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So, how does this play out?

Sean : 11/29/2015 6:58 pm
currently 5-6 and tied for first place (although the tiebreaker and schedule favors the Redskins).

What the Giants gave away today was the opportunity to win the division at 8-8, that likely won't cut it now. The Redskins have two games against Dallas with no Romo and a game against Philly and who knows how they will play. I see Washington going 4-2 in the division and likely 8-8. The Giants finishing 8-8 would be optimistic, considering they have the Panthers and a trip to Minnesota on the schedule. The Giants are not above losing to the Jets or even Miami on the road. So, finishing 8-8 and missing the playoffs would yield what?

New front office?
New coaching staff?

I don't buy the whole 'the Giants don't fire GM's' argument. That is a lazy argument and John is not Wellington.

I don't buy the whole 'Giants are rebuilding' argument because the NFL is year to year. There is 20-30 percent roster turnover every year regardless, teams don't rebuild with a veteran HC and franchise QB.

I've read a lot of posts today talking about injuries and lack of offensive weapons, but who does that fall on? Injuries happen to every team and good teams rally despite them.

So what does everyone think will happen and want? Could 8-8 yield status quo?
Mara has been mad as hell at the end of the season before  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 11/29/2015 7:02 pm : link
and he's threatened to take action but has found reasons not to. You really think he changes course this year? He'll claim injuries, or 'we were in most games until the end'...he'll find a reason. Maybe they'll fire Quinn four years too late and that will be it.
RE: Mara has been mad as hell at the end of the season before  
sundayatone : 11/29/2015 7:06 pm : link
In comment 12651176 Bold Ruler said:
Quote:
and he's threatened to take action but has found reasons not to. You really think he changes course this year? He'll claim injuries, or 'we were in most games until the end'...he'll find a reason. Maybe they'll fire Quinn four years too late and that will be it.


he will also say he thinks we have a talented team and good people in the FO even though the record will not reflect it.
Meaningful games in December is the benchmark for this year  
Diver_Down : 11/29/2015 7:07 pm : link
Some would point to the playoffs as a benchmark, but with the injuries to the core of the team, the coaching staff will be safe for another year to build on the progress.
How long have you been a Giants fan? If it's for  
RDJR : 11/29/2015 7:08 pm : link
any significant length of time you know the answer.
Never been on the Reese haters side  
map7711 : 11/29/2015 7:09 pm : link
But wow this team does lack talent all around. It's embarrassing .
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 11/29/2015 7:09 pm : link
He'll hold his end-of-year press conference...talk tough...appease many fans...others not so much. They'll fire a coach or two. Everyone else will be back. They'll gamble that Reese will significantly upgrade the roster in FA despite the fact that top talent rarely hits the open market and Reese has a so-so history at best of judging the FA market.
if he fires anyone at the end of the year  
BigBlueCane : 11/29/2015 7:10 pm : link
it will be Reese not Coughlin.

IF the team quits at any point going foward, I can see that changing.
I think this is really the year to make a change,  
Simms11 : 11/29/2015 7:14 pm : link
If we do not get into the playoffs. TC received a long enough rope and has been given ample opportunity over the past 4 years. Not only do we need better talent, but we need to look at trying a new direction under another Head Coach and staff. It hasn't gotten any better the past 4 years. Injuries have gotten worse, record has not been good, the team has been non-competitive last three years. This year a little more competitive, but it's not enough. There comes a time where you just have to move on and see what the next guy can do. 5 more games for this team to make something out of this season. I hope the players fully understand what's at stake, besides a playoff spot here!
I could see  
Sammo85 : 11/29/2015 7:14 pm : link
Giants going in 6-9 into the last game against the Eagles. Jets, Vikes, Panthers will be really tough games. Dolphins are as much a mess as we are.

