at the beginning or in the middle of the season. Now Kobe can enjoy the love-fest and appreciation tour. Because when they aren't that good any longer, they need to find a way to bring the attention back to themselves. Good lord.
at the beginning or in the middle of the season. Now Kobe can enjoy the love-fest and appreciation tour. Because when they aren't that good any longer, they need to find a way to bring the attention back to themselves. Good lord.
well he deserves it.
very few do... hes one of them. all time great.
Is that supposed to be a letter or free verse poetry?
....unfortunately, really hurt the Lakers with his insistence on a big salary. His hamstringing the franchise over last three, four years tarnishes the legacy of quite a bit. That and he's not liked by many is not going to make this a Jabbar like farewell tour.
he did miss 2 years with injury, it's not easy to come back at the highest level, especially with all that milage he racked up over the last 2 decades. I respect him for trying to give it a go, but he should have read the tea leaves and let the team rebuild.
....unfortunately, really hurt the Lakers with his insistence on a big salary. His hamstringing the franchise over last three, four years tarnishes the legacy of quite a bit. That and he's not liked by many is not going to make this a Jabbar like farewell tour.
First of all, it's not like Kareem was universally loved...
I'm not a fan of Kobe's, but he didn't hamstring anyone. No one put a gun to Mitch Kupchak's head. Extending Kobe, even at that ridiculous salary, served both parties. Kobe got paid, and the Laker's had a built-in attendance draw to help ease the rebuild that they knew they needed. Who didn't they sign due to Kobe's salary?
....unfortunately, really hurt the Lakers with his insistence on a big salary. His hamstringing the franchise over last three, four years tarnishes the legacy of quite a bit. That and he's not liked by many is not going to make this a Jabbar like farewell tour.
Do you realize how much of an asshole Jordan was?
first he made the Bulls give him a 1 year max contract every year until he retired...He threatened to sign with the Knicks to get this deal..
In the olympics he played Kukoc so hard because he didnt want him to come over and play for the Bulls becaus ehe didnt want to add anyone to their team...so he played physical defense on him to try and make him think twice about coming over..
So Mitch insulted the Lakers fan base, which would have bought into a rebuild. He was as guilty. As were the Buss family.
Sorry, but showing an indication he needed help to get back to the top would have helped attract talent. And paying Kobe a 'max' salary is still obviously poor use of resources that can be used elsewhere.
Kareem was not universally liked. But Kareem was respected(not considered the 'jerk' or 'ball hog' Kobe often is), and his deferment to Magic showed some hubris. Kobe has not endeared himself to many.
And unlike Jordan, he is far from going out on top. Also, keep in mind with Jordan, the public was really not exposed to the class A asshole he is until after his retirement.
This 'farewell tour' is not going to go particularly well. He will get some applauses, along with boos.
When he left for baseball? Left the Bulls for good? Or when he retired as a Wizard? Because if it's the last one, where he actually did retire, he did anything but leave on top.
....unfortunately, really hurt the Lakers with his insistence on a big salary. His hamstringing the franchise over last three, four years tarnishes the legacy of quite a bit. That and he's not liked by many is not going to make this a Jabbar like farewell tour.
4 years ago he was fantastic, and the advanced stats back that up. 3 years ago he blew out his tendon in game 6. Do you really want to blame him for taking a high salary off a great year and then blowing a tendon? So it's really the last 2 years, and last season he didnt have a good sense ex ante that he wouldnt be very good since he was coming back from injury and had previously been super.
Moreover, his 'insistence' on a high salary is a weird place to put them blame. The Lakers didnt have to pay it. Saying his salary held the Lakers back is probably a counterfactual that presumes with no basis that worthwhile UFAs were going to sign there and that Kobe's salary somehow prevented that -- both I think are wrong. Fact is that there is more UFA money in the NBA than there are worthy UFAs. Lakers had enough money to sign Aldridge this offseason, but he went elsewhere (taking him at his word, because of management's pitch). 2 offseasons ago the big UFAs were LeBron and Melo. LeBron was probably only considering 2 teams, and LA could have afforded Melo.
Management probably lied to the fan base a bit. But IMO overpaying Kobe for the last 1-2 seasons probably hasnt held the team back long term at all. It may have even saved the team from passing out long term deals that wouldnt move the needle much.
Regarding Kobe, I have gone back and forth during his career of hating him for being a prick and admiring his work ethic and competitive determination.
Either way, he was an all-time great NBA player and I thought handled well the Jordan shadow cast over him his entire career. Each generation of superstar has to deal with a new and heightened sense of scrutiny from the media and the general public. Jordan never had to deal with the type of 24/7 coverage and paparazzi and social media that Kobe did, and LeBron has had it even worse as his entire career was during the age of social media and smartphones with cameras.
I'm referring to the comment about Jordan referenced by nygiants16, in his final years with the Bulls. Jordan's wizard act was a farce and he should not have bothered. Wizards are a sorry franchise so they were happy to sell tickets and accept any demand from him.
I'm referring to the comment about Jordan referenced by nygiants16, in his final years with the Bulls. Jordan's wizard act was a farce and he should not have bothered. Wizards are a sorry franchise so they were happy to sell tickets and accept any demand from him.
You do realize that Jordan was 34 when he retired with the Bulls....
When Kobe was 33 and 34 he was playing for championships also....
I'm referring to the comment about Jordan referenced by nygiants16, in his final years with the Bulls. Jordan's wizard act was a farce and he should not have bothered. Wizards are a sorry franchise so they were happy to sell tickets and accept any demand from him.
Jordan was a good player for the Wizards. Not MJ of old but still a 20 PER player. At 40. As a SG. It was anything but a farce.
Did you not read the article ESPN wrote two years ago regarding Kobe. Laker plan was to stick talent around him for a final run. He was considered radioactive and still too prominent in Laker plans to all those suited by brass including significant free agents that year.
At the time of the signing people in LA questioned if contract was worthwhile. Hindsight is obviously harsher on the contract but it's hardly ridiculous to question signing an aging player (whose per efficiency ratings were very good in 2010 but not in the seasons following playoff exists).
Juergen Klinsmann did the very same thing calling him out.
Jordan had no hope of contributing to his championship rings and did not advance anything but ticket sales for the Wizards. He had a fairytale ending and should have ended it there.
So tell me who the free agents who were going to sign in LA were. Kobe leave 2 offseasons ago, who do they get? Because the biggest fiction right now in the NBA is that cap space is some magic team fixer.
Jordan had no hope of contributing to his championship rings and did not advance anything but ticket sales for the Wizards. He had a fairytale ending and should have ended it there.
So any good player playing on a team that does not win a ring is involved in a farce? I'm not following. He loves basketball and was still a good player. I'm not seeing the negative.
Kobe should not have left. He should have been willing to accept other talented players around him and toned his alpha dog ways down a bit. Accepting a restructured friendlier contract certainly could have helped(and that is as much on management as it is on him). He was coming off injury and aging. Look at the list of free agents that were signed over the last few seasons.
I think the article puts too much on him and not enough on Laker management.
But to my simple point, his perception is not very high. Many laker fans feel he hurt their rebuild efforts and stuck around too long (management should be taken to task--quite frankly they should have given him a one year max salary especially given his injury at the end of 2012 and negotiated with him annually after that). That, and he is easily the most selfish/least efficient of the great players--his shooting percentage is a big indicator of this--will lead to a farewell tour that is not going to be a lovefest.
Im stating my opinion. Jordan has every right to continue to play-and did play untill he was into his late 30s (early 40s?). No serious team would have signed him because of the lack of a future in such an arrangement. Only the Wizards, desperate to sell tickets.
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
your narrative about Kobe and the money presumes that if he took less money, other big stars would have gone there. I think it is fantasy. They had the money to sign big names. The big names want to go to the teams that are already contenders, or they want to stay put. Kobe's money was unlikely to help. It's just too easy to say Kobe makes a lot, the Lakers suck and therefore the Lakers suck because Kobe makes a lot. Given how free agency has panned out recently, I think it would be a wrong conclusion.
If he was less of a dick would Howard have resigned there? Possibly. Im not sure you want Dwight Howard as your best player; but in any event he and Kobe were never a good fit ue to personality issues. If Kobe was 25, I think the free agents would flock there. Kobe won the rings because he is an obsessive weirdo, so to pretend like the obsessiveness on its own is a net negative is unfair IMO.
