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NFT: RAB on the Yankees spending

Dunedin81 : 11/25/2015 12:32 pm
Quote:
Over the last 15 years, baseball has experienced incredible growth as an industry, with MLB revenue climbing from $3.4 billion in 2000 to north of $8 billion in 2015. They might even be over $9 billion at this point. Attendance is as good as it’s ever been, television contracts are enormous (at least for teams that don’t own their own network), and MLBAM is a media juggernaut.

Baseball is extremely healthy right now and, as a result, teams are spending more than ever on players. According to the USA Today salary database, the average MLB payroll has gone from $52.8M in 2000 to $65.8M in 2005 to $83.7M in 2010 to $114.8M in 2015. The average payrolls have more than doubled over the last 15 years. That’s incredible! The Yankees specifically have gone from a $92.8M payroll in 2000 to a $213.4M payroll in 2015.

That only tells part of the story, however. New York’s payroll increased $23.1M on average each year from 2000-05. They went from that $92.8M payroll in 2000 to a $208.3M payroll in 2005. That’s insane. The team’s payroll has held fairly steady over the last ten years though. It was $208.3M in 2005 and $213.4M in 2015 according to USA Today’s numbers, which I’m certain are not 100% accurate, but are good enough for our purposes. Here’s a graph:

2000-15 MLB Payrolls

The Yankees have added some significant revenue streams over the last ten years. First and foremost, the new Yankee Stadium opened in 2009. That’s kind of a big deal. Then, in November 2012, a significant percentage of the YES Network was sold to News Corp. for hundreds of millions of dollars over a span of several years. And finally, MLB recently signed new national television contracts with FOX and TBS, more than doubling each team’s take. All of that additional revenue has not led to a payroll increase.

Of course, the Yankees have some significant expenses as well, including revenue sharing and the luxury tax. (They’re also paying off the new ballpark.) They’ve paid something along the lines of $20M annually in luxury tax for a few years now, and who knows how much they’re playing in revenue sharing. A Forbes article says the Yankees paid $95M (!) in revenue sharing in 2013. That’s ridiculous. Then again, the same article says the team led MLB with $461M in revenue that year. (That’s after revenue sharing and bond payments on the ballpark.) Forbes had the team’s revenue at $277M in 2005.

Link - ( New Window )
I'm the last to resent them for making money..  
Dunedin81 : 11/25/2015 12:55 pm : link
but you've got a stagnant payroll, an extremely expensive ballpark experience and substantial increases in revenue and they're dedicated to holding payroll steady. I think fans are starting to get understandably upset.
Thanks Dune...  
Dan in the Springs : 11/25/2015 1:00 pm : link
I agree with what you are saying and liked the tone of the article. As a Yankees fan I've become accustomed to the Yankees being willing to spend more - whatever it takes to win a championship. It's been painful to see our team commit excessive dollars to mercenaries like ARod then not have enough money to sign Cano - who should have been a Yankees for life.

The most painful of all was what he pointed out in the article - the idea of selling on Miller or Gardner because of being hamstrung financially. We simply cannot let our talent go - guys that have performed well in Yankees Stadium need to be paid and kept around..
They gave made some bad mistakes in regards to money  
superspynyg : 11/25/2015 1:06 pm : link
Signing players who are past primes. Reworking deals for aging players when they opt out.

This plan to get young is good but you still need to add pieces.
RE: Thanks Dune...  
BurberryManning : 11/25/2015 1:15 pm : link
In comment 12644034 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
It's been painful to see our team commit excessive dollars to mercenaries like ARod then not have enough money to sign Cano - who should have been a Yankees for life..