I don't think Mara can keep riding Coughlin year to year like this. The roster issues seem to me to be a bigger problem though with depth and lots of dumb or one dimensional players. Reese and Ross might be the ones walking the plank
I see us now getting to seven wins.....  
BillKo : 11/29/2015 7:15 pm : link
and probably everyone coming back.

I'm not so sure how you fire TC. There's not much talent here, and you can't blame him for the injures.

I like how Spags has coached up the D, again, considering what he has to work with.

And I think McAdoo has the right direction for the offense, but again, there needs to be more talent.

That leaves, obviously, Reese. He's has two pretty good drafts.....I'd let him try to finish and get this team back to 10 wins (along with free agency).

I know people don't want to hear it, but I think the regime gets another year.
RE: ...  
Sammo85 : 11/29/2015 7:18 pm : link
In comment 12651197 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
He'll hold his end-of-year press conference...talk tough...appease many fans...others not so much. They'll fire a coach or two. Everyone else will be back. They'll gamble that Reese will significantly upgrade the roster in FA despite the fact that top talent rarely hits the open market and Reese has a so-so history at best of judging the FA market.


It's the depth drafting and roster building that has gone to hell under Reese lately. We've hit big on some talents early but we've continued to ignore or miss on lots of positions. Hes filled some holes in FA with a big name every now or then but his propensity for second tier guys has had to do so because of drafting failures in those areas.
Saddling a GM with a coach..  
Sean : 11/29/2015 7:18 pm : link
is not how you run a successful franchise. Either they both go or stay IMO. You could also argue allowing Reese to name the next HC, but I don't know if he's earned that.
We're in no man's land.  
bceagle05 : 11/29/2015 7:18 pm : link
I'm guessing John Mara isn't gonna fire his brother or Reese, the two most deserving of it. Probably just see it through another offseason. Maybe this is the year we find an NFL tight end or linebacker.
I realistically see washington finishing last 5 games 3-2  
micky : 11/29/2015 7:20 pm : link
split with dallas 9home win), win vs Buffalo, and Philly. Giants i can see going 2-3 wins vs Miami and philly (when it may not matter). 7-9 and losing the div.. Is that enough for change? in a very bad division that was for taking, and this game for somewhat more control?
Probably with another kick in the nuts is my guess.  
Dave in Hoboken : 11/29/2015 7:21 pm : link
Honestly, can't see us beating Carolina or Minnesota; but yeah, any given Sunday, blah, blah, blah.
RE: ...  
shabu : 11/29/2015 7:28 pm : link
In comment 12651197 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
He'll hold his end-of-year press conference...talk tough...appease many fans...others not so much. They'll fire a coach or two. Everyone else will be back. They'll gamble that Reese will significantly upgrade the roster in FA despite the fact that top talent rarely hits the open market and Reese has a so-so history at best of judging the FA market.


That scares the hell out of me the way you put that, but its spot on.
How we fare moving forward  
Big Blue '56 : 11/29/2015 7:34 pm : link
will depend largely on who we get back on the OL
RE: ...  
The_Boss : 11/29/2015 7:37 pm : link
In comment 12651197 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
He'll hold his end-of-year press conference...talk tough...appease many fans...others not so much. They'll fire a coach or two. Everyone else will be back. They'll gamble that Reese will significantly upgrade the roster in FA despite the fact that top talent rarely hits the open market and Reese has a so-so history at best of judging the FA market.


Just like the last 3 years. This team is in trouble. Reese has been overseeing a roster rebuild or retool or transition. Whatever you want to call it, but we're getting younger but not getting any better. 5 year rebuilds are a thing of the past, but in our case, it looks like reality. We have to either replace or resign roughly 26 players next spring. We play the AFC and NFC North next year. Unless we do something we never do and win 4/5 games in this division, chances are we won't be a playoff team next year either.
regardless  
Paulie Walnuts : 11/29/2015 7:44 pm : link
we will be clearing out a lot of deadwood $ this off season
so we cannot beat  
EVERY4YEARS : 11/29/2015 7:51 pm : link
The Jets, Caroina, Philly at home
Miami and Minny on the road???????