Im stating my opinion. Jordan has every right to continue to play-and did play untill he was into his late 30s (early 40s?). No serious team would have signed him because of the lack of a future in such an arrangement. Only the Wizards, desperate to sell tickets.
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
That makes no sense. Teams sign 20 PER players all the time even if they're not in championship contention and even if that player only has a few years left.
You act like MJ was bad then. He wasn't, he was a legit borderline all star caliber player.
Kobe's attitude was the biggest drawback. Free agents would go sign with Kobe at 25 with that attitude-not at 35.
If anything, the big deal represents more than the money. It also represents his continued overemphasized importance to the Lakers. Probably the best way for me to have phrased the original post in question.
Forget Howard-they were a bad fit. What about Carmelo or others who could have easily gone to LA? did not play or come from (or even go to) a winning situation?
given his career, 20 per is nothing for Jordan. In my opinion, he had it perfect in 98 when he quit. Of course he can feel free to continue.
Was he still a good basketball player? Yes.
Jordan was brought up in reference to Kobe, nygiant16 mentioned Jordan's behavior in a means to justify Kobe's salary and place on the Lakers.
Its a flawed comparision. NBA is very different today, Jordan was playing at a peerless level with the Bulls (Kobe was with plenty of peers when he signed last deal with Lakers), Laker window was already closing with an ultracompetitive Western Conferece etc. etc.
Im stating my opinion. Jordan has every right to continue to play-and did play untill he was into his late 30s (early 40s?). No serious team would have signed him because of the lack of a future in such an arrangement. Only the Wizards, desperate to sell tickets.
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
As a 39 year old Jordan averaged 20 points on 45% shooting from the wing, 6.1 rebs, 3.8 assists, 1.5 seals, 2.1 TOs. That would have helped a lot of teams. He signed with the Wizards for $1 million because the cut him into management. A ton of teams would have given him $1 million.
Robinson rode off into the sunset playing sheltered minutes next to the best PF I've ever seen. With a hall of fame coach and a 20 year old Parker and a 25 year old Manu. That's not a retirement plan -- it is dumb luck. Similarly Jabbar stuck around in a platoon on a Finals team that had maybe the best PG ever and a bunch of other pieces better than him. Dumb luck again.
but that falls squarely on the ownership. An owner with a heavy hand would have talked Kobe into taking less. The last 3 seasons have been directionless under Fredo Buss' guidance.
about Jordan's behavior wa in reference to how much of an asshole he was...
My comment about Jordan basically telling the Bulls that he wanted a bunch of 1 year max deals wa my reference to Kobe taking a max deal when he did...
Forget Howard-they were a bad fit. What about Carmelo or others who could have easily gone to LA? did not play or come from (or even go to) a winning situation?
Carmelo considered going. But he stuck around in NY for more money and because he really wanted to win in NY. He stuck around here fore a rebuild.
Who else? If not Carmelo, who was the UFA that Kobe cost? That's my real problem with the Kobe's contract is hurting the Lakers theory. It presumes that the next Shaq was just around the corner. But that's not how UFA is working right now. Players are going into situations with a championship core in place.
I know you are a lawyer, which comes for a penchant for debate (one I share btw), and we obviously got into it on another topic on another thread. You are arguing issues tangental to the original premise. Its not important to the original thread, its millering it up quite frankly.
Kobe Bryant should have helped a franchise out that has paid him a ridiculous sum of money. Ought. Not must. He did not on multiple levels. His ego much more than his greed hurt him in his final act and the Lakers as well. My opinion. An opinion shared by many.
David, the Lakers are in disarray and Fredo gets a lot of blame, Jeanie Buss should share in it as well.
Jeanie handles the business side of the Lakers operation
Jim is much more directly involved with the on court product. I do agree that Kobe hamstrung the team's rebuild, not all athletes age gracefully. I liken it to a superhero losing his abilities all of a sudden, coming to grips with that is not an easy thing to do, especially when you're accustomed to being the best for such a long time.
He would somehow transform this thread into proof the NBA has better athletes, better diversity (and quality humans), and higher ratings and popularity than other sports.
I know you are a lawyer, which comes for a penchant for debate (one I share btw), and we obviously got into it on another topic on another thread. You are arguing issues tangental to the original premise. Its not important to the original thread, its millering it up quite frankly.
Kobe Bryant should have helped a franchise out that has paid him a ridiculous sum of money. Ought. Not must. He did not on multiple levels. His ego much more than his greed hurt him in his final act and the Lakers as well. My opinion. An opinion shared by many.
David, the Lakers are in disarray and Fredo gets a lot of blame, Jeanie Buss should share in it as well.
So you made a point about Kobe hurting the Lakers for 3-4 seasons by taking a lot of money. I point out that the first of those 4 years he was fantastic, the 2nd he got hurt, and so you're 3-4 is really 2 at most. Moreover, when you look past the hypothetical "cap space" arguments and really think about what they could have done with that money in the interim, the answer is very likely nothing. Carmelo is the name you drop, but that was only ever to come play with Kobe and he decided to stick around in NY for his own reasons (non-winning reasons). And then you say we're millering up the Kobe thread, when this is actually pretty core to the discussion of him retiring. And then you throw in my occupation for no reason.
What a very silly post. I guess anything to not concede that your original premise had flaws.
2011's free agency class was headlined by Marc Gasol (RFA so wasnt going anywhere), Nene and Tyson Chandler. Championship moves y'all.
2012's top free agents were Deron, Eric Gordon, Duncan, KG, Hibbert, and Nash. Lakers ended up getting the last two. I dont see a championship core in there.
2013's top free agents were Dwight and CP3. Then Iguodala and Josh Smith. Maybe you can convince yourself that the Lakers could have signed CP3 and retained Dwight. I cant, and I dont think they get far with that combo.
I dont think Kobe has done anything to get the Lakers closer to a championship in the last 4 or so years. But has he actively hurt them? The only plausible argument to me is that he improved their draft position by playing, except they had the #2 pick last year and the #6 pick the year before.
Teams cycle in and out of contention. Throwing a hissy fit because your team is spinning its wheels for 2 extra years after a decade+ of contention (including lots of titles) I think is shortsighted.
RE: Some will definitely appreciate this Deadspin/Magary article
The millering up is the debating finer points about Jordan. Not really all that applicable an example here. And a tangent. I'm guilty as well of feeding that.
Anyhow, he has certainly hurt his team this year and last year. Hero ball. Bad shot selection. Inhibiting player development. Not just about star free agent signings. Probably 2013-14 campaign as well, honestly id have to look. My original spirit of premise stands to me, we can argue the number of years and the finer points. Sure I may be incorrect in how long he has been an issue.
His belief in his superman status, and his unattractiveness in free agency had an impact.
In fact, announcing the retirement now? Ridiculous. Makes this a lame duck year for a lot of players and the coach. If Lakers are smart, play him 15 a game and move on.
Deadspin is right-he should just quit now. So was dep earlier.
The deadspin article is excellent in capturing a sentiment people have towards him. About this farewell tour. Seems like the contract was an extended farewell thank you gesture to be honest.
but how much more could have been done if Kobe had hung it up this offseason instead of now? Starting lineups, even coaching decisions were impacted by the late announcement.
So I did some research as something was not sitting well with me
in 2013-2014 Kobe Bryant played in 6 total games and averaged 13.2 points in those games. He was seriously hurt late in 2012-2013 after a massive season. But he had a seriously bad injury to end the year.
Before he stepped on the court that season, in november 2013, the team signed him to a two year, 45+ million dollar contract extension. At advanced age. After an awful injury that he should have rested the entire 13-14 season. Read the article and weep if you are a Laker fan. In fact, NBA rules prevented a player over 36 from a longer extension. Yikes. Who knows what the term would have looked like otherwise.
So his per rating has been a 10.7 (over 6 games) in 13-14, 17.6 in 14-15, and this year, a 9.9.
Arguably the worst contract extension (other than the Isiah Knick deals-- he paid stiffs like Jerome James)-- in NBA history.
One of the reasons cited for the contract extension by Laker brass was the ability to draw a top free agent as well as building a supporting cast. Carmelo and Lebron were cited. As Nash and Kobe were the only players under contract as LA geared up for a complete overhaul that offseason. That clearly did not go to plan.
in my honest opinion. He is 21st overall all time in per. The list of guys ahead of him have a legitimate claim to being better players or at least on his tier. So a top 20 player all time is probably fair.
