfortable with "benevolent" autocracy but he understands that if the economy doesn't improve his domestic support will erode.
He's been in power over 15 years. He has plenty of enemies to cast blame on for any future economic problems. He has plenty of distractions for his people. Unless some oligarchs turn on him, he should be fine.
Once he is out of power he could very likely be a deadman. He might be the richest man in the world according to many reports and has created a state and organized crime structure that carries out hits in broad daylight all over the world. If he ever leaves power he can't ensure his own safety from the next regime.
RE: not sure on this, but they russian suk-27? had been Â
bombing a turkoman village right near the border? who were the turkomens supporting and transporting for
As you may know, they are Syrians of Turkish origin. Not treated well by the Assad regime. Villages also attacked by ISIS. Align with freedom fighters against Assad (not ISIS). We have accused the Russians of not just bombing ISIS, but other groups fighting Assad. So this would appear to fit.
Yea, technically theyre equals on the field. Coaches, field generals, "strategic masterminds," democratically elected autocrats, whatever. But one is all talk and one is all action. And everybody knows what will happen when their teams eventually meet on the field.
If it's 20-13, or if it's a Thanksgiving buttfumble, the result will surprise no one.
Doesn't matter. There are "Guard" frequencies (121.5/243.) that every pilot is required to listen to. Whenever a radio call is made on Guard, it overrides whatever else may be transmitting.
The call goes something like this: "Unknown aircraft, unknown aircraft, on position NXX.XX EXXX.XX, squawking XXXX, you are violating Turkish airspace, turn away."
C'mon Gypsy - you know the "guard police" are probably just as bad over there ;)
"You're on GUARD!"
They aren't. They use guard to have conversations instead of 123.45.
You tend to listen to guard more often in the middle east, especially when you're flying through Syrian or Iranian SA rings.
Once he is out of power he could very likely be a deadman. He might be the richest man in the world according to many reports and has created a state and organized crime structure that carries out hits in broad daylight all over the world. If he ever leaves power he can't ensure his own safety from the next regime.
You're right. Not a defense of him though.
I dont mean to carry on. I just hear a little too much non-negative assessments of Putin. Trying to stay nice, but there are some in this country who have come awfully close to praising his leadership and his leadership style in the past year. And it's bullshit. He's a goon with no friends. Pallin' up next to the most reviled regimes in the world.
Yea, technically theyre equals on the field. Coaches, field generals, "strategic masterminds," democratically elected autocrats, whatever. But one is all talk and one is all action. And everybody knows what will happen when their teams eventually meet on the field.
If it's 20-13, or if it's a Thanksgiving buttfumble, the result will surprise no one.
Except Turkey is in NATO, so if they're in the right in the dispute they (theoretically) should be able to count on Europe and America to intervene.
Yea, technically theyre equals on the field. Coaches, field generals, "strategic masterminds," democratically elected autocrats, whatever. But one is all talk and one is all action. And everybody knows what will happen when their teams eventually meet on the field.
If it's 20-13, or if it's a Thanksgiving buttfumble, the result will surprise no one.
Except Turkey is in NATO, so if they're in the right in the dispute they (theoretically) should be able to count on Europe and America to intervene.
I wonder whether we're seeing the end of NATO, either implicitly or outright. The definitive test would be the Baltic states.
Hello......Angela......Hello....are you out there?.....Angela?
Yes, Russians have a history of pushing the envelope. Just not air but sea. There has been an on going search for a Russian submarine off the coast of Scotland. French also joined the search.
Link - ( New Window )
Have they looked in the area of the Grand Banks?
;)
Absolutely Putin is a monster and I wish all the worst things in the world for him. I can't comprehend the people that admire him or think he provides any value. The guy has gutted the economy and forced any free thinker, talented person, or rich person to have a getaway plan out of Russia. The public was sick of him years ago, he solved that by crushing dissent, entertaining the public with war, controlling all media, controlling all politics, and playing his allies and opponents off of each other.
Putin is a product of his environment and as ridiculous as his actions are he is pigeon-holed into future actions by his past actions and the mob mentality and propaganda media he has created. There are ultra-nationalists in Russia that make Putin look like a liberal, law-abiding, pansy by comparison. His foray in Ukraine is actually deemed by many as not being nearly enough. He has to pander to the oligarchs, military, church, extremists, nationalists, chechens, etc... to prevent the whole thing from falling apart.
But all he is really doing is making sure it falls apart sooner. Without a revamp of the economy, corruption, and politics in Russia there isn't a whole lot anyone can do to stop the downward spiral. He is just in survival mode at this point.
one cannot successfully serve too many purposes at the same time. It just does not work.
And one must be able to take difficult moral decisions.
Now, if we accept, that most do, that stable nation states pose less of a threat to our homeland than asymmetric threats like ISIL and AQ do..