If we cant we don't deserve the playoffs

We could have won today despite lackadaisical play

We always STINK after the BYE.....we would lose to the Little Sisters of the Poor after a Coughlin BYE
RE: ...  
Emil : 11/29/2015 8:02 pm : link
In comment 12651197 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
He'll hold his end-of-year press conference...talk tough...appease many fans...others not so much. They'll fire a coach or two. Everyone else will be back. They'll gamble that Reese will significantly upgrade the roster in FA despite the fact that top talent rarely hits the open market and Reese has a so-so history at best of judging the FA market.


I don't disagree with you, I think this is the most likely scenario. Even if the Giants miss the playoffs, they will probably finish 8-8 and (7-9 at worst) and I can see Mara finding a reason to keep TC, MacAdoo and Spags. As I've said before, I'm not opposed to this. If the issues on this team are mostly talent driven I can't hold the coaches more responsible than the GM. And if the GM is here, then Coughlin and company should be here.

I completely understand the pessimism about the ability to upgrade, but 50+ million in unofficially estimated cap space is a heck of a lot to money to spend. Just by shotgun effect alone, the roster should get better. (At least I hope so).

As bad as things seem, I'm just not convinced a dramatic change in direction helps anything, given the talent on the roster.

that projected cap space which sounds a lot  
micky : 11/29/2015 8:07 pm : link
Usually isn't when all said and done come that time. More like a few mil under.
Do we miss Dave Gettleman ?  
bt : 11/29/2015 8:11 pm : link
Look what he has done with Carolina?
RE: so we cannot beat  
The_Boss : 11/29/2015 8:11 pm : link
In comment 12651318 EVERY4YEARS said:
Quote:
The Jets, Caroina, Philly at home
Miami and Minny on the road???????

If we cant we don't deserve the playoffs

We could have won today despite lackadaisical play

We always STINK after the BYE.....we would lose to the Little Sisters of the Poor after a Coughlin BYE


No. They can't win most of those games and now, it's going to take winning most of those games.

No playoffs for us. Again. And, unless we upgrade the talent in a big way next year, I don't see us qualifying then either, especially considering our known opponents.
RE: that projected cap space which sounds a lot  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 11/29/2015 8:14 pm : link
In comment 12651360 micky said:
Quote:
Usually isn't when all said and done come that time. More like a few mil under.


Um...what?
RE: RE: so we cannot beat  
EVERY4YEARS : 11/29/2015 8:32 pm : link
In comment 12651372 The_Boss said:
Quote:
In comment 12651318 EVERY4YEARS said:


Quote:


The Jets, Caroina, Philly at home
Miami and Minny on the road???????

If we cant we don't deserve the playoffs

We could have won today despite lackadaisical play

We always STINK after the BYE.....we would lose to the Little Sisters of the Poor after a Coughlin BYE



No. They can't win most of those games and now, it's going to take winning most of those games.

No playoffs for us. Again. And, unless we upgrade the talent in a big way next year, I don't see us qualifying then either, especially considering our known opponents.


we will see about that....don't let today totally cloud your vision
this is the same team that should have beaten NE
Let's look at what Reese can control  
Daniel in MI : 11/29/2015 8:58 pm : link
he picked up Vereen which was a nice pickup. He drafted Beckham, Richburg, Pugh (aka TRex) and Flowers, all of which look good. Schwartz was coming around and he's gone now. Our 2nd best WR didn't play this year which was a strange surprise (even if he wasn't himself 100%, we all expected him back at some level). Collins has been up and down a bit of late, but I think he's a player at S in the long run. Our best DL blew his hand off. He's not what he was. Hankins got hurt. Reese had no control over any of this. Harris has been a pretty good pickup. If anything, we were too "nice" letting the best FA WR go to GB because we didn't have a starting spot for him with Cruz coming back.