Here is a link to an article that describes the conundrum the extension put the Lakers in:
That's always been a flaw of his. And it bit the team hard at the very end of his career in terms of contracts. It also says A LOT about what kind of ego that Kobe has that his FGA per possession this season matches his career total. That is an absolutely pathetic statistic, I don't care how bad the Lakers are. There is no reason for Kobe to be chucking as much as he is.
If Kobe wanted to, I see no reason why he can't make a Paul Pierce like impact in a more limited offensive role. But it would be a joke for him to play in such a manner while getting paid so much money.
I'm a Yanks fan and I do see some parallels with Jeter. Just the way the two of them got hurt and struggled to return. The way they're both going to have a farewell tour. I do think the salary involved makes a big difference but Jeter and Kobe might not be as far apart as you'd think. And as a big Jeter fan and kinda Kobe hater, it does feel weird.
But for all his ego issues, what we've always liked about Kobe is that he had a similar mindset to Jordan. That's what we sometimes kill LeBron for. But that mindset has its downsides too as we saw with Wizards MJ.
Kobe is a legend though. Scariest scorer in league history when he got hot. It's just awesome watching prime Kobe. His monster scoring games were special. And he was an absolute winner, doing it with 2 different rosters. His clutch aura might be a little overrated the same way LeBrons is underrated, but he still had plenty of cold blooded moments. Great player.
Wizards MJ was better than this, speaks to his greatness and the two vacations he took. But that "I'll forever be the alpha" mindset from MJ hurt those Wiz teams. That's why Tim Duncan is awesome, team above all else.
Id agree with both your last posts 100%. MJ on the Wizards was still 'technically' a good player, far superior to Kobe. But the alpha dog mentality was not helpful. And I really dont see what he accomplished by returning. I guess he thought he could win another title (sure of it actually).
Tim Duncan is probably viewed as inferior to Kobe by many. Too many. Duncan is the better player. His playoff stat lines in the first half of his career are also just absurd.
as good a player as Jeter was, I could not stand his farewell tour nonsense in 2014. Ugly.
To Kobe's credit, he apparently has rejected this style of going away-- he wants no gifts or cheese sentiment. Good call, he was not going to get much love in many stadiums quite frankly.
The Lakers were most realistically going to waste money on salaries that would not have panned out to a championship contender.
With this announcement though, they can begin the rebuild unencumbered by obligation. No need to tank a la Philly, feature clarkson and Randle and get some more talented help. They can sign some guys too and the rebuild I think won't be very long--Quality free agents will want the chance to play there and shine with the void Kobe will leave.
Wizards MJ was better than this, speaks to his greatness and the two vacations he took. But that "I'll forever be the alpha" mindset from MJ hurt those Wiz teams. That's why Tim Duncan is awesome, team above all else.
Disagree. Which player should have gotten more touches to make the Wizards better?
he's hanging it up cause it 'just isn't fun anymore.' Has nothing to do with the fact that he's a terrible player and still by all accounts an awful teammate in spite of his eroding skill set
its completely in line with his selfishness. Im going to go out there and shoot the ball a bunch because its the only way I know. When that is no longer 'fun' Im going to quit. Forget about adapting. Forget about my teammates or coaches. Or the team that has paid me 2/3rds of a billion dollars.
He makes statements that the Lakers should not make compromises longterm to keep the team competitive, that they should do the best thing for themselves longterm. They he runs out and shoots the ball like its 2005.
Honestly, if he was even having a half decent season, he would explore going to another team to see if he could get a sixth ring next year. Convinced of it. His statements basically implied that this offseason. The whole retire a Laker theme ends up the result but it rang hollow.
I love in how he makes it sound like
Ned In Atlanta : 8:09 am : link : reply
he's hanging it up cause it 'just isn't fun anymore.' Has nothing to do with the fact that he's a terrible player and still by all accounts an awful teammate in spite of his eroding skill set
Yep. His ego just won't let him admit it.
Wait.
Quote:
"I freaking suck."
Quote from Kobe Bryant way, way back to November of 2015
Shitty teammate Kobe has been a myth since the days of Smush Parker. Being an asshole to Dwight Howard or any player like him that refuses to practice or run called plays doesn't count. The hero ball from age 25 Kobe still exists and shouldn't. The 25-year-old teammate treatment hasn't been around for a long time but those on the outside still run with it.
Kobe's clutchness is overrated, like his defense was in the second half of his career. He also wasn't nearly as efficient offensively as the other greats that are around him in the top 10~20. He was, howevah, the most dangerous offensive threat to ever take the court when he was on and in his prime he was on a fuckin' lot and sports fans are the worst when it comes to downplaying how great a player was once they hang on too long.
hassan : 8:19 am : link : reply
Honestly, if he was even having a half decent season, he would explore going to another team to see if he could get a sixth ring next year. Convinced of it.
He was insincere when he sat there and talked about this being a retirement contract and wanting to finish with the Lakers. It was part of the press release the Lakers made. He then made comments this summer suggesting he might test free agency this offseason.
All part of why his last act is not viewed favorably.
At least implicitly by management was Kobe would wrap it up in LA. I know you've made your points about his stellar 2012-13 campaign (at 23.0 PER, also bickering with Howard and others on that team). He tore an Achilles at 36 in the final few games that year. Then management signed the extension prior to his suiting up in 13-14. He came back sometime around mid season and reinsured himself after six games. So yes the extension was a gross overpayment-Lakers were playing a PR game obviously. Part of that was to not let him walk and go play elsewhere. In my mind, obviously it's a free country.
He's a top 20 player. One can see the conundrum of Bryant. His farewell logo is a hero and villain duality theme for god sakes. That's got to be a first for a farewell tour. Critiques don't take away from his overall importance. But in my mind he is also simultaneously overrated.
He will be viewed better with history and passing of time. He's catching flak for his less than like able personality and his tiresome final act.
Regarding your comments about his viability as a teammate and his treatment within the locker room. Read the article I posted written by Abbott. I know Lakers fans hate that article but it's far from myth this player is being coddled. His coach has rolled out a red carpet for him this season and defended his irresponsible play.
Disagree. Which player should have gotten more touches to make the Wizards better?
Jordan averaged a 31.7 USG% on a .480 TS% during his final 2 seasons with the Wizards.
AI -- Kobe -- T-Mac -- Old Ass MJ -- Pierce -- Shaq
Those were the Top 6 in USG% during those two seasons. MJ should not have been as involved in the offense as he was with the Wiz. He was strong in the mid-range but his lack of 3pt range and quickness limited his efficiency, which was pretty damn bad at .480 TS% (Antoine "Epitome of Chucker" Walker was at a .479 TS% over these 2 years for perspective).
you are mixing two different arguments, I believe. I don't think you could find a person on the planet who would say that Kobe isn't being coddled by the team or the town. Unless you are trying to say that he is the only superstar an organization bends for.
Being coddled, given special treatment, having a coach who has a hard on for you, that has nothing to do with the ignored fact of how Kobe treats his teammates now compared to his younger years.
Hating on Kobe has always been popular, and there will always be an opportunity to get a soundbite out of a former teammate who had issues with a player like him. It has been clear for more then a decade now that Kobe isn't a guy you want on your team if you a) don't want to put in the work, or b) are a bitch (Howard). There is a common trend with the players who speak up with problems once they are out of town. There was definitely a time where he expected every player to work as hard as he did and that is flat out unfair.
My problem with articles like that is it's always either a quote from a source, an executive from another team that we can't name, or hey look at this example from 12 years ago (Abbott did this), or lets keep going to Smush Fargin' Parker so we can write another story.
Kobe is probably the most loved hated player of our time and this will always be a discussion to have, but articles like that just won't do it for me. To start, being from a writer who years ago had a website solely dedicated to pointing out how much he skews stats and ignores other stats that may be inconvenient in order to write yet another biased article about Kobe doesn't help.
at least Simmons could openly admit his Kobe/Lakers hatred because of his love for the Celtics. Abbott if I recall is a huge Blazers fan and writes like one.
