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Time to Follow the Pathers lead???

superspynyg : 11/27/2015 1:58 pm
And start investing some top draft picks in the lber corp? They play a 4-3 like we do.

While watching the Dallas shelling yesterday, I like everyone noticed how good their lber corps is. Why not, they have invested top picks in the group. Kuechly was a top 10 pick, Davis was a first rounder and Shaq Thompson was a first rounder this year. There is no doubt that this group makes the whole defense better including Josh Norman and their Dl. They were getting pressure with an aging Jared Allen. Yes They do have Michael Johnson but he has been injured last few games.

I like Kennard, I think that we might have stuck a little gold with him. But we can't expect to do it 2 more times. When we add lbers in free agency they have been other teams castaways or viewed as not a high an option to keep or their team would have resigned them. I know that when we traded for Beason he did/does have a positive effect on our def, but he is injured too much.

I know we have a lot of holes DE, WR, OT, S (Id say cb but
I'm going on the assumption that we sign Prince this off season Think that its time start improving this often left behind def position.

Who will support me with this initiative???

Thats Panthers not  
superspynyg : 11/27/2015 1:59 pm : link
Pathers...before you aholes jump on it@!
superspynyg  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/27/2015 2:03 pm : link
Sure, but the Giants need help at a lot spots. And one could argue that the Panthers' defense is so good because of their two DT's.
The Panthers also have a LB  
illmatic : 11/27/2015 2:07 pm : link
who will probably be one of the best to ever play the position by the time his career is over, assuming he stays healthy. The Giants could take a LB in the first round for the next five years in a row and not even come close to any of those drafted LBs being as good as Kuechly.

Not saying I don't agree. They obviously need help at the position and if the right fit is there, go for it. But the Panthers kind of lucked out with getting him. He's the rare type of guy that just transforms your whole defense.
Of course the Dts are good  
superspynyg : 11/27/2015 2:09 pm : link
but its Kuechly and Davis that are the true stars. They would make Hankins and Bromley much better.

How many times has Kuechley been nominated for def player of the year? Now I know that he is elite but we could use upgrade of talent at this position!
As good as the Panthers LBs are  
Emil : 11/27/2015 2:11 pm : link
There entire defense is good! Not to take anything away from the LB play, but it's much easier to play LB when your DTs dominate inside and keep you clean of blockers. Their CB play has also been outstanding, and Harper is one of the better in the box safeties in the league. It's just a tough D all around, not just the LBs.
I'm  
Giantfootball025 : 11/27/2015 2:11 pm : link
not sure there is 1 way to succeed. The league tends to try and copy whoever won the superbowl, but it's so hard now to win in this league consistently. The recipe imo is and has always been drafting well. You need to hit on your top picks and you need to be healthy throughout the year (which seems to be the hardest and most unpredictable). If you always have a solid mix of young hungry talented players and mix that with good solid vets, you'll be in the mix for the super bowl.
Eli should refer to himself as "Super Eli"  
Vanzetti : 11/27/2015 2:11 pm : link
and rip off his shirt whenever he scores a TD

RE: As good as the Panthers LBs are  
superspynyg : 11/27/2015 2:15 pm : link
In comment 12646506 Emil said:
Quote:
There entire defense is good! Not to take anything away from the LB play, but it's much easier to play LB when your DTs dominate inside and keep you clean of blockers. Their CB play has also been outstanding, and Harper is one of the better in the box safeties in the league. It's just a tough D all around, not just the LBs.


True dat but they obviously think lber is very important to spend first round picks on the position!
The Giants have used first round picks on  
superspynyg : 11/27/2015 2:18 pm : link
Cb (Prince), DE (JPP), and even S (I consider Collins a first round talent even though he went first overall in round 2).
Well  
Emil : 11/27/2015 2:20 pm : link
Kuechly and Davis are the types of LBs you spend 1st round picks on. There aren't too many of those year in and year out.
I will support you in this LB initiative...  
Jimmy Googs : 11/27/2015 2:21 pm : link
but it still comes down to who are the best players available when our draft slot is up, and if that means the DE or CB (illustrative only) at that particular spot then so be it.

