Have Vujacic, Amundson & Thomas on the floor together? We went down by a lot with them on the floor & could never get back into it. Vujacic played 15 minutes without a single FG. His only 2 points were with 20 seconds left unreal
I think that's how they started the 2nd quarter? Either way, what a terrible lineup.
The thing that irritated me a bit was in the first quarter when Melo left due to foul trouble. Why bring in Thomas as your first guy off the bench?? Why not go to your 6th man, Galloway, and slide Afflalo over to the 3?? It can't be because he wanted to keep Afflalo as a two the entire game because towards the end the lineup was KP, Melo, Afflalo, Galloway and Calderon.
RE: having spent a bunch of time in eastern Europe over the last few years
but we miss JR Smith in the worst way. He could create his own shot. He could get to the rim.
They miss JR Smith?
Holy shit.
JR Smith minus the shitty attitude is a $10 million player. Hell, the Cavs still gave him 2 years, $10 million total. He can get to the rim. He can hit hard shots. He can hit threes. But most importantly he can do all that when the offense is just broken, as it has been in the 2nd unit for several games.
That's my point. Probably not worth the attitude problem. But we could really use someone with his package of skills/ability.
14 minutes.....2 points, 0-3 shooting, 1 Rebound. With awful defense. He looks like a fan plucked from the stands and allowed to play with NBA players as part of some gimmick.
Another issue is that when Fisher plays Seraphin and Thomas together as our "bigs" we get absolutely crushed on the boards. One combined rebound for the 2 of them in 27 minutes tonight. Uno.
That any good defensive team will shut us down because our guards can't penetrate and break down defenses. Until we find one that can - hopefully a more confident Grant - it'll be tough sledding. KP's low post game isn't far enough along to draw double teams either, so it still falls mostly on Melo.
Good news is most of us would've signed up for 8-8 with this rough early schedule. Hopefully this home stand yields better results.
for his rotation. Breen and Clyde questioned it, too, for the first time this season. At long last, it'll become a topic of conversation.
they did indeed. They elaborated on the whole thing though, right? They discussed what everyone has been discussing, here and elsewhere. He plays lots of guys. The fact is the team was shooting 29% at the half and it didn't have to do with rotations. The starters weren't shooting well. Porzingis was 0/5 with zero points.
Yet somehow they were only down by 11. That's because the Magic were shooting only 32.7 percent in the first half.
New York's bench was 3 for 20 from the field and scored only 12 points in the whole game. And I guess your point is that it's because of how he runs the bench that they can't score, rather than he runs the bench as he does BECAUSE they weren't scoring.
Maybe you can answer this for me because I think what always makes me completely confused about these coach/team discussions is that I end up feeling like I'm arguing with a fan of another team. So do you want Derek Fisher to learn and get better as a coach and ideally become a very good coach? Or would you prefer he not? Or do you just think he simply can't because he sucks and this is his limit of how good he can be?
As a side note, do you think Derek Fisher ever speaks to Phil Jackson about things like this? For instance, if some fans on a message board can comment on the way the game is run by Fisher and how he stifles the team and the game by the way he substitutes, do you think Phil would maybe contact him and ask him what the plan is since it's just so amazingly awful? I mean you can tell me I sound sarcastic but I'm genuinely curious why one of the best coaches of all time, the GM of this team and a coach of Fisher for years wouldn't contact him and be like "what the fuck are you doing? You're ruining the team" I imagine he wants to win and if it's so clear, then I really think he'd talk to him about it and advise etc....
So then I guess the question is, what would you do? And if Fish fixed this error, would you still just think he will always suck or would it maybe be worth it to see how he does for a bit more?
when I asked whether the Knicks are in trouble this morning. The starting unit is better than anticipated, because KP has started stronger than anyone expected.
However, the bench has really come back to earth--and below-- after a strong start. In addition, I worry about Melo. He's a career .455 shooter, and right now he's at .411. Is the knee fully healed? Will it ever fully heal? Dunno, but it makes me nervous.
all I'm asking of Derek Fisher is to stop giving playing time to Sasha Vujacic and Lou Amundson. That's it - baby steps. The only reason they're in the NBA is because the Knicks gave them contracts. We as fans shouldn't even know their jersey numbers because they should never be seen during games in anything but their warm-ups. Let them sit at the end of the bench and lead the cheers. If he wants to play the other 11 guys every night - go for it. Just make sure one of Melo, KP or Afflalo is on the floor at all times.