Kobe clearly said his body has nothing to give to the game anymore
so yes, if he did have anything left, he'd still be open to playing more. Most hoops fans know Kobe's always been a prickly, stubborn teammate. Let's not discuss this like it's not something people are already aware of. You take the good with the bad, and the net sum is a player that was a cornerstone piece for two Laker dynasties. Let's not shovel dirt on a guy when he's already down. One of my favorite Kobe memories was how he was the first superstar to lead the charge about playing in the Olympics after we got embarrassed in international play. He helped restore the luster of US Basketball, I'm not sure we would have seen the marquee names playing without him stepping up and being vocal about it. Mamba might not be my favorite Laker (Magic will always be #1 to me), but he's undeniable.
that Kobe is turning away free agents is disputed by Kevin Durant (see link). The league is full of Kobe fan-boys like KD. He was the great guard of the era, and everyone loves guards (and a shocking number of NBAers grew up as fans of players much more than teams). The best of the best guys get to know eachother during Team USA practices and you always hear about Kobe's work ethic making a huge impression when he participates. Link - ( New Window )
I think your post is very fair. And accurate. So I should be specific. Kobe is being coddled. His demands were unreasonable for teammates, he was tough on them. But inherently not much wrong with that. I have no beef with his behavior while an elite player demanding more from teammates.
Regarding his last several years, my issue is he has not evolved from this position. Dwight and Kobe have completely different personalities. So that was not going to work. And to be fair, Dwight should have taken guidance from him and worked to toughen his skin. He did not.
But his current selfishness and inability to take a different role--to me, he is not treating teammates well. If anything, I have no problem with his 'selfishness' when he was not with Shaq or Pau in the middle of the aughts--he justified it with great play and voluminous scoring. When he had legitimate complimentary stars, they were involved. He was a great competitor. No doubt.
The Abbott article can be taken with a grain of salt. The context you shared I did not know so thanks.
If you mean from the angle of winning basketball, his play is crap as a teammate right now. So if that's the case, I agree with you. The coach only makes it worse by seemingly saying he wouldn't change a thing with the way Kobe is chucking.
I can only assume (hope?) that he is trying to shoot his way out of a funk, but uhh........ well, I got nothing. This year is rough and not the way I wanted him to go out.
fair points as well. You take the good with the bad.
I discussed this with a friend who is a big Laker fan. He did mention he agrees Jeanie was as complicit as Jim in the extension as part of the way Lakers did business--the TV deal they have and the appeal of ratings certainly entered the discussion. Hes otherwise echoed all your sentiments--he busted his butt so hard working it was easy to look past the Shaq feud and other items casual/non Laker fans held onto.
None of us will probably ever know how it really went down,
but if it means anything at all, a number of local writers in LA have mentioned that the ridiculous extension was Jeanie's idea and that there really was no negotiation.
If true, well that was dumb. No one expected Kobe to take a Duncan cut or even cut his figure in half but you don't have to go in to the talks with that figure right out the gate!
If false, that brings us back to the coddled player. Management taking the heat for a player who makes them a ton of money. One thing Jeanie has made clear over the years, she loves her some Kobe and would sign him again following this season if needed.
It would be fair to have a current Kobe debate. But they're not. Indeed, because of a trade, the Lakers need to get a top 3 pick or else they lose that pick entirely. Long term the very best thing for a lot of these kids they have is probably to (1) see how Kobe works/prepares, and (2) lose and have a chance to be teammates with Simmons, Labissiere, or some other elite prospect, maybe get Scott fired, and then not have a 2017 #1 at all to relieve any pressure from above to tank. It's also probably really helpful that Kobe is drawing attention away from Russell as he is somewhat struggling to adapt to the NBA very early in his career.
So in a sick way Kobe might be the perfect guy for LA right now.
since you are Laker fans. What is your thoughts about the team embracing a different direction philosophy wise? A franchise that has historically acquired players via trade or free agency, that strategy will have limited effectiveness in today's and tomorrow's NBA.
Can this ownership group deemphasize the 'hollywood' treatment, and start using analyitcs, a strong draft, and less of a star powered approach to win? Will this retirement announcement usher in a change in direction and philosophy? Id treat this as a big opportunity if Im Jeanie and Jim Buss.
if they are losing developing young players, its all good. Some level of 'tanking' is required in NBA. If they are losing because of a Kobe chuckfest the younger players are learning nothing and they are not building on anything.
He needs to be deemphasized and his minutes limited. Quite frankly he will break anyway if he continues to play a lot of minutes.
if they are losing developing young players, its all good. Some level of 'tanking' is required in NBA. If they are losing because of a Kobe chuckfest the younger players are learning nothing and they are not building on anything.
Meh. Losing is losing. I'll take losing with exposure to Kobe's A+ approach to prep over Russell chucking the losing off balance jumper instead of Kobe. Why arent you complaining about 29 year old Lou Williams (he of the 3 year contract) playing 25 minutes and shooting 35%? Or Swaggy getting 20 minutes at age 30, shooting 41%? Or Meta at 18 minutes shooting 35%?
Seems to me you just have a bug up your ass about Kobe. You're not the only one, but I think when you look at who else is playing in LA, and what else LA could have done, the Kobe criticism is mostly misplaced. And that's not taking anything away from the fact that he's been really, really bad.
the change in philosophy of how to build a team can definitely work and I think is the right call. The problem comes from knowing you are going in to a rebuild (even if they couldn't openly admit that to the fans) and hiring a coach who doesn't see the importance of analytics or experience for young talent.
Being an exciting team can start from the coach and the Lakers need to start there.
If this season is a full blown mess and they do score that draft pick, this is still the Lakers and still LA so I think a team of Russell, Randle, Clarkson, #1~3 draft pick and a ton of cap space would be a hot job to have and management could pick from the list of available/college coaches. I've lost trust on them making the right call.
The other players I was unaware of. They are role and bench players, some playing too much and none efficiently. Scott is coaching disgracefully. That's clear.
I'd argue developing a new core is important and losing is not just losing. Rebuild losing is different than ego losing in this case.
The other players I was unaware of. They are role and bench players, some playing too much and none efficiently. Scott is coaching disgracefully. That's clear.
I'd argue developing a new core is important and losing is not just losing. Rebuild losing is different than ego losing in this case.
If you were unaware of the 65 minutes and 27 FGA those 3 are averaging then you really shouldnt be rendering opinions on whether Kobe is hurting the Lakers by preventing the kids from running the show. Nor have you given a plausible story for which UFAs the Lakers would have been able to sign that would have made things materially better.
The observation that the Lakers suck and Kobe sucks and is expensive, and therefore Kobe is the reason the Lakers suck I think doesnt hold up to much scrutiny.
the change in philosophy of how to build a team can definitely work and I think is the right call. The problem comes from knowing you are going in to a rebuild (even if they couldn't openly admit that to the fans) and hiring a coach who doesn't see the importance of analytics or experience for young talent.
Being an exciting team can start from the coach and the Lakers need to start there.
If this season is a full blown mess and they do score that draft pick, this is still the Lakers and still LA so I think a team of Russell, Randle, Clarkson, #1~3 draft pick and a ton of cap space would be a hot job to have and management could pick from the list of available/college coaches. I've lost trust on them making the right call.
Your 3 kids are all in the 27-31 minute range. Im not following game by game, but how many more minutes do you expect them to get? Russell is a rookie who has really struggled, and Randle is effectively a rookie. Scott seems terrible, but it's not like these kids are stapled to the bench, and it's also early in the season.
Longer term I think you're right. The 3 kids you have plus a 4/5 at the top of this draft makes you a destination for UFAs in a few years. Not automatically unless two guys team up, since most stud UFAs want to win. The UFA quality is also very poor this offseson, and I think guys like Durant and Horford will take 1+1 deals to get back on the market the next offseason. I could see Batum being the top non-old UFA to switch teams (Conley, DeRozen also in the running).
so i need to know the stat line of the rest of the players intimately to render an opinion on Kobe? What muck. Seriously, screw off.
Earlier, You justified an exorbitant contract extension for Kobe based on incorrect facts. that he got hurt 6 games into a season after signing a lucrative extension. You seemed to justify the extension given his stellar play.
Except, you had the facts wrong. He signed such contract extension after getting seriously hurt during 2012-13. His 13-14 campaign he received the extension, with front office knowing about his torn achilles and before he even recovered and stepped on the floor, they had signed him up to a max contract. David in LA and GiantFilthy have called it a ridiculous contract.
All the players you mentioned, btw, have a better PER Rating than Kobe. None are coddled superstars either.
Perhaps you are the one with no basis in forming any opinion. Just go away.
Great argument. Point out a little error in a post that doesnt change the point at all (actually it justifies the tendon season contract even more; he could have forced a longer deal coming off a 57 win 24 PER season in 2010/11).
While ignoring the bigger problem that your thesis that the cap money could have been used elsewhere ignores the fact that there has been shit available on UFA for years, and the star players who WERE moving were not looking to go to rebuilding teams.