I absolutely believe a solid MLB with good wheels becomes an immediate leader on this defense, and would quickly translate to better play on 3rd down.

Never bought into the Giants "invest elsewhere" theory because they hoped they had a solution in Beason and invested in him. He just obviously wasn't the solution.


"You mean, actually draft LBs with premium picks? Why do that?"  
Emlen'sGremlins : 11/27/2015 2:22 pm : link
- Jerry Reese
- Jon C
RE: I will support you in this LB initiative...  
superspynyg : 11/27/2015 2:24 pm : link
In comment 12646523 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
but it still comes down to who are the best players available when our draft slot is up, and if that means the DE or CB (illustrative only) at that particular spot then so be it.

I absolutely believe a solid MLB with good wheels becomes an immediate leader on this defense, and would quickly translate to better play on 3rd down.

Never bought into the Giants "invest elsewhere" theory because they hoped they had a solution in Beason and invested in him. He just obviously wasn't the solution.



Oh absolutely. If the talent is not there in rd 1 then you look to best talent, but I think that they value other postions higher in rd 1.
...  
Mdgiantsfan : 11/27/2015 2:29 pm : link
...it's a tiring subject that is only magnified when I watch Carolina play smh Granted Luke and Davis are very good, athletic LBs that show up all over the field making plays, but heck even Beason looked light years better than what we've had at the position when we first traded for him.

Again this is a tiresome subject, but I hope sometime soon we do invest in some talented, capable LBs whether it be via the draft or free agency.
superspynyg  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/27/2015 2:33 pm : link
I've never heard of a LB making a DT look good.

But your point is well taken.

That said, Giants need help in a lot of spots. They only have six picks. And there are not a lot of top 4-3 linebackers coming out of college now.
RE: superspynyg  
superspynyg : 11/27/2015 2:50 pm : link
In comment 12646545 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I've never heard of a LB making a DT look good.

But your point is well taken.

That said, Giants need help in a lot of spots. They only have six picks. And there are not a lot of top 4-3 linebackers coming out of college now.


Each line helps the others. If a DT misses a tackle and the lber is right there to help out then...
lets no wait till round 4  
superspynyg : 11/27/2015 2:51 pm : link
for one. If a top lber is there when we pick and he is ranked higher than other players...take a good long look!
You they do need a lot of help on Defense. I would probably  
Jimmy Googs : 11/27/2015 2:54 pm : link
rank these as the top 5 needs, in order, on Defense:

1) a DE with burst
2) a rangy Free Safety (so Collins can play SS)
3) a MLB with decent wheels

and a decent slot corner is probably a close #4.
RE: superspynyg  
chopperhatch : 11/27/2015 2:55 pm : link
In comment 12646545 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I've never heard of a LB making a DT look good.

But your point is well taken.

That said, Giants need help in a lot of spots. They only have six picks. And there are not a lot of top 4-3 linebackers coming out of college now.


Eric, you can make an argument that our LBs of the 80s and 90s made the DLs OK good. Erik Howard and Eric Dorsey were just guys. George Martin was solid. Mike Fox? Leonard Marshall was the best until like Keith Hamilton.
we don't need to follow  
bluepepper : 11/27/2015 3:02 pm : link
other teams formulas. We had a successful one ourselves not that long ago. Remember this - "You can never have enough pass rushers". Well we either forgot it or flopped on the execution phase. There's nothing wrong with this defense that a good pass rush wouldn't cure. JPP helps but when we won we had 3 guys or more who could get after the QB.
Yes you could  
Semipro Lineman : 11/27/2015 3:41 pm : link
Quote:
Eric, you can make an argument that our LBs of the 80s and 90s made the DLs OK good. Erik Howard and Eric Dorsey were just guys. George Martin was solid. Mike Fox? Leonard Marshall was the best until like Keith Hamilton.


But you would be wrong. So very wrong. Seriously wrong. Look back and see how many probowls the defensive line had back in the LT era. You can't possibly said that was due to being carried by the linebackers.