Why is Arod considered a mercenary? Isn't he the longest tenured active Yankee and didn't he offer to accept less money to be traded from Texas (which the MLBPA declined)?
They made mistakes...  
Dunedin81 : 11/25/2015 1:15 pm : link
but the Yankees have made financial mistakes for the last decade and a half. The difference is that they used to be willing to eat them. Their brand was iconic enough, their revenue streams were strong enough, and they cared enough about winning (for winning's sake and also because of the revenue it generated) that they were willing to deal with Glass Carl and Kei Igawa and all of that crap. Now that the revenues seem to be much, much bigger and the team value has increased markedly too, they seem maddeningly inconsistent on the subject of payroll. They don't need to spend 150% of the next closest team (they can't) but if they want to be competitive they have to be willing to spend more than they're spending now.
Why not get David Price  
Shadow : 11/25/2015 1:17 pm : link
all they have is Severino and Warren on the books for 2017.
Get Price now make a run for the AL east. Big Lefty to match up with Tanaka Pineda Severino Evaldi. That rotation is the best in the Al.
If Arod is a Mercenary  
Jim in Tampa : 11/25/2015 1:39 pm : link
Then so were...

Babe Ruth
Willie Randolph
Tino Martinez
Paul O'Neill
Reggie Jackson
Mickey Rivers
Lou Piniella
Sparky Lyle

And a host of other players, all traded to the Yanks, just like AROD.

And no way in hell Cano should have been a Yankee for life at that price tag.
Reason I view ARod as a mercenary...  
Dan in the Springs : 11/25/2015 1:43 pm : link
He wanted to go to Boston - was willing to take a paycut to play for them.

Had an opportunity to stay with the Yankees and have Texas pay a significant portion of his contract. Could have possibly worked out an arrangement to stay on that contract and sign an extension but instead opted out, causing his own team to pick up ALL the remaining dollars on the contract as well as the additional ones he wanted.

To my knowledge he is the only Yankees that I know of who did those combination of things.
Bc Price can't win in the post season aka  
bxgiants4 : 11/25/2015 1:44 pm : link
Kenny Rogers aka Jeff weaver aka Javier Vazquez

Yanks didn't have to give him the deal they gave him...  
Dunedin81 : 11/25/2015 1:48 pm : link
nobody else was going into that stratosphere for him on money and years.
RE: They gave made some bad mistakes in regards to money  
rich in DC : 11/25/2015 1:51 pm : link
In comment 12644037 superspynyg said:
Quote:
Signing players who are past primes. Reworking deals for aging players when they opt out.

This plan to get young is good but you still need to add pieces.


I think this IS the plan. The Yanks have what now amount to really bad deals with CC, ARod, Tex, Beltran, Ellsbury and McCann. However, by 2017, only Ellsbury will be a long term liability- as both McCann and Headley will be entering their walk years. Tanaka could opt-out, but I don't think he will- he is not a true #1- and isn't going to get a better deal anywhere else. However, he is a nice #2, is young, and is not a liability. I am also assuming Gardner and Miller will have been traded by then.

After the 2017 season, the Yanks will reach a turning point- CC, ARod, Beltran and Tex will all be gone. I assume Miller and Gardner will be too.

It is important to note that Eovaldi and Pineda will reach FA then as well. Those will be big decisions on spending there as well.

The Yanks also appear to be willing to use their own farm system to fill holes- Judge, Bird, Sanchez, Severino, Mateo and the multitudes of relievers.

Once the Yanks have some time (probably at the end of 2017 season) to assess how the young guys are doing, and what holes still need to be patched. At THAT point, the Yanks will likely begin spending again- but probably in a much more careful manner.

IMO, that means that younger FA with upside would be the targets, but based on need rather than name. of course, I am sure that the Yanks will be sure to set aside some massive payroll space in their budget to allow them to pursue big time young FA like Fernandez and Harper if and when they become FA- because how many star level production guys become available in their mid 20s?

That's the long way of saying this is going to be an interesting 2 year ride
That's true.  
Dan in the Springs : 11/25/2015 1:55 pm : link
painful but true.

At the time that we had him on his first contract I wanted to see if we could find a way to keep him on that contract. IIRC Texas still owed him something like $50MM on that contract. Him choosing to opt out meant letting Texas off the hook.