I'm rooting like hell for Fisher to become a great coach, but his first 100 games have been a trainwreck. Right now he's the worst coach in the NBA. You brought up Phil....I have no clue what input he's giving, but I doubt he's a proponent of playing 11 guys in the first 11 minutes of a game. This isn't hockey. I just hope Phil has the stones to make a change if it comes to that - Tyronn Lue and Luke Walton are two excellent candidates off the Phil tree who could probably coach the pants off Fisher right now.
Fisher does not use a 12 man rotation because guys aren't scoring. Come on now. He starts subbing all of these guys in every single game in the first quarter. Whether they are playing well or not. He's even on record as saying that he plays all of his players because he doesn't want them sitting and watching and not feeling part of the team. Again, nothing to do with scoring, or lack thereof. It is his predetermined strategy.
Also, sometimes good players will struggle to find their stroke. But when they are in and out of the lineup so much, it is next to impossible to find a rhythm. Sitting them on the bench for guys with half the talent isn't going to help this team, either short term or long term. There is a reason teams don't go 12 deep. The Knicks are the only team in the NBA that do it on a consistent basis. And the fact that Fisher hasn't established himself yet (not his fault, he's a brand new head coach) we have no idea if he can coach or not. So this opens him up for criticism a bit more than a coach that has had success in the league. When he proves that he's a capable coach, people will give him more slack. It's natural progression. He has to earn people's trust.
To start the 4th he had afflalo to start and then 30 seconds later took him out for vujacic...
In the 2nd he took out O'Quinn for amundson...why not go back to porzingis? Why the need to play amundson?
Team is struggling to score so he goes with lance Thomas and Lou amundson...how does that help with the scoring?...he just plays as many players as he can so he can say everyone played...
I don't want Fish to learn to become non-incompetent
" Do not blame that game on the defense, I don't care who you play, a HS team, a Junior College Team, a College Team or an NBA team" if you can't put the ball in the basket, you are not going to win.
the Bucks lost again last night, dropping their record to 6-9. Kidd was ejected for slapping the ball out of the ref's hands. Hope they crash and burn this year because fuck Greg Monroe and that hilarious media uproar when he signed elsewhere.
Fisher does not use a 12 man rotation because guys aren't scoring. Come on now. He starts subbing all of these guys in every single game in the first quarter. Whether they are playing well or not. He's even on record as saying that he plays all of his players because he doesn't want them sitting and watching and not feeling part of the team. Again, nothing to do with scoring, or lack thereof. It is his predetermined strategy.
Also, sometimes good players will struggle to find their stroke. But when they are in and out of the lineup so much, it is next to impossible to find a rhythm. Sitting them on the bench for guys with half the talent isn't going to help this team, either short term or long term. There is a reason teams don't go 12 deep. The Knicks are the only team in the NBA that do it on a consistent basis. And the fact that Fisher hasn't established himself yet (not his fault, he's a brand new head coach) we have no idea if he can coach or not. So this opens him up for criticism a bit more than a coach that has had success in the league. When he proves that he's a capable coach, people will give him more slack. It's natural progression. He has to earn people's trust.
k. come on now.
look at this box score. Tell me what's wrong with it
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828081
then move to this one
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828070
Better yet...go look at the box scores when we won 6 of 8 damn games and 4 in a row. Tell me what was bad about those games.
Then look at the last 2 which happen to be losses. There are 2 differences:
1) we shot like shit in the last 2
2) We lost those 2.
Knicks second unit can't score because the players--other than Williams--have limited offensive skills. Shortening the rotation is not going to make much difference.
Plus, right now they are going through a down period. Everybody looks worse than they are when they are in a slump.
Fisher does not use a 12 man rotation because guys aren't scoring. Come on now. He starts subbing all of these guys in every single game in the first quarter. Whether they are playing well or not. He's even on record as saying that he plays all of his players because he doesn't want them sitting and watching and not feeling part of the team. Again, nothing to do with scoring, or lack thereof. It is his predetermined strategy.