Listen, I know this is BBI where everyone exaggerates to make their point but even by our standard saying Martin was merely solid is a ridiculous over-exaggeration. The man had more career sacks than Leonard Marshall who's you are acknowledging was more than just a guy. (Sacks weren't an official stat for the first half of Martins career so he is credited with 46 by the NFL and 96 by the Giants.)

Btw, you also left out probowler Jim Burt and finally, Mike Fox played in the early 90's during the Dan Reeve's era. How is he even being mentioned with the others?
cannot believe  
area junc : 11/27/2015 4:15 pm : link
anyone would even fathom that linebackers aren't important in a 43. beyond absurd

if i was a GM MLB would be right up there w/QB
Defensive tackles can make linebackers better by keeping them clean  
Shepherdsam : 11/27/2015 4:17 pm : link
and allowing them to make plays, see the 2000 Ravens for a good example of this.

The other way around? Other than playing well and making the D as a whole look good, I'm not sure I see any specific examples.
Of course, that doesn't make LBs not important,  
Shepherdsam : 11/27/2015 4:19 pm : link
I'm not sure anyone has ever actually said that.
I personally don't care how they are acquired  
JFIB : 11/27/2015 4:26 pm : link
But we need an upgrade at at least 2 of the 3 spots.
Shep  
ColHowPepper : 11/27/2015 4:37 pm : link
Reese's comment (this thread, or elsewhere today and much referred to:) "Can you name the LBs on our SB teams?" + the emphasis on drafting DEs, DTs and DBs--they predominate over LBs in number and in draft round, it's not close.

What really gets to me though is that Reese and the FO generally have misjudged in a significant way how the NFL game is being played: at one time DEs + DTs + CBs made sense. In the past several years, shorter drops, quicker patterns, greater use of TEs and slot receivers in crossing and short patterns--we have lived with the mediocrity of the Giants' LB position during this period and and it has cost the team over and over and over.
Yeah, I don't really get the comment.  
Shepherdsam : 11/27/2015 4:43 pm : link
Is there anyone here who can't name them? Sounds like Reese might have been a little defensive.

Even so, it's not like he said he could field a team with the beat writers at LB.
EG  
JonC : 11/27/2015 4:52 pm : link
Always the inaccurate and disingenuous loser.

Here's the facts : NYG has built SB winning 4-3 defenses around premium DEs, very good DTs and CBs, a MIKE leader, and a number of spare parts, basically.

Due to the salary cap, and their proven model, it's unlikely they start doing things much differently. As Eric said, the college ranks isn't exactly pumping out 4-3 LBs, especially MIKEs. But year after year, you can find quality DEs and CBs.

If they want a MIKE upgrade, it will most likely come via UFA so start scouring the prospects for free agency first. They just spent on JT Thomas, so a WILL is unlikely.

it's a close call  
ColHowPepper : 11/27/2015 4:52 pm : link
(:
They need a DE in the pipeline and to retain or replace JPP+Prince  
JonC : 11/27/2015 4:54 pm : link
They need a slot CB, FS, and they need Bromley to step up and perform.

If those things occur, this defense takes a few steps fwd before long.
The very lage majority of the off season  
USAF NYG Fan : 11/27/2015 5:29 pm : link
Needs to focus on the defense. A dominant MLB would be awesome but I'd be just as happy with an across the board improvement. I still think there may be a big splash coming in FA next year.
bluepepper  
JonC : 11/27/2015 5:36 pm : link
ding ding.

Ultimately, perhaps that will not prove to be the winning formula of choice. But, it's safe to suggest they're more likely to run with the formula that won them two championships rather than start tearing down the defense with Eli turning 35 in a matter of weeks.
Eli's window is closing....  
Doomster : 11/27/2015 5:47 pm : link
Next season, has to almost finish the rebuild....you need extreme luck that a top LB would be there when we pick....considering all the holes and FA holes we have to fill next season, there will be priorities, and I don't think LB is one of them....well, it is a priority, it's just lower on the totem pole......more likely FA's fill that spot.....
Giants Championship D's were built on pass rushers  
UberAlias : 11/27/2015 5:55 pm : link
Seattle had a dominant secondary. 49ERs and Carolina had good D's with some really good LBers. Game changing plays are game changing plays. It doesn't matter who is making them. You take a playmaker on D where ever you can get them.