What's even more painful to me about it is that he already knew he didn't want to play for just the money - he wanted a championship. That's why he was willing to take a paycut to play for Boston. After the MLBPA nixed that idea was when the Yankees got involved.

I would have told him that if he chose to opt-out we were taking ourselves out of the running for his services.
RE: RE: They gave made some bad mistakes in regards to money  
Dan in the Springs : 11/25/2015 1:58 pm : link
In comment 12644114 rich in DC said:
Quote:
In comment 12644037 superspynyg said:


Quote:
IMO, that means that younger FA with upside would be the targets, but based on need rather than name.


With payrolls escalating everywhere around the league younger FA with upside are like unicorns - can't find them. Spending money isn't the issue - you have to trade for them.
A lot of people shit on the McCann contract  
illmatic : 11/25/2015 1:59 pm : link
but I would hardly call that a bad deal. Maybe it will suck in the last year of the deal but whatever, that's the risk you take when you sign a free agent. It usually seems to work out that way for most big money players.

Headley, on the other hand... now there's a shitty little contract. He's booty and we have three more years to witness it.
RE: A lot of people shit on the McCann contract  
Dunedin81 : 11/25/2015 2:05 pm : link
In comment 12644123 illmatic said:
Quote:
but I would hardly call that a bad deal. Maybe it will suck in the last year of the deal but whatever, that's the risk you take when you sign a free agent. It usually seems to work out that way for most big money players.

Headley, on the other hand... now there's a shitty little contract. He's booty and we have three more years to witness it.


Headley will probably be a bad contract, but for length and dollars it's not unconscionable, and it can probably be moved if we are willing to eat money. If his errors this season were an aberration, he's a decent defensive 3B who should hit around .260 with low double digit HRs. The issue is that they probably won't eat money, not unless Jagielo or someone else is really forcing the issue.
I don't trust Cashman and Co. to spend the money wisely, so I'm  
Jim in Hoboken : 11/25/2015 2:12 pm : link
not upset they are not willing to add big pieces at this point. Judging by the results, though, maybe they should spend money on hiring better people for scouting and player development.

I know, I know, the system isn't as bad now, but it still lags behind the other better run organizations, and there is no reason it should be that way.
RE: I don't trust Cashman and Co. to spend the money wisely, so I'm  
Dunedin81 : 11/25/2015 2:17 pm : link
In comment 12644154 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
not upset they are not willing to add big pieces at this point. Judging by the results, though, maybe they should spend money on hiring better people for scouting and player development.

I know, I know, the system isn't as bad now, but it still lags behind the other better run organizations, and there is no reason it should be that way.


Does it? We had a couple guys from our minors signed onto other teams' 40-man rosters, guys without a serious chance of making ours. We have actually brought a number of homegrown players within spitting distance of the majors, only to have them break through with other teams. It's not the best-run farm in the game, nor is it the most productive, but there aren't many that are demonstrably better when you take into account draft position etc.
We may have a ton of prospects worthy of hype in our own eyes,  
Jim in Hoboken : 11/25/2015 2:31 pm : link
realistically only Judge, Mateo, and Sanchez, aside from Severino and Bird who have already debuted, that are legit top 100 prospects.

Money would be better allocated towards player development for sure. At least let us have a better system than the Red Sox and the Dodgers. I'm sure they have better scouts working for them, and that doesn't have to be the case.
Since December 2009  
arniefez : 11/25/2015 3:03 pm : link
my favorite day as a Yankee fan is the one that Cano signed that asinine contract in Seattle. That's about as perfect as it gets and it's gone even worse then I could have hoped for. My least favorite day was the one the Yankees signed Ellsbury. I don't care what they spend if it's smart money. But we haven't seen smart money from the Yankee in almost 20 years. At least they weren't stupid enough to give Cano 10 years.
RE: Reason I view ARod as a mercenary...  
Matt M. : 11/25/2015 3:16 pm : link
In comment 12644102 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
He wanted to go to Boston - was willing to take a paycut to play for them.