And, if you see that there is a -process- just getting started, whereby Russia might align with our side, western nation states, against the asymmetric threats such as AQ and ISIL etc, and accept that that this is a process worth investing, in...however early and flawed..
keeping in mind that one has left the vacuum, into which the Russians flew, keeping in mind that you want to allow for that the Russians might turn westward towards our side, then you also allow for the Turks to play both sides, then turn around and let the Turks poke Putin in the eye like that, it raises the question of who is forming policy here
Yes, Russians have a history of pushing the envelope. Just not air but sea. There has been an on going search for a Russian submarine off the coast of Scotland. French also joined the search.
Link - ( New Window )
Have they looked in the area of the Grand Banks?
;)
Yes, Russians have a history of pushing the envelope. Just not air but sea. There has been an on going search for a Russian submarine off the coast of Scotland. French also joined the search.
Link - ( New Window )
Have they looked in the area of the Grand Banks?
;)
Haha could be there now. It's been over 10 days since it was spotted off of Scotland.
NATO has a very difficult choice to make. ISIS is not the juggernaut some seem to think it to be, it continues to exist because of the timidity and the contradictory interests of those who could destroy it. It would retain latent terror capabilities, but these are not necessarily existential threats.
In the medium term, the more serious threat is going to be a Russia in economic freefall. If that decline leads to political instability, or even if it doesn't, Russia will continue to pose security challenges for the states on virtually of its borders, most notably in the Baltic, and should NATO decline to stand behind Turkey that point will not be lost in Vilnius, Tallinn and Riga.
what a fucking mess and you want to commit boots on the ground? Against who? With who? For what?
You pose a good question. Nothing in the ME is simple. It's never simply one side against another but an intertwining of various interests and their agendas. To commit US Combat Forces, without some consensus of what Syria will look like is asking them to do what? Do we wish to reassert presence in Northern Iraq for potentially only a short term goal? Imo, it's not as simple as destroying ISIS. Entity like ISIS to me is a result not a cause.
Good point. Thats one line Erdogan hasnt crossed. Look for Putin to send a message.
"Im sure theyre annoyed that Russia and Iran
NoPeanutz : 9:19 am : link : reply
are basically bosom buddies now. Turkey got all excited to play the regional hegemon, theyd been waiting a generation for Saudi Arabia to wane, only to find that Rouhani took their seat."
Remains to be seen who might falsely claim that, if not true, and how it would play to national advantage.
Quote:
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
Quote:
His shtick is the World's Tough Guy and suddenly he finds his country spread a little thin.
And yet there is almost reverence for his purported strong and decisive leadership in some corners.
He's really a fool. He has taken his country down a path of economic ruin and international ostracism. Yes, I know people are going to say he needed to do all this for internal reasons etc. That makes him a really, really shitty leader -- ruining his country merely to hold power.
It's the only hand he can play, unless he wants to dust off some Cold War nukes.
Turkey frustrates the hell out of me.
Quote:
In comment 12641910 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
He didn't bring them back so much as oil prices did. He restored their power and prestige on the back of buoyed oil prices.
I have read that in a few articles as well. One would hope Turkey didn't shoot down a plane over Syria because of this vested interest but who knows. Erdogan vs Putin is not a good scenario.
Maybe I'm overconfident in technology but I can't imagine other nations like the US don't already know the true story based on surveillance, satellites, etc... Whether or not the public gets to know or not is another question.
Except that Hitler had an technologically superior war machine at his disposal and no U.S./Soviet behemoth to lay the smack down (though that came shortly after).
re:(''Frustrating or not
Bill L : 9:46 am : link : reply
Why is Turkey not in the right here?'')
Quote:
In comment 12641918 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
In comment 12641910 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
He didn't bring them back so much as oil prices did. He restored their power and prestige on the back of buoyed oil prices.
Sure but he gets the credit from his people. He's still amazingly popular at home.
Quote:
In comment 12641910 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
I don't think by riding a multiyear spike in the price of oil you can say that Putin brought them back. And by siphoning off a lot of the profits to the kleptocracy as opposed to investing it in the Russian economy he essentially insured the comeback would end when the commodity boom did.
re:(''Frustrating or not
Bill L : 9:46 am : link : reply
Why is Turkey not in the right here?'')
Remains to be seen who might falsely claim that, if not true, and how it would play to national advantage.
Doesn't matter. There are "Guard" frequencies (121.5/243.) that every pilot is required to listen to. Whenever a radio call is made on Guard, it overrides whatever else may be transmitting.
The call goes something like this: "Unknown aircraft, unknown aircraft, on position NXX.XX EXXX.XX, squawking XXXX, you are violating Turkish airspace, turn away."
Russian doctrine is to probe other countries airspace. They do it to us all the time. This time, they got called on it.