So I admit my niggling error (I actually knew he was on year 2 of a 2 year deal, but I'll eat my typo as a mistake). You tell me -- who would the Lakers have signed in the interim if Kobe retired? Specific stars, with a rationale please. When you look at 2014 when he resigned. LeBron? Melo was interested in playing WITH Kobe per reports. Bosh & Wade? Dirk? Bledsoe? Duncan? Lowry? Parsons? Stephenson? Because this all doubles back into my point that you wont engage on -- cap space for bad teams to use in UFA is grossly overrated. Knicks found out this year, when all their targets (Gasol, Aldridge, Monroe, Jordan) were pretty meh on NY's money.
Or you could just tell me to go away. Like a baby.
After asserting that I have no basis for critiquing Kobe because I dont know Nick Young and Lou Williams stat lines you mention a 'small error' in discussing Kobe's
contract extension. Except its a massive nuance.....the extension in 2013-14 was AFTER the knowledge of the shredded achilles. Seems pretty large in discussing the contract extension justification. I did not want to take it there. You did with your ridiculous post.
Regarding free agent signings, there are any number of free agents or trade prospects that may have wanted to play with Kobe had he shown more hubris and the cap situation and team situation was different. The Lakers were planning on it. It did not even need to be Lebron or Wade. Bosh? Kevin Love? Carmelo may have decided differently. Could Harden have been sent to LA (has an LA connection). We cannot say for sure. And is it a given Lebron could not be swayed? Probably not, but we dont know for sure.
Kobe's hubris in taking a big contract maybe cost them LeBron. Or maybe they could have traded their no assets for Harden. Or Melo would have gone to play in LA, which could have afforded him, but he didnt want to go because of how much Kobe got paid. Or because Kobe is a dick, even though Melo said of whether he passed up LA because of Kobe:
Quote:
"Hell no. Of course not," Anthony said. "If I thought that [playing for the Lakers] was the right situation for me from an overall perspective as far as having a team there, then I would have looked at that situation more in-depth. I just felt more comfortable staying here in New York. But as far as playing with him ... I'm here now but I would always love to play with Kobe."
We're going to disagree here. You seem to think that most players didnt want to play with Kobe because Kobe is a dick. But as far as I can tell, lots of players viewed Kobe as a draw, not a detriment, re his attitude and pedigree. You say if Kobe had taken less then they could/would have signed a bunch of guys. Except they've had money for a second max player forever. They absolutely could have afforded Melo (and sought to max him). The could have maxed Aldridge too, and offered. (Love resigned before shopping himself, but maybe that is Kobe's fault too?). And that's a huge hole in your Kobe is hurting the Lakers theory. Your theory would have to be that Melo/LeBron/Love refused to sign in LA over money, even though they could be maxed out, but because they though Kobe should make a lot less and the money should be invested elsewhere. Strikes me as fantasy. There is certainly no evidence of anyone suggesting it.
It's funny, I just re-read this thread and you've gotten almost no one to agree with you on anything. I dont know why it is so hard for you to concede that maybe the Lakers were screwed either way, or that the Kobe is hurting the kids theory (which I dont 100% disagree with!) is at best more of a "Scott is giving 120+ minutes to Kobe, Hibbert, Swaggy, Williams, and MWP even though the team sucks and they have no future" theory. Because it seems really clear that you put out your opinion and then refuse to listen to any competing point of view. Maybe you should start a blog instead of posting on a message board.
Really, that's interesting. David in la agreed Kobe hamstrung their rebuild. After a clarification giant filthy not only agreed with me about my point with Kobe circa 2015. He agreed about my general point about rebuild philosophy. And regarding the stupid Jordan comparison, osi oy cited stats regarding Jordan's wizard campaign. So implicit and explicit agreement.
Regarding my implied stubbornness, In fact, you must have missed my post where I credit you for pointing out that a free agency signing(s) may have been counterproductive. I don't hold my views sancrosant. You made good points.
But in fact your latest post is your most ridiculous one. I'll break it down for you when I get done. Blog? I'm full of concessions to other opinions here. Must be a case of projection. I actually asked questions of two folks on the thread. Must be that selective reading.
the Lakers should have two superstars that joined the team in free agent classes in recent years. Thats a gross oversimplifcation.
my umbrage is not even with the content of the points (you make some very legitimate points about free agency classes, acknowledged earlier, although my base argument is more than Kobe's inhibiting free agents). Its taking swipes like my opinion on Kobe has no basis because Im not criticizing Lou Williams or aware of Lou Williams stat line on a Kobe thread (actually, my guess is none of us watch every Laker game so these are all casual opinions).
And the selective reading where 'no one has agreed with a point Ive made' and 'I should start a blog' because I cant concede when people make good points . Your clearly smart, but you also have a bone to pick which is coloring your perception of my posts and thats where I take issue.
I enjoy a good debate but I also like to come here and learn and read different perspectives. For example, GiantFilthy made a great point about Henry Abbott I would not have known about and does put the article a posted in a great context. Acknowledged above. As did you. Broken down in detail, Lakers probably did not do too badly avoiding free agents. They have drafted high, and now they have to rebuild this team by acquiring a few more high draft picks.
I have made plenty of concessions to good points you've made and others have made here. I wont bother with the agreement posts but they are up there.
So your latest posts are just petty.
The spirit of my original post was a farewell tour for Kobe is going to be bittersweet. Part of it was a ridiculous last few years here. Put some of that on ownership too.
The logo is part villian and part hero for god sakes.
Cheers, and boos. Had he left three years ago, in spite of his perception/reputation, he probably would have been cheered more than he will be today.
As David in LA said, its a sad way for him to go out. Fortunately, he had a good reception in Philly last night, which is his hometown. If that carries on (though I doubt he gets such treatment in San Antonio, Dallas, Sacramento, Detroit, Oakland and other destinations), I'll be the first to admit Im wrong.
Actually he has generally been booed relentlessly when he came to Philly. But he's been talking about how much he loved growing up here and how he wanted to be a Sixer and blah blah blah. So they gave him a going away solid.
RE: RE: He was always received pretty well in Philly.
Actually he has generally been booed relentlessly when he came to Philly. But he's been talking about how much he loved growing up here and how he wanted to be a Sixer and blah blah blah. So they gave him a going away solid.
Being treated the same as Santa is 'well-received'.
RE: RE: RE: He was always received pretty well in Philly.
In comment 12656389 BrettNYG10 said:
[quote] In comment 12656386 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 12656380 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
I don't expect it much from anywhere else.
Actually he has generally been booed relentlessly when he came to Philly. But he's been talking about how much he loved growing up here and how he wanted to be a Sixer and blah blah blah. So they gave him a going away solid.
Being treated the same as Santa is 'well-received'. [/quote
Brilliant snark.
end of an era for me. Not a huge fan one way of the other, but I'm 26 so really he's been playing my entire adolescence into adulthood.
LeBron
Magic
Bird
Kobe
Big O, Dr. J, and The Logo all have arguments but I'd take Kobe over them.
Not the most efficient scorer ever, but probably the most fun to watch when he was on.
Truly remarkable career.
Quote:
that?????
Brilliant snark.
end of an era for me. Not a huge fan one way of the other, but I'm 26 so really he's been playing my entire adolescence into adulthood.
Oh that activity? Nothing more than a carnival act. Puzzled as to why its followed.
well he deserves it.
very few do... hes one of them. all time great.
First of all, it's not like Kareem was universally loved...
I'm not a fan of Kobe's, but he didn't hamstring anyone. No one put a gun to Mitch Kupchak's head. Extending Kobe, even at that ridiculous salary, served both parties. Kobe got paid, and the Laker's had a built-in attendance draw to help ease the rebuild that they knew they needed. Who didn't they sign due to Kobe's salary?
Do you realize how much of an asshole Jordan was?
first he made the Bulls give him a 1 year max contract every year until he retired...He threatened to sign with the Knicks to get this deal..
In the olympics he played Kukoc so hard because he didnt want him to come over and play for the Bulls becaus ehe didnt want to add anyone to their team...so he played physical defense on him to try and make him think twice about coming over..
Sorry, but showing an indication he needed help to get back to the top would have helped attract talent. And paying Kobe a 'max' salary is still obviously poor use of resources that can be used elsewhere.
Kareem was not universally liked. But Kareem was respected(not considered the 'jerk' or 'ball hog' Kobe often is), and his deferment to Magic showed some hubris. Kobe has not endeared himself to many.
And unlike Jordan, he is far from going out on top. Also, keep in mind with Jordan, the public was really not exposed to the class A asshole he is until after his retirement.