Had an opportunity to stay with the Yankees and have Texas pay a significant portion of his contract. Could have possibly worked out an arrangement to stay on that contract and sign an extension but instead opted out, causing his own team to pick up ALL the remaining dollars on the contract as well as the additional ones he wanted.

To my knowledge he is the only Yankees that I know of who did those combination of things.
He didn't "cause" the Yankees to do anything. They made a bad decision to bid against themselves for him, when Cashman said they wouldn't. He is hardly a mercenary. Yes, he was willing to go to Boston, for less money, which is kind of the opposite. And, he didn't request a trade to the Yankees. The Rangers wanted to dump him and the Yankees were one of the few possible trading partners, even with Texas eating salary. Again, he didn't force Texas to make this move or eat salary.
Cashman wanted to dump him once he opted out during the WS  
yatqb : 11/25/2015 4:01 pm : link
(which was insulting and embarrassing). It was Hank, that dunce, who bid against himself afterwards.

We've got two more years of really bad contracts, and then we're free of the biggest of them, with Ellsbury the one outlier.
Dan bring a up some good point in his own right..  
BurberryManning : 11/25/2015 4:44 pm : link
I think that my perception of Arod has sort of evolved and I see him now as a guy....an often wierd guy...but a guy that has more or less bought into being a " true Yankee" and remains as a remaining vestige from the Old Guard or a bridge to the new.
RE: RE: Reason I view ARod as a mercenary...  
Dan in the Springs : 11/25/2015 4:54 pm : link
In comment 12644267 Matt M. said:
Quote:
In comment 12644102 Dan in the Springs said:


Quote:


He wanted to go to Boston - was willing to take a paycut to play for them.

Had an opportunity to stay with the Yankees and have Texas pay a significant portion of his contract. Could have possibly worked out an arrangement to stay on that contract and sign an extension but instead opted out, causing his own team to pick up ALL the remaining dollars on the contract as well as the additional ones he wanted.

To my knowledge he is the only Yankees that I know of who did those combination of things.

He didn't "cause" the Yankees to do anything. They made a bad decision to bid against themselves for him, when Cashman said they wouldn't. He is hardly a mercenary. Yes, he was willing to go to Boston, for less money, which is kind of the opposite. And, he didn't request a trade to the Yankees. The Rangers wanted to dump him and the Yankees were one of the few possible trading partners, even with Texas eating salary. Again, he didn't force Texas to make this move or eat salary.


Didn't mean to say he forced them to do anything. I know they weren't forced, but once he opted out of the contract the only way they could resign him was to pay out the Texas portion of the salary in addition to whatever he wanted on top of it.

Basically I see him as a guy who in essence did the following three things:

1. He wanted to go to Boston so bad he agreed to take less money to go there.
2. He wanted to make sure he got top dollar once he was traded to the Yankees so he opted out of a contract that was good for him and extremely favorable for the Yankees. Mind you, this was the same contract he was willing to play under for even LESS money with Boston.
3. After the Yankees made the stupid decision to sign him after opting out, he went about his professional life in such a way as to bring shame upon himself and the organization and caused himself to get suspended for a year.

In no way is he someone similar to any of the above listed free agents. Take issue with the "mercenary" term all you want, that's how I see him. A mercenary sells his loyalties. Even though ARod clearly preferred to go to Boston (he was willing to give them a discount) he was willing to sell his loyalties to the Yankees as long as they paid top dollar. Mercenary.
RE: Since December 2009  
Jim in Fairfax : 11/25/2015 5:02 pm : link
In comment 12644249 arniefez said:
Quote:
my favorite day as a Yankee fan is the one that Cano signed that asinine contract in Seattle. That's about as perfect as it gets and it's gone even worse then I could have hoped for. My least favorite day was the one the Yankees signed Ellsbury. I don't care what they spend if it's smart money. But we haven't seen smart money from the Yankee in almost 20 years. At least they weren't stupid enough to give Cano 10 years.