RE: lack of discipline and pulling against
Bill L : 10:03 am : link : reply
In comment 12642005 idiotsavant said:
''Quote:
the potential or unfolding re-alignment
re:(''Frustrating or not
Bill L : 9:46 am : link : reply
Why is Turkey not in the right here?'')
Not sure what that means, but I wonder what the response would be if Turkey flew over Russia or Russia over the US and ignored multiple warnings to leave.''
Quote:
In comment 12641958 schabadoo said:
Quote:
In comment 12641918 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
In comment 12641910 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
He didn't bring them back so much as oil prices did. He restored their power and prestige on the back of buoyed oil prices.
Sure but he gets the credit from his people. He's still amazingly popular at home.
Most autocrats with propaganda arms enjoy high favorability ratings.
BUT, if and when the northern nations agree to shut down the jihadis, and if the Russians want to help, that would be a good thing.
now, if any nato member wanted to secretly play the jihadi card, and keeping in mind the 10 million refuges from Syria alone, as well as 300k dead, that might be one step to far into cynicism.
Quote:
One of the big issues with Russian AF involvement was rules of engagement (with NATO/US) and communications. One of the early reports, not yet confirmed, is that Turkish warnings to stay clear of its airspace or risk being target of AAC was that the pilots were on different frequencies and the warnings went unheard.
Remains to be seen who might falsely claim that, if not true, and how it would play to national advantage.
Doesn't matter. There are "Guard" frequencies (121.5/243.) that every pilot is required to listen to. Whenever a radio call is made on Guard, it overrides whatever else may be transmitting.
The call goes something like this: "Unknown aircraft, unknown aircraft, on position NXX.XX EXXX.XX, squawking XXXX, you are violating Turkish airspace, turn away."
Russian doctrine is to probe other countries airspace. They do it to us all the time. This time, they got called on it.
Yes, Russians have a history of pushing the envelope. Just not air but sea. There has been an on going search for a Russian submarine off the coast of Scotland. French also joined the search.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 12641976 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
In comment 12641958 schabadoo said:
Quote:
In comment 12641918 Dunedin81 said:
Quote:
In comment 12641910 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I might be nuts saying this (or if this is accurate it's probably been said already), but Putin's actions and language remind of Hitler in the mid-1930s. It's like he's baiting in order to have an excuse to act.
Hitler took a Germany near its economic nadir and rode the rebound to economic and military strength. Putin has driven Russia on that downward spiral and is trying to hang on to both the power and the graft that goes with it.
Not a fan of Putin, but to be fair he took over a bankrupt nation and brought them back a long way. They're in a bad spot now due to their reliance on oil.
He didn't bring them back so much as oil prices did. He restored their power and prestige on the back of buoyed oil prices.
Sure but he gets the credit from his people. He's still amazingly popular at home.
Most autocrats with propaganda arms enjoy high favorability ratings.
As do leaders that turn around bankrupt economies. He's got a lot working for him domestically.
Doesn't matter. There are "Guard" frequencies (121.5/243.) that every pilot is required to listen to. Whenever a radio call is made on Guard, it overrides whatever else may be transmitting.
The call goes something like this: "Unknown aircraft, unknown aircraft, on position NXX.XX EXXX.XX, squawking XXXX, you are violating Turkish airspace, turn away."
[/quote]
C'mon Gypsy - you know the "guard police" are probably just as bad over there ;)
"You're on GUARD!"
Doesn't matter. There are "Guard" frequencies (121.5/243.) that every pilot is required to listen to. Whenever a radio call is made on Guard, it overrides whatever else may be transmitting.
The call goes something like this: "Unknown aircraft, unknown aircraft, on position NXX.XX EXXX.XX, squawking XXXX, you are violating Turkish airspace, turn away."
C'mon Gypsy - you know the "guard police" are probably just as bad over there ;)
"You're on GUARD!"
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In comment 12641778 Ben in Tampa said:
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His shtick is the World's Tough Guy and suddenly he finds his country spread a little thin.
And yet there is almost reverence for his purported strong and decisive leadership in some corners.
He's really a fool. He has taken his country down a path of economic ruin and international ostracism. Yes, I know people are going to say he needed to do all this for internal reasons etc. That makes him a really, really shitty leader -- ruining his country merely to hold power.
It's the only hand he can play, unless he wants to dust off some Cold War nukes.
Turkey frustrates the hell out of me.
Well he could give up power. This is the problem with someone sticking around too long. They end up relying on repression and gimmicks to stay in power. It was true of Harper in Canada -- he didnt lose because he was conservative, he lost because people in Canada were really tired of his shit. We're really fortunate as a nation that our presidents are out after 2 terms. I means we dont have to blow our national capital to keep the leader in power.
Putin is putting Putin ahead of Russia. Great leader.