Also, sometimes good players will struggle to find their stroke. But when they are in and out of the lineup so much, it is next to impossible to find a rhythm. Sitting them on the bench for guys with half the talent isn't going to help this team, either short term or long term. There is a reason teams don't go 12 deep. The Knicks are the only team in the NBA that do it on a consistent basis. And the fact that Fisher hasn't established himself yet (not his fault, he's a brand new head coach) we have no idea if he can coach or not. So this opens him up for criticism a bit more than a coach that has had success in the league. When he proves that he's a capable coach, people will give him more slack. It's natural progression. He has to earn people's trust.
k. come on now.
look at this box score. Tell me what's wrong with it
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828081
then move to this one
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828070
Better yet...go look at the box scores when we won 6 of 8 damn games and 4 in a row. Tell me what was bad about those games.
Then look at the last 2 which happen to be losses. There are 2 differences:
1) we shot like shit in the last 2
2) We lost those 2.
Happy Thanksgiving.
But the whole point of running an offensive system is to get higher percentage shots. Yea, sometimes teams will shoot poorly, but looking at the box scores doesn't tell the whole story.
Both the Heat game and the game last night saw the second unit basically do nothing as far as running an offense. They looked like they were 5 guys who got divvied up into teams in a pickup game.
Before the season, the 2nd unit was supposed to be all about running. Right now, this team has the fewest transition points per game in the NBA. Even lower than last year. The thought was there would be aspects of the Triangle, mixed with high PnR. The second unit hasn't run anything close to either of them. In fact, I think I only saw them run one Triangle set the entire time (the second unit).
To Vanzetti's point - The ideas behind the Triangle rely on movement, and players being free to take shots when they have a good opportunity. That's all well and good, but when you're using back of the bench players, where there is an obvious talent gap, they won't be able to take advantage of the opportunities as well as the better players. Sure, Amundson might get an open look - but I don't trust him to hit a shot consistently at all. He's a straight runner. Vujacic is similar. He has shown his inability to hit shots consistently. Players who can't consistently capitalize on opportunities do more detriment than good.
Staggering the lineups, and having one of Melo, KP and Afflalo always in the game gives each unit a scoring threat - a guy who can consistently make a team pay for playing off them. That, in turn, frees up the other players to get better looks.
Calderon is a great shooter, and he's been on a run since the shitty start of the year. But his success has been aided by playing with scoring threats, leaving him open to capitalize on opportunities. If you're asking him to generate his own offense, then he's gonna have trouble. He's not quick, and he won't slash. He can't post up. This idea applies to the rest of the players as well. Williams is probably the only other scoring threat, but he has yet to prove it, and he has yet to prove that he can work within the offense.
Agree with that. May happen next time.
They must be fucking idiots. The rotations are not to be questioned.
agree with that.
Shhhhhh. Questioning the rotation is not an appropriate subject of Knicks threads.
Quote:
Afflalo porzingis or melo on the court at all times...
agree with that.
I could buy Calderon too. He can shoot.
2nd half he actually did that. But he should've realized that after the bench got outscored 31 - 4 by Miami last game.
I know Williams has struggled but I think fisher needs to use him
You sure? I know Afflalo started the 4th, but then after 30 seconds was subbed out for Vujacic (which was odd).
But then it says Porzingis was already in to start the 4th.
[ORL 74-63] Oladipo Pullup Jump shot: Made (16 PTS) Assist: Gordon (1 AST)
Afflalo Jump Shot: Missed 11:30
11:29 Team Rebound
Afflalo Substitution replaced by Vujacic 11:29
11:19 Oladipo Driving Layup Shot: Missed
O'Quinn Rebound (Off:1 Def:2) 11:18
Vujacic 3pt Shot: Missed 11:02
11:01 Nicholson Rebound (Off:0 Def:2)
Galloway Foul: Shooting (3 PF) (2 FTA) (P Fraher) 10:50
10:50
[ORL 75-63] Oladipo Free Throw 1 of 2 (17 PTS)
10:50
[ORL 76-63] Oladipo Free Throw 2 of 2 (18 PTS)
Porzingis 3pt Shot: Missed 10:34
Team Rebound 10:32
Vujacic Foul: Offensive (2 PF) (P Fraher) 10:30
Vujacic Turnover : Foul (1 TO) 10:30
Quote:
but we miss JR Smith in the worst way. He could create his own shot. He could get to the rim.
I know Williams has struggled but I think fisher needs to use him
Maybe. But I really just think we lack the player we really need -- some sort of bench scorer. Either a slasher/shooter like JR or a post scorer.