We still don't really have an impact LB, and don't seem committed to drafting any. We are killed constantly by TEs and crossing routes. We stuck with Beason too long. Kennard looks pretty good, but not great. Everyone else is basically just a guy in NFL terms. We lack ANY kind of pass rush. Moore is an enigma, able to get some modicum of pass rush, but too many stupid plays. Rashad is a journeyman at best, he makes few plays any back could make. TE is a weakness (why did we not pay for Black Unicorn!).

Honestly, if we can get the OL back healthy, we're not that far off from being good. On O, another WR (maybe Cruz if he ever makes it back), A TE too. Eli is (say it with me) fine. A more explosive RB would help to compliment Vereen's pass catching. On D, a pass rusher to compliment JPP (depending on what happens with him).and at least 1 good LB who can cover and rush the passer.

No GM will go 100% on FA, if players were that good, they wouldn't be FAs or we can't afford them with so much cap in Eli.

If we can find some of those pieces, we can be good. Reese has hit a good amount, and missed some. We need an Amandola type WR if Cruz won't be back. We need an impact LB. We need a good TE. If we can get those pieces and get some guys healthy, we can compete. Since Pass rushers are only found in the first round, we will once again probably look to FA for a LB, but that's not been very successful to date. TEs can be found out there. We don't need greatness, just a good solid contributor.

We've been in most games despite all the injuries. We're only in year 1 of the Spags system with a lot of guys hurt. I don't think it's as bad as all that. I'm not sure wholesale change is needed. The big ? is when to replace TC, but are we really being out coached? A new HC will replace Spags probably and that means starting a new system on D again. How many things had to go wrong to lose to the Patriots, yet they all did. It's just one of those years...
Gosh I wish we didn't have such an infiltration of idio  
Big Blue '56 : 11/29/2015 9:16 pm : link
dominating this board..I miss posts like Daniel in Mi's cogent one above..

Doesn't matter whether you agree or disagree with his thoughts ( I happen to agree), just give reasons, make your points like he just did. No, instead we get who should be fired, who sucks, etc..So friggin' juvenile and a waste of everyone's time..If Daniel, Joey, dorgan, Mike in Wr, SOTI, RAZE, bw in dc, HBart, etc., would post more, we'd have great exchanges of info going on most of the time..A shame..
idio=idiots  
Big Blue '56 : 11/29/2015 9:17 pm : link
.
RE: Let's look at what Reese can control  
Emil : 11/29/2015 9:18 pm : link
In comment 12651495 Daniel in MI said:
Quote:
he picked up Vereen which was a nice pickup. He drafted Beckham, Richburg, Pugh (aka TRex) and Flowers, all of which look good. Schwartz was coming around and he's gone now. Our 2nd best WR didn't play this year which was a strange surprise (even if he wasn't himself 100%, we all expected him back at some level). Collins has been up and down a bit of late, but I think he's a player at S in the long run. Our best DL blew his hand off. He's not what he was. Hankins got hurt. Reese had no control over any of this. Harris has been a pretty good pickup. If anything, we were too "nice" letting the best FA WR go to GB because we didn't have a starting spot for him with Cruz coming back.

We still don't really have an impact LB, and don't seem committed to drafting any. We are killed constantly by TEs and crossing routes. We stuck with Beason too long. Kennard looks pretty good, but not great. Everyone else is basically just a guy in NFL terms. We lack ANY kind of pass rush. Moore is an enigma, able to get some modicum of pass rush, but too many stupid plays. Rashad is a journeyman at best, he makes few plays any back could make. TE is a weakness (why did we not pay for Black Unicorn!).

Honestly, if we can get the OL back healthy, we're not that far off from being good. On O, another WR (maybe Cruz if he ever makes it back), A TE too. Eli is (say it with me) fine. A more explosive RB would help to compliment Vereen's pass catching. On D, a pass rusher to compliment JPP (depending on what happens with him).and at least 1 good LB who can cover and rush the passer.