He's been in power over 15 years. He has plenty of enemies to cast blame on for any future economic problems. He has plenty of distractions for his people. Unless some oligarchs turn on him, he should be fine.
As you may know, they are Syrians of Turkish origin. Not treated well by the Assad regime. Villages also attacked by ISIS. Align with freedom fighters against Assad (not ISIS). We have accused the Russians of not just bombing ISIS, but other groups fighting Assad. So this would appear to fit.
If it's 20-13, or if it's a Thanksgiving buttfumble, the result will surprise no one.
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Doesn't matter. There are "Guard" frequencies (121.5/243.) that every pilot is required to listen to. Whenever a radio call is made on Guard, it overrides whatever else may be transmitting.
The call goes something like this: "Unknown aircraft, unknown aircraft, on position NXX.XX EXXX.XX, squawking XXXX, you are violating Turkish airspace, turn away."
C'mon Gypsy - you know the "guard police" are probably just as bad over there ;)
"You're on GUARD!"
They aren't. They use guard to have conversations instead of 123.45.
You tend to listen to guard more often in the middle east, especially when you're flying through Syrian or Iranian SA rings.
You're right. Not a defense of him though.
I dont mean to carry on. I just hear a little too much non-negative assessments of Putin. Trying to stay nice, but there are some in this country who have come awfully close to praising his leadership and his leadership style in the past year. And it's bullshit. He's a goon with no friends. Pallin' up next to the most reviled regimes in the world.
If it's 20-13, or if it's a Thanksgiving buttfumble, the result will surprise no one.
Except Turkey is in NATO, so if they're in the right in the dispute they (theoretically) should be able to count on Europe and America to intervene.
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Yea, technically theyre equals on the field. Coaches, field generals, "strategic masterminds," democratically elected autocrats, whatever. But one is all talk and one is all action. And everybody knows what will happen when their teams eventually meet on the field.
If it's 20-13, or if it's a Thanksgiving buttfumble, the result will surprise no one.
Except Turkey is in NATO, so if they're in the right in the dispute they (theoretically) should be able to count on Europe and America to intervene.
I wonder whether we're seeing the end of NATO, either implicitly or outright. The definitive test would be the Baltic states.
Hello......Angela......Hello....are you out there?.....Angela?
Yes, Russians have a history of pushing the envelope. Just not air but sea. There has been an on going search for a Russian submarine off the coast of Scotland. French also joined the search.
Link - ( New Window )
Have they looked in the area of the Grand Banks?
;)
Putin is a product of his environment and as ridiculous as his actions are he is pigeon-holed into future actions by his past actions and the mob mentality and propaganda media he has created. There are ultra-nationalists in Russia that make Putin look like a liberal, law-abiding, pansy by comparison. His foray in Ukraine is actually deemed by many as not being nearly enough. He has to pander to the oligarchs, military, church, extremists, nationalists, chechens, etc... to prevent the whole thing from falling apart.
But all he is really doing is making sure it falls apart sooner. Without a revamp of the economy, corruption, and politics in Russia there isn't a whole lot anyone can do to stop the downward spiral. He is just in survival mode at this point.
Link - ( New Window )
And one must be able to take difficult moral decisions.
Now, if we accept, that most do, that stable nation states pose less of a threat to our homeland than asymmetric threats like ISIL and AQ do..
And, if you see that there is a -process- just getting started, whereby Russia might align with our side, western nation states, against the asymmetric threats such as AQ and ISIL etc, and accept that that this is a process worth investing, in...however early and flawed..
keeping in mind that one has left the vacuum, into which the Russians flew, keeping in mind that you want to allow for that the Russians might turn westward towards our side, then you also allow for the Turks to play both sides, then turn around and let the Turks poke Putin in the eye like that, it raises the question of who is forming policy here
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<snip>
Yes, Russians have a history of pushing the envelope. Just not air but sea. There has been an on going search for a Russian submarine off the coast of Scotland. French also joined the search.
Link - ( New Window )
Have they looked in the area of the Grand Banks?
;)
Vladimir, you've lost ANOTHER submarine
Things could get interesting soon.
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<snip>
Yes, Russians have a history of pushing the envelope. Just not air but sea. There has been an on going search for a Russian submarine off the coast of Scotland. French also joined the search.
Link - ( New Window )
Have they looked in the area of the Grand Banks?
;)
Haha could be there now. It's been over 10 days since it was spotted off of Scotland.
Don't overlook the fact that it's Latakia Province.
In the medium term, the more serious threat is going to be a Russia in economic freefall. If that decline leads to political instability, or even if it doesn't, Russia will continue to pose security challenges for the states on virtually of its borders, most notably in the Baltic, and should NATO decline to stand behind Turkey that point will not be lost in Vilnius, Tallinn and Riga.
I believe that is older footage that has nothing to do with today's events, it is just making the rounds again.