This 'farewell tour' is not going to go particularly well. He will get some applauses, along with boos.
Umm at the same age both were winning Championships...
Jordan retired for ages 35,36,37...Kobe is playing his final year at 37...
4 years ago he was fantastic, and the advanced stats back that up. 3 years ago he blew out his tendon in game 6. Do you really want to blame him for taking a high salary off a great year and then blowing a tendon? So it's really the last 2 years, and last season he didnt have a good sense ex ante that he wouldnt be very good since he was coming back from injury and had previously been super.
Moreover, his 'insistence' on a high salary is a weird place to put them blame. The Lakers didnt have to pay it. Saying his salary held the Lakers back is probably a counterfactual that presumes with no basis that worthwhile UFAs were going to sign there and that Kobe's salary somehow prevented that -- both I think are wrong. Fact is that there is more UFA money in the NBA than there are worthy UFAs. Lakers had enough money to sign Aldridge this offseason, but he went elsewhere (taking him at his word, because of management's pitch). 2 offseasons ago the big UFAs were LeBron and Melo. LeBron was probably only considering 2 teams, and LA could have afforded Melo.
Management probably lied to the fan base a bit. But IMO overpaying Kobe for the last 1-2 seasons probably hasnt held the team back long term at all. It may have even saved the team from passing out long term deals that wouldnt move the needle much.
Regarding Kobe, I have gone back and forth during his career of hating him for being a prick and admiring his work ethic and competitive determination.
Either way, he was an all-time great NBA player and I thought handled well the Jordan shadow cast over him his entire career. Each generation of superstar has to deal with a new and heightened sense of scrutiny from the media and the general public. Jordan never had to deal with the type of 24/7 coverage and paparazzi and social media that Kobe did, and LeBron has had it even worse as his entire career was during the age of social media and smartphones with cameras.
You do realize that Jordan was 34 when he retired with the Bulls....
When Kobe was 33 and 34 he was playing for championships also....
Jordan was a good player for the Wizards. Not MJ of old but still a 20 PER player. At 40. As a SG. It was anything but a farce.
At the time of the signing people in LA questioned if contract was worthwhile. Hindsight is obviously harsher on the contract but it's hardly ridiculous to question signing an aging player (whose per efficiency ratings were very good in 2010 but not in the seasons following playoff exists).
Juergen Klinsmann did the very same thing calling him out.
So any good player playing on a team that does not win a ring is involved in a farce? I'm not following. He loves basketball and was still a good player. I'm not seeing the negative.
Better yet, here is the link to the article:
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11717596/is-kobe-bryant-reason-los-angeles-lakers-downfall
I think the article puts too much on him and not enough on Laker management.
But to my simple point, his perception is not very high. Many laker fans feel he hurt their rebuild efforts and stuck around too long (management should be taken to task--quite frankly they should have given him a one year max salary especially given his injury at the end of 2012 and negotiated with him annually after that). That, and he is easily the most selfish/least efficient of the great players--his shooting percentage is a big indicator of this--will lead to a farewell tour that is not going to be a lovefest.
But why? You're dictating a career arc -- that guys quite on top. As if that is the only arc that makes sense.
Should Jordan have done what he wanted to do? Why is that less valid?
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
If he was less of a dick would Howard have resigned there? Possibly. Im not sure you want Dwight Howard as your best player; but in any event he and Kobe were never a good fit ue to personality issues. If Kobe was 25, I think the free agents would flock there. Kobe won the rings because he is an obsessive weirdo, so to pretend like the obsessiveness on its own is a net negative is unfair IMO.
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
That makes no sense. Teams sign 20 PER players all the time even if they're not in championship contention and even if that player only has a few years left.
You act like MJ was bad then. He wasn't, he was a legit borderline all star caliber player.
If anything, the big deal represents more than the money. It also represents his continued overemphasized importance to the Lakers. Probably the best way for me to have phrased the original post in question.
Forget Howard-they were a bad fit. What about Carmelo or others who could have easily gone to LA? did not play or come from (or even go to) a winning situation?
Was he still a good basketball player? Yes.
Jordan was brought up in reference to Kobe, nygiant16 mentioned Jordan's behavior in a means to justify Kobe's salary and place on the Lakers.
Its a flawed comparision. NBA is very different today, Jordan was playing at a peerless level with the Bulls (Kobe was with plenty of peers when he signed last deal with Lakers), Laker window was already closing with an ultracompetitive Western Conferece etc. etc.
Sad the Lakers, with their history, allowed the same to a much lesser degree obviously. They are bigger than Kobe or any one of many stars that played for them. Underselling their fanbase was a poor move--Lakers fans are pretty smart.
I will say, behaving like an MVP candidate when your skills are not what they used to be will make you a target of derision.
Ill point out Dave Robinson and Kareem Abdul Jabbar as awesome examples of how to age as a player.
As a 39 year old Jordan averaged 20 points on 45% shooting from the wing, 6.1 rebs, 3.8 assists, 1.5 seals, 2.1 TOs. That would have helped a lot of teams. He signed with the Wizards for $1 million because the cut him into management. A ton of teams would have given him $1 million.
Robinson rode off into the sunset playing sheltered minutes next to the best PF I've ever seen. With a hall of fame coach and a 20 year old Parker and a 25 year old Manu. That's not a retirement plan -- it is dumb luck. Similarly Jabbar stuck around in a platoon on a Finals team that had maybe the best PG ever and a bunch of other pieces better than him. Dumb luck again.
My comment about Jordan basically telling the Bulls that he wanted a bunch of 1 year max deals wa my reference to Kobe taking a max deal when he did...
Forget Howard-they were a bad fit. What about Carmelo or others who could have easily gone to LA? did not play or come from (or even go to) a winning situation?
Carmelo considered going. But he stuck around in NY for more money and because he really wanted to win in NY. He stuck around here fore a rebuild.
Who else? If not Carmelo, who was the UFA that Kobe cost? That's my real problem with the Kobe's contract is hurting the Lakers theory. It presumes that the next Shaq was just around the corner. But that's not how UFA is working right now. Players are going into situations with a championship core in place.
Kobe Bryant should have helped a franchise out that has paid him a ridiculous sum of money. Ought. Not must. He did not on multiple levels. His ego much more than his greed hurt him in his final act and the Lakers as well. My opinion. An opinion shared by many.
David, the Lakers are in disarray and Fredo gets a lot of blame, Jeanie Buss should share in it as well.
He would somehow transform this thread into proof the NBA has better athletes, better diversity (and quality humans), and higher ratings and popularity than other sports.
Kobe Bryant should have helped a franchise out that has paid him a ridiculous sum of money. Ought. Not must. He did not on multiple levels. His ego much more than his greed hurt him in his final act and the Lakers as well. My opinion. An opinion shared by many.
David, the Lakers are in disarray and Fredo gets a lot of blame, Jeanie Buss should share in it as well.
So you made a point about Kobe hurting the Lakers for 3-4 seasons by taking a lot of money. I point out that the first of those 4 years he was fantastic, the 2nd he got hurt, and so you're 3-4 is really 2 at most. Moreover, when you look past the hypothetical "cap space" arguments and really think about what they could have done with that money in the interim, the answer is very likely nothing. Carmelo is the name you drop, but that was only ever to come play with Kobe and he decided to stick around in NY for his own reasons (non-winning reasons). And then you say we're millering up the Kobe thread, when this is actually pretty core to the discussion of him retiring. And then you throw in my occupation for no reason.
What a very silly post. I guess anything to not concede that your original premise had flaws.
Fuck off, Kobe - ( New Window )
2012's top free agents were Deron, Eric Gordon, Duncan, KG, Hibbert, and Nash. Lakers ended up getting the last two. I dont see a championship core in there.
2013's top free agents were Dwight and CP3. Then Iguodala and Josh Smith. Maybe you can convince yourself that the Lakers could have signed CP3 and retained Dwight. I cant, and I dont think they get far with that combo.
I dont think Kobe has done anything to get the Lakers closer to a championship in the last 4 or so years. But has he actively hurt them? The only plausible argument to me is that he improved their draft position by playing, except they had the #2 pick last year and the #6 pick the year before.
Teams cycle in and out of contention. Throwing a hissy fit because your team is spinning its wheels for 2 extra years after a decade+ of contention (including lots of titles) I think is shortsighted.
I'm shocked -- SHOCKED! -- that a Magary column featured the word "Fuck" in its headline.