Aside from that, it terms of how to build strategically, you build to beat your division. As far as that goes, I am tired of Philly and Dallas kicking our asses up front. You don't pass up a difference maker on defense, but all things being equal, I'm building from front to back, on both sides. And that's acknowledging some big needs elsewhere.

Yeah great idea  
JCin332 : 11/27/2015 6:50 pm : link
lets follow the lead of an historically bad franchise thats never won a SB but is having a very good 2015 season after 11 games..

Brilliant..

I dunno  
mrvax : 11/27/2015 6:56 pm : link
if you consider the Dline, LBers and backfield as 3 defensive units and could only well fund 2 of the 3, I'd select Dline & backfield in today's NFL.

It's clearly a passing league now. You have to rush that bastid trying to throw the football and cover the guys who are trying to catch it.

I'm not saying that LBers are a thing of the past and I realize what good backers can do for you, but I'm sticking with Dline & backfield and I get my LBers with whatever is left over.
I'd try to pry  
mrvax : 11/27/2015 7:01 pm : link
Ziggy Ansah away from the Lions during the off season. Pair him with JPP. See if Moore or OO will turn into solid players. If the Giants can somehow land Ansah & re-sign a healthy JPP, the defense will improve dramatically.

RE: I'd try to pry  
Toth029 : 11/27/2015 7:13 pm : link
In comment 12646792 mrvax said:
Quote:
Ziggy Ansah away from the Lions during the off season. Pair him with JPP. See if Moore or OO will turn into solid players. If the Giants can somehow land Ansah & re-sign a healthy JPP, the defense will improve dramatically.
Lot of cash on the DE's.

They do need a lot of things, DE being one. Add another rangy FS is necessary. Obviously a MLB. Perhaps another DT unless Bromley impresses.
RE: Eli's window is closing....  
Emil : 11/27/2015 7:13 pm : link
In comment 12646750 Doomster said:
Quote:
Next season, has to almost finish the rebuild....you need extreme luck that a top LB would be there when we pick....considering all the holes and FA holes we have to fill next season, there will be priorities, and I don't think LB is one of them....well, it is a priority, it's just lower on the totem pole......more likely FA's fill that spot.....


You are so right. Eli probably has 5 years. You spend the cash over the next two years or so, cause by 2020, it's a rebuild anyway. (holy *#(%&*#@ 2020!!)

So Coughlin coaches until he is 74 then, right :)
RE: I'd try to pry  
blueblood : 11/27/2015 7:22 pm : link
In comment 12646792 mrvax said:
Quote:
Ziggy Ansah away from the Lions during the off season. Pair him with JPP. See if Moore or OO will turn into solid players. If the Giants can somehow land Ansah & re-sign a healthy JPP, the defense will improve dramatically.


I dont think he is a FA next year.. unless he has an opt out
RE: RE: I'd try to pry  
mrvax : 11/27/2015 10:38 pm : link
In comment 12646806 blueblood said:
Quote:

I dont think he is a FA next year.. unless he has an opt out


You are correct. He has 1 mire year on his rookie deal. I was hearing several weeks ago the Lions might be having a fire sale. If I were the Giants, I'd at least approach them and see if they can get an offer from the Lions. Can't hurt to ask...

We still can hope Moore gets better at stopping the run and OO heals up real well. Wynn is a good young DE also but not know for pass rushing.

Silly to consider the SB champs of the past are the only  
Jimmy Googs : 11/27/2015 11:12 pm : link
way to build for the future. There is no one gameplan to building a defense. We were fortunate to have strength of the team in DEs like Strahan, Osi, Tuck and JPP so it was convenient to be non-chalant at LB & CB and get by.