It's pretty sad that your favorite day as a fan is the day their best player left the team.
And, although I'm far from a member of the ARod fan club,  
TheMick7 : 11/25/2015 5:31 pm : link
when he came to the Yanks he was the best SS in baseball & agreed to play 3B.You can make any assumption you want about why (the obvious reason-Jeter) but bottom line is he was willing to do it. He's been an enigma during his Yankee career but always played hard and, mostly, smart. And, juice or not, he was a major contributor in the Yanks last championship!
interesting read as always  
RasputinPrime : 11/25/2015 5:39 pm : link
and it raises an important issue - fans don't need to know about the profit margins of their favorite sports franchises and they probably don't waste time thinking about it if the franchise uses their resources to field a team that is fun to watch.

I'm willing to be patient and I believe in the young players in our system. I've very happy we didn't give up on them (yet).
RE: RE: RE: Reason I view ARod as a mercenary...  
LS : 11/25/2015 8:09 pm : link
In comment 12644385 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
In comment 12644267 Matt M. said:


Quote:


In comment 12644102 Dan in the Springs said:


Quote:


He wanted to go to Boston - was willing to take a paycut to play for them.

Had an opportunity to stay with the Yankees and have Texas pay a significant portion of his contract. Could have possibly worked out an arrangement to stay on that contract and sign an extension but instead opted out, causing his own team to pick up ALL the remaining dollars on the contract as well as the additional ones he wanted.

To my knowledge he is the only Yankees that I know of who did those combination of things.

He didn't "cause" the Yankees to do anything. They made a bad decision to bid against themselves for him, when Cashman said they wouldn't. He is hardly a mercenary. Yes, he was willing to go to Boston, for less money, which is kind of the opposite. And, he didn't request a trade to the Yankees. The Rangers wanted to dump him and the Yankees were one of the few possible trading partners, even with Texas eating salary. Again, he didn't force Texas to make this move or eat salary.



Didn't mean to say he forced them to do anything. I know they weren't forced, but once he opted out of the contract the only way they could resign him was to pay out the Texas portion of the salary in addition to whatever he wanted on top of it.

Basically I see him as a guy who in essence did the following three things:

1. He wanted to go to Boston so bad he agreed to take less money to go there.
2. He wanted to make sure he got top dollar once he was traded to the Yankees so he opted out of a contract that was good for him and extremely favorable for the Yankees. Mind you, this was the same contract he was willing to play under for even LESS money with Boston.
3. After the Yankees made the stupid decision to sign him after opting out, he went about his professional life in such a way as to bring shame upon himself and the organization and caused himself to get suspended for a year.

In no way is he someone similar to any of the above listed free agents. Take issue with the "mercenary" term all you want, that's how I see him. A mercenary sells his loyalties. Even though ARod clearly preferred to go to Boston (he was willing to give them a discount) he was willing to sell his loyalties to the Yankees as long as they paid top dollar. Mercenary.


He was willing to go to Boston for less money to...play shortstop. A winning team. The Green Monster. Why wouldn't he want to go there? Then he gets everything he can from the Yanks. Why wouldn't he? Not understanding your logic.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Reason I view ARod as a mercenary...  
Dan in the Springs : 11/25/2015 8:25 pm : link
In comment 12644618 LS said:
Quote:
He was willing to go to Boston for less money to...play shortstop. A winning team. The Green Monster. Why wouldn't he want to go there? Then he gets everything he can from the Yanks. Why wouldn't he? Not understanding your logic.


Okay - let me say that I root for ARod on the Yanks, but I wish that we hadn't signed him. He fell out of favor with me as a player when he decided to give Boston a discount but bleed the Yankees for every last dollar.