They miss JR Smith?
Holy shit.
I think that's how they started the 2nd quarter? Either way, what a terrible lineup.
The thing that irritated me a bit was in the first quarter when Melo left due to foul trouble. Why bring in Thomas as your first guy off the bench?? Why not go to your 6th man, Galloway, and slide Afflalo over to the 3?? It can't be because he wanted to keep Afflalo as a two the entire game because towards the end the lineup was KP, Melo, Afflalo, Galloway and Calderon.
Idioms!
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
but we miss JR Smith in the worst way. He could create his own shot. He could get to the rim.
They miss JR Smith?
Holy shit.
JR Smith minus the shitty attitude is a $10 million player. Hell, the Cavs still gave him 2 years, $10 million total. He can get to the rim. He can hit hard shots. He can hit threes. But most importantly he can do all that when the offense is just broken, as it has been in the 2nd unit for several games.
That's my point. Probably not worth the attitude problem. But we could really use someone with his package of skills/ability.
Looks like we got a new GM, folks.
Another issue is that when Fisher plays Seraphin and Thomas together as our "bigs" we get absolutely crushed on the boards. One combined rebound for the 2 of them in 27 minutes tonight. Uno.
Good news is most of us would've signed up for 8-8 with this rough early schedule. Hopefully this home stand yields better results.
they did indeed. They elaborated on the whole thing though, right? They discussed what everyone has been discussing, here and elsewhere. He plays lots of guys. The fact is the team was shooting 29% at the half and it didn't have to do with rotations. The starters weren't shooting well. Porzingis was 0/5 with zero points.
Yet somehow they were only down by 11. That's because the Magic were shooting only 32.7 percent in the first half.
New York's bench was 3 for 20 from the field and scored only 12 points in the whole game. And I guess your point is that it's because of how he runs the bench that they can't score, rather than he runs the bench as he does BECAUSE they weren't scoring.
Maybe you can answer this for me because I think what always makes me completely confused about these coach/team discussions is that I end up feeling like I'm arguing with a fan of another team. So do you want Derek Fisher to learn and get better as a coach and ideally become a very good coach? Or would you prefer he not? Or do you just think he simply can't because he sucks and this is his limit of how good he can be?
As a side note, do you think Derek Fisher ever speaks to Phil Jackson about things like this? For instance, if some fans on a message board can comment on the way the game is run by Fisher and how he stifles the team and the game by the way he substitutes, do you think Phil would maybe contact him and ask him what the plan is since it's just so amazingly awful? I mean you can tell me I sound sarcastic but I'm genuinely curious why one of the best coaches of all time, the GM of this team and a coach of Fisher for years wouldn't contact him and be like "what the fuck are you doing? You're ruining the team" I imagine he wants to win and if it's so clear, then I really think he'd talk to him about it and advise etc....
So then I guess the question is, what would you do? And if Fish fixed this error, would you still just think he will always suck or would it maybe be worth it to see how he does for a bit more?
However, the bench has really come back to earth--and below-- after a strong start. In addition, I worry about Melo. He's a career .455 shooter, and right now he's at .411. Is the knee fully healed? Will it ever fully heal? Dunno, but it makes me nervous.
I'm rooting like hell for Fisher to become a great coach, but his first 100 games have been a trainwreck. Right now he's the worst coach in the NBA. You brought up Phil....I have no clue what input he's giving, but I doubt he's a proponent of playing 11 guys in the first 11 minutes of a game. This isn't hockey. I just hope Phil has the stones to make a change if it comes to that - Tyronn Lue and Luke Walton are two excellent candidates off the Phil tree who could probably coach the pants off Fisher right now.
And anything record wise this season is gravy. You guys finally drafted a potential superstar.
Also, sometimes good players will struggle to find their stroke. But when they are in and out of the lineup so much, it is next to impossible to find a rhythm. Sitting them on the bench for guys with half the talent isn't going to help this team, either short term or long term. There is a reason teams don't go 12 deep. The Knicks are the only team in the NBA that do it on a consistent basis. And the fact that Fisher hasn't established himself yet (not his fault, he's a brand new head coach) we have no idea if he can coach or not. So this opens him up for criticism a bit more than a coach that has had success in the league. When he proves that he's a capable coach, people will give him more slack. It's natural progression. He has to earn people's trust.