Anyhow, he has certainly hurt his team this year and last year. Hero ball. Bad shot selection. Inhibiting player development. Not just about star free agent signings. Probably 2013-14 campaign as well, honestly id have to look. My original spirit of premise stands to me, we can argue the number of years and the finer points. Sure I may be incorrect in how long he has been an issue.
His belief in his superman status, and his unattractiveness in free agency had an impact.
In fact, announcing the retirement now? Ridiculous. Makes this a lame duck year for a lot of players and the coach. If Lakers are smart, play him 15 a game and move on.
Deadspin is right-he should just quit now. So was dep earlier.
The deadspin article is excellent in capturing a sentiment people have towards him. About this farewell tour. Seems like the contract was an extended farewell thank you gesture to be honest.
Before he stepped on the court that season, in november 2013, the team signed him to a two year, 45+ million dollar contract extension. At advanced age. After an awful injury that he should have rested the entire 13-14 season. Read the article and weep if you are a Laker fan. In fact, NBA rules prevented a player over 36 from a longer extension. Yikes. Who knows what the term would have looked like otherwise.
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/nba/story/_/id/10034589/kobe-bryant-signs-two-year-contract-extension-los-angeles-lakers
So his per rating has been a 10.7 (over 6 games) in 13-14, 17.6 in 14-15, and this year, a 9.9.
Arguably the worst contract extension (other than the Isiah Knick deals-- he paid stiffs like Jerome James)-- in NBA history.
One of the reasons cited for the contract extension by Laker brass was the ability to draw a top free agent as well as building a supporting cast. Carmelo and Lebron were cited. As Nash and Kobe were the only players under contract as LA geared up for a complete overhaul that offseason. That clearly did not go to plan.
Jordan/LeBron >>>> Kobe
Brett is wrong as usual.
Here is a link to an article that describes the conundrum the extension put the Lakers in:
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-true-hollywood-story-of-kobes-crippling-contract/
If Kobe wanted to, I see no reason why he can't make a Paul Pierce like impact in a more limited offensive role. But it would be a joke for him to play in such a manner while getting paid so much money.
I'm a Yanks fan and I do see some parallels with Jeter. Just the way the two of them got hurt and struggled to return. The way they're both going to have a farewell tour. I do think the salary involved makes a big difference but Jeter and Kobe might not be as far apart as you'd think. And as a big Jeter fan and kinda Kobe hater, it does feel weird.
But for all his ego issues, what we've always liked about Kobe is that he had a similar mindset to Jordan. That's what we sometimes kill LeBron for. But that mindset has its downsides too as we saw with Wizards MJ.
Kobe is a legend though. Scariest scorer in league history when he got hot. It's just awesome watching prime Kobe. His monster scoring games were special. And he was an absolute winner, doing it with 2 different rosters. His clutch aura might be a little overrated the same way LeBrons is underrated, but he still had plenty of cold blooded moments. Great player.
To Kobe's credit, he apparently has rejected this style of going away-- he wants no gifts or cheese sentiment. Good call, he was not going to get much love in many stadiums quite frankly.
With this announcement though, they can begin the rebuild unencumbered by obligation. No need to tank a la Philly, feature clarkson and Randle and get some more talented help. They can sign some guys too and the rebuild I think won't be very long--Quality free agents will want the chance to play there and shine with the void Kobe will leave.
Disagree. Which player should have gotten more touches to make the Wizards better?
He makes statements that the Lakers should not make compromises longterm to keep the team competitive, that they should do the best thing for themselves longterm. They he runs out and shoots the ball like its 2005.
Honestly, if he was even having a half decent season, he would explore going to another team to see if he could get a sixth ring next year. Convinced of it. His statements basically implied that this offseason. The whole retire a Laker theme ends up the result but it rang hollow.
Ned In Atlanta : 8:09 am : link : reply
he's hanging it up cause it 'just isn't fun anymore.' Has nothing to do with the fact that he's a terrible player and still by all accounts an awful teammate in spite of his eroding skill set
Yep. His ego just won't let him admit it.
Wait.
Quote from Kobe Bryant way, way back to November of 2015
Shitty teammate Kobe has been a myth since the days of Smush Parker. Being an asshole to Dwight Howard or any player like him that refuses to practice or run called plays doesn't count. The hero ball from age 25 Kobe still exists and shouldn't. The 25-year-old teammate treatment hasn't been around for a long time but those on the outside still run with it.
Kobe's clutchness is overrated, like his defense was in the second half of his career. He also wasn't nearly as efficient offensively as the other greats that are around him in the top 10~20. He was, howevah, the most dangerous offensive threat to ever take the court when he was on and in his prime he was on a fuckin' lot and sports fans are the worst when it comes to downplaying how great a player was once they hang on too long.
Honestly, if he was even having a half decent season, he would explore going to another team to see if he could get a sixth ring next year. Convinced of it.
All part of why his last act is not viewed favorably.
He will be viewed better with history and passing of time. He's catching flak for his less than like able personality and his tiresome final act.
Jordan averaged a 31.7 USG% on a .480 TS% during his final 2 seasons with the Wizards.
AI -- Kobe -- T-Mac -- Old Ass MJ -- Pierce -- Shaq
Those were the Top 6 in USG% during those two seasons. MJ should not have been as involved in the offense as he was with the Wiz. He was strong in the mid-range but his lack of 3pt range and quickness limited his efficiency, which was pretty damn bad at .480 TS% (Antoine "Epitome of Chucker" Walker was at a .479 TS% over these 2 years for perspective).
Being coddled, given special treatment, having a coach who has a hard on for you, that has nothing to do with the ignored fact of how Kobe treats his teammates now compared to his younger years.
Hating on Kobe has always been popular, and there will always be an opportunity to get a soundbite out of a former teammate who had issues with a player like him. It has been clear for more then a decade now that Kobe isn't a guy you want on your team if you a) don't want to put in the work, or b) are a bitch (Howard). There is a common trend with the players who speak up with problems once they are out of town. There was definitely a time where he expected every player to work as hard as he did and that is flat out unfair.
My problem with articles like that is it's always either a quote from a source, an executive from another team that we can't name, or hey look at this example from 12 years ago (Abbott did this), or lets keep going to Smush Fargin' Parker so we can write another story.
Kobe is probably the most loved hated player of our time and this will always be a discussion to have, but articles like that just won't do it for me. To start, being from a writer who years ago had a website solely dedicated to pointing out how much he skews stats and ignores other stats that may be inconvenient in order to write yet another biased article about Kobe doesn't help.
Link - ( New Window )
Regarding his last several years, my issue is he has not evolved from this position. Dwight and Kobe have completely different personalities. So that was not going to work. And to be fair, Dwight should have taken guidance from him and worked to toughen his skin. He did not.
But his current selfishness and inability to take a different role--to me, he is not treating teammates well. If anything, I have no problem with his 'selfishness' when he was not with Shaq or Pau in the middle of the aughts--he justified it with great play and voluminous scoring. When he had legitimate complimentary stars, they were involved. He was a great competitor. No doubt.
The Abbott article can be taken with a grain of salt. The context you shared I did not know so thanks.
I can only assume (hope?) that he is trying to shoot his way out of a funk, but uhh........ well, I got nothing. This year is rough and not the way I wanted him to go out.
I discussed this with a friend who is a big Laker fan. He did mention he agrees Jeanie was as complicit as Jim in the extension as part of the way Lakers did business--the TV deal they have and the appeal of ratings certainly entered the discussion. Hes otherwise echoed all your sentiments--he busted his butt so hard working it was easy to look past the Shaq feud and other items casual/non Laker fans held onto.
If true, well that was dumb. No one expected Kobe to take a Duncan cut or even cut his figure in half but you don't have to go in to the talks with that figure right out the gate!
If false, that brings us back to the coddled player. Management taking the heat for a player who makes them a ton of money. One thing Jeanie has made clear over the years, she loves her some Kobe and would sign him again following this season if needed.
So in a sick way Kobe might be the perfect guy for LA right now.
Can this ownership group deemphasize the 'hollywood' treatment, and start using analyitcs, a strong draft, and less of a star powered approach to win? Will this retirement announcement usher in a change in direction and philosophy? Id treat this as a big opportunity if Im Jeanie and Jim Buss.
He needs to be deemphasized and his minutes limited. Quite frankly he will break anyway if he continues to play a lot of minutes.