No GM will go 100% on FA, if players were that good, they wouldn't be FAs or we can't afford them with so much cap in Eli.

If we can find some of those pieces, we can be good. Reese has hit a good amount, and missed some. We need an Amandola type WR if Cruz won't be back. We need an impact LB. We need a good TE. If we can get those pieces and get some guys healthy, we can compete. Since Pass rushers are only found in the first round, we will once again probably look to FA for a LB, but that's not been very successful to date. TEs can be found out there. We don't need greatness, just a good solid contributor.

We've been in most games despite all the injuries. We're only in year 1 of the Spags system with a lot of guys hurt. I don't think it's as bad as all that. I'm not sure wholesale change is needed. The big ? is when to replace TC, but are we really being out coached? A new HC will replace Spags probably and that means starting a new system on D again. How many things had to go wrong to lose to the Patriots, yet they all did. It's just one of those years...


Well put
RE: Let's look at what Reese can control  
Boy Cord : 11/29/2015 10:32 pm : link
In comment 12651495 Daniel in MI said:
Quote:
he picked up Vereen which was a nice pickup. He drafted Beckham, Richburg, Pugh (aka TRex) and Flowers, all of which look good. Schwartz was coming around and he's gone now. Our 2nd best WR didn't play this year which was a strange surprise (even if he wasn't himself 100%, we all expected him back at some level). Collins has been up and down a bit of late, but I think he's a player at S in the long run. Our best DL blew his hand off. He's not what he was. Hankins got hurt. Reese had no control over any of this. Harris has been a pretty good pickup. If anything, we were too "nice" letting the best FA WR go to GB because we didn't have a starting spot for him with Cruz coming back.

We still don't really have an impact LB, and don't seem committed to drafting any. We are killed constantly by TEs and crossing routes. We stuck with Beason too long. Kennard looks pretty good, but not great. Everyone else is basically just a guy in NFL terms. We lack ANY kind of pass rush. Moore is an enigma, able to get some modicum of pass rush, but too many stupid plays. Rashad is a journeyman at best, he makes few plays any back could make. TE is a weakness (why did we not pay for Black Unicorn!).

Honestly, if we can get the OL back healthy, we're not that far off from being good. On O, another WR (maybe Cruz if he ever makes it back), A TE too. Eli is (say it with me) fine. A more explosive RB would help to compliment Vereen's pass catching. On D, a pass rusher to compliment JPP (depending on what happens with him).and at least 1 good LB who can cover and rush the passer.

No GM will go 100% on FA, if players were that good, they wouldn't be FAs or we can't afford them with so much cap in Eli.

If we can find some of those pieces, we can be good. Reese has hit a good amount, and missed some. We need an Amandola type WR if Cruz won't be back. We need an impact LB. We need a good TE. If we can get those pieces and get some guys healthy, we can compete. Since Pass rushers are only found in the first round, we will once again probably look to FA for a LB, but that's not been very successful to date. TEs can be found out there. We don't need greatness, just a good solid contributor.

We've been in most games despite all the injuries. We're only in year 1 of the Spags system with a lot of guys hurt. I don't think it's as bad as all that. I'm not sure wholesale change is needed. The big ? is when to replace TC, but are we really being out coached? A new HC will replace Spags probably and that means starting a new system on D again. How many things had to go wrong to lose to the Patriots, yet they all did. It's just one of those years...


Pass rushers only found in first round? Strahan, Osi, Tuck?
boy chord  
Daniel in MI : 11/30/2015 1:05 am : link
Good point, but those guys (mostly) needed some time to come around and polish up for the pro game, we need impact yesterday. But you're right, if we can find a pass rusher later than the first, wouldn't it be nice to pick a true impact LB in the first? But that seems to go against our value chart for some reason. I guess the last 2 GMS don't see 4-3 LBs as first round necessities.
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