If you don't understand that I'm sorry - don't know how to help you any more.
And in case you missed it...  
Dan in the Springs : 11/25/2015 8:41 pm : link
my biggest concern wasn't that the Yankees signed him, it is that he had gained a tremendous financial advantage for his team and he could have helped the Yankees by leveraging that advantage. When he was traded the Rangers were on the hook for a very large portion of his salary, so the Yankees were getting him on a discount.

Now he was already earning in the neighborhood of $25MM/yr on that contract, which is more money than he clearly needed, or even wanted if it meant being able to play for Boston. But rather than stay on that salary with Texas paying the bulk of it, he opted out of it, allowing the Rangers off he hook for the rest of that money. He then resigned with the Yankees for a raise. Now the net effect of this was that the Yankees had to not only pay the additional salary that he negotiated, but also pay the salary that Texas had previously been committed to. So for his salary to go up a bit per year the Yankees then had to pay something like an extra $20MM/yr for the few years remaining on the contract. Add in the luxury tax and he really hamstrung the Yankees.

Now on this thread we're discussing the Yankees mismanagement of funds and I've brought up that we shouldn't have paid ARod. That's been my position ever since he opted out of his first contract.

It kills me because with the Yankees he's been all about the money, but with Boston he was willing to forego the money, just so he could play SS with a contender, etc.
Cano was never the Yankees best player  
arniefez : 11/25/2015 9:10 pm : link
and at his age I was very happy to see him go.
Robinson Cano Is Still Good, but His $240M Megadeal Is Becoming an Albatross - ( New Window )
Dan in the Springs  
arniefez : 11/25/2015 9:15 pm : link
If Arod went to Boston he still would have opted out in 2007. He's aways been about the money. The Yankees didn't have to give him that crazy contract. Even coming off an MVP year Cashman wanted no part of him. Since 2001 when George took over as GM again the Yankees have been all about the stupid contracts. I'd be happy if they didn't sign a contract longer than 2 years until 2019 at this point. Get under the 189 for a season and stop paying their competition to beat them. Then they can go back to spending.
RE: Dan in the Springs  
Dan in the Springs : 11/25/2015 9:45 pm : link
In comment 12644710 arniefez said:
Quote:
If Arod went to Boston he still would have opted out in 2007.
You don't know this. Pure speculation. I admit it may be likely, but don't agree that it's a certainty this would have happened. I personally think Boston has acted a bit shrewder with handling FA contracts and might have approached his opt-out year as I wished the Yankees did.
Quote:
He's aways been about the money.
Absolutely NOT true. The trade that sent him to Boston from Texas which he wanted badly inluded a REDUCTION in salary for ARod. He approved that. He was totally willing to go take less money to be a Red Sox. Think about that.
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The Yankees didn't have to give him that crazy contract.
No dispute here. This is why I am angry about the Yankees spending money on him - they didn't have to.
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Even coming off an MVP year Cashman wanted no part of him.
I've heard that before, but have come to not believe most of the leaks that come out about who was behind which signing. Perhaps you have an actual legitimate source?
Quote:
Since 2001 when George took over as GM again the Yankees have been all about the stupid contracts. I'd be happy if they didn't sign a contract longer than 2 years until 2019 at this point. Get under the 189 for a season and stop paying their competition to beat them. Then they can go back to spending.
I'm on the same page with everything you've written in this last part.
the article continually conflates cash flow  
ed90631 : 11/28/2015 8:15 pm : link
with net income. A common mistake by writers who know nothing of what they write about.
RE: the article continually conflates cash flow  
Dunedin81 : 11/28/2015 10:58 pm : link
In comment 12647649 ed90631 said:
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with net income. A common mistake by writers who know nothing of what they write about.


You don't need to.be a CPA to acknowledge that if they're making roughly $470 mil after bond payments and revenue sharing and spending (payroll etc) well shy of $300 mil that this is a profitable endeavor.
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