Meh. Losing is losing. I'll take losing with exposure to Kobe's A+ approach to prep over Russell chucking the losing off balance jumper instead of Kobe. Why arent you complaining about 29 year old Lou Williams (he of the 3 year contract) playing 25 minutes and shooting 35%? Or Swaggy getting 20 minutes at age 30, shooting 41%? Or Meta at 18 minutes shooting 35%?
Seems to me you just have a bug up your ass about Kobe. You're not the only one, but I think when you look at who else is playing in LA, and what else LA could have done, the Kobe criticism is mostly misplaced. And that's not taking anything away from the fact that he's been really, really bad.
Being an exciting team can start from the coach and the Lakers need to start there.
If this season is a full blown mess and they do score that draft pick, this is still the Lakers and still LA so I think a team of Russell, Randle, Clarkson, #1~3 draft pick and a ton of cap space would be a hot job to have and management could pick from the list of available/college coaches. I've lost trust on them making the right call.
I'd argue developing a new core is important and losing is not just losing. Rebuild losing is different than ego losing in this case.
I'd argue developing a new core is important and losing is not just losing. Rebuild losing is different than ego losing in this case.
If you were unaware of the 65 minutes and 27 FGA those 3 are averaging then you really shouldnt be rendering opinions on whether Kobe is hurting the Lakers by preventing the kids from running the show. Nor have you given a plausible story for which UFAs the Lakers would have been able to sign that would have made things materially better.
The observation that the Lakers suck and Kobe sucks and is expensive, and therefore Kobe is the reason the Lakers suck I think doesnt hold up to much scrutiny.
Being an exciting team can start from the coach and the Lakers need to start there.
If this season is a full blown mess and they do score that draft pick, this is still the Lakers and still LA so I think a team of Russell, Randle, Clarkson, #1~3 draft pick and a ton of cap space would be a hot job to have and management could pick from the list of available/college coaches. I've lost trust on them making the right call.
Your 3 kids are all in the 27-31 minute range. Im not following game by game, but how many more minutes do you expect them to get? Russell is a rookie who has really struggled, and Randle is effectively a rookie. Scott seems terrible, but it's not like these kids are stapled to the bench, and it's also early in the season.
Longer term I think you're right. The 3 kids you have plus a 4/5 at the top of this draft makes you a destination for UFAs in a few years. Not automatically unless two guys team up, since most stud UFAs want to win. The UFA quality is also very poor this offseson, and I think guys like Durant and Horford will take 1+1 deals to get back on the market the next offseason. I could see Batum being the top non-old UFA to switch teams (Conley, DeRozen also in the running).
Earlier, You justified an exorbitant contract extension for Kobe based on incorrect facts. that he got hurt 6 games into a season after signing a lucrative extension. You seemed to justify the extension given his stellar play.
Except, you had the facts wrong. He signed such contract extension after getting seriously hurt during 2012-13. His 13-14 campaign he received the extension, with front office knowing about his torn achilles and before he even recovered and stepped on the floor, they had signed him up to a max contract. David in LA and GiantFilthy have called it a ridiculous contract.
All the players you mentioned, btw, have a better PER Rating than Kobe. None are coddled superstars either.
Perhaps you are the one with no basis in forming any opinion. Just go away.
While ignoring the bigger problem that your thesis that the cap money could have been used elsewhere ignores the fact that there has been shit available on UFA for years, and the star players who WERE moving were not looking to go to rebuilding teams.
So I admit my niggling error (I actually knew he was on year 2 of a 2 year deal, but I'll eat my typo as a mistake). You tell me -- who would the Lakers have signed in the interim if Kobe retired? Specific stars, with a rationale please. When you look at 2014 when he resigned. LeBron? Melo was interested in playing WITH Kobe per reports. Bosh & Wade? Dirk? Bledsoe? Duncan? Lowry? Parsons? Stephenson? Because this all doubles back into my point that you wont engage on -- cap space for bad teams to use in UFA is grossly overrated. Knicks found out this year, when all their targets (Gasol, Aldridge, Monroe, Jordan) were pretty meh on NY's money.
Or you could just tell me to go away. Like a baby.
contract extension. Except its a massive nuance.....the extension in 2013-14 was AFTER the knowledge of the shredded achilles. Seems pretty large in discussing the contract extension justification. I did not want to take it there. You did with your ridiculous post.
Regarding free agent signings, there are any number of free agents or trade prospects that may have wanted to play with Kobe had he shown more hubris and the cap situation and team situation was different. The Lakers were planning on it. It did not even need to be Lebron or Wade. Bosh? Kevin Love? Carmelo may have decided differently. Could Harden have been sent to LA (has an LA connection). We cannot say for sure. And is it a given Lebron could not be swayed? Probably not, but we dont know for sure.
We're going to disagree here. You seem to think that most players didnt want to play with Kobe because Kobe is a dick. But as far as I can tell, lots of players viewed Kobe as a draw, not a detriment, re his attitude and pedigree. You say if Kobe had taken less then they could/would have signed a bunch of guys. Except they've had money for a second max player forever. They absolutely could have afforded Melo (and sought to max him). The could have maxed Aldridge too, and offered. (Love resigned before shopping himself, but maybe that is Kobe's fault too?). And that's a huge hole in your Kobe is hurting the Lakers theory. Your theory would have to be that Melo/LeBron/Love refused to sign in LA over money, even though they could be maxed out, but because they though Kobe should make a lot less and the money should be invested elsewhere. Strikes me as fantasy. There is certainly no evidence of anyone suggesting it.
It's funny, I just re-read this thread and you've gotten almost no one to agree with you on anything. I dont know why it is so hard for you to concede that maybe the Lakers were screwed either way, or that the Kobe is hurting the kids theory (which I dont 100% disagree with!) is at best more of a "Scott is giving 120+ minutes to Kobe, Hibbert, Swaggy, Williams, and MWP even though the team sucks and they have no future" theory. Because it seems really clear that you put out your opinion and then refuse to listen to any competing point of view. Maybe you should start a blog instead of posting on a message board.
Regarding my implied stubbornness, In fact, you must have missed my post where I credit you for pointing out that a free agency signing(s) may have been counterproductive. I don't hold my views sancrosant. You made good points.
my umbrage is not even with the content of the points (you make some very legitimate points about free agency classes, acknowledged earlier, although my base argument is more than Kobe's inhibiting free agents). Its taking swipes like my opinion on Kobe has no basis because Im not criticizing Lou Williams or aware of Lou Williams stat line on a Kobe thread (actually, my guess is none of us watch every Laker game so these are all casual opinions).
And the selective reading where 'no one has agreed with a point Ive made' and 'I should start a blog' because I cant concede when people make good points . Your clearly smart, but you also have a bone to pick which is coloring your perception of my posts and thats where I take issue.
I enjoy a good debate but I also like to come here and learn and read different perspectives. For example, GiantFilthy made a great point about Henry Abbott I would not have known about and does put the article a posted in a great context. Acknowledged above. As did you. Broken down in detail, Lakers probably did not do too badly avoiding free agents. They have drafted high, and now they have to rebuild this team by acquiring a few more high draft picks.
I have made plenty of concessions to good points you've made and others have made here. I wont bother with the agreement posts but they are up there.
So your latest posts are just petty.
The spirit of my original post was a farewell tour for Kobe is going to be bittersweet. Part of it was a ridiculous last few years here. Put some of that on ownership too.
The logo is part villian and part hero for god sakes.
Cheers, and boos. Had he left three years ago, in spite of his perception/reputation, he probably would have been cheered more than he will be today.
As David in LA said, its a sad way for him to go out. Fortunately, he had a good reception in Philly last night, which is his hometown. If that carries on (though I doubt he gets such treatment in San Antonio, Dallas, Sacramento, Detroit, Oakland and other destinations), I'll be the first to admit Im wrong.
Actually he has generally been booed relentlessly when he came to Philly. But he's been talking about how much he loved growing up here and how he wanted to be a Sixer and blah blah blah. So they gave him a going away solid.
Quote:
I don't expect it much from anywhere else.
Actually he has generally been booed relentlessly when he came to Philly. But he's been talking about how much he loved growing up here and how he wanted to be a Sixer and blah blah blah. So they gave him a going away solid.
Being treated the same as Santa is 'well-received'.
[quote] In comment 12656386 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 12656380 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
I don't expect it much from anywhere else.
Actually he has generally been booed relentlessly when he came to Philly. But he's been talking about how much he loved growing up here and how he wanted to be a Sixer and blah blah blah. So they gave him a going away solid.
Being treated the same as Santa is 'well-received'. [/quote
Or San Diego Chargers?