In the 2nd he took out O'Quinn for amundson...why not go back to porzingis? Why the need to play amundson?
Team is struggling to score so he goes with lance Thomas and Lou amundson...how does that help with the scoring?...he just plays as many players as he can so he can say everyone played...
Also, sometimes good players will struggle to find their stroke. But when they are in and out of the lineup so much, it is next to impossible to find a rhythm. Sitting them on the bench for guys with half the talent isn't going to help this team, either short term or long term. There is a reason teams don't go 12 deep. The Knicks are the only team in the NBA that do it on a consistent basis. And the fact that Fisher hasn't established himself yet (not his fault, he's a brand new head coach) we have no idea if he can coach or not. So this opens him up for criticism a bit more than a coach that has had success in the league. When he proves that he's a capable coach, people will give him more slack. It's natural progression. He has to earn people's trust.
k. come on now.
look at this box score. Tell me what's wrong with it
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828081
then move to this one
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828070
Better yet...go look at the box scores when we won 6 of 8 damn games and 4 in a row. Tell me what was bad about those games.
Then look at the last 2 which happen to be losses. There are 2 differences:
1) we shot like shit in the last 2
2) We lost those 2.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Plus, right now they are going through a down period. Everybody looks worse than they are when they are in a slump.
8-8 is fine for this team
Quote:
Fisher does not use a 12 man rotation because guys aren't scoring. Come on now. He starts subbing all of these guys in every single game in the first quarter. Whether they are playing well or not. He's even on record as saying that he plays all of his players because he doesn't want them sitting and watching and not feeling part of the team. Again, nothing to do with scoring, or lack thereof. It is his predetermined strategy.
Also, sometimes good players will struggle to find their stroke. But when they are in and out of the lineup so much, it is next to impossible to find a rhythm. Sitting them on the bench for guys with half the talent isn't going to help this team, either short term or long term. There is a reason teams don't go 12 deep. The Knicks are the only team in the NBA that do it on a consistent basis. And the fact that Fisher hasn't established himself yet (not his fault, he's a brand new head coach) we have no idea if he can coach or not. So this opens him up for criticism a bit more than a coach that has had success in the league. When he proves that he's a capable coach, people will give him more slack. It's natural progression. He has to earn people's trust.
k. come on now.
look at this box score. Tell me what's wrong with it
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828081
then move to this one
http://espn.go.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=400828070
Better yet...go look at the box scores when we won 6 of 8 damn games and 4 in a row. Tell me what was bad about those games.
Then look at the last 2 which happen to be losses. There are 2 differences:
1) we shot like shit in the last 2
2) We lost those 2.
Happy Thanksgiving.
But the whole point of running an offensive system is to get higher percentage shots. Yea, sometimes teams will shoot poorly, but looking at the box scores doesn't tell the whole story.
Both the Heat game and the game last night saw the second unit basically do nothing as far as running an offense. They looked like they were 5 guys who got divvied up into teams in a pickup game.
Before the season, the 2nd unit was supposed to be all about running. Right now, this team has the fewest transition points per game in the NBA. Even lower than last year. The thought was there would be aspects of the Triangle, mixed with high PnR. The second unit hasn't run anything close to either of them. In fact, I think I only saw them run one Triangle set the entire time (the second unit).
To Vanzetti's point - The ideas behind the Triangle rely on movement, and players being free to take shots when they have a good opportunity. That's all well and good, but when you're using back of the bench players, where there is an obvious talent gap, they won't be able to take advantage of the opportunities as well as the better players. Sure, Amundson might get an open look - but I don't trust him to hit a shot consistently at all. He's a straight runner. Vujacic is similar. He has shown his inability to hit shots consistently. Players who can't consistently capitalize on opportunities do more detriment than good.
Staggering the lineups, and having one of Melo, KP and Afflalo always in the game gives each unit a scoring threat - a guy who can consistently make a team pay for playing off them. That, in turn, frees up the other players to get better looks.
Calderon is a great shooter, and he's been on a run since the shitty start of the year. But his success has been aided by playing with scoring threats, leaving him open to capitalize on opportunities. If you're asking him to generate his own offense, then he's gonna have trouble. He's not quick, and he won't slash. He can't post up. This idea applies to the rest of the players as well. Williams is probably the only other scoring threat, but he has yet to prove it, and he has yet to prove that he can work within the offense.