No longer. We don't have the DEs of the past. We should stengthen all parts equally or opportunistically as needed. And of all all the areas we are weakest at LB.
Giants will have a new MLB next year  
aquidneck : 11/28/2015 7:27 am : link
Doesn't matter how he is acquired. In the draft you take the player who you think can make the biggest impact on the NFL, the league. Not on your particular team. You want the superstar guy. The guy with superstar potential regardless of position. All the rest are just pieces and often can be picked up in FA or off the scrap heap.
what is  
jtfuoco : 11/28/2015 11:59 am : link
amazing about the panther LBs is how well Davis has come back from two major knee injuries at the time while Beason has not been able to regain his form.

However looking at the talent we have at DE and what is available in the next draft I think it might be time to move to a 3-4. I know I will get blasted for saying this but trying to find top pass rushing DE talent is really hard and really expensive to keep. With the league all going to a quick pass offense it just makes sense that you would be better off running a 3-4 or a 3-3-5
or follow the Seahawks lead (DBs)  
chris r : 11/28/2015 12:06 pm : link
or the the Giants lead from a few seasons back (DL).

I think you just get good players at any position and hope you have a good enough coach to make the scheme fit the talent.
RE: Eli's window is closing....  
Big Blue '56 : 11/28/2015 12:28 pm : link
In comment 12646750 Doomster said:
Quote:
Next season, has to almost finish the rebuild....you need extreme luck that a top LB would be there when we pick....considering all the holes and FA holes we have to fill next season, there will be priorities, and I don't think LB is one of them....well, it is a priority, it's just lower on the totem pole......more likely FA's fill that spot.....


Again with the window closing..If you believe Eli has 5-7 years left the window is hardly closing..Eli and Brady (save for the career-ending injury) should or let's say COULD, play into their 40s if they so choose, imo
I think if you get four more strong seasons from Eli  
JonC : 11/28/2015 3:58 pm : link
Count your blessings. He'd be nearly 39 after that, and very few QBs play even that long. Add in TC's age and the pressure on the whole org right now, and it's probably most accurate to suggest they've got 3-4 seasons at most left to make a third SB push under Eli.
Brady will be 39 and shows no evidence of slowing down.  
Big Blue '56 : 11/28/2015 4:29 pm : link
Peyton unfortunately had 4 neck surgeries that might derail his playing until 40..Eli will be 35 starting next season and totally healthy..His arm is still strong..His mind still acutely functioning..

It is far from a stretch to predict another 5-7 years or more for Eli..He's not like 99% of other QBs who approach 40 and are breaking down..Eli is an ironman like the other 1%...

If he gets hurt in career-threatening fashion, all bets are off obviously..

Brady is the anomaly  
JonC : 11/28/2015 4:42 pm : link
Peyton is looking pretty close to done, and while neither suggest anything regarding Eli, history shows very few QBs capable of leading a team to a SB win in their late 30s.

Eli at 35-38, I'll wager on him, beyond 38 I wouldn't touch the wager.

If one were to research it  
JonC : 11/28/2015 4:46 pm : link
I'd guesstimate most elite QBs start to decline past the point of title winning abilities at 37-38, at latest.
I'm sure,  
Big Blue '56 : 11/28/2015 4:51 pm : link
but I believe Eli will prove to be an anomaly as well..We don't know for sure and we don't have a large sample-size of those making the throws at age 40...But there's nothing in Eli's history that would preclude hm from emulating Brady, longevity-wise, imv..

But it's still speculative at best..TBD
It's that 2011 template  
ghost718 : 11/28/2015 5:03 pm : link
Don't draft linebackers,just add another 100 pounds to Eli's load.He'll make us look good.
BB56  
JonC : 11/28/2015 5:05 pm : link
I envy your optimism, but I'll side with the percentages and hope you're right. grin
RE: BB56  
Big Blue '56 : 11/28/2015 5:19 pm : link
In comment 12647473 JonC said:
Quote:
I envy your optimism, but I'll side with the percentages and hope you're right. grin


If you're proven right and it's perhaps only 4 more years at a high level, then I'll certainly take it..:)
If Davis was a Giant..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 11/28/2015 5:32 pm : link
I'm sure a few posters would have wanted him run out of town years ago for being a "China doll".
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